The Odyssey - Manual of Secret Teachings?

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

No, i haven't read it yet!!!
i think i saw the movie ( Directed By Andrei Konchalovsky with Armand Assante) once along time ago!!!
love those classic tales!!!

But now i got interested, i'm gonna read it rigth away!

there is this free copy i found in spanish, with some comments, if any other spanish speaker is interested:
http://isaiasgarde.myfil.es/get_file?path=/homero-la-odisea.pdf
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

As ya'll know, I've been peeling through piles of books for years, and finally there is a way to bring this material to all of you in a more-or-less condensed format that may be an enjoyable project. I had certainly despaired of it because it is all so enormous. Naturally, I'm going to have to think about Fomenko in relation to the Odyssey and Iliad and more at some point, but I think my comments in the Fomenko thread stand: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=710.msg265492#msg265492

So, moving on here. Gmirkin discusses dating:

Gmirkin said:
Historiographical Dating

Under this approach (termed historico-criticism by Wellhausen and his predecessors),
texts are dated in conjunction with historical theories that also seek
hypothetically to explain by whom the texts were introduced and for what historical
motives. A proposed historical background becomes the key to dating the
text. This approach was utilized by the historian Wellhausen and in recent times
by Davies and Albertz.

This book takes the position that the dating of texts should be strictly divorced
from the writing of history.
Dating a text is an attempt to establish a fact, while
history writing, or historiography, whether ancient or modern, is ultimately a
form of storytelling, an entirely different enterprise. It is the essential task of the
historian to synthesize and interpret, to take into account all available historical
data83 and to transform them into "history," that is, a story that in some ways
makes sense of the past. In a sense, the skills of the historian work against the
interests of scientific investigation, for a sufficiently persuasive and engaging
historian may be capable of telling a story so detailed and compelling that it
takes on the semblance of fact. But a historian's ability as a storyteller should not
translate into authority as a creator or arbiter of historical fact. For this reason,
the ascertaining of the underlying facts of history—including the dating of
texts—should be pursued as a technical discipline separate from historical
exposition.


Inductive Dating

Under this approach, features of a text are compared for significant correlation
with contemporary literary genres, literary parallels, language usage, cultural
details, social institutions, relevant archaeological discoveries and other concretely
historical data.84

One important instance of this approach was Van Seters'
comparison of Jewish historiography with that of other cultures. He established
that the historiographical writings of the Hebrew Bible showed influence from
Mesopotamian historiography of ca. 750 BCE or later85 and Greek historiography
of 520 BCE or later86 (although Van Seters avoided drawing chronological conclusions
from the Greek data which were inconsistent with his theory of an exilic
period dating of J87).

Garbini, who viewed the prominence of Ur and Harran in
the Abraham story as details deriving from the time of Nabonidus, also utilized
inductive dating technique. The best practitioner of this approach is arguably
Redford, who showed that the Egyptological data of the Joseph and Exodus
stories was consistent with the Saite, Persian and Ptolemaic periods.


One limitation of this approach is that in many cases it is subject to the
criticism of being an argument from silence. The many Egyptological parallels
of the Joseph and Exodus stories starting with the Saite period listed by Redford
do not preclude similar, less frequently attested or (so far) unattested Egyptian
language parallels, etc., of an earlier period.

The inductive dating approach thus in many cases falls short of absolute
proof, since it often simply points to a specific period rather than absolutely
excluding earlier or later periods.
This is not always the case, however, as sometimes
it is possible to show that a particular detail is not only appropriate for one
period but also is anachronistic for other periods
. For instance, the mention of
"Ur of the Chaldees" is anachronistic before the ninth century BCE, when
Chaldea first appeared as a locality in Assyrian records.88 Similarly, Lydia (Lud)
in the Table of Nations is anachronistic before ca. 700 BCE.89 The mention of
coinage prior to the seventh century BCE is anachronistic, as likely also the mention
of camel transport before about the ninth century BCE.90 Yet such details can
always be argued to have been late glosses on an older text.


