The Matrix

mkrnhr

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
When I saw the trilogy (only once) that was what I suspected, that it was an artificial world within an artificial world, i.e. different layers of the matrix, like when one wakes up from a dream to find oneself still in another dream. The movie "existenze" had a more explicit setup, where the question of "what if the programmers are programmed" is more explicit.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Divide By Zero said:
I recently saw 2 interesting movies that question some things from the Matrix!
Both have very good points! My favorite is this one:
Film Theory: The Matrix has NO ESCAPE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSVlOAocn8E


Film Theory: Neo ISN'T The One in The Matrix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkMU1mKdwPI

From the guy that brought us gamefoolery, where sometimes you just want to play a game with a friend and troll them until they rage-quit in front of a live audience. Cute.

Interesting theory, though, involving the Matrix franchise. How else to explain the anamolies? Thanks for posting! :)
 

placematt

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Buddy said:
Divide By Zero said:
I recently saw 2 interesting movies that question some things from the Matrix!
Both have very good points! My favorite is this one:
Film Theory: The Matrix has NO ESCAPE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSVlOAocn8E


Film Theory: Neo ISN'T The One in The Matrix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkMU1mKdwPI

From the guy that brought us gamefoolery, where sometimes you just want to play a game with a friend and troll them until they rage-quit in front of a live audience. Cute.

Interesting theory, though, involving the Matrix franchise. How else to explain the anamolies? Thanks for posting! :)

Buddy, that was so incredibly interesting. Great to change the perception and to see how it can be taken ther ways. Appreciate the share!! so very interesting :)
 

findit

Jedi
That was fun to watch. Never looked at it that way before, but the guy does have some good points. I guess it all depends on your perspective. Have to watch the movies again. Thanks Buddy for sharing!
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
The bit about the other 'One', the agent, Mr Smith?, was interesting and fits the STS/STO equation, one needs the other to exist and grow, learn... as grist for the mill or friction, catalyst etc. The rest is obvious I thought, as in the second, the guy in charge of the program tells Neo this whole bit and how many times it's repeated etc. What I thought interesting, is that Neo chooses not to tell anyone else. He could have told Morpheus and the crew what happened, what was said and that it's all another program within the main program, within the Matrix.... but he doesn't, perhaps due to confusion about what is real or not real within his own mind? Confusion as part of the containment programming for those that choose the other path? It isn't explained in the film series, same as with most projects... the creators flirt with the esoteric, they never dive deep enough in understanding it to put it in their work properly. Isn't this the same with most of this duo's work and others in scifi?

Someone mentioned the earlier German miniseries that was the same and done a decade or two before.... but the W. duo 'borrowed' from everyone, so it's hard for anyone to sue them. ;)
Others seem to be utilizing the same source material or thought stream... Tron was a good one mentioned in that Youtube vid, a little ahead of its time, but 'cool'.. only the insertion into the program was a wee bit unbelievable, but it seems to have ended like that German 2part miniseries... they get out of the program, back into what is thought to be 'reality'... sort of like fighting addiction or social programs, or any programming for that matter.... same historical battle in a different form, one for the current age of expression. Imagine it without the special effects in the fight scenes, the matrix would have been more like Dark City.... or that miniseries. The message always needs to adapt to its environment, its locale.
 

BHelmet

Dagobah Resident
Super Duper thread.

I am noticing a lot of assumptions and irony as well. e.g. That the Oracle was somehow real while at the same time a part of the matrix program (unreal). And that the W's were actually trying to say something cohesive and empowering. (assuming it is they who were actually the ones responsible for the contents of the movies.) And the assumption that there is a strong parallel between the ideas expressed in the Matrix movies and those ideas about reality expressed by the C's, and the 4th way around here.

The irony, to me, is to see all the energy and focus being spent on these movies as though they were real, but they are, after all, Hollywood creations. My own assumption is that Hollywood ALWAYS has an agenda, no matter how "truthful" a movie might seem. What is Hollywood about? Creating illusions. And delivering subliminal messages.

