The Case for Eating more Carbs in the Evening

[LQB]

Thanks for that recap, Prodigal Son. I'm going to read both links in their entirety again. One thing I find as a potential problem/obstacle is that so much of the shellfish and fish are contaminated from Fukashima to the BP Gulf disaster toxins to the many decades of mercury and other deadly toxins from industry, etc. contaminating just about all the bodies of water. Are there any ideas about these dangers and how to get the DHA we need without being bombarded with more dangerous toxins?

Besides the bold above, there is the massive chemicals weapons (CW) dumping in the oceans, rivers, etc. See the attached Congressional CRS report for some truly sickening reading. It is likely that what has been admitted to is just a small fraction of what has been dumped. To think that this has negligible effect on the food chain is just delusional.

 

[Chad]

Thanks for that recap, Prodigal Son. I'm going to read both links in their entirety again. One thing I find as a potential problem/obstacle is that so much of the shellfish and fish are contaminated from Fukashima to the BP Gulf disaster toxins to the many decades of mercury and other deadly toxins from industry, etc. contaminating just about all the bodies of water. Are there any ideas about these dangers and how to get the DHA we need without being bombarded with more dangerous toxins?

Besides the bold above, there is the massive chemicals weapons (CW) dumping in the oceans, rivers, etc. See the attached Congressional CRS report for some truly sickening reading. It is likely that what has been admitted to is just a small fraction of what has been dumped. To think that this has negligible effect on the food chain is just delusional.

Just on the above, because i've listened to a few of Dr Kruze's interviews - haven't read his book - he states something like; the redox potential of the individual is more important and that any general pollutants can be dealt with by the body so long as you follow his other guidance - which as has been stated isn't possible for many unless they move to the seaside on the equator, he advises this as the best option, i think.

Anyway, so i had a quick look and found this transcript:

Ben: I got to be honest with you. I actually don’t eat that many oysters because I’m a little bit iffy on them. I’ve seen some articles about potential toxins in shellfish. I’m not quite sure about that so can you help me and listeners allay fears about shellfish?

Dr.Kruse: Well, first you’d have to tell me what toxins you’re talking about. If you’re talking about heavy metals like mercury and arsenic, that should be pretty simple. In the evolutionary package of an oyster is selenium. Selenium is the antidote to those things. The other thing that we just got finished talking about, the detox pathways in the liver –there’s three different pathways all based on P450 system. The higher your redox potential is in your body, the faster you would clear heavy metals. You are designed by lady evolution to clear those metals. So if you’re not clearing those metals, because your redox potential’s low. So if you think eating bananas or figs all day is going to improve your redox potential, you’re sadly mistaken. And the redox potential doesn’t lie just in your mitochondria. It doesn’t lie in the water chemistry of your cell or the bond chemical pathways. It actually lies in the atomic structure- how your cell is organized. It also is –lines every single membrane in your body. So here’s the take home, utilizing that three-legged stool that I mentioned earlier, once your redox potential is really good, you can tolerate most things that this planet can throw at you. Now the things that you may not be able to tolerate are gonna be the manmade things that there are around here. For example, even if you have a good redox potential, if you’re talking about BPA which is an endocrine disruptor that’s a manmade chemical in plastics, then I’m gonna agree with you but the intent of your question I don’t think that’s what you’re getting at. For you to- for those of you who live on the West Coast, you may be talking about the radiation issue from Fukushima.

Ben: Yeah, radiation and we hear about, a lot about wild-caught fish versus farm-raised fish, do the same concerns exist with shellfish?

Dr.Kruse: Not at lot. They do but most shellfish in the United States aren’t farm-raised. In fact oysters, now I’ll tell you, that does vary between locales. From where I am down on the Gulf of Mexico, everything is- nothing is farmed down here. Everything comes right out of the gulf. In fact right now I could go down to the Gulf of Mexico to a shrimp boat and buy shrimp that was alive a couple hours ago. Same thing is true with the oysters. So for me down here, not really a big issue. Now if you happen to live someplace where you don’t have access, yeah, it may be dale or too dale that gets to you, but it’s still a better choice than some of your local food sources. More than likely, yes.

