The Lying

[Buddy]

...he must not run away. He must defy his fear, and in spite of it he must take the next step in learning, and the next, and the next. He must be fully afraid, and yet he must not stop. That is the rule!

Feel the fear and do it (that which needs to be done for your own growth) anyway!
Thanks for that excerpt, Eongar.

Above all there no sink or surrender.

 

[Smallwood]

I seem to be a hypocrite in some ways. For example... I joined a Facebook group named "Million against MSG", or to that effect, and yet found myself stuffing my face with potato chips soon after. :( Some habits just don't take kindly to being gutted.

 

[Eongar]

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people. I know that may seem obvious, yet I would like to discuss it. It turns out that some people -even I have seen myself on occasion do, so that I realized- when they have certain clashes with another, to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it. Sorry I can not explain better, but I see lying hypocrite that very clearly everywhere lately and I think that humans in the bottom of their "selves" are unsociable. And it's true, if the human could not lie, life would be total chaos. Anyway ...

 

[Buddy]

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people. I know that may seem obvious, yet I would like to discuss it. It turns out that some people -even I have seen myself on occasion do, so that I realized- when they have certain clashes with another, to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it. Sorry I can not explain better...

You mean like a form of propitiation or sycophancy? If so, I have observed this in myself and find it to be rather distasteful...but it's there and part of my Work.

...but I see lying hypocrite that very clearly everywhere lately and I think that humans in the bottom of their "selves" are unsociable. And it's true, if the human could not lie, life would be total chaos. Anyway ...

Gurdjieff seems to think that basically, people are afraid of each other deep down and many of their inner lies are related to this. Another thing I'm working to understand as to how it relates to me because I can feel the truth of it.

 

[Eongar]

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people. I know that may seem obvious, yet I would like to discuss it. It turns out that some people -even I have seen myself on occasion do, so that I realized- when they have certain clashes with another, to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it. Sorry I can not explain better...

You mean like a form of propitiation or sycophancy? If so, I have observed this in myself and find it to be rather distasteful...but it's there and part of my Work.

Yes, I meant.

Gurdjieff seems to think that basically, people are afraid of each other deep down and many of their inner lies are related to this. Another thing I'm working to understand as to how it relates to me because I can feel the truth of it.

That's precisely the problem: no acceptance of failure of Personality. See the truth about yourself can be terrifying.

 

[paralleloscope]

propitiation

Can you explain this, do you mean a pious attitude when uttered by persons, I looked up the word but cannot really grasp it.

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people<[...]to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it

I feel guilty here, it may or may not have included my line above 'no please don't apologize', and that kind perhaps hollow pleasantry. I was feeling bad for making you feeling bad for not feeling able to contribute and of bringing noise, unwittingly having walked into a trap of language problem and my communication skills. I found that like many times, also online, I try to not offend my image, with 'offending' lack of pleasantry. Although in the above situation I thougth it ok to put as there was a language gap which could be unseen with a simple apology.

Gurdjieff seems to think that basically, people are afraid of each other deep down and many of their inner lies are related to this. Another thing I'm working to understand as to how it relates to me because I can feel the truth of it.

yes, people are so afraid of being found out (not being STO perhaps), me included aslong as i will be identifying and standing next to the predator, these day I too feel the confines of that and have been thinking of it as a membrane of narcissistic wounding, which is just so elastic. Much better described in 'First initiation' :

Spanish version

The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self- knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures-talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see-I see myself-by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others-lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions-lies. Your teaching-lies. Your theories, your art-lies. Your social life, your family life-lies. And what you think of yourself-lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.
You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

 

[Luis Miguel]

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people. I know that may seem obvious, yet I would like to discuss it. It turns out that some people -even I have seen myself on occasion do, so that I realized- when they have certain clashes with another, to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it. Sorry I can not explain better...

You mean like a form of propitiation or sycophancy? If so, I have observed this in myself and find it to be rather distasteful...but it's there and part of my Work.

I raise my hand too, a very old and hard to Work program in my case, lately I've tried to control this impulse at the very moment i observe its emergence, though sometimes I've tried to maintain my stance no matter what and turned out in a heated up discussion, that's no good neither, is the other extreme i guess, so maybe the best is to just find a mid point, be aware of the dynamics of a conversation, e.g., to avoid get carried away by our programs, or to know when to stop to avoid detrimental and draining loops IMO.