Speaking of creating illusory reality, here is a little history lesson/clue that relates: ...According to Mr. Suskind, "The aide (Karl Rove?) said that guys like me (Suskind) were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' " The aide told Mr. Suskind, "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

If I recall correctly, he went on to say that while people in the reality-based community are looking for answers and trying to react to the reality that the empire has created, a new reality has already been created making the previous one irrelevant - something to the effect that those looking for truth are always a step behind and will never catch up as they follow the bread crumbs down the rabbit hole.

As for the matrix - what is being discussed here? A phantasm, a MOVIE - albeit one with some resemblances and parallels to the deeper reality. But why look to a movie for explanations and insights of reality when the movie is actually a product of the illusion creating machine? And while the matrix movie is being discussed and obsessed over, the real reality goes on unseen or unacted upon.

Here in the US of A, what is real? Our mainstream news is fake/lies. Pop culture is full of false programming. Our politicians are fakes and not what they seem. The C's have even said we are the most propagandized people on the planet. To me, the Matrix movies are a part of that, a product of that process. What are the questions at the core of the Matrix? What IS reality? IS there objective reality? The Matrix seems to be saying 'no, it's all the Matrix and each time you think you have awakened it is just another level of the Matrix. Nothing is objective and you are at the mercy of the programmers'.

I have to disagree.

What appears to be objective to me is that we have been plunged into a subjective world, a fake 'reality'. All you have to do is look at all the people walking around with their consciousness plugged into their electronic gizmos. Gizmos that broadcast an artificially created counterfeit reality.

The C's have also suggested that there IS a way out: the Wave.

OK, enough cold water from me.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
BHelmet said:
OK, enough cold water from me.

In your dreams. :)

Interesting that you might think your post is any different or even that I might think mine will be any different. We're still doing what the W's are hinting at, I think. That the act of trying to wake up out of one dream establishes the next level dream. The 'observational powers' with which we see that others are asleep are like Neo's new powers to use his mind to stop a machine attack. Neo is still dreaming. That's what I think the W's are hinting at (not that they are any more enlightened or whatever).

Changing contexts, Don Juan came closest to explaining what we are doing, I think: we constantly talk to ourselves, thereby continually assembling the world on the fly and we cannot stop talking to ourselves, so we cannot stop assembling this very ponerized world we live and suffer in. In fact, the only difference between someone who talks to themselves aloud, all the time, and a 'normal' person is nothing. The 'normal' person is just doing inner talking or sub-vocalizing. That's probably why an ordinary, naive approach to some meditative practices can drive folks to the looney bin when they see it for themselves.

I think a slyer approach is necessary. There's been recent discussion on the posited ego/allo centric stream of awarenesses. A zen connection was made somewhere and there is even more to Zen than some may realize and the effective zen practices involve some activity one is trying to excel at. Eugene Herrigel outlines it in a 60 page book, Zen and the art of archery, I believe.

The concept is this: at a certain point, even if it takes years of practice, when a certain "tension" has been reached, even if for a split second, a certain connection breaks at the weakest link: an "I" which is nothing but a coupling device, making a link between set configurations of one's past, in terms of his knowledge and experience, and the energy of one's body in the present. The coupling is like the assemblage point in Don Juan's system. To assemble a new world, the old one must be decoupled from and a new one coupled with. But that requires an "I" to die so another can be reborn. That's what people are afraid of, it seems.

Anywho, that's a little synthesis of various materials I did recently. This doesn't negate anything you've said, of course, that's all valid within the system, but the W's would probably say, "you're still dreaming this world, yo!"
 

Ollie

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Buddy said:
...
I think a slyer approach is necessary. There's been recent discussion on the posited ego/allo centric stream of awarenesses. A zen connection was made somewhere and there is even more to Zen than some may realize and the effective zen practices involve some activity one is trying to excel at. Eugene Herrigel outlines it in a 60 page book, Zen and the art of archery, I believe.