Ben: Yeah, I heard that.

Dr.Kruse: The other thing is that in the West coast where you’re at, people are kinda freaked out a little bit about the radiation risk. I have to tell you the radiation risk is –in far as I’m concerned way overblown. Based on the studies and the testing that’s come out from Noah, the people that really have to worry are the people around Japan. Those are the people that are carrying the major risk plus they happen to eat boatloads of fish. And they also happen to eat predator fishes which are probably the worst type of fish you can eat. So I would tell you if you stay away from the predator fish and in my template the pyramid, the big predator fish like tuna and swordfish are both lower down. Shellfish and crustaceans are really high up on the list for that reason.


Read more http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/02/episode-272-full-transcript/

 

[Regulattor]

Just to throw in my experiences with low carb vs. no carb diet. I am on low carb diet from Spring 2011. and in the beginning it was very challenging, as was for a lot of people here, however with time things improved. Prior to going low carb I was having trouble with seasonal allergies/asthma, sun rushes, even slightly elevated blood pressure. With implementing keto diet my overall health improved to the point I didn't have to use any medications for asthma, although I still get runny nose/rhinitis in the Spring but bronchial spasms did not occur in the last 2-3 seassons.

However staying on the 0 carbs for prolonged time usually made me nervous and gradually I felt loss of energy, especially in the second part of the day. Frequent constipation was also present, which didn't respond to probiotic supplementation. My day usually starts with rich fat breakfast and this really gives me boost, but later as day goes on, mostly in the early afternoon I'm experiencing, well there it is, a carb cravings. I use to fight it with adding more fat, but it didn't solve the problem. Adding too much fat in the afternoon would make me slow and almost always I felt that my digestion couldn't handle extra afternoon fat. So I've started to add in carbs. It was mostly in the form of dark chocolate, but that didn't work also, especially when I've taken it after meal, because chocolate was disrupting or slowing or completely stopping my digestion. The more Cocoa in the chocolate the more trouble digesting food. So instead of going 80%-90% I realized that 60-70% dark chocolate worked better. Cravings were usually gone with 2 or 3 pieces giving total 10-20 grams of carbohydrates. However, when starting keto diet I was measuring my ketones in my blood and consuming 4-5 grams of carbs in single dose kicked me out of ketosis. So that means that when I'm over 10g I'm definitively out of ketosis.

I was always prescribing this to some existing critter that still needs his food, because of this circular pattern that I was noticing. I was thinking that feeding it in the afternoon with glucose it actually needs another ca 24h to the next feeding. But what was curious was the fact that after ingesting this amount of carbs I've experienced less nervousness or tension and restore my energy levels back. So it did raised some question mark for me. I'm still fighting with veggies, sauerkraut is perfectly fine and in daily regimen. But it seams that I'm also having trouble with histamine intolerance, so that I have to count in too. Lettuce and sulphur containing veggies are out, some Mache/corn salad and Watercress are ok.

I'm A+ blood type.

 

[loreta]

Thank you for this new thread. Learning is always fun!

I take some carbs specially for supper but I am always very careful because I have an irritable colon (IBS). So veggies like zucchinis, sweet potatoes, yuca couscous, always very small portions are ok. Sweet potatoes also, but a very small portion. The rest of supper fat and protein. I will try to see if I can eat it something with oat. There is something here in the isles that is named Gofio, usually made from corn or millet, that I can't and not want to eat because they are grains, I will look for oat gofio, maybe there is some.

Thank you!

 

[3DStudent]

I wonder if you could muscle test for how many carbs you need a day? Like have food containing 12g, 25g, and 50g of carbs and see which one is close, and refine from there.

