The Rapture Myth a Con designed to pay off *after* the arrival of the Wave?

[Buddy]

Hi seekr;

I'm a little confused about something.
In two separate places, you say "Things are never black and white...", yet the solutions to specific situations you propose seem to have black and white answers. In fact, these solutions seem to smack of some kind of moralistic determination.

I have struggled with this issue myself. There are several threads where people struggle with answers to these very concerns, for example:
"Helping:" STS or STO? (5 pages - 64 replys as of now)
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9245.msg66332#msg66332

...yet, I don't remember having arrived at any 'across-the-board' model solution. I understand that there is responsibility linked to one's fundamental choice of what to serve, but it looks to me like you are only using the "A" influences to base your decision(s) on.

Please help me understand what I'm missing here.

 

[Woodsman]

Whoa. The free-will question as it applies to interference in an abusive situation. That seems to be one of the bigger puzzles in our reality. The whole Iraq war was the result of un-requested interference, at least from the perspective of the humble ground troop going in to liberate Iraqis.

I pull this puzzle up in my mind from time to time, never entirely confident that I've got it satisfactorily figured out. This is what I've managed to come up with so far. . .

I frequently refer back to the quote, "To give that which is not asked for is the same as taking." (I did a variety of transcript searches, but I could not find anything like this again. I've probably changed it in my memory, but I seem to think it was a C's quote.)

Anyway, one of the issues which comes up with this whole question is that of Karma. . .

One example I've heard before is this: An abuse victim may be the reincarnation of a torturer and the abuser may be the reincarnation of the torture victim. The abuse scenario in the flat next door may be an agreed upon method for balancing karma, (an agreement made pre-incarnation). To interfere in that would mess things up. --I remember mentioning this idea to a fellow I know, and he grew red in the face. He'd traveled to the East and had seen abuse happening on the streets while police walked blithely by, using the karma excuse to avoid stopping a crime. He argued that this was utterly reprehensible and that a good person should *always* step in.

But how do we know the truth of the case? Is Karma being paid off, or is a preventable debt being incurred? How can we proceed?

Well, there are two ways that I see. . .

The first is simply to ask. "Do you want help?" If the offer is declined, then one should respect that wish. But this doesn't mean you can't offer more than once.

If the victim insists, "I'm a bad person, and I deserve this. I feel sorry for my abusive, alcoholic father. He's had a very hard day, etc." Then you can always challenge that view point, offering different ways to see the situation. It probably shouldn't, however, be done like a door to door Jehova's Witness trying to force a hard sell, using intention like a hammer to batter through the resistance of the victim. That's just another kind of violation.

3rd Level: You hear the neighbors arguing and realize (knowledge) it is becoming verbally abusive, you go next door and ring the bell. When they answer, you ask to borrow something trivial, such as a lawn rake or a couple of eggs, then you chit chat a minute and thank them graciously for obliging your request, (knowledge) thus defusing the argument by giving it time to cool while they are dealing with you. If it has escalated to violence, you might call the police before you go next door and ring the bell, when they answer, you are prepared to for possible physical confrontation, even if it means running(knowledge) and evaluate the situation to determine whether talking will stall the fight until the police arrive. If no answer, one may choose to enter, depending on your ability to handle yourself and others, and then determine whether to engage physically or verbally. All while being aware of the dynamics of domestic situations (knowledge).

The thing I liked about this approach is that touches on the idea of non-linear solutions, and it links up nicely with the second way I see of solving for this problem. . .

Instinct.

--One of the forces which comes to bear on people when they find themselves in such a scenario I've noticed, is that of Instinct. Instinct has a bead on the truth of subtle matters, presumably including Karma balances and unspoken intentions, etc. That's the (possibly false) assumption I tend to proceed from. This idea might change at some point, but it has seemed to work thus far.

When I've been in situations where I am witnessing abuse of some kind, and I have the ability to step in, then sometimes reality gets a bit. . , odd. It's like a hyper-awareness falls on me, and I'll just know what the right thing to do is. This happens to many people I've talked with and not just in abuse situations, but in all manner of high-tension dramas where the stakes are critical in one respect or another. I've met a few people who have gone into, "The Zone" and find themselves doing the most unexpected things which solve the situation perfectly.

A story:

I was hiking through the outskirts of a small town in Spain. Me and my backpack all alone in the world. For some reason, in that culture it was common for abandoned dogs to run in packs. I'd never seen this before in Canada, so when I found myself suddenly confronted by a dozen dogs out in the middle of a big field, I stopped up short. I'd been bitten by dogs a couple of times as a small kid, and some very powerful automatic reactions jumped to the fore. I remembered things like, "Dogs can smell fear," and "If you run, they can't help but chase."

