The frustration of friendship

[KTC]

So I am staying with a friend in Australias Capital while we spend the weekend together doing our Reiki 2. What a great weekend we can spend.. until we sit at dinner and start to talk as friends do.
She has recently turned Buddhist so I ask questions. I'm one of those people who isn't easily convinced. i.e. Just because they tell me its a blue bottle doesn't mean it is so. I will turn that bottle upside down before I am convinced that what I am told is what I believe. Is the bottle clear with a blue liquid inside or is it just reflecting the colour of the curtains? Don't tell me what it is.. let me see for myself.
In any case, the talking moves somehow from religion to spirituality to government and my friend informs me that because she lives in the countries Capitol her friends are very well educated and therefor more intelligent than the average Joe... After all many of them work for Government agencies so of course this i so.
To which I comment "then they must realise a wolf in sheeps clothing".. lets talk about climate change. of course a few of her friends are scientists and 'experts' on this. I question where their funding comes from, where their knowledge lays, why they blame ME for Global warming, does she realise that heat precedes cold.. that we are on the verge of Global cooling. I ask her if she and her above average intelligent friends heard about the meteor that skimmed Russia.. Apparently not (they were all conserving energy to save the World by not have TV's).
She called me a conspiracy theorist. I asked her what that meant. She told me she is suffering from anxiety and I have lost my way and Buddhism can help me find it if all I had was love and light. She tells me that good is all and all is good. She told me I am angry and unreasonable.
I think I'm going to vomit. She is so asleep it boils my blood so I change the subject to what we will have for dinner and of course she is vegetarian... take me now, I am done.

 

[Foxx]

Have you had a chance to read In Search of the Miraculous (ISOTM) by Ouspensky and the Cassiopedia entries on Strategic Enclosure and External Consideration?

 

[Mal7]

Goodness me it sounds like you have been trampling on sacred cows left right and centre.

 

[Eboard10]

She told me I am angry and unreasonable.

I think I'm going to vomit. She is so asleep it boils my blood so I change the subject to what we will have for dinner and of course she is vegetarian... take me now, I am done.

Fisheye, looking back at what you wrote, do you think you approached your friends by being externally considerate or were you just trying to impose your ideas on them?

As Foxx said above, I think it would be helpful for you to read Ouspensky's ISOTM. It helped me a lot in dealing with others too.

 

[mcb]

...She called me a conspiracy theorist. I asked her what that meant. She told me she is suffering from anxiety and I have lost my way and Buddhism can help me find it if all I had was love and light. She tells me that good is all and all is good. She told me I am angry and unreasonable.
I think I'm going to vomit. She is so asleep it boils my blood so I change the subject to what we will have for dinner and of course she is vegetarian... take me now, I am done.

Perhaps the response you received reflects how well you were meeting her needs by offering this information in this form.

If the information you receive back is not what you wanted, don't throw up. Learn from it. Learn about yourself.

Why do you suppose you felt angry about some else being "asleep?" She told you that you are angry? Well, it sounds like she got that part right.

 

[cerogers]

Gurdjieff said: “Man is asleep. Man does not have real consciousness or will at all. Man is not free. For man, everything just happens. However, man can become conscious and find man’s real place, as a human being, in creation but this requires a profound inner transformation.” I think in times where we are forced to fight opposing views of our own beliefs is a time where we can find the meaning of our own views and thoughts within ourselves. The reaction shouldn't be angry, but enlightening. This is where we can find ourselves in the moment. Your friend is essentially asleep. But to get angry will not necessarily arouse her from her slumber... some are deeper sleepers, so to speak. The things she said might help you awaken more fully, in the sense that it can provide a stronger conviction and a "inner transformation" of where you want to be. I agree with Eboard10. The question of whether your approach was "externally considerate" is nicely put. So often, we each find ourselves in these situations. How we deal with it within ourselves may help us in our external consideration.

 

[Muxel]

Well, the damage has been done because you were not externally considerate. If you want to save your friendship - and the weekend - I'd suggest something like pretending you've come around to her point of view (save for Diet which you need to weasel out of - tell her you suffer from gluten intolerance?). The idea being that through practicing external consideration, you begin to understand what external consideration is.

It's not impossible for two people with different religions to be friends with each other.

 

[Keit]

She called me a conspiracy theorist. I asked her what that meant. She told me she is suffering from anxiety and I have lost my way and Buddhism can help me find it if all I had was love and light. She tells me that good is all and all is good. She told me I am angry and unreasonable.
I think I'm going to vomit. She is so asleep it boils my blood so I change the subject to what we will have for dinner and of course she is vegetarian... take me now, I am done.

