The Lying

[Gaby]

I edited slightly

When a shock fully enters into a human, it can react in a way that not even he expected. This man, however much they know of the existence of a multitude of selves that struggle at every moment the domain of the mind and the existence and therefore knows that this can be overcome, he will allow to be carried away by that I that has emerged before the other ones no matter the consequences. Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, sorrow comes. One becomes aware that their mechanical response is not beneficial and has erred, this realization is good at first, but when time goes by the situation becomes repetitive becoming a constant in life, the inner work is reflected in the state of the person - that moment when one can see for oneself that one is doing the same thing as previously before having the knowledge of what goes on inside. That is the right time to know that you are not committed to The Work, that only all that one knows are those babblings said and studied by others and ultimately all the knowledge is useless if it is not implemented.

Like the Taoist Liu I-Ming said in his Regret Chorus:

"[...] Many practitioners all they do is jump rope, they know a zen sentence or two [or any discipline of knowledge] they pretend to be great hermits, having done some meditation they call themselves senior wisemen. Such people are unsubstantiated, suspects and empty. They talk only to deceive others, but they deceive themselves.

Which one is willing to wake up and find the true tradition? "

Humility at Work is one of the pillars to get started. And the knowledge, if acquired when one is not prepared, it can become vanity, and that, therefore, becomes a lie to oneself and to others.

 

[Eongar]

Psyche thank you very much. I'm slowly learning English, but certain things do not quite know how to express and I know that can be misinterpreted. Thanks!

 

[Luis Miguel]

What I will say is just what I've seen in myself and sometimes others, so do not want to generalize.

When a shock fully enters into a human, it can react in a way that not even he expected. This man, however much they know of the existence of a multitude of selves that struggle at every moment the domain of the mind and the existence and therefore knows that this can be overcome, he indulged in self that has emerged before the other no matter the consequences. Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, coming sorrows. One made aware that their mechanical response is not beneficial and has erred, this realization is good at first, but when last time the situation becomes repetitive becoming a constant in life, the inner work is reflected in the state of the person; that moment when one can see for yourself who is doing the same thing before having a knowledge of what goes on inside is the time to know that you are not committed to The Work, that only all that one knows are those wordiness and studied by others and ultimately all the knowledge is useless if it is not implemented.

It said the Taoist Liu I-Ming in his regret Chorus:
"[...] Many practitioners all they do is jump rope, known as a sentence or two zen [or any discipline of knowledge] pretend to be great hermits, having done some self-styled meditation senior scholars . Such people are unsubstantiated, suspect and empty talk only to deceive others, but they deceive themselves.
Which one is willing to wake up and find the true tradition? "

Thanks for this excerpt Eongar, very good reminder, something to think about deeply and have in mind always, and very appropriate for what we have been talking. I think that what you shared is related to this:

Chapter XXVIII of the Wave series:

Humility alone is the best guide. This alone will lead the seeker to the Master of Teachers of all secrets. This Master Teacher is the PURE WILL.

This pure will becomes the friend of the highest of knowledge and they enter into a bond of eternal union.

The knowledge of the effects of the Eternal Light of godliness in all created beings is True Magic in Theory.

The conception of this Light, or the transition from the intellect to the will, is True Magic in Practice. [Von Eckarthausen, Magic: The Principles of Higher Knowledge, 1788]

[...]

However, there is a kind of person who has some sort of "inner inclination" for Truth. They are simply unable to accept anything else. They cannot be satisfied until they have peeled the onion to the very core. And these keep their eyes on the goal of Truth.

The seeker of truth continues to gather knowledge in the same way the servants in the Parable of the Talents continued to "invest" their money. Gathering knowledge without prejudice inevitably leads to humility. Humility added to knowledge inevitably leads to self-recognition. And self-recognition becomes the companion that enables a person to navigate the emotions and illusions that seek to distract us and blind us! Finally, self-recognition, which is the ultimate state of Humility, leads us to PURE WILL.

Now, notice, it didn't say STRONG will, just pure. A person's "will to be" is his natural frequency. And, when you marry will to knowledge, you have hope of using the will in a particular way. This Will is the "mustard seed" of the Biblical parable. Again: Will to be, or orientation, is FREQUENCY.

Humility at work is one of the pillars to get started. And the knowledge, if acquired when one is not prepared, it can become vanity, and that, therefore, becomes a lie to oneself and to others.