So I stood there somewhat petrified, and the dogs all looked at me with their dog muscles tensed up for. . , something. The whole situation felt like a powder keg waiting to go off.

And then that weird "Zone" thing happened. Without thinking, I pulled out a harmonica I'd been carrying with me and I started playing a loud and silly tune. That broke the tension and the dogs relaxed and I was able to extract myself from the situation without any problem.

I don't know if the harmonica had affected the dogs so much as it had affected me. My fear vanished and perhaps that was the key point. In any case, that's an example of instinct taking over to solve a situation in a non-linear way.

 

[Inti]

Thanks Seekr for trying to explain things to me, I do appreciate the effort! Your first response made it seem so simple, but perhaps therein lies the catch! As you later point out:

Things are never black and white..... unless we are talking Holstein dairy cows or silent movies. That is why it is the situation or the details of any given circumstance that determines right from wrong. This is discernment which is knowing how to apply the knowledge one has.

I'm still struggling! You later point out:

If we do not have the knowledge or ability to help then we have no responsibility.

Is this true? I guess I'm concerned about the situation of partial knowledge...because I can't imagine ever completely knowing. Discernment is a tricky thing! What I'm trying to work out is if I think I have enough knowledge and ability to prevent harm to others without also bringing harm to myself, do I get involved despite not understanding the greater scheme of things? Woodsman also talks about instinct. And again, I don't know much about this either. I have often found my instinct to be a good guide, but is it wise to always rely on it? Or is it something to fall back on when you have no other knowledge?
I think I also have many of the same questions as Buddy. Thanks for pointing out the Helping thread, Buddy, I will read it next. Are there any others that might be worth reading for greater understanding on these issues?

 

[PepperFritz]

What I'm trying to work out is if I think I have enough knowledge and ability to prevent harm to others without also bringing harm to myself, do I get involved despite not understanding the greater scheme of things?

I would suggest that the place to start is gaining knowledge about YOURSELF and your own machine, which is known here as "the Work" (see Gurdjieff's 4th Way Teaching). In order to get to the point where we can respond to others from the "right place", we have to "clean our machine" -- that is, get to know our own Programs and emotional issues, the ways in which we lie to ourselves and respond to things in an unconscious, mechanical way. This cannot be achieved overnight, it requires persistent, day-to-day effort. It also requires a group like this one, in which others also pursuing the Work can act as a mirror, to help us see what we ourselves cannot.


I've found that it's counter-productive to immediately focus on "changing" yourself and your behaviour, before you know the mechanics of it. When I first began the Work, I found it helpful to try and split myself into two, so to speak -- with one part of me performing my usual mechanical behaviour, and the other part trying to objectively and non-judgmentally observe that behaviour, note the circumstances and emotions that tend to trigger it, the consequences of my actions, etc. The more we are able to clearly see OURSELVES, recognize our own Programs, emotional issues, mechanical behaviour, etc., the more we can view OTHERS and the world around us with OBJECTIVITY, instead of through the prism of our own SUBJECTIVITY.

Thanks for pointing out the Helping thread, Buddy, I will read it next. Are there any others that might be worth reading for greater understanding on these issues?

I strongly recommend taking the time to read through the threads in the section of the forum titled The Work, especially the "stickies". I know it's a lot of material, but there's real gold there if you're willing to invest the time and energy....

:)

 

[Woodsman]

I would suggest that the place to start is gaining knowledge about YOURSELF and your own machine, which is known here as "the Work" (see Gurdjieff's 4th Way Teaching). In order to get to the point where we can respond to others from the "right place", we have to "clean our machine" -- that is, get to know our own Programs and emotional issues, the ways in which we lie to ourselves and respond to things in an unconscious, mechanical way. This cannot be achieved overnight, it requires persistent, day-to-day effort. It also requires a group like this one, in which others also pursuing the Work can act as a mirror, to help us see what we ourselves cannot.


I've found that it's counter-productive to immediately focus on "changing" yourself and your behaviour, before you know the mechanics of it. When I first began the Work, I found it helpful to try and split myself into two, so to speak -- with one part of me performing my usual mechanical behaviour, and the other part trying to objectively and non-judgmentally observe that behaviour, note the circumstances and emotions that tend to trigger it, the consequences of my actions, etc. The more we are able to clearly see OURSELVES, recognize our own Programs, emotional issues, mechanical behaviour, etc., the more we can view OTHERS and the world around us with OBJECTIVITY, instead of through the prism of our own SUBJECTIVITY.

