The Rapture Myth a Con designed to pay off *after* the arrival of the Wave?

[seekr]

Here we see, "that weird ZONE thing happening". Perhaps this is, as Castanneda/don Juan says, "moving the assemblage point". Then we see, "WITHOUT THINKING (clarity), I pulled out a harmonica.... and I started playing a loud and silly tune." Now this would seem, to me, to be "B" influences "that which arise from outside ordinary life, from an esoteric center". As I don't know of any other animal which sings or plays music when threatened, I don't think instinct would be the proper terminology. Music is an abstract creation. The individual notes may be concrete but arranging them into a tune is abstract. So this would not seem to be instinct as we understand it.

Or, it could have been, and likely was, a program - a 'nervous fidget' if you will. Much like beginning to mindlessly hum a tune when nervous or 'whistling past the graveyard'. I see no reason to think it was an influence from an 'esoteric center'. What is an 'esoteric center', by the way? I'm not stating that it absolutely was not something 'higher' - I'm just saying that 'whistling past the graveyard' is a mechanical reaction - much like this likely was as well.

I was thinking of when Carlos and don Jaun were confronted by the jaguar in the wilderness. I don't quite remember the details of the story but I remember him "shifting the assemblage point" to obtain a different clarity that allowed him to escape harm. I can't say either way if it was or wasn't something higher as I did not experience it myself and even then it would take careful evualtion/reflection to decide. An esoteric center as I understand it is the higher intellectual and emotional centers. I think that information coming from the higher intellectual center would that which one could not have known from "normal" means. But even that doesn't quite explain it properly as there seem to be false channels also. As always, the devil is in the details.

I would have to say that being nervous/scared of a graveyard would be a program in itself as there is no "real" threat simply by it being a depository of bodies. Which would differ from encountering a wild animal/predator in the open.

We will always have some responsibility in life but only in those situations that we have knowledge and ability. As I cannot see anyone having absolutely NO knowledge or ANY ability in ANY situation whatsoever. Not everyone would be expected to have medical knowledge or auto mechanics knowledge or physical strength to help someone in need of those capabilities. So our responsibility would be in situations that we DO have what it takes to help.

It appears that you are confusing every day 'responsibility' - like being at your job on time and doing it (which is wholly mechanical) and esoteric Response-ability - which is only possible when one is Real - after having removed programs and mechanical behavior.

I wasn't referring to one's occupation when I listed the knowledge examples. I should have elaborated a little more. One may have first aid training but not necessarily be a medic. You don't have to be a mechanic to be able to stop and change a flat tire for a stranded motorist that may be unable to do so themselves. Or you may be physically capable of something that another in need of is not. Such as helping your neighbor remove fallen trees after a storm. Or you may have no knowledge of gardening but that doesn't mean that you could not lend your physical capabilities to help an elderly neighbor, that has always planted a garden in the past but is unable to because of a recent ailment. In such a case you may have no idea how to plant a garden but with the gardening neighbor's knowledge and your strong back, you could do the labor of tilling and planting the garden at your neighbor's direction. Your neighbor may then be able to maintain it during the growing season with minimal physical strength. Then come harvest time you may lend your physical strength to labor intensive work at the direction of the gardener. Or you may be the elderly gardener and unable to plant one yourself but you could teach your young neighbors the knowledge you have if they wished to learn.

I agree that we must remove programs so that we can give simply for the reason of giving(STO) and not because it makes us feel needed or important(STS). The "savior" or "knight in shining armor" are definitely programs that we must recognize and dispose of if we are to ever give for the right reasons. The same goes for giving to get in return.

It is important to distinguish between instinct and intuition. Instinct would be programs or automatic REactions, A influences, subjectivity. Intuition would be clarity, B influences, objective action.

I don't think that this is necessarily the case, though it could be. Not everything that is perceived as 'intuition' is anything other than old emotional programs running. Also, intuition can be quite subjective - that does not mean that it cannot be objective - but again, the devil is in the details, so making such a categorical statement as you have made here - as if it is fact - is a bit 'off target'.

Agreed

This world is set in such a way as to keep us in a constant state of reaction with no time to think and take action.

The vast majority of humanity cannot think at all.

I so naively overlooked this point. I just assumed that if one is even asking the question of one's ability to think and actively pursuing the Work, that they had some ability to think.

