The Lying
- Thread starter Eongar
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Eongar
Dagobah Resident
Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people. I know that may seem obvious, yet I would like to discuss it. It turns out that some people -even I have seen myself on occasion do, so that I realized- when they have certain clashes with another, to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it. Sorry I can not explain better, but I see lying hypocrite that very clearly everywhere lately and I think that humans in the bottom of their "selves" are unsociable. And it's true, if the human could not lie, life would be total chaos. Anyway ...
Buddy
The Living Force
Eongar said:
You mean like a form of propitiation or sycophancy? If so, I have observed this in myself and find it to be rather distasteful...but it's there and part of my Work.
Eongar said:
Gurdjieff seems to think that basically, people are afraid of each other deep down and many of their inner lies are related to this. Another thing I'm working to understand as to how it relates to me because I can feel the truth of it.
paralleloscope
The Living Force
Can you explain this, do you mean a pious attitude when uttered by persons, I looked up the word but cannot really grasp it.Bud said:
Eongar said:
I feel guilty here, it may or may not have included my line above 'no please don't apologize', and that kind perhaps hollow pleasantry. I was feeling bad for making you feeling bad for not feeling able to contribute and of bringing noise, unwittingly having walked into a trap of language problem and my communication skills. I found that like many times, also online, I try to not offend my image, with 'offending' lack of pleasantry. Although in the above situation I thougth it ok to put as there was a language gap which could be unseen with a simple apology.
Bud said:
yes, people are so afraid of being found out (not being STO perhaps), me included aslong as i will be identifying and standing next to the predator, these day I too feel the confines of that and have been thinking of it as a membrane of narcissistic wounding, which is just so elastic. Much better described in 'First initiation' :
Spanish version
Eongar said:
I raise my hand too, a very old and hard to Work program in my case, lately I've tried to control this impulse at the very moment i observe its emergence, though sometimes I've tried to maintain my stance no matter what and turned out in a heated up discussion, that's no good neither, is the other extreme i guess, so maybe the best is to just find a mid point, be aware of the dynamics of a conversation, e.g., to avoid get carried away by our programs, or to know when to stop to avoid detrimental and draining loops IMO.
You know, lately I've had a couple of incidents that i think are related to this topic, I've been practicing the dieting and diet for 7 months or so, and I have share some info about it with my family an friends that are more open, so to speak, or just for them to understand why I'm doing it, for example gluten. But the challenge becomes hard when you are in a social environment, a birthday party for example, with a big cake, and they offer you a piece, for now with some friends and acquaintances i have a way out argument: "I'm allergic/celiac, sorry". With family is a lot easier because they already know, and they does´t even offer me gluten, even if they doesn't really understand, they respect my decision. But this last week i went to visit a cousin and she made a big rainbow cake and she was very excited because it was her first cake :P - she does know that i don't eat gluten - and she offered me a little piece with that expectant/excited expression in her face... I felt obliged to take it, so i ate it, bad decision, was weakness... well - even in the past i wasn't very fan of cakes and related foods - after two hours of conversation my stomach payed the price, a very awful indigestion, accompanied with a feeling of shame and a thought in my head "why the hell did i accepted?". I could't do anything but to tell her the thruth: "you know your cake was very tasty but because i don't ate gluten now i'm paying the consequences", she laugh: "well you just got to say that" and "you can't be so harsh with food and stuff, enjoy life!", and things along that line with that illaruous tone in her voice. Well, i felt kind of stupid and see that that "being obliging/nice" programs is still there lurking in the dark :P, and that theres always a "diplomatic" way out of this kind of "tempting" situations.
Another argument that I've found lately that comes from some people that know that I have a more healthy dieting, is "why are you smoking? that's not healthy!" damn, and sometimes i go with lengthy explanations about tobacco and nicotine and anti-tobacco propaganda - sometimes I see this as a waste of energy because some people have very fixated ideas about smoking, but at least this could trigger the questioning in that respect for some others IMO - some times I only recommend links and info and sometimes I just get a kick in the butt - depends of the people -.
Buddy
The Living Force
Freyr said:
By 'propitiation' I mean an emotional state that could be described as "gift-giving". That attitude and/or behavior that makes you try to do something for, or give something to, someone in order to appease their negative feelings (or what appears to be negative feelings) towards you or prevent them from wanting to punish you. It's done to make the other feel better and improve their attitude towards you, but it doesn't address the issue that led up to that.
It's not the 'gift' that is the important thing - that's just a symbol, it's the emotional state of the 'gift-giver'.