I strongly recommend taking the time to read through the threads in the section of the forum titled The Work, especially the "stickies". I know it's a lot of material, but there's real gold there if you're willing to invest the time and energy....

:)

Hm. I was just fighting with myself over whether or not to post something I'd just finished writing, and when I clicked the window to open the editor to paste the thing I'd just completed, (and then spend the next ten minutes trying to decide if I REALLY wanted to hit 'post'), a notification popped up telling me something new had been added to the thread. So I went to read it, and it was the above from Pepperfritz. It addressed the exact issue I was struggling with.

Here's the thing I was going to post, (and now have, albeit from the comforting intellectual distance of having placed it in a quote)

I've been reviewing in my mind my own post from yesterday. --That of allowing 'instinct' to dictate actions. My story about the harmonica and the dogs was one which I perceived as having saved my bacon, but I'm wondering about it now.

It was clearly an automatic reaction. --We have lots of them; like the heart and lungs working to keep us alive, automatic reactions can be positive and useful. However, a robot, were it capable, would say the same thing about it's own automatic functions which keep it viable.

The thing is, I really LIKE some of my automatic features; the ones which keep me alive or perpetuate 'good' feelings. Perhaps these are the ones which are most deceptive and which are in sore need of examination. --Because the automatic actions which cause pain and negative feelings are easier to spot and the motivation to remove them is 'automatically' stronger.

Instinct is a really interesting thing, and it offers a useful tool for navigating life, but I think it might also be one of the more important ones to measure. My current half-baked plan is to just be vigilant; next time I access instinct, I'm going to keep an eye on it to see what happens. Then I'll go from there.

btw, my decision to post this is also, I noticed, stemming from an automatic reaction, and a fairly strong one. --I felt strongly that I didn't want people to think I'd made a mistake and thus think less of me, and so I wanted to update my last comment with this information.

So I nearly didn't post at all, thinking, "Okay. I've identified this, and I will not post because I don't want to allow an automatic reaction to drive me." --This is the kind of thinking which has many times caused me to abort posting here over the years. Everything seemed to be ego-related or subtly dishonest in some way.

Obviously, I have posted. I'm not even sure why now, having become confused by the endless regression of automatic reactions bouncing around inside me. Am I posting to show "Look how self-aware I am!" Or am I posting to show, "Look! This is interesting, and may be useful!" Am I just looking for scraps of attention? When I notice each automatic program, it sort of stops, only to be replaced by another one.

I'd really like to just back away and not risk making any mistakes, but that's also an automatic reaction, and it's a fear-based one. And the idea that participation may be the solution seems like a light here. So I'm just going to hold my breath and throw this mess out there and see. I'm feeling very nervous right now. My hands are sweating.

I'm off to start chipping away at the big thread on "The Work". Thanks for everybody's indulgence. :)

 

[PepperFritz]

The thing is, I really LIKE some of my automatic features; the ones which keep me alive or perpetuate 'good' feelings. Perhaps these are the ones which are most deceptive and which are in sore need of examination. --Because the automatic actions which cause pain and negative feelings are easier to spot and the motivation to remove them is 'automatically' stronger.

You've identified something that I think we all go through. I know that for myself the initial motivation for beginning the Work was to free myself from those programs and mechanical behaviours that lead to painful and unpleasant situations, while those that make me "feel good" have been harder to (1) identify, and (2) let go of. But the longer I continue the Work, the more I am led to see that those "feel good" programs are just buffers between myself and the emotions/situations/realities I don't want to deal with. Eventually one makes the breakthrough to wanting to SEE OBJECTIVELY simply for the sake of it, to be REAL and AUTHENTIC to ourselves, and to gain the protection of seeing the world as it really is.

Obviously, I have posted. I'm not even sure why now, having become confused by the endless regression of automatic reactions bouncing around inside me.... I felt strongly that I didn't want people to think I'd made a mistake and thus think less of me.... I'd really like to just back away and not risk making any mistakes, but that's also an automatic reaction, and it's a fear-based one.... I'm feeling very nervous right now. My hands are sweating....

Your feelings are understandable, and quite common. Just remember that everyone here is in the same boat. No one is here to judge you. As with anything, it will get easier over time, and with practice. There will also be set-backs, and you should expect them. In my opinion, the worst mistake you can make is to try to accomplish too much too soon, and then get down on yourself for not "progressing". Day by day, step by step, easy does it. All people here expect from you is honesty and effort.