So true, because, for example, if we use the gathered knowledge - or if is our intention since the beginning - just to boast or to feel smarter than others/superior, or to feel special or for power and control over others/manipulation etc. we are just feeding our STS programs loops, our STS tendency of Self-Love, then what we know is useless for a STO polarization, just useful for a STS polarization. This is related of what G called the "Knowing and the Doing Lines" - I'm guessing the translation here, in Spanish is "La linea del Saber y la linea del Hacer" -. G advised that the two "lines" had to grow in a balanced to avoid any "blockage" or "halt" in the process.

Then, when this hypothetical man is more serene and therefore less clouded by the emotion that has resulted in a specific situation, coming sorrows.

This also reminded me the G metaphor of the Chariot, and how we leave the horses - programs/emotions - take control the vehicle, so to speak, and then when it "crashes" we lament the event, so adequate for what happened with the cake :S.

Thanks again for this Eongar, it really left me thinking, food for the thought indeed.

 

[Jones]

Just wanted to say thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I'm finding it very valuable in my own work and will re-read it often :).

 

[Laura]

There is something important to know about lying and lying to the self and believing the lies of others no matter how sincere they are. I wrote about this in another thread, but it serves well in this one, too.

I've been noticing a LOT of "regular folks" who are only casually interested in "spiritual development" lately mentioning the DMT path as probably the way to go. This is the consequence of this years long propaganda campaign of which people like Graham Hancock and Colin Wilson are participants.

Now, both of them - and many others - come across as being VERY sincere. I keep reiterating that a person can be an "agent" and be the most sincere, well-meaning person on the planet. If they would read my Wave series, they would have read about living examples.

The easiest way to understand this is to watch the movie "Arlington Road"; there you will get a rather graphic lesson in how the sincerest, nicest guy in the world can be used to destroy.

Part of the problem is the way we are inculcated into lies. As Castaneda described it:

'I want to appeal to your analytical mind, ' don Juan said. 'Think for a moment, and tell me how you would explain the contradiction between the intelligence of man the engineer and the stupidity of his systems of beliefs, or the stupidity of his contradictory behavior. Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, and egomaniacal.' (Castaneda, 1998, pp. 213-220)

This is more REAL than most people imagine. These systems of false belief allow our energy of awareness to be eaten constantly. How?

An energy drain can be one's belief in a lie. In other words, if there is someone close who is lying or who is deceived themselves, and you buy into it, you have just connected yourself to the ultimate source of that lie energetically. This can drain your energy, befuddle your mind, and your own psychic energy can be used against you in your own environment.

This is what is happening to so many in the so-called "New Age Movement."

 

[Eongar]

We caught all over the place. Sometimes it seems hopeless. For humans in general the truth is pragmatic. That means you can live what we believe and then some are not. What to believe then? By what criteria?

Indeed I have days when I feel uncomfortable, it's as if he saw the whole theater is almost everything, and theater that's me. And I realize how bad I am, what I'm dysfunctional. The ego, or personality, or whatever you call it ... I am sick of it.

 

[luke wilson]

There is something important to know about lying and lying to the self and believing the lies of others no matter how sincere they are. I wrote about this in another thread, but it serves well in this one, too.

I've been noticing a LOT of "regular folks" who are only casually interested in "spiritual development" lately mentioning the DMT path as probably the way to go. This is the consequence of this years long propaganda campaign of which people like Graham Hancock and Colin Wilson are participants.

Now, both of them - and many others - come across as being VERY sincere. I keep reiterating that a person can be an "agent" and be the most sincere, well-meaning person on the planet. If they would read my Wave series, they would have read about living examples.

The easiest way to understand this is to watch the movie "Arlington Road"; there you will get a rather graphic lesson in how the sincerest, nicest guy in the world can be used to destroy.

Part of the problem is the way we are inculcated into lies. As Castaneda described it:

'I want to appeal to your analytical mind, ' don Juan said. 'Think for a moment, and tell me how you would explain the contradiction between the intelligence of man the engineer and the stupidity of his systems of beliefs, or the stupidity of his contradictory behavior. Sorcerers believe that the predators have given us our systems of beliefs, our ideas of good and evil, our social mores. They are the ones who set up our hopes and expectations and dreams of success or failure. They have given us covetousness, greed and cowardice. It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, and egomaniacal.' (Castaneda, 1998, pp. 213-220)

This is more REAL than most people imagine. These systems of false belief allow our energy of awareness to be eaten constantly. How?

An energy drain can be one's belief in a lie. In other words, if there is someone close who is lying or who is deceived themselves, and you buy into it, you have just connected yourself to the ultimate source of that lie energetically. This can drain your energy, befuddle your mind, and your own psychic energy can be used against you in your own environment.

This is what is happening to so many in the so-called "New Age Movement."

I have a question.