The concept is this: at a certain point, even if it takes years of practice, when a certain "tension" has been reached, even if for a split second, a certain connection breaks at the weakest link: an "I" which is nothing but a coupling device, making a link between set configurations of one's past, in terms of his knowledge and experience, and the energy of one's body in the present. The coupling is like the assemblage point in Don Juan's system. To assemble a new world, the old one must be decoupled from and a new one coupled with. But that requires an "I" to die so another can be reborn. That's what people are afraid of, it seems.
...
Having read a few of Herrigel's books, you have made a good point - putting it into practice is a lot harder! I think you have summed it up pretty well with the connection to Don Juan's assemblage point.
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
Buddy said:
... Don Juan came closest to explaining what we are doing, I think: we constantly talk to ourselves, thereby continually assembling the world on the fly and we cannot stop talking to ourselves, so we cannot stop assembling this very ponerized world we live and suffer in.
[...]
The concept is this: at a certain point, even if it takes years of practice, when a certain "tension" has been reached, even if for a split second, a certain connection breaks at the weakest link: an "I" which is nothing but a coupling device, making a link between set configurations of one's past, in terms of his knowledge and experience, and the energy of one's body in the present. The coupling is like the assemblage point in Don Juan's system. To assemble a new world, the old one must be decoupled from and a new one coupled with. But that requires an "I" to die so another can be reborn. That's what people are afraid of, it seems.
And wasn't the earlier point by that Youtube video about the 2 "Ones" in that regard of losing one "I" to gain another "I"? One has to die so the other can be 'reborn'.... fear may or may not get in the way, depending upon one's point of view of life, death and the game we call 'reality'. Sooner or later, that 'assembling' or bias generation has to be synthesized into personal choice... following Ra's discription of the Major Arcana and the mind/body/spirit complex of the little "i" being the assembly point for all experience that leads to the little choices that later lead to the CHOICE.... which sets the Joker or Fool free into the unknown... as planned from the beginning with the blueprint for the incarnation... the points meet at the beginning/endpoint of the life. The goal to break free from the self-imposed chains, for the thrill of the experience, within the purgatorial bounds of this domain to grow that little flame into an inferno..well, the biggest flame one can achieve anyway. ;)

BHelmet said:
[...]The irony, to me, is to see all the energy and focus being spent on these movies as though they were real, but they are, after all, Hollywood creations. My own assumption is that Hollywood ALWAYS has an agenda, no matter how "truthful" a movie might seem. What is Hollywood about? Creating illusions. And delivering subliminal messages.

Speaking of creating illusory reality, here is a little history lesson/clue that relates: ...According to Mr. Suskind, "The aide (Karl Rove?) said that guys like me (Suskind) were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' " The aide told Mr. Suskind, "That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."

If I recall correctly, he went on to say that while people in the reality-based community are looking for answers and trying to react to the reality that the empire has created, a new reality has already been created making the previous one irrelevant - something to the effect that those looking for truth are always a step behind and will never catch up as they follow the bread crumbs down the rabbit hole.

As for the matrix - what is being discussed here? A phantasm, a MOVIE - albeit one with some resemblances and parallels to the deeper reality. But why look to a movie for explanations and insights of reality when the movie is actually a product of the illusion creating machine? And while the matrix movie is being discussed and obsessed over, the real reality goes on unseen or unacted upon.

Here in the US of A, what is real? Our mainstream news is fake/lies. Pop culture is full of false programming. Our politicians are fakes and not what they seem. The C's have even said we are the most propagandized people on the planet. To me, the Matrix movies are a part of that, a product of that process. What are the questions at the core of the Matrix? What IS reality? IS there objective reality? The Matrix seems to be saying 'no, it's all the Matrix and each time you think you have awakened it is just another level of the Matrix. Nothing is objective and you are at the mercy of the programmers'.

I have to disagree.

What appears to be objective to me is that we have been plunged into a subjective world, a fake 'reality'. All you have to do is look at all the people walking around with their consciousness plugged into their electronic gizmos. Gizmos that broadcast an artificially created counterfeit reality.
[...]

Of course, Hollywood is doing its part in the Matrix of controlled illusion, especially in the attempt to setup the corral for the sheeple.... command and control at all times is hoped for, utilizing their free will on both sides to keep the game going, as the designers have planned, only there are designers of the designers at many levels, some come to realize this aspect of the game/illusion, while others, such as the supposed aide (Karl Rove) only comes to think that they control this reality and can continue to do so indefinitely like their tortured prisoners down in Gitmo and all the rest of the secret detention centers. All of us participate in this illusion, the question is how many wake up and realize the nature of the game? Has Rove realized that he is being played by others above him? He's just a puppet of the deep state, a puppet of the secret government, a puppet of the alien 'govt', all of which is overseen by yet more entities going up to the reflections of previous endless fools, which are essentially programs themselves, aren't they? A necessary 'evil' to generate the 'game' in the first place?