I'm feeling very nervous right now. My hands are sweating....

You might want to see that person who's "sweating" as your Predator, as it is really he that is feeling fear, fear of being exposed for what he is. I and others on our forum have found it helpful to think, see, and refer to our Predator and various mechanical "selves" in the third-person, which can help in detaching from the behaviour and enable you to observe it more objectively. For example, I'll see myself getting upset over some petty issue, and then say to myself "There she goes again, having to control every little thing...."

:P

 

[Inti]

Thankyou PepperFritz for trying to clarify things and the pointers for further reading. I too will move on to "the Work" thread and try and make progress through it! I realise I have a lot of work and research to do before I come to have any sort of grip on these matters. I am still confused as to how to act in the meantime, ie. before I can see my programs, emotional issues, etc clearly...are there suggestions about this? I'm not asking to be told how to act, but just whether there is any guidance about this? Is it wise to continue as before, is this what you mean by:

I've found that it's counter-productive to immediately focus on "changing" yourself and your behaviour, before you know the mechanics of it. When I first began the Work, I found it helpful to try and split myself into two, so to speak -- with one part of me performing my usual mechanical behaviour, and the other part trying to objectively and non-judgmentally observe that behaviour, note the circumstances and emotions that tend to trigger it, the consequences of my actions, etc.

Or is it wise to not intervene at all, or go by "conscience" or "instinct" and watch self?
Sorry to be slow in understanding all this.

 

[Woodsman]

Your feelings are understandable, and quite common. Just remember that everyone here is in the same boat. No one is here to judge you. As with anything, it will get easier over time, and with practice. There will also be set-backs, and you should expect them. In my opinion, the worst mistake you can make is to try to accomplish too much too soon, and then get down on yourself for not "progressing". Day by day, step by step, easy does it. All people here expect from you is honesty and effort.

--I find I'm having a rather intense emotional reaction to all of this. I think it must be rather like a person in drug rehab might feel. Feelings of wanting to cry and intense gratitude and such. I don't quite understand it, and I don't know yet what to make of it. Probably more automatic stuff; I certainly don't think it would be healthy or useful to let "Jesus saves" style thought patterns evolve. But still, thanks.

Onward.

 

[PepperFritz]

I am still confused as to how to act in the meantime, ie. before I can see my programs, emotional issues, etc clearly...are there suggestions about this? I'm not asking to be told how to act, but just whether there is any guidance about this?

I would strongly recommend reading the various threads in the section titled "the Work", starting with the "stickies". It's a lot of material, but extremely valuable if you are willing to invest the time and energy. An approach you can adopt immediately is just stopping to consider before acting, especially when there is strong emotion involved. The following message I posted in another thread is an example of what I mean:

Someone on the forum once advised me that whenever I felt an urgent impulse to respond to something RIGHT AWAY, that it was a sure sign that the response would be mechanical in nature, and that I should give the matter a "cooling off" period before acting. It was extremely valuable advice, one that I wish I could say I follow unfailingly ( :/). But, generally speaking, I now try to give myself 24hrs before responding to something that I have an immediate emotional response to, in order to give myself time to view the situation and my response more objectively, get feedback from others, etc.

The great value in a forum such as this is the opportunity it presents to get feedback from others when you are uncertain how to act or respond in a certain situation. Others who are also involved in the Work can often, collectively, offer more objective observations than we as individuals are able to do. However, that is not meant to be a substitution for your doing the Work on your own, only a place to run by your own observations for feedback and input.

Is it wise to continue as before...?

Yes, but with the additional effort of self-observation, getting feedback from the group, etc. Here's a hypothetical example of how that might work:

"Mary" gets very upset and defensive whenever her husband makes any comment about her appearance that is not glowing praise. When she "remembers herself" and lets a part of her observe the situation objectively, she realizes that what she is feeling just before she reacts is "put down" and devalued. When she objectively considers a little more, she realizes that there is no rational reason for her to feel that way, since her husband is not in the habit of putting her down or devaluing her, in fact he is an extremely supportive, loving husband who has always made her feel attractive. So she thinks (or maybe someone in this group asks her), who is it in her "past" has made her feel "put down" and devalued? If she follows the unpleasant feelings and emotions that come up, she realizes it was her mother who made her feel that way, when she was a child, and that as a result she has developed a "program" that causes her to automatically react in a defensive manner whenever anyone comments on her appearance. This insight gives her the ability to stop the next time she feels her "program" being triggered by a comment by her husband, and rationally tell herself that she is not reacting to the present (a loving supportive husband), but to the past (an overbearing, narcissistic mother). By discovering the "mechanics" of the "program", it loses its power over her.

