The Gay "Germ" Hypothesis

External consideration is much easier in theory than in practice. I'm like Scottie, I don't want to see a hetero couple making out in public much less a gay couple. The concept of external consideration is brilliant. One takes into consideration the expectations and requirements of another in order to make things easier for them and you. Period.

Internal consideration is blindness and issues from the self importance that justifies it.
 
Heck, if you want an example childbirth is brutal and the idea of bringing a child into this world voluntarily is rather repellent...

I find this deeply concerning. There seems to be a prevailing attitude against humanity in this line of thinking that sends me into a fight or flight state. Not to say you are anti human, but at the end of the day, I can’t say that this perspective promotes the promulgation of our species as we’re naturally or instinctively intended.

I personally find it remarkable that we are equipped with the mechanisms to bring new life into our lives. It presents a meaningful progression of our experience and I don’t see the biological or physical properties of this system with any sense of repulsion.

Do you not sense anything wrong with comparing the graphic nature of birth and the sacrifice of the self to raise a child as a result, with the self gratifying, consequence free impulsiveness involved in sodomy? (omitting spiritual aspects and culminative tissue damage mind you)
 
Cyre is trying to explain that natural "aversion" as a product of our ignorance or "prudishness" regarding the wonderfulness of same sex anal intercourse and what-not, but that won't work, because it is not what IS, sorry.

Mmm no? Is that really what you think I was attempting to do?

I was pointing out that prudishness doesn't aid in the discussion of sexuality in the scientific search for truth. It's also a little silly when heterosexuals comment on gay sex with any authority. It's a bit like a group of men discussing abortion without input from women, or white people discussing racism in America without minorities in the conversation. Not that such things can't be discussed, but rather, wide input from people who are directly involved might just give you a more accurate read on the situation, fwiw.
 
External consideration is much easier in theory than in practice. I'm like Scottie, I don't want to see a hetero couple making out in public much less a gay couple. The concept of external consideration is brilliant. One takes into consideration the expectations and requirements of another in order to make things easier for them and you. Period.

Internal consideration is blindness and issues from the self importance that justifies it.

Well said and a propos.
 
Mmm no? Is that really what you think I was attempting to do?

I was pointing out that prudishness doesn't aid in the discussion of sexuality in the scientific search for truth. It's also a little silly when heterosexuals comment on gay sex with any authority. It's a bit like a group of men discussing abortion without input from women, or white people discussing racism in America without minorities in the conversation. Not that such things can't be discussed, but rather, wide input from people who are directly involved might just give you a more accurate read on the situation, fwiw.

You seem to be repeatedly and consistently missing the crux of the matter. Nobody is "commenting on gay sex" other than to point out 1) some obvious biological facts that make the existence of homosexuality curious, and 2) also reporting on a strong sense of aversion in those who are not homosexual that appears to be instinctual, i.e. hardwired and that is also curious.

Those are the two main topics.

But somehow, you have managed to claim that homosexual sex is perfectly normal and wonderful while the apparently inborn aversion in non-homosexuals is what is abnormal. Your writing comes across as aggressive, defensive, combative and frankly, rude.
 
Regarding the subject of homosexuality, I experience the attraction and aversion more or less simultaneously, and from my perspective this discussion is heading in the right direction overall. Although less common than my heterosexual attractions, I do have an attraction to men who exhibit what I'll call Apollonian characteristics, and there is a sexual response to it. On the same token, I find the subject of anal sex obscene. The reason was perfectly illustrated in this post:
I think that the objective point is that the anus is designed/made/functions as a means of expelling waste from the body; it was never designed/intended to be used sexually.

That's the biological fact.

That makes it unnatural and, for most human beings, repellent. Using a body part in a way that was never intended by Nature can be considered brutal as well no matter how much soap you use.