Well, maybe you were angry and unreasonable. There is "good" angry, and there is "bad" angry. The fact is, most of the population is asleep, but it doesn't boil your blood, unless it does, then it is really unhealthy and unnecessary. So, that's the first question to ask yourself, why you are so angry with a person who chooses to live their life as they see fit; why you are taking it personally?

 

[Carl]

Just to add to the above:

Imagine that you had never found this forum, and had happened to choose the love & light, government hugging vegetarian path. What makes you so much better than her, apart from that you stumbled across the truth on your way?

Would you feel anger and contempt for a cat who can't distinguish between a real mouse and a ball of wool? This environment is what it is, and people are who they are. Think about how much you OWE to the Universe for giving you this opportunity, instead of thinking it makes you special.


There is also the question of to what extent you can really have a friendship with somebody like this anymore. I've found keeping friendships open simply for the sake of EC and learning about others is interesting, and you can still enjoy time with people who happen to have less knowledge. Better get used to always consciously playing a role, though.

 

[kenlee]

She called me a conspiracy theorist. I asked her what that meant. She told me she is suffering from anxiety and I have lost my way and Buddhism can help me find it if all I had was love and light. She tells me that good is all and all is good. She told me I am angry and unreasonable.

Here it was probably more about your own ego then anything else. In other words, it doesn't really matter what you were talking about, it could of been anything, but bottom line is that there was part of you that was probably trying to persuade her to your way of thinking and she reacted to that. A good thing to do is read in the book 'In Search Of the Miraculous' what is said about internal and external consideration and ponder continuously on what it means. Then keep that in mind each time you talk with someone and apply those ideas in the moment as best your able. Each time you apply it is a small 'victory.' The moments will add up.

 

[Oxajil]

She has recently turned Buddhist so I ask questions. [...] I'm one of those people who isn't easily convinced.

There's a difference between asking a person questions about their preferences out of sincere curiosity and asking a person such questions just to try and refute their views in response (i.e. "Let's see if she can convince me, and if not, oh boy!"). When you have your mind fixed like that, you stop listening to her, and your focus is more fixed on what you are going to say next. Thus, you stop talking to her ''as a friend would''. That doesn't mean you could've not shared some of your own thoughts on the subject, but a more gentle and sincere approach would've been appropriate than going all berserk on her for the things she ''chose'' to like/do (which happened to be different than what you like/do), especially since you said that she's your friend.

To which I comment "then they must realise a wolf in sheeps clothing".. lets talk about climate change. of course a few of her friends are scientists and 'experts' on this. I question where their funding comes from, where their knowledge lays, why they blame ME for Global warming, does she realise that heat precedes cold.. that we are on the verge of Global cooling. I ask her if she and her above average intelligent friends heard about the meteor that skimmed Russia.. Apparently not (they were all conserving energy to save the World by not have TV's).

I understand your anger towards the system. But it is not appropriate to be expressing that towards her, nor her friends, whom you have never met. Instead of being critical about her and her friends, you could've said, ''Well, you know, I'm really interested in the whole global warming debate, and after having done a lot of research about it, the facts actually point out that there's a global cooling coming around pretty soon, it's pretty interesting when you read articles about it." Thus not putting the emphasis on her friends, or on her (i.e. about how wrong they are) but just simply expressing your own thoughts more generally, without making it personal. Though it depends on the situation what kind of approach is best, but I thought I'd just give an example that may be helpful.

She is so asleep it boils my blood

Well, honestly, and I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh, but considering how you've acted, you may have been quite mechanical and perhaps 'asleep' yourself, not realizing that your acts in that situation were inappropriate.

For what it's worth.

 

[KTC]

oh yes so many things ring true. I know I play a huge role in this conversing.. hence coming to the forum.

I feel I am so in my infancy of learning. I have only just started reading 'Beezlebubs Tales' so I will continue on that path.
I know I am angry and can be very unreasonable.

Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet.

Thank you all for input. I will put ISOTM on my kindle and start it on the bus ride home.

Yes, I have been extremely inconsiderate and showed no external consideration there is no doubt. Anger is something I hold deep inside so probably I am not reading enough of the spiritual books and applying the work to deal with this.

I do my EE and follow the diet but I am very angry with what sometimes feels this burden.

Back to the drawing board, I have much work to do.. and a friendship to nurture.