Or is it wise to ... go by "conscience" or "instinct"....?

Well, sometimes what one calls "instinct", listening to their "inner voice", is just doing what feels "right" to them in that moment. And if they do not know their own machine, their own programs and emotional issues, it may not having anything at all to do with what is objectively "right", only with what "feels good". So, again, objective self-observation and seeking out the objective observation of group members, is the place to start, I'd say....

Hopefully, other group members will have more to add.

 

[Buddy]

So, again, objective self-observation and seeking out the objective observation of group members, is the place to start, I'd say....

Hopefully, other group members will have more to add.

Since Inti has received considerable advice at this point, and seems to be mainly interested in 'what to do in the meantime', I would only add a suggestion for a thorough understanding of External Consideration and The Strategic Enclosure:

An overview of External/Internal Considering and The Strategic Enclosure with links to more info:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10282.msg82545#msg82545

And then with the strengthened awareness of the subject, perhaps a review of:
Frustration with wishful thinking:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11666.msg82857#msg82857 with this new knowledge in mind.

If Inti is "...surrounded by many wishful thinkers", and does "...not handle situations with these people very well", because "...my gut reaction...is one of anger", then perhaps the next item would be understanding and practicing self-observation (as suggested in PepperFritz's quote above) with the goal of getting to the root of the problem.

 

[Inti]

Thanks, Pepperfritz, for your last post and your patience in explaining to me. The last post has helped to clarify and dissipate some of the confusion I was feeling!
Thanks also to Buddy for the pointers to threads and suggestions. I am already working on and observing my behaviour with "wishful thinkers"! Now for all the reading and vigilance of behaviours and programs!

 

[Buddy]

--I find I'm having a rather intense emotional reaction to all of this. I think it must be rather like a person in drug rehab might feel. Feelings of wanting to cry and intense gratitude and such. I don't quite understand it, and I don't know yet what to make of it. Probably more automatic stuff; I certainly don't think it would be healthy or useful to let "Jesus saves" style thought patterns evolve. But still, thanks.

Onward.

Woodsman, this post struck a chord with me. I've had similar reactions at different times.
I can't speak for you but as for me, I've identified it as a spontaneous emotional reaction to what I perceive as genuine and sincere understanding and acceptance (not the facsimilies I've grown accustomed to over the years).
It's a beautiful feeling... :)

 

[SeekinTruth]

I would suggest that the place to start is gaining knowledge about YOURSELF and your own machine, which is known here as "the Work" (see Gurdjieff's 4th Way Teaching). In order to get to the point where we can respond to others from the "right place", we have to "clean our machine" -- that is, get to know our own Programs and emotional issues, the ways in which we lie to ourselves and respond to things in an unconscious, mechanical way. This cannot be achieved overnight, it requires persistent, day-to-day effort. It also requires a group like this one, in which others also pursuing the Work can act as a mirror, to help us see what we ourselves cannot.

This is definitely the place to start, keeping in mind, as pointed out, that it is a long, slow process of first identifying and then, over time, shedding programs that launch and run automatically.

I've found that it's counter-productive to immediately focus on "changing" yourself and your behaviour, before you know the mechanics of it. When I first began the Work, I found it helpful to try and split myself into two, so to speak -- with one part of me performing my usual mechanical behaviour, and the other part trying to objectively and non-judgmentally observe that behaviour, note the circumstances and emotions that tend to trigger it, the consequences of my actions, etc. .

It is definitely not productive to try to change yourself and your behavior at the beginning (and for quite some time until the observation and collection of data is practiced and also shared with the forum for feedback). And the attempt to split the attention is very helpful (and difficult to sustain). One of the most difficult things for me has been to sustain a non-judgmental observation process. The tendency to judge the reactions (as stupid, selfish, irrational and other labels) as they’re in progress is very strong.

The more we are able to clearly see OURSELVES, recognize our own Programs, emotional issues, mechanical behaviour, etc., the more we can view OTHERS and the world around us with OBJECTIVITY, instead of through the prism of our own SUBJECTIVITY.

You will really begin to notice how this change comes about over time even when you are still in large part subjective.

The thing is, I really LIKE some of my automatic features; the ones which keep me alive or perpetuate 'good' feelings. Perhaps these are the ones which are most deceptive and which are in sore need of examination. --Because the automatic actions which cause pain and negative feelings are easier to spot and the motivation to remove them is 'automatically' stronger.