Ex: One could be in propitiation giving flowers to a spouse after an argument or flogging oneself across the back to ward off punishment from some "God" due to having 'sinned'. Does that make sense?
shijing
The Living Force
Eongar said:
Just a note of interest -- I'm reading Darkness Over Tibet by Theodore Illion right now, and the author mentions that he has often observed that arrogance and sheepishness go hand-in-hand. I just read it this afternoon, so this observation immediately jumped out at me, FWIW.
paralleloscope
The Living Force
Thanks Bud, the way I am getting it is, propitation is both the emotional symbol (prop) of amends and a buffer. I have definetly been under this spell when feeling guilty, mainly for not being able to express my feelings and thereby reflect the fault empathicly adequate, then I would compensate by what other means I had.
logos5x5 said:
I think it's very good that you are seeing this in yourself. Next time you are in a similar situation, you may be able to refuse the cake. We are programmed to "be nice", specially to those who don't deserve it. Your cousin was totally rude and ignorant. You tried not to hurt her feelings, and she responded by making fun of you and wanting to teach you to enjoy life? Wow!
These experiences are needed, I think, for us to learn why it's important to say no when something goes against our will. Like Laura says, every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it and going against your will, that kills something in you. And you don't want that to happen!
Oh yeah, I know that one. People are really brainwashed about tobacco. If you see they are not receptive, you can just say that you choose what to put into your body and what not. You can say you are celiac and don't eat wheat, but that you smoke a little bit to relief your stress, or whatever they can accept. As long as they leave you alone, that's fine. At least your family understands!
"Being nice" is also part of lying to oneself. Because it is another face of self-importance. We don't want the image we have of our "nice" selves to be different. But being nice to everyone is harmful to us and other in the end.
If you keep observing it, you will be in control of this program sooner than you think! ;D
Eongar
Dagobah Resident
Ailén said:
These situations are typical. For the cake, is question of saying no and not give one's power - even for a pie - regardless of what others say.
In tobacco, if people ask me why I smoke would answer "Because I want", without explanation to anyone.
In part this is what sinlessness, not to lose energy.
People get where they do not call and does not respect free will and in the most banal things. If you want to smoke, smoke. If you want to eat cake, eat. That's your issue.
Ailén said:
My!, of course not! that's a strong and so true statement, it really leaves you thinking about the implications of giving away your will even if we think that are insignificant events. Thanks for the input Ailén,
Ailén said:
Thanks Ailén, those are very good and useful advises.
Ailén said:
:P I hope so, I'll Work it hard.
Eongar:
Thanks Eongar, a very good reminder.
Eongar
Dagobah Resident
What I will say is just what I've seen in myself and sometimes others, so do not want to generalize.
When a shock fully enters into a human, it can react in a way that not even he expected. This man, however much they know of the existence of a multitude of selves that struggle at every moment the domain of the mind and the existence and therefore knows that this can be overcome, he indulged in self that has emerged before the other no matter the consequences. Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, coming sorrows. One made aware that their mechanical response is not beneficial and has erred, this realization is good at first, but when last time the situation becomes repetitive becoming a constant in life, the inner work is reflected in the state of the person; that moment when one can see for yourself who is doing the same thing before having a knowledge of what goes on inside is the time to know that you are not committed to The Work, that only all that one knows are those wordiness and studied by others and ultimately all the knowledge is useless if it is not implemented.
It said the Taoist Liu I-Ming in his regret Chorus:
"[...] Many practitioners all they do is jump rope, known as a sentence or two zen [or any discipline of knowledge] pretend to be great hermits, having done some self-styled meditation senior scholars . Such people are unsubstantiated, suspect and empty talk only to deceive others, but they deceive themselves.
Which one is willing to wake up and find the true tradition? "
Humility at work is one of the pillars to get started. And the knowledge, if acquired when one is not prepared, it can become vanity, and that, therefore, becomes a lie to oneself and to others.
I posted the text in Spanish, that there be no misunderstanding
Cuando se produce un choque que penetra de lleno en un humano, éste puede llegar a reaccionar de una manera que ni él mismo se podría esperar. Este humano, por mucho que sepa de la existencia de una gran multitud de yoes que pugnan en cada momento por el dominio de la mente y la existencia y que por tanto sabe que eso puede solventarse, se dejará llevar por aquel yo que ha surgido antes que los demás sin importar las consecuencias. Después, cuando este hipotético humano se encuentre más sereno y por tanto menos nublado por la emoción que ha desencadenado una situación concreta, llegan las lamentaciones. Uno toma consciencia de que su reacción mecánica no es beneficiosa y que ha errado; este darse cuenta es bueno en un principio, pero cuando pasado el tiempo la situación se vuelve repetitiva convirtiéndose en una constante en la vida, el trabajo interior se refleja en el estado de la persona; ése momento, cuando uno mismo puede ver que está haciendo lo mismo que antes de tener un conocimiento de lo que ocurre en su interior, es el momento oportuno para saber que no se está comprometido con el Trabajo, que tan sólo todo lo que uno sabe son palabrerías dichas y estudiadas por otros y que, en definitiva, todo el conocimiento adquirido es inútil si no se pone en práctica.