What is truly bizarre is that men who reject women, seek to emulate heterosexual intercourse utilizing a facsimile.
While I may find the combination of a man's physique, attitudes, and mental landscape attractive, participating in anal sex is tantamount to being a pig wallowing in sh**. It almost seems like a step in devolution. I find the design function hypothesis to explain aversion to be spot on with my self observations. Energetically speaking, if there is to be some sort of spiritual bridge created during sexual activity, my intuitive instinct is that the genitalia must connect in some way in order to complete the circuit. I don't see how this can really occur with anal sex. In my mind this can only be accomplished via some form of frotting, which is still inferior to what heterosexual intercourse offers; it is a weaker connection. While I am open to the idea of homosexuality in principle, on the carnal level it becomes a much more difficult target to hit, and in practice a woman will always have more to offer in this regard. It may indeed be possible to repurpose the anus for some kind of sexual function, however with a little doing you can repurpose an exhaust pipe to cook a potato; it's not necessarily efficient or desirable. If I possessed a body with a variable physicality, I may perhaps engage in homosexual affection, but would only engage in heterosexual penetration. There is something archetypal about the male/female dichotomy which transits all across creation with many manifestations. While at higher levels they may be unified, it is the presence of opposites in a harmonious whole that makes creation "work."

In the same vein, considering all of the bodily fluids, smells, and so forth that go on down there, on the face of it heterosexual sex is kind of gross too. While the penis and vagina were designed to work together, I wonder how often people would actually engage in this experience if they weren't so physiologically drugged to seek it out. If we are going to invoke ideas of intelligent design in this discussion, then I don't think it matters at all to the designers whether sex makes us happy, we find love, or spiritual connection or any of that. 4D STS made their intentions clear in the Bible when they said to marry and reproduce and fill the Earth; i.e. our purpose is to breed and ensure that the slaughterhouse has plenty of business. There may be vestigial functions from a more STO design, i.e. being able to use sex for connection, but this is mostly unnecessary in the new design, and from the 4D STS perspective leaving some hint of them may be useful for obscuring the cold corporate reality behind the primacy of the sexual question. The Cassiopaean session that seems to be the basis for some of this discussion said that it was about power and not sex. In previous sessions it was illustrated how 4D STS uses viral insertions to basically sabotage DNA and ensure the humans "stay in their place." Therefore, I think looking for a "gay germ" is misguided. You will find this or that explanation which explains various cases around the fringes, but if there is such a thing in the main, it is a virus materialized from 4D into the human genome "source code;" a new input to generate a specific output bringing recessive traits into dominance. I think the "gay germ" is a power/dominance virus that makes people more receptive to possessions and "downloads" from the 4D STS realm, with the now perverse behavior of the mainstream LGBT community being one particular facet of the larger program.

As an aside, I do believe gays should have low-key clubs and so forth where they can meet, safe spaces where they don't have to always be gambling on whether their advances will be accepted, just casually ignored, or violently rejected. Since they are such a minority which is generally viewed with revulsion over something so personal as their sexuality, I do understand the amount of pressure that places on one's shoulders and had to be wary of it myself to a mild degree. You're always having to look over your shoulder, searching for some way to reconcile your differentness. However, there is no doubt in my mind that these ostentatious pride displays will only create division, and are intended to engender a culture war which is ultimately being directed by 4D STS as part of the "alien invasion."
 
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External consideration is much easier in theory than in practice. I'm like Scottie, I don't want to see a hetero couple making out in public much less a gay couple. The concept of external consideration is brilliant. One takes into consideration the expectations and requirements of another in order to make things easier for them and you. Period.

Internal consideration is blindness and issues from the self importance that justifies it.

Thanx for bringing it up.

Most people I know don't care what gay people do in their private lives until they try to impose their lifestyle on others. On the other hand, there are those who somehow feel guilty and want to please them for being homosexual.

"There is still another form of considering which can take a great deal of energy from a man. This form starts with a man beginning to think that he is not considering another person enough, that this other person is offended with him for not considering him sufficiently. And he begins to think himself that perhaps he does not think enough about this other, does not pay him enough attention, does not give way to him enough. All this is simply weakness. People are afraid of one another. But this can lead very far. I have seen many such cases. In this way a man can finally lose his balance, if at any time he had any, and begin to perform entirely senseless actions. He gets angry with himself and feels that it is stupid, and he cannot stop, whereas in such cases the whole point is precisely 'not to consider.'
 
If we consider human beings only from a biological perspective, then male homosexual sex is objectively unnatural. But obviously there is more to humans than mere biology, specifically, self-awareness and and free will. Once you add those latter elements, all bets are off and you're in the realm of free will and personal preference and it's myriad forms on this planet, and there is no way to honestly, from a 'big picture' pov, single out homosexual sex for being 'unnatural' and leave it at that.