You know, lately I've had a couple of incidents that i think are related to this topic, I've been practicing the dieting and diet for 7 months or so, and I have share some info about it with my family an friends that are more open, so to speak, or just for them to understand why I'm doing it, for example gluten. But the challenge becomes hard when you are in a social environment, a birthday party for example, with a big cake, and they offer you a piece, for now with some friends and acquaintances i have a way out argument: "I'm allergic/celiac, sorry". With family is a lot easier because they already know, and they does´t even offer me gluten, even if they doesn't really understand, they respect my decision. But this last week i went to visit a cousin and she made a big rainbow cake and she was very excited because it was her first cake :P - she does know that i don't eat gluten - and she offered me a little piece with that expectant/excited expression in her face... I felt obliged to take it, so i ate it, bad decision, was weakness... well - even in the past i wasn't very fan of cakes and related foods - after two hours of conversation my stomach payed the price, a very awful indigestion, accompanied with a feeling of shame and a thought in my head "why the hell did i accepted?". I could't do anything but to tell her the thruth: "you know your cake was very tasty but because i don't ate gluten now i'm paying the consequences", she laugh: "well you just got to say that" and "you can't be so harsh with food and stuff, enjoy life!", and things along that line with that illaruous tone in her voice. Well, i felt kind of stupid and see that that "being obliging/nice" programs is still there lurking in the dark :P, and that theres always a "diplomatic" way out of this kind of "tempting" situations.

Another argument that I've found lately that comes from some people that know that I have a more healthy dieting, is "why are you smoking? that's not healthy!" damn, and sometimes i go with lengthy explanations about tobacco and nicotine and anti-tobacco propaganda - sometimes I see this as a waste of energy because some people have very fixated ideas about smoking, but at least this could trigger the questioning in that respect for some others IMO - some times I only recommend links and info and sometimes I just get a kick in the butt - depends of the people -.

 

[Buddy]

propitiation

Can you explain this, do you mean a pious attitude when uttered by persons, I looked up the word but cannot really grasp it.

By 'propitiation' I mean an emotional state that could be described as "gift-giving". That attitude and/or behavior that makes you try to do something for, or give something to, someone in order to appease their negative feelings (or what appears to be negative feelings) towards you or prevent them from wanting to punish you. It's done to make the other feel better and improve their attitude towards you, but it doesn't address the issue that led up to that.

It's not the 'gift' that is the important thing - that's just a symbol, it's the emotional state of the 'gift-giver'.

Ex: One could be in propitiation giving flowers to a spouse after an argument or flogging oneself across the back to ward off punishment from some "God" due to having 'sinned'. Does that make sense?

 

[shijing]

Speaking of hypocrisy, I recently observed a behavior I've seen several people<[...]to behave properly adopt an attitude of exaggerated kindness, even more than with people who appreciate it

Just a note of interest -- I'm reading Darkness Over Tibet by Theodore Illion right now, and the author mentions that he has often observed that arrogance and sheepishness go hand-in-hand. I just read it this afternoon, so this observation immediately jumped out at me, FWIW.

 

[paralleloscope]

Thanks Bud, the way I am getting it is, propitation is both the emotional symbol (prop) of amends and a buffer. I have definetly been under this spell when feeling guilty, mainly for not being able to express my feelings and thereby reflect the fault empathicly adequate, then I would compensate by what other means I had.

 

[anart]

Just a note of interest -- I'm reading Darkness Over Tibet by Theodore Illion right now,

Fantastic and very important book!

and the author mentions that he has often observed that arrogance and sheepishness go hand-in-hand. I just read it this afternoon, so this observation immediately jumped out at me, FWIW.

Yes, they are two sides of the same coin of inner-considering; self referencing, really. Sheepishness, or even shyness, is as much inner-considering as arrogance.

 

[Chu]

You know, lately I've had a couple of incidents that i think are related to this topic, I've been practicing the dieting and diet for 7 months or so, and I have share some info about it with my family an friends that are more open, so to speak, or just for them to understand why I'm doing it, for example gluten. But the challenge becomes hard when you are in a social environment, a birthday party for example, with a big cake, and they offer you a piece, for now with some friends and acquaintances i have a way out argument: "I'm allergic/celiac, sorry". With family is a lot easier because they already know, and they does´t even offer me gluten, even if they doesn't really understand, they respect my decision. But this last week i went to visit a cousin and she made a big rainbow cake and she was very excited because it was her first cake :P - she does know that i don't eat gluten - and she offered me a little piece with that expectant/excited expression in her face... I felt obliged to take it, so i ate it, bad decision, was weakness... well - even in the past i wasn't very fan of cakes and related foods - after two hours of conversation my stomach payed the price, a very awful indigestion, accompanied with a feeling of shame and a thought in my head "why the hell did i accepted?". I could't do anything but to tell her the thruth: "you know your cake was very tasty but because i don't ate gluten now i'm paying the consequences", she laugh: "well you just got to say that" and "you can't be so harsh with food and stuff, enjoy life!", and things along that line with that illaruous tone in her voice. Well, i felt kind of stupid and see that that "being obliging/nice" programs is still there lurking in the dark :P, and that theres always a "diplomatic" way out of this kind of "tempting" situations.