How can someone recognise a lie either from themselves or someone else? How do I know when I lie to myself or when someone is lying to me?

If due to narcisstic wounding or trauma during childhood, one ends up only telling themselves lies about themselves for as long as one can remember to the point where one forgets what is truthful about him/herself then how does one start to recognize and tell apart the lies from truths?? Then how can someone make a measurement to ensure that they are no longer lying to themselves once they reach a point where they think they can tell the difference between the 2? After all, it could be just another lie to oneself that one can tell the difference.

 

[Ca.]

Every war results from the struggle for markets and spheres of influence, and every war is sold to the public by professional liars and totally sincere religious maniacs, as a Holy Crusade to save God and Goodness from Satan and Evil.
Robert Anton Wilson

The world is not fair, and often fools, cowards, liars and the selfish hide in high places.
Bryant H. McGill

While photographs may not lie, liars may photograph.
Lewis Hine

"Cathy's lies were never innocent. Their purpose was to escape punishment, or work, or responsibility, and they were used for profit. Most liars are tripped up either because they forget what they have told or because the lie is suddenly faced with an incontrovertible truth. But Cathy did not forget her lies, and she developed the most effective method of lying. She stayed close enough to the truth so that one could never be sure. She knew two other methods also -- either to interlard her lies with truth or to tell a truth as though it were a lie. If one is accused of a lie and it turns out to be the truth, there is a backlog that will last a long time and protect a number of untruths."
— John Steinbeck (East of Eden)

"Some people, from what I've seen, boo, when they lie, they become very still and centered and their gaze very concentrated and intense. They try to dominate the person they lie to. The person to whom they're lying. Another type becomes fluttery and insubstantial and punctuates his lie with little self-deprecating motions and sounds, as if credulity were the same as pity. Some bury the lie in so many digressions and asides that they like try to slip the lie in there through all the extraneous data like a tiny bug through a windowscreen ... Then there are what I might call your Kamikaze-style liars. These'll tell you a surreal and fundamentally incredible lie, and then pretend a crisis of conscience and retract the original lie, and then offer you the like they really want you to buy instead, so the real lie'll appear a some kind of concession, a settlement with through. That type's mercifully easy to see through ... Or then the type who sort of overelaborates on the lie, buttresses it with rococo formations of detail and amendment, and that's how you can always tell ... So Now I've established a subtype of the over-elaborator type. This is the liar who used to be an over-elaborator and but has somehow snapped to the fact that rococo elaborations give him away every time, so he changes and now lies tersely, sparely, seeming somehow bored, like what he's saying is too obviously true to waste time on.

-Infinite Jest, p775 (Back Bay paperback, 2006)"

 

[vinny]

I have a question.

How can someone recognise a lie either from themselves or someone else? How do I know when I lie to myself or when someone is lying to me?

If due to narcisstic wounding or trauma during childhood, one ends up only telling themselves lies about themselves for as long as one can remember to the point where one forgets what is truthful about him/herself then how does one start to recognize and tell apart the lies from truths?? Then how can someone make a measurement to ensure that they are no longer lying to themselves once they reach a point where they think they can tell the difference between the 2? After all, it could be just another lie to oneself that one can tell the difference.

good question. In the beginning it is hard, and really the only way to start to see it is with the help of the group. Initially, lies that are mirrored back will come as a shock and most likely you won't see them at all - it requires a certain 'leap of faith' to initially accept as true something which your false personality is screaming at you is NOT true. However, once you start 'gathering impressions' by observing yourself over time in conjunction with group feedback you will start to get a feel for the flavour of it - the predator's mind has a certain energy which you will begin to recognise.

and though for a long while you may still lie to yourself frequently, because the false personality is extremely powerful, you will at least see it happening more often and catch it more quickly. In this way you are "tuning your reading instrument". And if you are able to make a stand against those lies, you start to 'starve' your false personality and give the potential 'real' you a chance to begin to grow. I don't know about ever becoming certain of oneself (that would imply total self-mastery), but with continued work the process of self-examination does start to become internalised so that one gradually becomes more 'present', and less mechanical. Once you can begin to do this, you will see the mechanical patterns that have become familiar to you within yourself, are also the same patterns that others manifest, though with variations of course, and it becomes easier to recognise in others too. But always beware - the predator's mind is a tricky trickster, and just when you think you've mastered it there is another, more subtle layer waiting to fool you!

There are some great passages by Castaneda that describe some of this process in quite a graphic way (I think it's in 'The Fire From Within'), see Laura's response above, and also Gurdjieff in 'In Search of the Miraculous' has some good explanations of the process of Working in a group (worth a re-read, even if you've already covered it). There's also this.