Consider lesbians. Is the sex they engage in 'unnatural'? Seems to me it's an attempt at bonding and pleasure-giving between two women who are, for whatever reason, attracted to each other. Or consider something less 'crude' like hugging. Embracing another person is a way to show affection, to comfort another. That's natural, right? So two men who do that, and then take the 'bonding' process further into sexual activities, can't really be accused of doing something unnatural from the point of view of 'higher brain' human relationships, it's just abnormal (in the literal sense of that word).

I think the issue that hasn't been addressed here is that, for most people, sex is - especially in the way it is promoted and practiced today - a craving for physicality. In that respect, there is little to separate homosexual sex from heterosexual sex. The only sense in which homosexuality might be open for criticism is that the leading advocates of gay rights tend to promote the crasser physical aspect of sex as a positive thing that should be celebrated. Note also that many 'important people' in the heterosexual community promote and celebrate this type of homosexuality. At the same time, there is a lot of promotion of a crass and very physical and dominating interpretation of heterosexual sex, most notably in the widespread availability of porn.

So at this late stage in this epoch of history, I don't see much to choose between hetero or homo-sexuality in the way that they are presented and promoted in society. As such, I don't see much room for recrimination, except in the sense that homosexuality is being over-promoted to the extent that it may well produce a 'moralistic backlash'.

In the same way that, as a heterosexual, I don't go around promoting or displaying licentious behavior for personal moral reasons AND with an eye to avoiding public ostracization or condemnation at some point in the future, I would hope homosexual members of this forum would have the moral and rational sense to do the same, and see through the manipulation, currently well advanced, that encourages gay people to be 'loud and proud'. I'm not defined by my sexuality, and neither should you be.
 
In reading some posts, it seems that evolution-oriented "survival of the fittest" and the animal reproductive function of sex is given disproportionately more weight than compassionate cooperation and the human bonding function of sex (which seems to be of a higher order than biological reproduction). Such pro-evolution-oriented thinking (e.g. need to reproduce, adaptive role of disgust, tribal need for cohesion, etc.) seems to be at the root of heterosexual peoples' bias that non-heterosexual people (largely viewed as stereotypical effeminate men) are fundamentally defective and inferior--a belief refuted by modern and historical examples (Alexander the Great was hardly a fumbling, hysterical wimp).

It seems that the alleged homosexuality of Alexander the Great is more fairytale than truth. Same for the general assumption that ancient Greece was a gay heaven:
Homosexuality in Ancient Greece - One Big Lie?

You may have heard that homosexuality was celebrated in ancient Greece more than any other place and time. Some scholars have even called ancient Athens a gay paradise, where same-sex romance flourished without discrimination and prejudice. However, sexuality was framed very differently in ancient Greece than it is in the modern Western World.

A Closer Look at Homosexuality in Ancient Greece

In recent years, we have witnessed an undeniable advancement of the LGBT rights through several legal cases and political campaigns. For many years, LGBT people had to remain silent and hide their sexual preference, but that’s not the case anymore. Sociologists suggest that this is nothing but the result of decades of oppression. Like other oppressed minorities, gay people have a reason to voice their hardships and accomplishments. However, violating and altering history in the name of gay pride is not necessary.

One historical situation that is often sourced in the name of gay pride is the ancient Greek society and several ancient Greek historical figures that are falsely portrayed as gay in pop culture. The relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is an example of this. In the Iliad, Homer describes a deep and loving friendship between the two men, but never explicitly casts the two as lovers. Many modern interpreters of the story, however, have felt comfortable with using the characters’ relationship as evidence of gay glorification in ancient Greek literature and culture.

Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, circa 500 BC. From Vulci. (Public Domain)

Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, circa 500 BC. From Vulci. ( Public Domain)
Alexander the Great is another popular example. Even though the available historical sources clearly indicate that the Greek king had different female lovers each night, he is considered the most famous gay man of antiquity, simply because a screenwriter in Hollywood imagined him as one. In reality, Alexander the Great most likely slept with more women than Hugh Hefner! But how did we end up with these false misconceptions about ancient Greek society and homosexuality?