I think it's very good that you are seeing this in yourself. Next time you are in a similar situation, you may be able to refuse the cake. We are programmed to "be nice", specially to those who don't deserve it. Your cousin was totally rude and ignorant. You tried not to hurt her feelings, and she responded by making fun of you and wanting to teach you to enjoy life? Wow!

These experiences are needed, I think, for us to learn why it's important to say no when something goes against our will. Like Laura says, every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it and going against your will, that kills something in you. And you don't want that to happen!

Another argument that I've found lately that comes from some people that know that I have a more healthy dieting, is "why are you smoking? that's not healthy!" damn, and sometimes i go with lengthy explanations about tobacco and nicotine and anti-tobacco propaganda - sometimes I see this as a waste of energy because some people have very fixated ideas about smoking, but at least this could trigger the questioning in that respect for some others IMO - some times I only recommend links and info and sometimes I just get a kick in the butt - depends of the people -.

Oh yeah, I know that one. People are really brainwashed about tobacco. If you see they are not receptive, you can just say that you choose what to put into your body and what not. You can say you are celiac and don't eat wheat, but that you smoke a little bit to relief your stress, or whatever they can accept. As long as they leave you alone, that's fine. At least your family understands!

"Being nice" is also part of lying to oneself. Because it is another face of self-importance. We don't want the image we have of our "nice" selves to be different. But being nice to everyone is harmful to us and other in the end.

If you keep observing it, you will be in control of this program sooner than you think! ;D

 

[Eongar]

You know, lately I've had a couple of incidents that i think are related to this topic, I've been practicing the dieting and diet for 7 months or so, and I have share some info about it with my family an friends that are more open, so to speak, or just for them to understand why I'm doing it, for example gluten. But the challenge becomes hard when you are in a social environment, a birthday party for example, with a big cake, and they offer you a piece, for now with some friends and acquaintances i have a way out argument: "I'm allergic/celiac, sorry". With family is a lot easier because they already know, and they does´t even offer me gluten, even if they doesn't really understand, they respect my decision. But this last week i went to visit a cousin and she made a big rainbow cake and she was very excited because it was her first cake :P - she does know that i don't eat gluten - and she offered me a little piece with that expectant/excited expression in her face... I felt obliged to take it, so i ate it, bad decision, was weakness... well - even in the past i wasn't very fan of cakes and related foods - after two hours of conversation my stomach payed the price, a very awful indigestion, accompanied with a feeling of shame and a thought in my head "why the hell did i accepted?". I could't do anything but to tell her the thruth: "you know your cake was very tasty but because i don't ate gluten now i'm paying the consequences", she laugh: "well you just got to say that" and "you can't be so harsh with food and stuff, enjoy life!", and things along that line with that illaruous tone in her voice. Well, i felt kind of stupid and see that that "being obliging/nice" programs is still there lurking in the dark :P, and that theres always a "diplomatic" way out of this kind of "tempting" situations.

I think it's very good that you are seeing this in yourself. Next time you are in a similar situation, you may be able to refuse the cake. We are programmed to "be nice", specially to those who don't deserve it. Your cousin was totally rude and ignorant. You tried not to hurt her feelings, and she responded by making fun of you and wanting to teach you to enjoy life? Wow!

These experiences are needed, I think, for us to learn why it's important to say no when something goes against our will. Like Laura says, every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it and going against your will, that kills something in you. And you don't want that to happen!

Another argument that I've found lately that comes from some people that know that I have a more healthy dieting, is "why are you smoking? that's not healthy!" damn, and sometimes i go with lengthy explanations about tobacco and nicotine and anti-tobacco propaganda - sometimes I see this as a waste of energy because some people have very fixated ideas about smoking, but at least this could trigger the questioning in that respect for some others IMO - some times I only recommend links and info and sometimes I just get a kick in the butt - depends of the people -.

Oh yeah, I know that one. People are really brainwashed about tobacco. If you see they are not receptive, you can just say that you choose what to put into your body and what not. You can say you are celiac and don't eat wheat, but that you smoke a little bit to relief your stress, or whatever they can accept. As long as they leave you alone, that's fine. At least your family understands!

"Being nice" is also part of lying to oneself. Because it is another face of self-importance. We don't want the image we have of our "nice" selves to be different. But being nice to everyone is harmful to us and other in the end.

If you keep observing it, you will be in control of this program sooner than you think! ;D

These situations are typical. For the cake, is question of saying no and not give one's power - even for a pie - regardless of what others say.

In tobacco, if people ask me why I smoke would answer "Because I want", without explanation to anyone.

In part this is what sinlessness, not to lose energy.

People get where they do not call and does not respect free will and in the most banal things. If you want to smoke, smoke. If you want to eat cake, eat. That's your issue.