 

[Buddy]

I have a question.

How can someone recognise a lie either from themselves or someone else? How do I know when I lie to myself or when someone is lying to me?

Generally speaking, people tend not to like the answer to that question. You could start by assuming that everything you say is a lie, from every point of view. You could question the meanings of the words/phrases you use and the logic that strings them together compared to the observable reality they are meant to describe. You could question the meaning of what you are doing this very instant to see if you are aware of the "why" that goes deep and connects with purpose and intention.

There are so many things you could learn about what you simultaneously know and don't know just by asking "why" to everything. You will also probably realize that there is a part of the mind that is determined to continually make an inner dialog of assertions that is based upon an inner fear that what you think on the surface level might not be so. That is, until you can know the truth and feel it with your whole being.

That's my current understanding, fwiw. :)

 

[Ca.]

This could be a case study to the mixing of truth with lies and lies with the truth, to cover the real agenda yet to be delivered. As the nation teeters on the break of collapse, with so many issues facing the u.s. population and the world. Nothing has changed, and has become even worse, as the tell tale signs of the some of the most recent economic issues, as well environmental disasters, continue to gathering steam. He will continue to lie to cover the money monger's. He talks freedom, but is it tyranny that is really at hand? Political rhetoric.


Rhetoric
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Political rhetoric)
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about the concept of rhetoric in general. For the work by Aristotle, see Rhetoric (Aristotle).

In the Roman Senate, Cicero denounces Catiline.Rhetoric is the art of using language to communicate effectively. It involves three audience appeals: logos, pathos, and ethos, as well as the five canons of rhetoric: invention or discovery, arrangement, style, memory, and delivery. Along with grammar and logic or dialectic, rhetoric is one of the three ancient arts of discourse. From ancient Greece to the late 19th Century, it was a central part of Western education, filling the need to train public speakers and writers to move audiences to action with arguments.[1]

The very act of defining itself has been a central part of rhetoric, appearing among Aristotle's Topics.[2] The word is derived from the Greek ῥητορικός (rhētorikós), "oratorical",[3] from ῥήτωρ (rhḗtōr), "public speaker",[4] related to ῥημα (rhêma), "that which is said or spoken, word, saying",[5] and ultimately derived from the verb ἐρῶ (erô), "to speak, say".[6] In its broadest sense, rhetoric concerns human discourse.[7][8]

Contemporary studies of rhetoric address a more diverse range of domains than was the case in ancient times. While classical rhetoric trained speakers to be effective persuaders in public forums and institutions like courtrooms and assemblies, contemporary rhetoric investigates human discourse writ large. Rhetoricians have studied the discourses of a wide variety of domains, including the natural and social sciences, fine art, religion, journalism, digital media, fiction, history, cartography, and architecture, along with the more traditional domains of politics and the law.[9] Public relations, lobbying, law, marketing, professional and technical writing, and advertising are modern professions that employ rhetorical practitioners.

State Of The Union-Full Speech, January 28, 2010.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9c3WyHz4wk

 

[Eongar]

The same words and phrases that we say are already a hint of programs taught, and in this way, observing and understanding, we can see the false personality. A real example: A person who talks a lot and not just let others talk. Many of the phrases begins, "Listen." This means that I think is in need of being heard and being the center of attention because it really does not feel heard. Here is a program that is a lie own personality, which always tries to reassert itself. With the words and phrases that we say we can see the lie itself. For me, lying to oneself is not only deceived intentionally, he is not seeing the programs you have.

 

[alphonse]

This is more REAL than most people imagine. These systems of false belief allow our energy of awareness to be eaten constantly. How?

An energy drain can be one's belief in a lie. In other words, if there is someone close who is lying or who is deceived themselves, and you buy into it, you have just connected yourself to the ultimate source of that lie energetically. This can drain your energy, befuddle your mind, and your own psychic energy can be used against you in your own environment.

This is what is happening to so many in the so-called "New Age Movement."

When I first read about 'believing lies', in Chapter 63 of the Wave 7 Murdering the Femmine - I was struck by it enormously and thought very seriously about the different areas of my life that I was believing lies, my own and other peoples, especially in my working life ( and daily life too!) My eyes were opened to the fact that I was buying in to "lies" to make things fit properly, to make life easy- I was shocked at the realisation, but also thrilled that I could DO something about it - It was like I was given a new freedom, here is the paragraph that helped me see this -

When you believe a lie, you have allowed the eating of your energy of awareness!
When you do not take the time and trouble to check things out for yourself, to do the research, to compare, to network, to get a consensus you have given away your power. You have failed in the creative act of learning

The hard part for me was recognising the "lies" - I had to challenge many things I thought I believed about myself and who I am. it is a work in progress - and it's not easy!