Another limitation of this approach is the often capricious manner in which it
preconceptions of terminus a quo and ad quem, when other periods not considered
might provide equally good or better parallels. Van Seters, for instance,
arbitrarily took the historiographical data to indicate a date of composition of the
sixth century BCE. As Lemche pointed out, the historiographical data equally or
better fit the Hellenistic period. Redford admirably considered data from all
Egyptological periods and found the Joseph and Exodus stories to correlate with
Saite, Persian and Ptolemaic data. Yet in his statement of conclusions, he arrived
at a date in the Saite or Persian period, when a Ptolemaic era dating is equally
indicated.
Redford evidently considered a Ptolemaic (Hellenistic) era dating
excluded by unstated terminus ad quem evidence of a non-Egyptological character.

Subjective and often unstated assumptions of terminus a quo and ad quem
dates thus significantly affect inductive dating arguments, both in determining
the scope of historical investigation for collection of relevant data and in the
chronological inferences drawn from those data.


Deductive Dating

Under this potentially rigorous dating approach borrowed from classical studies,
terminus a quo and ad quem dates are determined by source-critical evidence,
defining a date range outside of which it is impossible the text was written.91

This is usually accomplished by deductively establishing a sequence of literary
dependencies that identify dated texts both older and younger than the one in
question. The objective is to establish as narrowly as possible the upper and
lower chronological limits within which the text must have been written.

Garbini paid the closest attention to terminus ad quem data, but developed no
terminus a quo arguments. Among those who do not consider the Pentateuch
completed under Ezra, a terminus ad quem of ca. 300 BCE is almost universally
accepted for the composition of the Pentateuch, although Garbini argued for a
final redaction, including the addition of Genesis, at the time of the Septuagint
translation (ca. 270 BCE), and Lemche also allowed for a third-century BCE
Pentateuchal date.92

This book utilizes both deductive and inductive dating arguments, while historiographical
dating arguments are strictly avoided.
First, deductive techniques
are used to establish that the earliest evidence of the Pentateuch is its translation
into Greek, resulting in a terminus ad quem date of ca. 272-269 BCE
(rather than
ca. 300 BCE based on a mistaken attribution of a fragment of Theophanes to
Hecataeus of Abdera).

A terminus a quo of 278 BCE is then established based on
the Pentateuch's utilizing Berossus (278 BCE), Manetho (ca. 285 BCE) and likely
Cleitarchus (ca. 275 BCE), as well as displaying knowledge of the organization
of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic realms of 278 BCE or later. This hard evidence
deductively establishes a date range of composition of 278-269 BCE for the
Pentateuch.


Within that date range, additional date evidence of an inductive type is also
developed. The Curse of Canaan is argued to have reflected conditions at the end
of the First Syrian War, ca. 273-272 BCE.

Geographical references in the
Exodus account that appear to display knowledge of the Ptolemaic water lock
put in place in ca. 273-272 BCE also point to the same date.
These inductive
arguments are the basis for the proposed more precise dating of 273-272 BCE for
the Pentateuch's composition, but it must be emphasized that the deductive
terminus a quo and ad quem arguments pointing to 278-269 BCE are central to
this book, while the inductive arguments are supplemental and secondary.

An important benefit of dating texts by means of literary dependencies is the
generation of additional data relevant to establishing textual provenance. The
identification of specific texts influential on the formation of the Pentateuch
(notably Berossus and Manetho) unexpectedly points to an intellectual (if not
necessarily strictly geographical) provenance of Alexandria, and documents the
exact means by which Jews were exposed to Greek and Mesopotamian histori-
ography and Mesopotamian cuneiform traditions by way of the Alexandrian
Library.

Date, language and locale favor identifying the authors of the Pentateuch
with the Septuagint scholars who were present at Alexandria at the requi-
site time, knew both Greek and Hebrew, were said to have been knowledgeable
in Greek literature, and had access to the Great Library where the Greek literary
texts antecedent to the Pentateuch were housed.