You've identified something that I think we all go through. I know that for myself the initial motivation for beginning the Work was to free myself from those programs and mechanical behaviours that lead to painful and unpleasant situations, while those that make me "feel good" have been harder to (1) identify, and (2) let go of. But the longer I continue the Work, the more I am led to see that those "feel good" programs are just buffers between myself and the emotions/situations/realities I don't want to deal with. Eventually one makes the breakthrough to wanting to SEE OBJECTIVELY simply for the sake of it, to be REAL and AUTHENTIC to ourselves, and to gain the protection of seeing the world as it really is.

It’s definitely harder to identify and let go of "feel good" programs, but in getting rid of those leading to painful / unpleasant situations we perhaps make available new avenues of approach and energy to work on the "feel good" ones.

btw, my decision to post this is also, I noticed, stemming from an automatic reaction, and a fairly strong one. --I felt strongly that I didn't want people to think I'd made a mistake and thus think less of me, and so I wanted to update my last comment with this information.

So I nearly didn't post at all, thinking, "Okay. I've identified this, and I will not post because I don't want to allow an automatic reaction to drive me." --This is the kind of thinking which has many times caused me to abort posting here over the years. Everything seemed to be ego-related or subtly dishonest in some way.

Obviously, I have posted. I'm not even sure why now, having become confused by the endless regression of automatic reactions bouncing around inside me. Am I posting to show "Look how self-aware I am!" Or am I posting to show, "Look! This is interesting, and may be useful!" Am I just looking for scraps of attention? When I notice each automatic program, it sort of stops, only to be replaced by another one.

I'd really like to just back away and not risk making any mistakes, but that's also an automatic reaction, and it's a fear-based one. And the idea that participation may be the solution seems like a light here.

Your feelings are understandable, and quite common. Just remember that everyone here is in the same boat. No one is here to judge you. As with anything, it will get easier over time, and with practice. There will also be set-backs, and you should expect them. In my opinion, the worst mistake you can make is to try to accomplish too much too soon, and then get down on yourself for not "progressing". Day by day, step by step, easy does it. All people here expect from you is honesty and effort.

The layers of programs / false personality are really deep, aren’t they? However, if you keep at it you will keep uncovering new layers and those you can’t seem to identify will be pointed out to you if you participate more on the forum and thus accelerate the progress of your work. That’s what I’m going to try to do more of. I need to make more time to post as well as read.

 

[seekr]

Sorry for the long delay in responding to the questions (Woodsman, Buddy, Inti) form my last post. I had a virus on my pc that took some time to rid and get back online. Nothing quite as scary as rebooting, only to find a blank white screen.

I will try to get up to date with this thread and clarify what I meant. Try to keep in mind, as with everything in this plane, that what we are looking at is simply the 3D projection/perception of a 7 part existence (theoretically) and from here, we can only see 1-3D and sometimes catch glimpses of 4D. (that may be scarier than the above mentioned "blank white screen :/)

Hi seekr;

I'm a little confused about something.
In two separate places, you say "Things are never black and white...", yet the solutions to specific situations you propose seem to have black and white answers. In fact, these solutions seem to smack of some kind of moralistic determination.

I have struggled with this issue myself. There are several threads where people struggle with answers to these very concerns, for example:
"Helping:" STS or STO? (5 pages - 64 replys as of now)
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9245.msg66332#msg66332

...yet, I don't remember having arrived at any 'across-the-board' model solution. I understand that there is responsibility linked to one's fundamental choice of what to serve, but it looks to me like you are only using the "A" influences to base your decision(s) on.

Please help me understand what I'm missing here.

Perhaps the above situations seem so cut and dry because they are based only on the information given. "Nothing is black and white" because we can not see ALL of the variables in a given situation. But by learning patterns, programs and the archetypes, we can learn to see more of "the big picture". When we learn to see our programs and remove them from our machine, we can then look objectively at the situation rather than subjectively.

Think of it as a jigsaw puzzle, the kind that has the same picture on both sides ,("A") on one side but turned 180 degrees("B") on the back side. Now as you assemble the puzzle you may find a piece that has the right "image" ("A")and should fit, but doesn't. That is because it is the image from 180' ("B").Now liken this to subjectivity and objectivity, subjectivity looks right but doesn't quite fit, although we will try to make it, but if we were to turn the puzzle over and look at it from the other side (objectivity) we would see that it is the wrong piece for that part of the puzzle.

We must learn to see who is truly "asking/needs" and who is simply trying to manipulate us into doing that which they don't want to do for themselves.