Oats have 50g of net carbs per dry cup it seems. I recall before Life Without Bread when I still ate "safe grains" that I had no issue with oats. And it was a supposedly gluten free brand, Bob's Red Mill.

Nonetheless, I don't think I do too well with a lot of carbs. But I have been including carbs in all meals, so maybe I could limit it to just the evening. I'll sometimes put xytlitol or erythritol on my meat, (I know a little weird), and I don't really measure it. But it's probably a few teaspoons so it's over 15g of carbs. Then I get a few from my stevia and tea I drink twice a day. And a few from herbal supplements like milk thistle, and spices like black pepper and turmeric.

So I think I'll try to move the carbs to later in the evening. Even at 1/4 a cup, oats are still 12.5 carbs. But that's probably what I sometimes sprinkle on food in xylitol.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Mark's Daily Apple has an article up from a couple of weeks ago that has some interesting information regarding carb tolerance and possibly carb need for some:

_http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-definitive-guide-to-using-your-recent-ancestry-to-determine-your-optimal-diet/

Thanks for this Foxx! It explains why way back I could eat tons of carbs, even stuff I was allergic to (tomato), and still not gain weight!
I don't know if it relates to actual saliva production too, but yeah- I always had a lot of saliva.
My whole family has always been thin.

I've started eating some rice with dinner. I just read about white vs brown rice, doh! I have to get some white rice instead.

Like mentioned by others, I too had constipation from low/no carb/high fat. I was thinking it was some sort of infection.


As for Kruse, I have an aversion to him for a few reasons (red flags?).
His interview with Sott radio was cool, he was pretty straightforward and not afraid to throw in cuss words.
However, I felt that he spoke too confident, like he had no doubts at all.
(On the other hand, Laura/etc don't sound like that in interviews even when they have absolute proof!)

I am also picky when it comes to science and when people throw around terms ("creating protons"/etc) without context or explanations.
It reminds me of the free energy inventors who misuse terms, whether it be by mistake or intentional to promote their idea.

However, I'm not a pure skeptic when it comes to alternative science. I do know that some things are outside of what the scientific system wants to examine (and they hide it or throw the baby out with the bathwater).

I've read Laura's, Ark's, and Pierre's (and other books we have read) scientific explanations of very odd things and don't see the similar "bastardization" of the science.
OSIT

Anyone else who feels like Kruse sometimes steps too far? He has some interesting connections, I just feel like "be careful" with what he says.

 

[nicklebleu]

Anyone else who feels like Kruse sometimes steps too far? He has some interesting connections, I just feel like "be careful" with what he says.

I'm a bit with you on that ... he's got it figured out!

Like he talks about quantum mechanics in regards to cell functioning like it's the most obvious thing in the world etc.

And maybe he has it figured out to a large degree, but he comes across a bit like a preacher and is speaking in absolutes. Like Laura said, we need to figure out ways for all of us to get the maximal benefit. I for one would be unable to follow all of Kruse's recommendations, even if I wanted!

I still haven't read his book, maybe that might change my view about him a bit, but his interviews and articles sometimes are totally chaotic, he jumps from one point to the next, and very often it doesn't make any sense to me ...

On another note, I have upped my carb intake too the last two months, with good results. At the moment I am unable to keep a reasonable diet due to travel, but my plan is to continue intermittent fasting and some carbs later in the day, although I often have to eat late due to work requirements.

MY "three-legged stool" is low-carb, intermittent fasting and iodine ... :P

 

[RedFox]

Count me in as another one eating carbs in the evening. I have however started deliberatly eating more - the following may be helpful:

[..]
For those who are taking Niacinamide and having problems with low body temperature, feeling the cold, lack of energy, depression and even dizziness I found the following:
http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/niacin-and-its-effects-on-growth.html

Niacin and its effects on growth hormone, glucagon, cortisol, blood lipids, mental disorders, and fasting glucose levels
[..]
Nobody seems to understand very well how niacin works. This leads to some confusion. Many people think that niacin inhibits the production of VLDL, free fatty acids, and ketones; preventing the use of fat as an energy source. And it does!