Isn't the goal for those that become seekers, or Neo's, to break free of the rabbit hole? Not just to no longer need to dodge bullets, but to no longer need the Matrix, a program called Purgatory, that is needed to generate experiences to keep the greater game of the creation going. Some come to realize the nature of the illusion and others only come to an endless self-reflection in the mirror, in the program of their imperial fantasies. Self-delusion is their self-chosen trap, that endless assembling... endless, until they grow tired of the game and come to the same conclusions as those they mocked much earlier on in one of the game's earlier program versions... as Neo when told he is but that latest of a long line of Neo's. I was thinking this is why Neo doesn't tell the rest of the crew... nor that Council of Elders or whatever they were called... there's always one in these programs, a heirarchy, same as in the machine world, none of which seemed to have come to any realization, most of them seemed to be reaching, but not far enough to break free for themselves, they are riding along in Neo's journey. This is the same analogy used in the YouTuber's Harry Potter comparison of 'THE ONE' as well... most of his crew were helpers, assistants in Harry's journey, which in the end, is everyone's journey, as in the end, we are but fragments of THE ONE, the LOGOS, right? which is but a fragment of the ONE CREATOR... as above, so below, each a reflection of the other... in principle anyway, in not in practice.... given what Ra called 'complex', the separation of the mind/body/spirit complex... separation of conscious from subconscious, for greater concentration of attention and experience, bias generation and choice, transformation et al... as we bring our 'gifts' to our deeper self... which is the ONE SELF.

Personally, I think, as the C's mentioned regarding Thor's crew seeking to infiltrate or at least influence the thoughts of those in the creative arts such as Hollywood, most 'artists' don't realize the depths of what they are expressing, the archetypes etc.... when asked, most can only tell you what it means to them, which is true for all of us... our experiences lead to our biases, our choices, transformation and environment in the matrix, which is indeed a program within a larger matrix program, all of which is constantly under surveillance and supervision by aspects of ourselves, generating it moment by moment as we all go together down that rabbit hole of perception... to know thyself, which, in the end, is all Neo, Harry or any hero of the great adventure can do, right?

That's enough warm water from me... and don't forget the salt. ;)
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
Thanks for a lot of good points made!

Originally the whole Zion is part of the matrix idea made me a bit peturbed.

I was thinking about the contrast of Zion vs the "normal" Matrix, if indeed they are both virtual and people are slaves of a system.

The normal Matrix is more along the lines of our world, with the constant distractions and huge hierarchy/ pecking order of society.

Zion is a bit more basic in terms of distraction (the war) but people work together and have a common aim. There is a hierarchy of the military and a council of elders, but it's more for coordination/training than domination.

The situation of kind of makes me think of society before mass civilization came about.
The past civilizations that had a closer connection to nature and more time to think/feel about things without this crap we deal with today.

I suppose it was close to the idea of 3d STO, or maybe close to the idea of the 1000 year period that the C's and Cayce talked about, where people were allowed to live where they can freely decide to be STO or not.

I agree with gdpetti on the hidden influences of Hollywood. A lot of people watched the movie and took away the violence aspect of it as cool. Some of us were opened to the idea of questioning this reality and what may lie beyond.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
gdpetti said:
And wasn't the earlier point by that Youtube video about the 2 "Ones" in that regard of losing one "I" to gain another "I"? One has to die so the other can be 'reborn'.... fear may or may not get in the way, depending upon one's point of view of life, death and the game we call 'reality'. Sooner or later, that 'assembling' or bias generation has to be synthesized into personal choice... following Ra's discription of the Major Arcana and the mind/body/spirit complex of the little "i" being the assembly point for all experience that leads to the little choices that later lead to the CHOICE.... which sets the Joker or Fool free into the unknown... as planned from the beginning with the blueprint for the incarnation... the points meet at the beginning/endpoint of the life. The goal to break free from the self-imposed chains, for the thrill of the experience, within the purgatorial bounds of this domain to grow that little flame into an inferno..well, the biggest flame one can achieve anyway. ;)

Interesting, if not a little difficult for me to follow. I haven't read Ra. I'll trust your assessment to be close enough.

gdpetti said:
...fear may or may not get in the way, depending upon one's point of view of life, death and the game we call 'reality'.