The whole thing officially opened up by Kenneth Dover's work Greek Homosexuality in 1978. Since then, as MacDowell points out , homosexuality in ancient Greece “has been discussed a good deal, mainly from a sociological and anthropological point of view.” However, few mention Athenian laws against homosexuality . It wouldn’t be much of an exaggeration to speculate that a decorated and experienced historian such as Dover avoided this account of the official stance of Athens on homosexuality. Instead, he based his research and conclusions on certain pieces of such art as vase painting and the idealized depiction of homoerotic relationships described briefly by Plato in some of his works.

Pederastic scene: erastes (lover) touching chin and genitals of the eromenos (beloved). Side A of an Attic black-figure neck-amphora, circa 540 BC. (CC BY SA 3.0)

Pederastic scene: erastes (lover) touching chin and genitals of the eromenos (beloved). Side A of an Attic black-figure neck-amphora, c irca 540 BC. ( CC BY SA 3.0)​
Only Seeing Sexuality

There’s no doubt that same-sex activity existed in ancient Greece, just like it always existed in every corner of the planet – in men, women, and even animals. What’s critical to understand though, is that homosexuality never flourished in Greece as so many people falsely believe today. The biggest misconception of all is that there was a term known as “homosexuality.” Contrary to popular belief, the word "homosexual" is a modern invention. It was used for the first time in 1869 by the Hungarian physician Karoly Maria Benkert (1824-1882). As noted in an article on Livius.org: “In ancient Greece, there was not a word to describe homosexual practices: they were simply part of aphrodisia, love, which included men and women alike.”

To put it simply, some Greek men didn’t discriminate when it came to sex - to them any sexual activity was just “sexuality.” Not homosexuality or heterosexuality. They framed it as more on the terms of “giving” and “receiving”. Unless you were a woman, however, it was looked down upon to enjoy receiving. Interestingly, those who enjoyed “receiving” were stigmatized within the Athenian society and were kinaidoi (men who allowed other men to penetrate them). This was a degrading word, suggesting ancient Athens, the so-called open-minded Greek city-state of antiquity, wasn’t gay-friendly at all.

The rest of the ancient Greek city-states would be classified as “macho” societies nowadays, with Sparta being disapproving of men who engaged in homosexual activities. It was a general characteristic of macho societies that being dominant (or “giving”) was noble, while being submissive (“receiving”) was the opposite. For a Corinthian or a Spartan male to deliberately choose a submissive sexual role, he was seen as a type of traitor, one who accepted being ignoble for sexual pleasure, when he could be noble.

‘A spartan woman giving a shield to her son’ (1826) by Jean-Jacques-François Le Barbier. (Public Domain)

‘A spartan woman giving a shield to her son’ (1826) by Jean-Jacques-François Le Barbier. ( Public Domain )
If anything, the ancient Greeks viewed homosexuality as a shameful default by nature. That is why in the entire Hellenic literature of the ancient era, there is not a single description of a homosexual act, whereas there are plenty of heterosexual acts described in detail, with Zeus being one of the most prominent heterosexual alpha males of antiquity.

Greek Philosophy’s Views on Homosexuality

What we learn from Xenophon is that Socrates wasn’t a teacher who took advantage of his younger students as modern pop culture commonly presents. Instead, the legendary philosopher did not allow any physical contact between him and his younger students. According to his teachings , any kind of sexual activity or “other physical contact between a teacher and student were simply unacceptable.”
The most famous student of Socrates, Plato, is another notable ancient Greek whose writings have been totally misunderstood and taken out of context. Indeed, Plato wrote that “the only type of real love is the love between two men”, and he dedicated two of his dialogues to that subject: the Symposium and the Phaedrus. However, the kind of love he meant didn’t include homosexuality or any kind of sexual activity. James Davidson, a professor of ancient history at the University of Warwick, wonders in an article published by The Guardian , how someone like Plato who “worshiped” love between men could at the same time describe sex between men as an “utterly unholy act”. The answer is very simple.

Symposium, Fresco from the Tomb of the Diver. 475 BC. (Public Domain)

Symposium, Fresco from the Tomb of the Diver. 475 BC. ( Public Domain)
The kind of love between two men that Plato described in Symposium focuses on the beauty of the soul above that of the body. As Plato clearly states in his works, the love (or friendship if you prefer) between two men is above the love a man has for a woman, as in most cases this kind of love includes sex. According to Plato, spiritually loving another male highlights the absolute beauty of the soul and is the epitome of selfless love that can be compared only with the love between a parent and his/her child. In other words, Plato worshiped what youngsters would nowadays describe as “bromance,” but he was strictly against what we define today as homosexuality.