We are bombarded by constant obstacles that try to force us to be consumed with worrying about survival, "how to pay the light bill", "do I buy groceries or heating oil" ect. Also "divide and conquer" tactics, such as race, sexual preference, religious differences, so that we may not see the real predator. Then emotions such as guilt, insecurity and anger, when we react to these triggers we simply cause more reactions in others and thus a constant state of chaos. We must step back and distance ourselves from the emotional triggers to be able to see these issues for what they really are, and with objectivity, then take action.

And how are you to know that what you consider yourself to be doing (stepping back and distancing yourself) is actually what you are doing? If you asked the vast majority of people who do not think whether they think or not, they would tell you, 'yes, of course I think!'

Objectivity is not something one can just slip on easily, like a jacket in the afternoon - it is extremely difficult for human beings to even approach an objective understanding of anything - by design. I'm only stating this to make it clear that what you describe as something that should just 'be done' - just decide to think and do it - does not work that way.

We cannot See ourselves - and until one is no longer controlled by mechanical behavior, it cannot be done at all. I don't think you're way off target, I just think that you're making statements as if they are fact, when the devil is very much in the details and the big picture is more complicated than that. fwiw.

Yes. I didn't intend to over simplify the Work and perhaps failed to even clarify that what I was referring to was in context to the Work. We can not do anything objectively 'til will have cleaned the machine of programs and through ever vigilant efforts to awaken and then to remain awake and objective. I was more referring the questions that were asked of my last post (12 posts back)

I thought Pepperfritz had done a wonderful job on stressing the details and aspects of the beginning the Work and and how to begin to clean the machine to obtain objectivity. So I didn't go into detail on that part of it, as I thought it had been covered.


(I'm not sure what I did wrong to make this entire post appear in blue?)


Laura: You had one too many "quote" codes. I found and removed it.

 

[anart]

Hi Seekr, your emphasizing of 'without thinking' in the first section of your post does not indicate that it was not a wholly mechanical reaction. ALL mechanical behavior is done without thinking.

I also think that before you conclude that someone has 'shifted their assemblage point' that you need to fully understand - and explain - exactly what that is and what it means (not using the words of Don Juan). In other words, what does that mean in real - day to day life - language? (hint:Don Juan was a fictional character...)

An esoteric center as I understand it is the higher intellectual and emotional centers. I think that information coming from the higher intellectual center would that which one could not have known from "normal" means.

You have greatly confused the idea of the higher centers. Perhaps a re-reading of Mouravieff to come to a better understanding would help. Reflexive or mechanical behaviors and actions do not 'come from the higher centers'.

I would have to say that being nervous/scared of a graveyard would be a program in itself as there is no "real" threat simply by it being a depository of bodies. Which would differ from encountering a wild animal/predator in the open.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion at hand, other than you seem to think that I was comparing the situation to walking past a graveyard - I was not. I was comparing the mechanical behavior of whistling while frightened. Hopefully that clarifies.

I wasn't referring to one's occupation when I listed the knowledge examples. I should have elaborated a little more.

No, actually, you are taking me literally when I was speaking in metaphor.

One may have first aid training but not necessarily be a medic. You don't have to be a mechanic to be able to stop and change a flat tire for a stranded motorist that may be unable to do so themselves. Or you may be physically capable of something that another in need of is not. Such as helping your neighbor remove fallen trees after a storm. Or you may have no knowledge of gardening but that doesn't mean that you could not lend your physical capabilities to help an elderly neighbor, that has always planted a garden in the past but is unable to because of a recent ailment. In such a case you may have no idea how to plant a garden but with the gardening neighbor's knowledge and your strong back, you could do the labor of tilling and planting the garden at your neighbor's direction. Your neighbor may then be able to maintain it during the growing season with minimal physical strength. Then come harvest time you may lend your physical strength to labor intensive work at the direction of the gardener. Or you may be the elderly gardener and unable to plant one yourself but you could teach your young neighbors the knowledge you have if they wished to learn.

You have just spent quite a few words describing, in a meandering way, exactly what I meant by 'getting to your job on time and doing it' as regards responsibility. There is a difference between A influence responsibility and response-ability that comes with Being. Are you at all familiar with the work of Gurdjieff? Also, how much of the 'Work' section on the forum have you had a chance to read?

I agree that we must remove programs so that we can give simply for the reason of giving(STO) and not because it makes us feel needed or important(STS).