I think fear of the unknown is perhaps way more powerful than just fear of dying within some matrix only to be reborn into that same matrix with the familiar environments in place. In the view I'm modeling verbally, the "I" cannot experience its own death because the "I" is not there to experience it, so one might well ask, "then what's to be afraid of?". It's the conscious pause at that threshold where one has to "let go" that requires equanimity. The "I" may feel it's facing infinity and the bones may shake in fear due to tension and undisciplined thought. And the nature of infinity is such that no one can give advance information about it. All inner and outer talking has to be halted at that point, I suspect. Prodigal Son recognized the difficulty I'm referring to, I believe. Not that I'm challenging anything here, necessarily, just hoping to clarify my thought a bit.
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
that fear works on both sides, STS as well as STO. The latter have to learn to let everything in, while the former have to do the opposite, learn how to keep everything out, focus, focus, focus... tunnel vision, nothing should count but your personal dominance... easier to do in society perhaps than in an STS group's mindset that seeks the same dominance over each other... competition. Neo has to deal with his own fears that he is still in the Matrix, it's all been another program within a program, self-delusion routine... he's allowed himself to accept the false image projected into his mind, and now he knows why, he is just the same program running... little changes each time, but no escape, which is what the Matrix wants him to think. Is this why he never says, questions anyone else in his group? Fear of the truth as he's been told it? and it now seems more real than the reality he thought he was in before, but it's all just programs, the Oracle, the Architect et al... confusing him, apparently by design? In the end, he seems to have seen the sky? Is it real? Isn't it just a memory of expected reality outside the Matrix? If he's still in the program, he must doubt everything... everything. Agent Smith is running a similar program in opposition towards the same goal of pushing the reassemble end program, reset and run... and he too seems to realize this or something in the way of confusion, as he too is just a program which he busies himself with changes in environment to display his mood and emotions, thoughts or lack thereof. Only the Oracle and Architect, and perhaps some of those like that girl at the end, seem independent in the sense of self-awareness of who and what they are, within the Matrix or not. For them, the Matrix as a program is home... where the heart is. It is there world, but for the 'humans', this is not the case, they look outside the program for memories of home, thus the reason for this Neo/Zion subroutine in the program. What really are the 'machines' running this Matrix? Is it what we see at the end? A apparently self-aware machine existing in the belly of the darkened earth like a seed ready to be replanted? I really don't think the W's know themselves, like many artists, perhaps influenced by that Thor's Pantheum or some archetypal expressions, they can only know, as the Oracle says, what they they are experiencing... or whatever she said, can't remember it exactly. Neo seems to play his part like Agent Smith, in an awakening mode of confusion and doubt about WTF is going on and why. If they are just programs, then the 'humans' may not really exist anymore at all in those tubes, just another part of the Zion subroutine in the main program. Again, the W's don't seem to know themselves, perhaps others have heard better explanations in interviews from them, but all of these artistic endeavors are pretty much the same starting points for the viewer, like Neo and Agent Smith... stepping stones out of the Matrix, and the W's didn't seem to know how to exit the program, maybe because they aren't aware there really is one? Perhaps that ending would have changed if made today???
 

Rashi

Padawan Learner
Such a brilliant control system - Matrix and the movie depicts how deep asleep people in general are. The only way out of the Matrix is by waking up more and more everyday , connecting all the dots because everything is linked. You are being presented with choices every moment you are alive, blue pill or red pill? What choices you make have a butterfly affect on past, present and future. The architects of the matrix cannot be taken head on, the fight is always through you, control of your mind and keeping you asleep is their sole purpose. Always discern before making your choices and live your life like a warrior.
Don Juan said;
“Warriors have an ulterior purpose for their acts which has nothing to do with personal gain. The average man acts only if there is a chance for profit. Warriors act not for profit, but for the spirit.”
 
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