Oscar Wilde’s Depiction of a Gay Utopia

Even before Kenneth Dover's controversial book Greek Homosexuality, several people attempted to rewrite history. For all his greatness as a poet and playwright, Oscar Wilde was one such person. In his attempt to defend same-sex love, Wilde created an alternative narrative of history in which homosexual love had blossomed. And he picked ancient Greece as the ideal society to locate his gay utopia.
The famous writer rewrote the history of Greece and offered a gay version of classical antiquity in which his own 19th-century passion joined a continuous tradition that stretched back to the very foundation of European civilization.

Oscar Wilde portrait by Napoleon Sarony. (Public Domain)

Oscar Wilde portrait by Napoleon Sarony. ( Public Domain )
As The Conversation has reported in the past, Wilde’s propagandistic speeches and works were so fierce and inspiring that they were usually “greeted with loud and spontaneous applause from the courtroom’s” galleries he picked to spread his own homosexual fantasies of the past. Despite the bold and elegant language Wilde used in his “gay campaigns”, all contemporary historians agree that very little – if anything – in his speeches were true.

Regardless, the fantasies and imaginative stories of Wilde continued and have been in constant circulation since his time. Wilde’s scenarios have been used repeatedly in the 19th and 20th centuries and keep citing the same straight Greek personalities of the past in order to make a point that never existed. Judging from today’s beliefs and theories of many people around the world about ancient Greece and homosexuality, one could claim that Wilde’s attempt to rewrite the sexual past of Classical Greece was quite successful, even though it is completely untrue.

Were the Ancient Greeks Gay-Friendly After All?

In order to understand how the ancient Greeks viewed sexuality, one has to investigate history with a fair mind. A historian has to control his personal beliefs and sexual preference when he’s conducting historical research. More importantly, the available historical sources that clearly demonstrate the beliefs of a certain culture should never be underestimated or ignored simply because they are not in agreement with our modern-day beliefs and practices.

Dover, for example, wrote a book 40 years ago basing his theories on a few vase painting artifacts from the thousands that have been found throughout the years. Imagine if our descendants judged our culture and society from a Gangsta Rapper’s album cover or a pornographic DVD in a thousand years from now. Would that represent the billions of people today? On the other hand, there are available sources – which Dover and Wilde of course ignored – that give us a clear idea of how the majority of the ancient Greeks felt about romance and sex.

The plot of the famous play Lysistrata by Aristophanes is one of the many examples. In this play, Athenian women choose to withold sex from their husbands in order to compel them to cease war with Sparta. If homosexuality was so widely practised in Athens, such a strategy would be ineffective as they could turn to each other to satisify their desires. But what occurred was that the men gave in quickly and stopped their war because they could not withstand this compulsory abstinence.

Lysistrata, original etching by Frédéric-Auguste Laguillermie, published in Almanach des spectacles, Paris, Jouaust/Librairie des bibliophiles - Flammarion succ. (Public Domain)

Lysistrata, original etching by Frédéric-Auguste Laguillermie, published in Almanach des spectacles, Paris, Jouaust/Librairie des bibliophiles - Flammarion succ. ( Public Domain )
Also it is reported by Persian and Indian historians that the vast majority of Alexander the Great’s men wanted to return back home because they missed their women. Alexander married Roxane in an attempt to encourage them to mix with local women, but most of them not only weren’t gay but had a strong preference for Greek women. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar examples one can use to counter the misrepresentation of homosexuality in ancient Greece.

The Greek attitude to same-sex attraction was not nearly as permissive or free as many have assumed. Investigating the available historical sources that refer to same-sex “romance” amongst the ancient Greeks will help anyone to conclude that there is a huge difference between the actual facts and nostalgia of a desired utopia that never existed. Most of all, it is really dangerous and unethical to fail to differentiate the two.
 
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If I possessed a body with a variable physicality, I may perhaps engage in homosexual affection, but would only engage in heterosexual penetration.

Hmmm... but in that case - given the freedom of variability of physicality (and we presume sexuality) - how could you be sure that your 'hetero' partner was really hetero with respect to you?