The extract above is from chapter 63 an excellent chapter, worth reading again and very relevant to this thread I think.

Al

 

[luke wilson]

This issue about what constitues a lie and the truth is centre stage in the state of our world today. Why do politicians lie? Why does everyone accuse them of lying? Maybe to be more accurate they wishful think more than they lie! After all, politicians want there nation or district to prosper or suceed, I dont think they like seeing there constituents suffer.

good question. In the beginning it is hard, and really the only way to start to see it is with the help of the group. Initially, lies that are mirrored back will come as a shock and most likely you won't see them at all - it requires a certain 'leap of faith' to initially accept as true something which your false personality is screaming at you is NOT true. However, once you start 'gathering impressions' by observing yourself over time in conjunction with group feedback you will start to get a feel for the flavour of it - the predator's mind has a certain energy which you will begin to recognise.

and though for a long while you may still lie to yourself frequently, because the false personality is extremely powerful, you will at least see it happening more often and catch it more quickly. In this way you are "tuning your reading instrument". And if you are able to make a stand against those lies, you start to 'starve' your false personality and give the potential 'real' you a chance to begin to grow. I don't know about ever becoming certain of oneself (that would imply total self-mastery), but with continued work the process of self-examination does start to become internalised so that one gradually becomes more 'present', and less mechanical. Once you can begin to do this, you will see the mechanical patterns that have become familiar to you within yourself, are also the same patterns that others manifest, though with variations of course, and it becomes easier to recognise in others too. But always beware - the predator's mind is a tricky trickster, and just when you think you've mastered it there is another, more subtle layer waiting to fool you!

I have had this problem plague my life. Basically I am known as a liar. Nobody in my everyday life believes anything I say because they are all under the impression I lie always constantly. This is something that has followed me all my life, from place to place. I used to think it was just a form of bullying but what I am starting to realise is maybe there is some truth to it. The question I always find coming to my mind, is why should I tell the truth in the cases where I do lie? I will admit, I lie sometimes and of late I have come to realise why sometimes a lie can just come out of my mouth with the most little amount of effort. I have come up with acouple of reasons why, firstly it is due to my upbringing, where lies were used by those around me as a means of protection, where someone feels like they have an idea or something worth protecting and they do this through lies. Secondly is fear, where one lies to other people because they fear that the truth will make them look bad. 3rdly for me, is as a means of protection. Why go around telling everyone the truth in everything?? Some people just take advantage and use information that you gave them against you in the future. The problem that I find, is in dealing with people who lie constantly, sometimes without even using words, just by there deeds, who in turn partake in accusing me of lying?? It is like a game of who is the best at lying? It is almost like there is no value on truth anymore, everything is started on a lie, some relationships start based on lies, friendships based on lies, career decisions based on lies, life goals based on lies. I mean, really, the question I find asking myself is not who is lying, but who isnt lying and it's very very hard to tell.

For me personally, I find that ontop of lying to other people constantly, I also fall prey to assuming things about others constantly and I live and base my relationships on these lies and assumptions. Infact I'd go as far as saying, until recently, all my relationships in my life were based on lies and assumptions. That is including my relationship with my parents also. Ontop of attempting to deal with my problems of lying to other people, I want to know, how does one not make assumptions about others?? I have found that making assumptions about others and letting this assumptions influence how one relates with other people has a tendency to limit the nature of relationship and what one has to gain from other people. However, all my life, especially being a kid, and going to private schools where people were rich as hell and my background wasnt exactly made of money, one had to lie to fit in every now and again, because believe me, kids can pick holes and rip you apart! So this has carried through and I find whenever I meet someone, I make a million of subconscious assumptions in my head about them based, on how they dress, how they talk, how they act, who there friends with and all this other things. So in simple terms I see everything else apart from the soul of the person and thus make a superficial connection with them rather than a deeper honest connection of who they really are. An example of an area where this has shown in my life is with my relationship with girls. For the life of me, I just cant stop making assumptions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Anyways on the subject about spotting lies to oneself. I suppose what one has to do is constant self-examination and one has to develop a state of honesty with oneself. One has to conquer the fear of knowing the truth about oneself.

 

[Al Today]

I want to know, how does one not make assumptions about others??

Luke, I have a problem in being too simplistic. Perhaps to begin with is to not concern yourself about others until you know yourself. My experience is as I learn of myself, I am able recognize others. Do you know when you lie? Maybe start there. I was taught to think before I speak. This took and still takes practice.