So it makes you fat, right?

No, because these effects are temporary, and are followed, often after 3 to 5 hours, by a large increase in circulating growth hormone, cortisol and glucagon. These hormones are associated with (maybe they cause, maybe are caused by) a large increase in free fatty acids and ketones in circulation, but not with an increase in VLDL secretion by the liver. So ketosis is at first inhibited by niacin, and then comes in full force after a few hours.

The decreased VLDL secretion is no surprise, because VLDL is not really needed in large quantities if muscle tissues (including the heart) are being fed what they really like: free fatty acids and ketones. When VLDL particles are secreted by the liver in small numbers, they tend to be large. As they shrink in size after delivering their lipid content to muscle tissues, they become large LDL particles; too large to cross the endothelial gaps and cause plaque formation.

It is as if niacin held you back for a few hours, in terms of fat burning, and then released you with a strong push.

Since niacin does not seem to suppress the secretion of chylomicrons by the intestines, it should be taken with meals. The meals do not necessarily have to have any carbohydrates in them. If you take niacin while fasting, you may feel “funny” and somewhat weak, because of the decrease in VLDL, free fatty acids, and ketones in circulation. These, particularly the free fatty acids and ketones, are important sources of energy in the fasted state.

I've tried larger doses of niacin in the past and ended up going from feeling warm, comfortable and at ease to freezing cold, shivering and on edge - as if I'm sat in a cold shower and can't get out.
So far, it seems I need to eat carbohydrates with the Niacinamide. If not everything crashes, and I drop out of ketosis.
[..]

 

[SeekinTruth]

The thing about Kruse is mainly his style of putting things. I agree that it can be off-putting. I think flame wars started in the paleo/ancentral/keto/low carb communities when Kruse came on the scene several years ago. It was my impression that he made his in-your-face/haughty style even more so because he was getting so much flack. But his blogs were full of useful information, if you could be patient and get through the disorganized structure of his writing style. Furthermore, he seemed to be putting a lot of the pieces of the puzzle together as he was writing it all out on his blog, making it even more jumbled, especially for those who aren't neurosurgeons or other medical doctors (non-mainstream) like him.

I'm sure there are still pieces of the puzzle he's missing, but my overall impression was that he's definitely on to something with many of his ideas. I'm quite convinced about his mixing "quantum" and electromagnetic terminology with biology is valid - even he probably doesn't understand all the connection - but the overall physics concepts must apply to biology as it does everything else (not the standard, accepted science). After all, mainstream, accepted science is about the same as organized religion, particularly cosmology/"astro-science".

I haven't been reading his blog for a couple of years, probably since around 2012, so don't know what's new/what other developments came about. But the upshot seemed to be that he knew what he was talking about and how to fix many peoples problems with his "resets" and "hacks". The big problem with his guidelines, which Prodigal Son summarized very well, for too many people is the shellfish/fish being such a big part of the menu. Getting good quality, clean seafood is and will continue to be an obstacle for too many of us.

I'm going to increase my caviar intake, just need to make sure it has lots of DHA first. My source of that, and also lobsters, crabs, and cray fish (which are not as easily available as the caviar) should be good. It's from a local giant lake (about an hour's drive away), biggest in the country, and biggest at such a high elevation in the world. It's isolated and can't have all that much pollution - it's actually clear blue-green water near the shores where you can see the bottom at the depth of a few meters. I think that should be a solution in boosting my DHA quite a bit.

I started the cold showers again, and seems to be easier to get into it now after starting the iodine therapy, as others had mentioned on the iodine thread. I'm going to try to get my ducks in a row, and do a half to one year experiment of Kruse's recommended program to see how it goes - if I can get pretty much the most important aspects in place.