...yet, I don't remember having arrived at any 'across-the-board' model solution. I understand that there is responsibility linked to one's fundamental choice of what to serve, but it looks to me like you are only using the "A" influences to base your decision(s) on.

Please help me understand what I'm missing here.

I don't think there really is "an across the board model" But let's look at the story from Woodsman to see if perhaps it contains some A and B influences.

A story:

I was hiking through the outskirts of a small town in Spain. Me and my backpack all alone in the world. For some reason, in that culture it was common for abandoned dogs to run in packs. I'd never seen this before in Canada, so when I found myself suddenly confronted by a dozen dogs out in the middle of a big field, I stopped up short. I'd been bitten by dogs a couple of times as a small kid, and some very powerful automatic reactions jumped to the fore. I remembered things like, "Dogs can smell fear," and "If you run, they can't help but chase."

So I stood there somewhat petrified, and the dogs all looked at me with their dog muscles tensed up for. . , something. The whole situation felt like a powder keg waiting to go off.

Notice, "I stopped short", this would seem to be instinct as we understand it in animals, "fight or flight". Then remembering a "childhood bite", this sounds like "A" influences, things from everyday life. Then "some very powerful AUTOMATIC RE-actions jumped to the fore", could be a program. These all seem to be A influences of everyday life.

And then that weird "Zone" thing happened. Without thinking, I pulled out a harmonica I'd been carrying with me and I started playing a loud and silly tune. That broke the tension and the dogs relaxed and I was able to extract myself from the situation without any problem.

I don't know if the harmonica had affected the dogs so much as it had affected me. My fear vanished and perhaps that was the key point. In any case, that's an example of instinct taking over to solve a situation in a non-linear way.

Now speaking of A and B influences as Gurdjieff refers to them.

Here we see, "that weird ZONE thing happening". Perhaps this is, as Castanneda/don Juan says, "moving the assemblage point". Then we see, "WITHOUT THINKING (clarity), I pulled out a harmonica.... and I started playing a loud and silly tune." Now this would seem, to me, to be "B" influences "that which arise from outside ordinary life, from an esoteric center". As I don't know of any other animal which sings or plays music when threatened, I don't think instinct would be the proper terminology. Music is an abstract creation. The individual notes may be concrete but arranging them into a tune is abstract. So this would not seem to be instinct as we understand it.

Thanks Seekr for trying to explain things to me, I do appreciate the effort! Your first response made it seem so simple, but perhaps therein lies the catch! As you later point out:

Things are never black and white..... unless we are talking Holstein dairy cows or silent movies. That is why it is the situation or the details of any given circumstance that determines right from wrong. This is discernment which is knowing how to apply the knowledge one has.

I'm still struggling! You later point out:

If we do not have the knowledge or ability to help then we have no responsibility.

Is this true?

We will always have some responsibility in life but only in those situations that we have knowledge and ability. As I cannot see anyone having absolutely NO knowledge or ANY ability in ANY situation whatsoever. Not everyone would be expected to have medical knowledge or auto mechanics knowledge or physical strength to help someone in need of those capabilities. So our responsibility would be in situations that we DO have what it takes to help.

With that said, and as it appears from research into our reality, the only purpose in life is lessons. So I would think that one has a "responsibility" to learn as much as possible. That does not mean we will all have PHD's in multiple fields but by networking and sharing the knowledge we have with others we can raise our understanding in many areas exponentially.

I guess I'm concerned about the situation of partial knowledge...because I can't imagine ever completely knowing. Discernment is a tricky thing! What I'm trying to work out is if I think I have enough knowledge and ability to prevent harm to others without also bringing harm to myself, do I get involved despite not understanding the greater scheme of things?

Woodsman also talks about instinct. And again, I don't know much about this either. I have often found my instinct to be a good guide, but is it wise to always rely on it? Or is it something to fall back on when you have no other knowledge?
I think I also have many of the same questions as Buddy. Thanks for pointing out the Helping thread, Buddy, I will read it next. Are there any others that might be worth reading for greater understanding on these issues?

It is important to distinguish between instinct and intuition. Instinct would be programs or automatic REactions, A influences, subjectivity. Intuition would be clarity, B influences, objective action. This world is set in such a way as to keep us in a constant state of reaction with no time to think and take action. We are bombarded by constant obstacles that try to force us to be consumed with worrying about survival, "how to pay the light bill", "do I buy groceries or heating oil" ect. Also "divide and conquer" tactics, such as race, sexual preference, religious differences, so that we may not see the real predator. Then emotions such as guilt, insecurity and anger, when we react to these triggers we simply cause more reactions in others and thus a constant state of chaos. We must step back and distance ourselves from the emotional triggers to be able to see these issues for what they really are, and with objectivity, then take action.