Nope. It has very little to nothing to do with STO and STS - it has to do with awakening and Being, thus being able to Do anything at all. As 3D human beings on planet Earth, we are STS and there's no getting around that - the most we can be from this 'starting point' is STO candidates. It seems you are quite seriously confusing and mixing several topics and lines of thought together, which is resulting in word salad. This is fine and understandable, if you are willing to do the work necessary to come to some clarity on these topics. Again, hopefully this clarifies a bit - apologies if it has just further confused the issue.

 

[seekr]

As 3D human beings on planet Earth, we are STS and there's no getting around that - the most we can be from this 'starting point' is STO candidates.

I understand this point or so I thought I did.

It seems you are quite seriously confusing and mixing several topics and lines of thought together, which is resulting in word salad. This is fine and understandable, if you are willing to do the work necessary to come to some clarity on these topics. Again, hopefully this clarifies a bit - apologies if it has just further confused the issue.

Word salad??? Thanks for pointing this out. That's what the forum is for, OSIT.

I guess it's back to the books for me and more cleaning of the machine. Work, Work, Work ;)

 

[anart]

I guess it's back to the books for me and more cleaning of the machine. Work, Work, Work ;)

And posting, right? Since it all goes together... ;)

 

[Woodsman]

[quote author=anart]
Or, it could have been, and likely was, a program - a 'nervous fidget' if you will. Much like beginning to mindlessly hum a tune when nervous or 'whistling past the graveyard'. I see no reason to think it was an influence from an 'esoteric center'. What is an 'esoteric center', by the way? I'm not stating that it absolutely was not something 'higher' - I'm just saying that 'whistling past the graveyard' is a mechanical reaction - much like this likely was as well.
[/quote]
[quote author=seekr]
I was thinking of when Carlos and don Jaun were confronted by the jaguar in the wilderness. I don't quite remember the details of the story but I remember him "shifting the assemblage point" to obtain a different clarity that allowed him to escape harm. I can't say either way if it was or wasn't something higher as I did not experience it myself and even then it would take careful evualtion/reflection to decide. An esoteric center as I understand it is the higher intellectual and emotional centers. I think that information coming from the higher intellectual center would that which one could not have known from "normal" means.
this is interesting
[/quote]

The event with the dogs and the harmonica happened to me around 15 years ago, and so going back to the original instance will result in memory bugs I suspect, however, I have made an attempt to revisit the scene to work out more about the reactions which were experienced.

One point is that the harmonica was a relatively new fascination for me at the time. It was the first one I'd ever owned. It might have been about 10 months old. I know that I carried it with me sometimes, but it wasn't until I was backpacking around Europe that it was on my person all the time. Even then, pulling it from my pocket to play was still a novelty, and indeed one which took work, "I must practice now." rather than an automatic comfort reaction akin to nervous humming.

Although, it WAS a novelty. I think a better possibility is that I was 'showing' it to the dogs. --The things which I felt made me unique and special were, I think, also a kind of defense mechanism. "See, alpha male, keeper of the tribe, I have value. Please don't hurt me." This wasn't my direct thinking at the time, however. It felt more like a happy surprise which caught both me and the dogs off guard.

As for assemblage points moving. . . I don't recall that happening in the Castaneda books without enormous work on the part of Carlos or direct help from Don Juan or Don Genaro(sp?). I also understand that an assemblage point move will often have the effect of altering one's perception of reality in a very significant manner. This was not the case with the dogs; the changes in our behaviors was significant, but they were changes which were able to exist within the normal mode of reality which was present at the time. Although, in the Castaneda works, Fear was always considered a strong catalyst. While I was certainly afraid, it was a more contained fear and not the kind of white-panic which seemed to accompany Carlos in many of his significant moments.

 

[seekr]

I guess it's back to the books for me and more cleaning of the machine. Work, Work, Work ;)

And posting, right? Since it all goes together... ;)

Yes, mustn't forget that.

Although, it WAS a novelty. I think a better possibility is that I was 'showing' it to the dogs. --The things which I felt made me unique and special were, I think, also a kind of defense mechanism. "See, alpha male, keeper of the tribe, I have value. Please don't hurt me." This wasn't my direct thinking at the time, however. It felt more like a happy surprise which caught both me and the dogs off guard.

Reminds me of in the movies, when the guy finds himself surrounded by tribal primitives and shows them his radio or cigarette lighter to break the tension. :D