 

[RflctnOfU]

oh yes so many things ring true. I know I play a huge role in this conversing.. hence coming to the forum.

I feel I am so in my infancy of learning. I have only just started reading 'Beezlebubs Tales' so I will continue on that path.
I know I am angry and can be very unreasonable.

Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet.

Thank you all for input. I will put ISOTM on my kindle and start it on the bus ride home.

Yes, I have been extremely inconsiderate and showed no external consideration there is no doubt. Anger is something I hold deep inside so probably I am not reading enough of the spiritual books and applying the work to deal with this.

I do my EE and follow the diet but I am very angry with what sometimes feels this burden.

Back to the drawing board, I have much work to do.. and a friendship to nurture.

I just wanted to mention a bit of popular wisdom that ESPECIALLY applies to Truth with a capital T: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" or "food only looks good to a hungry man"

My experience travelling along this path to Truth in regards to people around me, tells me that in general, they aren't hungry for truth. Truth brings only 'suffering', as it seems you have experienced. The truth caused suffering for your friend, and the truth about your friend brought you suffering as well.

Just my 2 cents

Kris

 

[Palinurus]

My experience travelling along this path to Truth in regards to people around me, tells me that in general, they aren't hungry for truth. Truth brings only 'suffering', as it seems you have experienced. The truth caused suffering for your friend, and the truth about your friend brought you suffering as well.

This remark of yours got me puzzled, RflctnOfU.

Speaking in general, people first and foremost want reassurance that all is well with the world and also, to be brought back into their comfort zone when things seem to be getting scary, ugly or whatever.
Hence the success of main stream media (religions and science included) which all are incessantly busy providing just that in all shapes and sizes continuously. The main message being, that it's safe to go back to sleep or to keep slumbering despite some uncomfortable distortions here and there.

But my main discomfort stems from your phrase Truth brings only 'suffering'. What happened to the notion The Truth will set you free?

Yes, there will be suffering through cognitive dissonance or whatever when you start to wake up. But you can make that a conscious suffering when you know about its existence and have mastered the way how to try doing that. It's a very productive way to work on the self IMO.

SOTT provides materials to ignite or strengthen this cognitive dissonance on a daily basis and this is done for explicit reasons AFAIK.

So in friendly discussions on whichever topic, it's all about presentation: i.e. allowing your partners to 'get it' on THEIR terms, accommodating and facilitating wherever and whenever you can, but respecting their free will and individual path to objective truth at their own speed and tempo. Just like Laura et al. do for us, really...

It's very difficult to accomplish --I know, been there done that and so on-- but we're here to learn just that, among myriad other things of course. FWIW. ;)

 

[Mal7]

oh yes so many things ring true. I know I play a huge role in this conversing.. hence coming to the forum.

I think coming to the forum was a good idea. As social creatures, it is nice to find other people who share similar interests and beliefs. I also have pretty well nobody outside of the forum who I can talk about all the ideas here with.

Most of my friends it would never occur to me to bring up these ideas with. With them, I am happy enough to do more listening than talking, and take it from there.

After first reading "Secret History of the World", I lent it to a couple of friends who I thought might be sympathetic. The first friend found nothing of much interest in it, thought it was a bit wordy, and didn't really get to the point. This was completely different to my impression of the book. I thought it was packed with interesting ideas leading off in all sorts of directions. So I felt a little disappointed that they hadn't seen anything of interest in it, but we have continued to be amiable friends, and continue to be able to talk about anything that we do have in common (which don't necessarily have to be huge social or metaphysical issues). This friend was someone who was interested in many alternative and "conspiracy" theories (free energy, 9/11, David Icke, Alex Jones), so that in itself does not mean they are open to the ideas discussed in this forum. The second friend just never read it, and I got the book back again a few months later.

These kind of encounters, and the one you had, are, like anything, opportunities to practise and learn.

Just bringing up global cooling or the ketogenic diet with 99% of people is likely to bring up the following kind of response:

"The science is clear, there is no doubt global warming is correct."

or

"Eating fat? That doesn't sound very healthy. If you look at other cultures, the healthiest and longest-lived ones have always been vegetarian. I don't think you are being very scientific."

The more extensive the lies in our culture about science, diet, history, and religion are, the more on-our-own we are in terms of being able to have free social discouse about them. You can feel discouraged about that, or just feel good that the knowledge you have is precious, and stay open to opportunites to share it, while realizing most people do not want to know. (You can still be friends with your dog or cat without your dog or cat having a belief in global cooling, so why not with another person?)