 

[theos]

The thing about Kruse is mainly his style of putting things. I agree that it can be off-putting. I think flame wars started in the paleo/ancentral/keto/low carb communities when Kruse came on the scene several years ago. It was my impression that he made his in-your-face/haughty style even more so because he was getting so much flack. But his blogs were full of useful information, if you could be patient and get through the disorganized structure of his writing style. Furthermore, he seemed to be putting a lot of the pieces of the puzzle together as he was writing it all out on his blog, making it even more jumbled, especially for those who aren't neurosurgeons or other medical doctors (non-mainstream) like him.

I'm sure there are still pieces of the puzzle he's missing, but my overall impression was that he's definitely on to something with many of his ideas. I'm quite convinced about his mixing "quantum" and electromagnetic terminology with biology is valid - even he probably doesn't understand all the connection - but the overall physics concepts must apply to biology as it does everything else (not the standard, accepted science). After all, mainstream, accepted science is about the same as organized religion, particularly cosmology/"astro-science".

I haven't been reading his blog for a couple of years, probably since around 2012, so don't know what's new/what other developments came about. But the upshot seemed to be that he knew what he was talking about and how to fix many peoples problems with his "resets" and "hacks". The big problem with his guidelines, which Prodigal Son summarized very well, for too many people is the shellfish/fish being such a big part of the menu. Getting good quality, clean seafood is and will continue to be an obstacle for too many of us.

I'm going to increase my caviar intake, just need to make sure it has lots of DHA first. My source of that, and also lobsters, crabs, and cray fish (which are not as easily available as the caviar) should be good. It's from a local giant lake (about an hour's drive away), biggest in the country, and biggest at such a high elevation in the world. It's isolated and can't have all that much pollution - it's actually clear blue-green water near the shores where you can see the bottom at the depth of a few meters. I think that should be a solution in boosting my DHA quite a bit.

I started the cold showers again, and seems to be easier to get into it now after starting the iodine therapy, as others had mentioned on the iodine thread. I'm going to try to get my ducks in a row, and do a half to one year experiment of Kruse's recommended program to see how it goes - if I can get pretty much the most important aspects in place.

Yeah, Kruse can come across as an over-confident know-it-all. However, despite his delivery I think he's on to something and he posts citations to back up what he's saying. The biggest issue is that the information is so incredibly dense it can feel like you're drowning in a sea of information. But I do like his ideas on light, cold and DHA for sure.

As for carbs, I'll be steering clear of the oats. I never liked 'em anyway. I have been falling into eating carbs with dinner but it's still best that my carb intake is rather low. Even at my lowest carb eating times I still had, at the very minimum, mushrooms, onions and xylitol in tea. I've had periods of no carb but not for any extended period. It's too sad and boring to go too long with just meat and fat.

 

[Iosif]

I feel great in total keto, except I become overwhelmingly apathetic. But I am going to see if iodine helps with that.

Me too, I feel great in total Keto but I can eat carbs in the morning without problem (mainly green vegetables, garlic, zucchini, cabbage and onions, alternately).

And also there were days when I felt tired but I solved the problem when I increase considerably the salt intake, you could also try taking it with water

 

[Keyhole]

I still haven't read his book, maybe that might change my view about him a bit, but his interviews and articles sometimes are totally chaotic, he jumps from one point to the next, and very often it doesn't make any sense to me ...

To be honest nicklebleu, I have read his book and it left me feeling like I had not taken much from it at all...

He is indeed quite manic in his writing style and jumps from one point to another whilst presumably under the assumption that the reader is actually understanding what he is speaking about. Some sections of the book are very complex IMO, especially for those of us who are not trained in medicine. And I think this is the main problem with his work - his delivery is not adequately tailored to the average reader. However, I have recently immersed myself in his blog posts, and I have the feeling he is really onto something. From what I can see, he goes far deeper than any other I have personally come across (which makes it a lot of hard work to actually understand) - and isn't afraid to say it either . And if his work is anything to go by, then it would make perfect sense as to why so many people on this forum are having problems with nutritional ketosis.