The identification of the date,
locale and authors of the Pentateuch, carefully established step by step, provides
for the first time a rigorous logical foundation for drawing substantial historical
conclusions regarding the circumstances under which the Pentateuch and other
biblical materials were composed. It must be emphasized that these historical
conclusions rise or fall on the strength of the supporting arguments and in no
way guided the preliminary research on date and provenance this book presents.

Conclusions regarding the official Ptolemaic patronage of the authors of the
Pentateuch and later biblical literature arose organically out of the earlier
inquiries first into date and then into provenance: the impact of Alexandrian
scholarship on the composition of the Hebrew Bible came as much as a surprise
to this author as it may to many of his readers.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Okay, that's basically all you need to know about the Bible as background for what we are going to be doing here - that it was written very, very late - that is, the Septuagint WAS the "writing of the Bible" - and that it was done by some Hebrew scholars who probably knew Greek better than they knew Hebrew and who were also probably tainted with schizoidal psychopathy, and who were hanging out in Alexandria and had access to all the texts in that library.

What you will see, as we go along - you reading and me posting some excerpts of comparisons so you can pay special attention to different parts of the text of the Odyssey - is exactly what kinds of texts these Hebrew scholars may have had access to. This, hopefully, is going to allow us to speculate a bit about what our ancestors knew and may have tried to encode for the future in epics such as The Odyssey. They sent us a message in a bottle.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

manitoban said:
Heimdallr said:
I have not read it either.

Me either, but it sure sounds like a must read!

No read it also. But I think I should. It is a classic, the base of all literature say some scholars. The base of our culture, say some. It should be very interesting to study the Odisea under the perspective of what Laura told. In fact it can be fascinating!

Loreta
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I have a Spanish version but it is in prose. Is the Odyssey in prose or in verse? I had the impression it is was in verse.

Loreta
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I'm a bit confused with one part of the terminology. In the quote from Gmirkin on the 8th page, the term terminus ad quern is used. I looked that up to clarify it's meaning and while there were many hits, there didn't seem to be a definition. So I just looked up the word quern which was defined as a mill for grinding grain. I was pointed to terminus ad quem which is also mentioned later on in Gmirkin's dating passage and basically means a goal or finishing point which makes sense considering the context. I'm wondering if there's something I'm not understanding?
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Laura said:
Okay, that's basically all you need to know about the Bible as background for what we are going to be doing here - that it was written very, very late - that is, the Septuagint WAS the "writing of the Bible" - and that it was done by some Hebrew scholars who probably knew Greek better than they knew Hebrew and who were also probably tainted with schizoidal psychopathy, and who were hanging out in Alexandria and had access to all the texts in that library.

Analysis of the sources utilized in the Pentateuch point to Jewish access to Greek
manuscripts of the Great Library in Alexandria. Authorship of key portions of
the Pentateuch by Jewish scholars knowledgeable in Greek, and having access to
Alexandria's library in 273-272 BCE, points to the identity of the authors of the
Pentateuch with the team of seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars whom
tradition credited with having created the Septuagint translation about this same
time through the generous patronage of Ptolemy II Philadelphus. The objective
of the Septuagint scholars' literary activities is best understood as the composition
of the Hebrew Pentateuch itself, and only secondarily its translation into
Greek.

Just to make sure I've understood this correctly: the Jewish/Greek scholars - the "translators" - (in ca 273BCE) wrote first the Pentateuch in Hebrew (claiming it was ancient), and right after they 'translated' it into the Greek version, Septuagint? Or maybe they wrote the Greek version first, not that it matters. The whole Pentateuch seems to be one big hoax!
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Had to read it, or maybe it was the Iliad? in high school. Don't remember much except it was full of words I didn't understand. I may have seen part of the movie. Is that the one where he gets sucked in by the Sirens and stays on some island with them and loses all concept of time? :huh:
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

truth seeker said:
I'm a bit confused with one part of the terminology. In the quote from Gmirkin on the 8th page, the term terminus ad quern is used. I looked that up to clarify it's meaning and while there were many hits, there didn't seem to be a definition. So I just looked up the word quern which was defined as a mill for grinding grain. I was pointed to terminus ad quem which is also mentioned later on in Gmirkin's dating passage and basically means a goal or finishing point which makes sense considering the context. I'm wondering if there's something I'm not understanding?
I think you got mixed up with the wrong reference in this case.
Try these ones: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminus_post_quem and this one: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_dating

In Laura's context it has to do with dating procedures, not with logical ones (as in philosophy of logic or mathematical logic and such).