I would like to thank you, Pepperfritz, for contributing to this thread as you have brought some very relevant info, with links I might add. This is VERY helpful in wading through the vast oceans of reading material that is needed to understand things are connect the dots.

As far as anyone having apprehensions about posting questions or responses on the forum. Fear or shyness should not stop you from posting, as this is not the type of forum to ridicule one who is asking. I myself find many times that I don't post because it seems that the question/issue has been addressed already. It can also be very time consuming to write a post in such a way as to communicate my thoughts in a text only medium (no body language, facial expression, tone of voice, ect.) But this is an international forum with people from many cultures, professions, ages and languages, so the simple variation of words that one may use or the way in which they describe a particular issue can differ from person to person. It just may be these little differences that help to bring an issue or concept into focus for another.

As Gurdjieff said, "In the Fourth Way a person can only ascend to a higher step if he puts another on his own step". So we see, it is necessary to participate in networking, in order to advance. We should not expect the administrators to do all work of responding to questions. Knowledge not used or shared, is a step on the STS path.

 

[anart]

Here we see, "that weird ZONE thing happening". Perhaps this is, as Castanneda/don Juan says, "moving the assemblage point". Then we see, "WITHOUT THINKING (clarity), I pulled out a harmonica.... and I started playing a loud and silly tune." Now this would seem, to me, to be "B" influences "that which arise from outside ordinary life, from an esoteric center". As I don't know of any other animal which sings or plays music when threatened, I don't think instinct would be the proper terminology. Music is an abstract creation. The individual notes may be concrete but arranging them into a tune is abstract. So this would not seem to be instinct as we understand it.

Or, it could have been, and likely was, a program - a 'nervous fidget' if you will. Much like beginning to mindlessly hum a tune when nervous or 'whistling past the graveyard'. I see no reason to think it was an influence from an 'esoteric center'. What is an 'esoteric center', by the way? I'm not stating that it absolutely was not something 'higher' - I'm just saying that 'whistling past the graveyard' is a mechanical reaction - much like this likely was as well.

We will always have some responsibility in life but only in those situations that we have knowledge and ability. As I cannot see anyone having absolutely NO knowledge or ANY ability in ANY situation whatsoever. Not everyone would be expected to have medical knowledge or auto mechanics knowledge or physical strength to help someone in need of those capabilities. So our responsibility would be in situations that we DO have what it takes to help.

It appears that you are confusing every day 'responsibility' - like being at your job on time and doing it (which is wholly mechanical) and esoteric Response-ability - which is only possible when one is Real - after having removed programs and mechanical behavior.

It is important to distinguish between instinct and intuition. Instinct would be programs or automatic REactions, A influences, subjectivity. Intuition would be clarity, B influences, objective action.

I don't think that this is necessarily the case, though it could be. Not everything that is perceived as 'intuition' is anything other than old emotional programs running. Also, intuition can be quite subjective - that does not mean that it cannot be objective - but again, the devil is in the details, so making such a categorical statement as you have made here - as if it is fact - is a bit 'off target'.

This world is set in such a way as to keep us in a constant state of reaction with no time to think and take action.

The vast majority of humanity cannot think at all.

We are bombarded by constant obstacles that try to force us to be consumed with worrying about survival, "how to pay the light bill", "do I buy groceries or heating oil" ect. Also "divide and conquer" tactics, such as race, sexual preference, religious differences, so that we may not see the real predator. Then emotions such as guilt, insecurity and anger, when we react to these triggers we simply cause more reactions in others and thus a constant state of chaos. We must step back and distance ourselves from the emotional triggers to be able to see these issues for what they really are, and with objectivity, then take action.

And how are you to know that what you consider yourself to be doing (stepping back and distancing yourself) is actually what you are doing? If you asked the vast majority of people who do not think whether they think or not, they would tell you, 'yes, of course I think!'

Objectivity is not something one can just slip on easily, like a jacket in the afternoon - it is extremely difficult for human beings to even approach an objective understanding of anything - by design. I'm only stating this to make it clear that what you describe as something that should just 'be done' - just decide to think and do it - does not work that way.

We cannot See ourselves - and until one is no longer controlled by mechanical behavior, it cannot be done at all. I don't think you're way off target, I just think that you're making statements as if they are fact, when the devil is very much in the details and the big picture is more complicated than that. fwiw.