 

[hiker]

Chris Kresser's position is that low carb diets aren't for everyone:
_http://chriskresser.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-ruining-your-health/
_http://chriskresser.com/the-3-step-process-to-determining-your-ideal-carbohydrate-intake/

<snip>

I'm personally inclined to go with Chris Kresser's take on carbs, since he's worked with people as a health practitioner and specifically with a lot of paleo people doing low carb: that there's an ideal carb level for everyone, which may not be zero, and is influenced by a number of factors and may vary over time.

Thanks for sharing the Chris Kresser links, Foxx.

The latter has quite a handy guideline to determine one’s individual carb intake. I agree, as Kresser works with patients and has clinical experience on the subject, his views should be of value.

I haven’t looked in depth into Kruse’s info myself, but from what I have understood it appears that it is quite tricky to get the conditions right in a ”real life” situation, for the ketogenic diet ”to work”. Perhaps for many people, it would then be more practical to consume carbs in appropriate quantities.

 

[s-kur]

I had no big ussues nor with strict ketogenic, nor with paleo where I consumed ~ 100g carbs a day. The only unclear thing for me with ketogenic diet stays the worst ability to do physical exercies. It seems that just after fitst to sets I'm totally depleted. However I was think it's all about glycogen burning and the keto-things should start to work, but it was not always and often I started to yawn

My recent expirience with hospital's kitchen also showed me that carbogeddon is not fit with my body. That period since I had no other possibilities I had to intake what I've been given and was carb-doomed. There we veggies like potato, whole (wheat) grains, manna and oat. I was convinced that after that small surgery I should somehow support my body and provide any nutrients. The results are (the most vivid for me): sloth, sleepy state and inflammed gums.

I'm still trying to adapt and find my own solution for diet/carbohyfrates, but contrary, carbs at night intake doesn't allow me to fall asleep well. Now I'm rolling around all this Kruse thing and about ihis Leptin Rx and CT protocol. What he says about carbs in the evening is that COLD blocks Agouty hormone and NPY (Neuropeptide Y) that responsible for carbs craving. From my experience it seems that I really should push the food in my stomach after cold affection. His scheme also has a sense where he says that eating 3-4 hours before bedtime provokes insulin spike that bothers leptin's entering the brain=>disrupted melatonin production.

The bottom line is that now I'm practice two-step a day CT (steeping face in cold water in the morning that I try to down 12-16 C with 3-4 sets and breath-ins using IR thermometer and cold shower in the evening) and I should say it makes my mornings and evenings with no carb\sweets cravings among feeling myself better from energy/mood point of view. On contrary, despite of craving absence I feel better while take some carbs at daytime, while on my seat-workplace in front of PC. That provides me sitting activity state, so to speak and I'm not falling asleep :)

Also what he says might help with carbs craving is a MCT-oils. Like coconut and palm-oils.

If you want to dive a bit into simple cyrcadian rhytms thing, you may want to read Cold Thermogenesis #7 in Kruse's blog. Unfortunately I can't provide links at the moment.

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Just to chip in as well. Due to my travel schedule, its been difficult for the last 6 months to go on full keto, hence I've been on Paleo, with some minor carb intake on most days. It is normally a small amount of rice at lunch or dinner, and so far it has been ok. I still eat a lot of fat from eggs, bacon and butter daily. Occasionally I also eat a bit of dark chocolate if there is no meat, fat, and rice to be found - as I avoid bread and other grains. While increasing the carb intake, occasionally I had minor eczema come back (which the keto diet solved earlier), but now with the Iodine it seems to have kept the eczema at bay.

I lost like almost 16kgs going on keto and now with the little carb intake and increased hunger with taking Iodine, I think I put on like 2-3 kgs, and not more. While I know im not fully on ketosis (I didn't test it with ketostix) - this combination of some carbs seems to work fine over the last 6 months - not sure if its ideal. Further with the Iodine, cofactors, saltwater and cold showers, I think it sort of keeps the body functioning well....fwiw