31589
 
I also agree with this. The aversion comes because of the heterosexual majority on this planet are forced to accept one deviation among the population as a new normal.

Just to clarify, the aversion thingy isn't a recent, learned response to socio-political trends. It's almost certainly instinctive, which means it's likely 'by design'. This doesn't justify aggression or other anti-social behavior towards homosexual people. But it's important for all to know that, beneath what heterosexual people say they feel about homosexuality, this biological aversion exists. The 'social constructivists' are playing with fire by attempting to stamp out this 'flaw' via education/propaganda...

Straight men’s physiological stress response to seeing two men kissing is the same as seeing maggots

In heterosexual men, pictures of rotting flesh, maggots and spoiled food induce the same physiological stress response as pictures of two men kissing each other. That is the surprising finding that was recently published in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Psychology & Sexuality.

“We originally were interested in understanding the health effects of same-sex vs. mixed-sex public displays of affection (PDAs) for the couples in the relationship,” explained the study’s corresponding author, Karen L. Blair of St. Francis Xavier University.

“However, one of the factors likely to influence how individuals experience PDAs is the reaction that other people have to witnessing PDAs. Consequently, we decided to begin the research by examining whether or not heterosexuals have negative responses to witnessing same-sex PDAs; in particular, we began by examining heterosexual male responses to male same-sex public displays of affection.”

“Participants watched a series of slideshows: male couples kissing, male couples holding hands, mixed-sex couples kissing, mixed-sex couples holding hands, boring images (e.g., paper clips) and disgusting images (maggots),” Blair explained. “In between slide shows, we asked participants questions about their responses to the photos (not yet published) and we also collected saliva samples in order to assess salivary alpha-amylase in response to each slide show (the current paper).”

Measuring levels of salivary alpha-amylase, a digestive enzyme that is associated with stress and is especially responsive to disgust, allowed the researchers to examine the men’s physiological reaction to the photos. The study was based on results from 120 heterosexual men (aged 18 to 45).

“In comparing the salivary alpha-amylase responses of participants to the various slideshows, we found that participants had higher salivary alpha-amylase responses to the images of two men kissing and the disgusting images. In both cases, these responses were significantly different than the responses they had to the neutral stimuli.”

However, Blair warned it was difficult to interpret the finding at this stage.

“It is difficult to specifically state what this means. It could mean that participants found the images of male same-sex couples kissing to be equally disgusting as the disgusting images. It could mean that they had an anxiety response to the male couples kissing and a disgust response to the disgusting images, but that physiologically, we could not tell the difference between these two emotions.”

Previous research has found a strong link between sexual prejudice and the emotion of disgust. For instance, a 2008 study found that individuals who are more easily disgusted are also more likely to make unfavorable moral judgments about gay people.

But it was clear that the physiological reactions in the present study could not be explained by the participants’ sexual prejudices alone.

“What is most important to note is that the responses did not differ as a function of self-reported levels of prejudice or self-reported levels of aggression towards gay men,” Blair explained. “In other words, it was not our highly prejudiced individuals who were experiencing a heightened physiological response to the images of same-sex couples kissing, it was everyone in the sample, even those with very low levels of prejudice.”
 
If we consider human beings only from a biological perspective, then male homosexual sex is objectively unnatural. But obviously there is more to humans than mere biology, specifically, self-awareness and and free will. Once you add those latter elements, all bets are off and you're in the realm of free will and personal preference and it's myriad forms on this planet, and there is no way to honestly, from a 'big picture' pov, single out homosexual sex for being 'unnatural' and leave it at that.

Consider lesbians. Is the sex they engage in 'unnatural'? Seems to me it's an attempt at bonding and pleasure-giving between two women who are, for whatever reason, attracted to each other. Or consider something less 'crude' like hugging. Embracing another person is a way to show affection, to comfort another. That's natural, right? So two men who do that, and then take the 'bonding' process further into sexual activities, can't really be accused of doing something unnatural from the point of view of 'higher brain' human relationships, it's just abnormal (in the literal sense of that word).

I think the issue that hasn't been addressed here is that, for most people, sex is - especially in the way it is promoted and practiced today - a craving for physicality. In that respect, there is little to separate homosexual sex from heterosexual sex. The only sense in which homosexuality might be open for criticism is that the leading advocates of gay rights tend to promote the crasser physical aspect of sex as a positive thing that should be celebrated. Note also that many 'important people' in the heterosexual community promote and celebrate this type of homosexuality. At the same time, there is a lot of promotion of a crass and very physical and dominating interpretation of heterosexual sex, most notably in the widespread availability of porn.