 

[Luis Miguel]

I think it's very good that you are seeing this in yourself. Next time you are in a similar situation, you may be able to refuse the cake. We are programmed to "be nice", specially to those who don't deserve it. Your cousin was totally rude and ignorant. You tried not to hurt her feelings, and she responded by making fun of you and wanting to teach you to enjoy life? Wow!

These experiences are needed, I think, for us to learn why it's important to say no when something goes against our will. Like Laura says, every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it and going against your will, that kills something in you. And you don't want that to happen!

My!, of course not! that's a strong and so true statement, it really leaves you thinking about the implications of giving away your will even if we think that are insignificant events. Thanks for the input Ailén,

Oh yeah, I know that one. People are really brainwashed about tobacco. If you see they are not receptive, you can just say that you choose what to put into your body and what not. You can say you are celiac and don't eat wheat, but that you smoke a little bit to relief your stress, or whatever they can accept. As long as they leave you alone, that's fine. At least your family understands!

"Being nice" is also part of lying to oneself. Because it is another face of self-importance. We don't want the image we have of our "nice" selves to be different. But being nice to everyone is harmful to us and other in the end.

Thanks Ailén, those are very good and useful advises.

If you keep observing it, you will be in control of this program sooner than you think! ;D

:P I hope so, I'll Work it hard.

Eongar:

[...]In part this is what sinlessness, not to lose energy.

Thanks Eongar, a very good reminder.

 

[Eongar]

What I will say is just what I've seen in myself and sometimes others, so do not want to generalize.

When a shock fully enters into a human, it can react in a way that not even he expected. This man, however much they know of the existence of a multitude of selves that struggle at every moment the domain of the mind and the existence and therefore knows that this can be overcome, he indulged in self that has emerged before the other no matter the consequences. Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, coming sorrows. One made aware that their mechanical response is not beneficial and has erred, this realization is good at first, but when last time the situation becomes repetitive becoming a constant in life, the inner work is reflected in the state of the person; that moment when one can see for yourself who is doing the same thing before having a knowledge of what goes on inside is the time to know that you are not committed to The Work, that only all that one knows are those wordiness and studied by others and ultimately all the knowledge is useless if it is not implemented.

It said the Taoist Liu I-Ming in his regret Chorus:
"[...] Many practitioners all they do is jump rope, known as a sentence or two zen [or any discipline of knowledge] pretend to be great hermits, having done some self-styled meditation senior scholars . Such people are unsubstantiated, suspect and empty talk only to deceive others, but they deceive themselves.
Which one is willing to wake up and find the true tradition? "

Humility at work is one of the pillars to get started. And the knowledge, if acquired when one is not prepared, it can become vanity, and that, therefore, becomes a lie to oneself and to others.

I posted the text in Spanish, that there be no misunderstanding
Cuando se produce un choque que penetra de lleno en un humano, éste puede llegar a reaccionar de una manera que ni él mismo se podría esperar. Este humano, por mucho que sepa de la existencia de una gran multitud de yoes que pugnan en cada momento por el dominio de la mente y la existencia y que por tanto sabe que eso puede solventarse, se dejará llevar por aquel yo que ha surgido antes que los demás sin importar las consecuencias. Después, cuando este hipotético humano se encuentre más sereno y por tanto menos nublado por la emoción que ha desencadenado una situación concreta, llegan las lamentaciones. Uno toma consciencia de que su reacción mecánica no es beneficiosa y que ha errado; este darse cuenta es bueno en un principio, pero cuando pasado el tiempo la situación se vuelve repetitiva convirtiéndose en una constante en la vida, el trabajo interior se refleja en el estado de la persona; ése momento, cuando uno mismo puede ver que está haciendo lo mismo que antes de tener un conocimiento de lo que ocurre en su interior, es el momento oportuno para saber que no se está comprometido con el Trabajo, que tan sólo todo lo que uno sabe son palabrerías dichas y estudiadas por otros y que, en definitiva, todo el conocimiento adquirido es inútil si no se pone en práctica.

Ya decía el taoísta Liu I- Ming en sus Estribillos de Lamento:
Muchos practicantes lo único que hacen es saltar a la cuerda; en cuanto conocen una o dos frases zen [o de cualquier disciplina del conocimiento] fingen ser grandes eremitas, tras haber hecho un poco de meditación se autodenominan sabios superiores. Ese tipo de personas es insustancial, sospechosa y vacía; solo hablan para engañar a los demás, pero se engañan a sí mismos.
¿Cuál de ellos está deseando despertar y buscar la verdadera tradición?

La humildad en el Trabajo es uno de los pilares básicos para ponerse en marcha. Y el conocimiento, si se ha adquirido cuando uno no está preparado, puede convertirse en vanidad, y eso, por consiguiente, se torna en mentira hacia uno mismo y hacia los demás.