Ya decía el taoísta Liu I- Ming en sus Estribillos de Lamento:
Muchos practicantes lo único que hacen es saltar a la cuerda; en cuanto conocen una o dos frases zen [o de cualquier disciplina del conocimiento] fingen ser grandes eremitas, tras haber hecho un poco de meditación se autodenominan sabios superiores. Ese tipo de personas es insustancial, sospechosa y vacía; solo hablan para engañar a los demás, pero se engañan a sí mismos.
¿Cuál de ellos está deseando despertar y buscar la verdadera tradición?
La humildad en el Trabajo es uno de los pilares básicos para ponerse en marcha. Y el conocimiento, si se ha adquirido cuando uno no está preparado, puede convertirse en vanidad, y eso, por consiguiente, se torna en mentira hacia uno mismo y hacia los demás.
When a shock fully enters into a human, it can react in a way that not even he expected. This man, however much they know of the existence of a multitude of selves that struggle at every moment the domain of the mind and the existence and therefore knows that this can be overcome, he indulged in self that has emerged before the other no matter the consequences. Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, coming sorrows. One made aware that their mechanical response is not beneficial and has erred, this realization is good at first, but when last time the situation becomes repetitive becoming a constant in life, the inner work is reflected in the state of the person; that moment when one can see for yourself who is doing the same thing before having a knowledge of what goes on inside is the time to know that you are not committed to The Work, that only all that one knows are those wordiness and studied by others and ultimately all the knowledge is useless if it is not implemented.
It said the Taoist Liu I-Ming in his regret Chorus:
"[...] Many practitioners all they do is jump rope, known as a sentence or two zen [or any discipline of knowledge] pretend to be great hermits, having done some self-styled meditation senior scholars . Such people are unsubstantiated, suspect and empty talk only to deceive others, but they deceive themselves.
Which one is willing to wake up and find the true tradition? "
Humility at work is one of the pillars to get started. And the knowledge, if acquired when one is not prepared, it can become vanity, and that, therefore, becomes a lie to oneself and to others.
I posted the text in Spanish, that there be no misunderstanding
Cuando se produce un choque que penetra de lleno en un humano, éste puede llegar a reaccionar de una manera que ni él mismo se podría esperar. Este humano, por mucho que sepa de la existencia de una gran multitud de yoes que pugnan en cada momento por el dominio de la mente y la existencia y que por tanto sabe que eso puede solventarse, se dejará llevar por aquel yo que ha surgido antes que los demás sin importar las consecuencias. Después, cuando este hipotético humano se encuentre más sereno y por tanto menos nublado por la emoción que ha desencadenado una situación concreta, llegan las lamentaciones. Uno toma consciencia de que su reacción mecánica no es beneficiosa y que ha errado; este darse cuenta es bueno en un principio, pero cuando pasado el tiempo la situación se vuelve repetitiva convirtiéndose en una constante en la vida, el trabajo interior se refleja en el estado de la persona; ése momento, cuando uno mismo puede ver que está haciendo lo mismo que antes de tener un conocimiento de lo que ocurre en su interior, es el momento oportuno para saber que no se está comprometido con el Trabajo, que tan sólo todo lo que uno sabe son palabrerías dichas y estudiadas por otros y que, en definitiva, todo el conocimiento adquirido es inútil si no se pone en práctica.
Ya decía el taoísta Liu I- Ming en sus Estribillos de Lamento:
Muchos practicantes lo único que hacen es saltar a la cuerda; en cuanto conocen una o dos frases zen [o de cualquier disciplina del conocimiento] fingen ser grandes eremitas, tras haber hecho un poco de meditación se autodenominan sabios superiores. Ese tipo de personas es insustancial, sospechosa y vacía; solo hablan para engañar a los demás, pero se engañan a sí mismos.
¿Cuál de ellos está deseando despertar y buscar la verdadera tradición?
La humildad en el Trabajo es uno de los pilares básicos para ponerse en marcha. Y el conocimiento, si se ha adquirido cuando uno no está preparado, puede convertirse en vanidad, y eso, por consiguiente, se torna en mentira hacia uno mismo y hacia los demás.