As for the subject at hand, I read the Odyssey several times. At first at school when translating from the Greek only fragments of the stuff, I felt the need to get an overview of the whole text to get more context to the fragments we were supposed to translate. So I read about it and about the supposed 'writer' (Homer) before reading up on the bulk of it in translations (one in prose and one in verse). Later on in life, when I had more spare time than I wanted to have, I decided to brush up on these classic texts by reading them again in alternative translations. In the meantime I encountered bits and pieces in movies, other books that carried citations from Odyssey, opera fragments about leading figures and what have you.

I very much look forward to Laura's input from a different angle and plan to hop in when I think I have something substantial to contribute. Riveting...
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Palinurus said:
truth seeker said:
I'm a bit confused with one part of the terminology. In the quote from Gmirkin on the 8th page, the term terminus ad quern is used. I looked that up to clarify it's meaning and while there were many hits, there didn't seem to be a definition. So I just looked up the word quern which was defined as a mill for grinding grain. I was pointed to terminus ad quem which is also mentioned later on in Gmirkin's dating passage and basically means a goal or finishing point which makes sense considering the context. I'm wondering if there's something I'm not understanding?
I think you got mixed up with the wrong reference in this case.
Try these ones: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminus_post_quem and this one: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_dating
Hey Palinurus,

Apologies if I wasn't clear but what I was questioning was the usage of the terms terminus ad quern (listed on page 8 of this thread) - one example:

Quote from: Gmirkin
The crucial first step in dating the Pentateuch is establishing a true
terminus ad quern. Chapter 2 shows that the early date of Pentateuchal sources
according to the Documentary Hypothesis is entirely lacking in external corroboration,
since archaeological evidence, including an analysis of written finds
in Judea and at Elephantine, does not support the existence of any written Pentateuchal
materials prior to the third century BCE.

and the usage of the phrase terminus ad quem listed on this page:

Garbini paid the closest attention to terminus ad quem data, but developed no
terminus a quo arguments. Among those who do not consider the Pentateuch
completed under Ezra, a terminus ad quem of ca. 300 BCE is almost universally
accepted for the composition of the Pentateuch, although Garbini argued for a
final redaction, including the addition of Genesis, at the time of the Septuagint
translation (ca. 270 BCE), and Lemche also allowed for a third-century BCE
Pentateuchal date.92

note the two different spellings (r m) and (m).

More than likely, it's a spelling error but because quer(m) is an actual word, I was slightly thrown off. I hope that's clearer.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

truth seeker said:
More than likely, it's a spelling error but because quer(m) is an actual word, I was slightly thrown off. I hope that's clearer.

Yeah, I think it's "quem". If this was taken from a scanned OCR text, then it's very possible the OCR software interpreted an "m" as a "rn".

FWIW.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

truth seeker said:
I'm a bit confused with one part of the terminology. In the quote from Gmirkin on the 8th page, the term terminus ad quern is used. I looked that up to clarify it's meaning and while there were many hits, there didn't seem to be a definition. So I just looked up the word quern which was defined as a mill for grinding grain. I was pointed to terminus ad quem which is also mentioned later on in Gmirkin's dating passage and basically means a goal or finishing point which makes sense considering the context. I'm wondering if there's something I'm not understanding?

It's a scanned copy. Obviously, the scanner read "m" as "rn".
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

@ truth seeker:
I already had factored in the likelihood of a scanning error or a typo. So I thought you didn't grok the meaning of the terminology. My bad. Assumptions will get you almost every time it seems. So my apologies to you. And thanks for explaining.
 

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