So at this late stage in this epoch of history, I don't see much to choose between hetero or homo-sexuality in the way that they are presented and promoted in society. As such, I don't see much room for recrimination, except in the sense that homosexuality is being over-promoted to the extent that it may well produce a 'moralistic backlash'.

In the same way that, as a heterosexual, I don't go around promoting or displaying licentious behavior for personal moral reasons AND with an eye to avoiding public ostracization or condemnation at some point in the future, I would hope homosexual members of this forum would have the moral and rational sense to do the same, and see through the manipulation, currently well advanced, that encourages gay people to be 'loud and proud'. I'm not defined by my sexuality, and neither should you be.
Joe, thanks for a perfect synthesis and summary of all the good points made on this thread about this complex and important issue!
 
I wonder how often people would actually engage in this experience if they weren't so physiologically drugged to seek it out.

Good point and question.

While at higher levels they may be unified, it is the presence of opposites in a harmonious whole that makes creation "work."

Very true IMO, although there is a lot of work to be done to make oneself fully half of the equation. And I think the obvious riposte from homosexuals would be that you can have two opposites in the same gendered body.

I'm off to listen to some edifying music.

 
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But somehow, you have managed to claim that homosexual sex is perfectly normal and wonderful while the apparently inborn aversion in non-homosexuals is what is abnormal. Your writing comes across as aggressive, defensive, combative and frankly, rude.

Cyre, I think your recent posts here are so full of absurdities, paramoralisms, common sense denial and twisted thinking I don't even know where to start. If gay culture promotes and normalizes this kind of thinking, as it sure seems to do, is it any wonder that people have always tried to restrain this culture from getting a foothold? In fact, I think it would be good for all involved, including gays, if society didn't put up with this kind of bullying, calling people "homophobic" and stuff who simply express common sense and common decency.
 
The way I’m looking at it is not whether something is natural or not. If we were all created, then it’s not so much nature but a design choice to serve a function. Everything is a choice, nature implies autonomy and the universe is conscious so everything is a design choice.

In that view, I think the best question to ask is simply what purpose or function does something serve? Does it harm self or others? Does it get in the way of healthy development and growth? The answer to those questions should indicate what we ought to change or fix, I think.

For both straight and gay people, there are plenty of issues that aren’t simply sexual preference but that piggy back on sexuality. Sexual promiscuity, addictions, power and control games, lack of external consideration and therefore public displays of sexual things, etc. I think some of those things may be more prevalent with gays or straight peeps, but I think it’s still important to differentiate pure sexual attraction from all the other stuff like love, connection, relationships, and the bad stuff I mentioned above.

We are machines. We have so many behaviors whose function is not conducive to growth, regardless of sexuality. So many reasons for why we are machines - childhood imprinting, pathogens, trauma, socialization and brainwashing, limiting beliefs, etc. Those things apply to sexuality and everything else in life. Straight and gay people are sometimes attracted to very specific things - feet, a certain race or body weight or height or hair or whatever, and an infinite number of things. All being an example of programs with a variety of origins.

So to me bottom line is - what purpose/function does a thing serve? What benefits/detriments does it have for our goal, say personal development and conscious control of ourselves and respect and love for others. And then address the things that are detrimental. Which of course does mean understanding their origin.

I think it’s important for this thread to clarify that trying to understand the origin of homosexuality isn’t the same as calling it a “detriment”. Plenty of things can piggy back on it, just as heterosexuality, which ARE detrimental and unhealthy.

I never liked the “natural” vs “unnatural” argument because it doesn’t lead to anything. So many things natural and unnatural are great and terrifying and abhorrent. It’s kinda a moot point in my head. I mean technology isn’t natural yet we take advantage. It can do great and terrible things, like literally anything else depending on application. So that’s why I distill it to the purpose/function question and benefit/detriment in terms of growth. That’s just my take on this thing.

Edit - not that there is any harm to try to understand a phenomenon objectively. Knowledge protects. But it’s also easy for emotions and such to color the endeavor and cause confusion.
 
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