The sources of the Napoleonic Code and its links with the Book (Sharia)

Esote said:
Laura said:
Yozilla said:
Laura said:
Fascinating. I'll have to look into it more deeply when I have time. Meantime, hope others will do some research on this; it might explain why French law is so bizarre.

... maybe cause they always want to do everything opposite to everybody else (particularly the British and American) ... logic does not count when spite is playing a mayor role ... They are Mediteranians after all - emotions prior to common sense

There might be something in that, Napoleon coming from Corsica and all that. What a snow job!

Sorry but this case is much more political than anything else.

But what drives politics? Answer: generally either emotions or pathology and sometimes the two combine in interesting ways.

Esote said:
And please, get beyond this kind of clichés ! Do you believe in them or is it just for fun ?

Both. Rather often, clichés express deep truths.


Esote said:
Know what ? Opposition to "the British and American" might even be real common sense ! :pirate: :offtopic: ;)

Except that there is almost NO common sense in France. Despite the great admiration expressed for rationality, I've seen little BUT emotion driven thinking here, pretending to be "scientific." But it's not really the fault of the French; the child-rearing practices and education system here is truly something right out of the Dark Ages.
 
Laura said:
Except that there is almost NO common sense in France. Despite the great admiration expressed for rationality, I've seen little BUT emotion driven thinking here, pretending to be "scientific." But it's not really the fault of the French; the child-rearing practices and education system here is truly something right out of the Dark Ages.

I would say almost exactly the same about America and wherever on this planet nowadays...

We are into generalizations, caricatures and clichés here, mainly relating to intellectuals and officials.

Real life with real people, in the countryside particularly, is not quite the same.

Really that bad? Well, part of it at least, okay. But only as far as one can see, as one really knows its surroundings, and itself of course.
I'd rather make fun of it, humor is so important.
Anyone for a joke?
 
Laura said:
Esote said:
Know what ? Opposition to "the British and American" might even be real common sense ! :pirate: :offtopic: ;)
Except that there is almost NO common sense in France. Despite the great admiration expressed for rationality, I've seen little BUT emotion driven thinking here, pretending to be "scientific." But it's not really the fault of the French; the child-rearing practices and education system here is truly something right out of the Dark Ages.

I found something enough interesting regarding the education system in French... by reading "En finir avec Pasteur, un siècle de mystification scientifique" - Dr Eric Ancelet (Finish it with Pasteur, one century of scientific mystification) - Editions Médecine et Société, collection Resurgence.
http://www.amazon.fr/Pour-finir-avec-Pasteur-mystification/dp/2872110259

You gonna tell me, what is this? How Pasteur and French educational system can be work together?

This book was edited at first ten years ago, this one is the fourth increased edition, 2010.
I gonna try to translate this part which gives an interesting way to understand the mass people conditioning by school... But at first, I gonna translate the back cover for explaining the point of the book:

This book is for everyone! Researchers, doctors, therapists, educators, teachers, parents, persons in charge of the health of the present and future generations. The vaccinologie, the iron of lance of the preventive medicine, knows at present a decisive crisis. With her, it is all the modern medicine, stemming from pasteuriens dogmae, that is confronted with its paradoxes and from then on questioned. From the present work, a question many a time composed, many a time evaded, and has it is necessary to us to dare at the moment all the implications:
Did Pasteur make a mistake?
If it is not the case, how to explain the collapse generalized by the immunity, the allergies, the autoimmune pathologies, the AIDS, the new viruses, the new epidemics?
Would we have been on the wrong track?
At the age of 46, Louis Pasteur is a victim of an intellectual attack which makes him hemiplegic for the remainder of the days. He is 55 years old when he begins his searches on the "germs" that he will consider only responsible human and animal diseases. If it turns out that the systematic and compulsory vaccination was not able to and can never reach(affect) its official objective of health for all, then maybe let us owe see again humbly our copy and concern the vaccination a new glance. [...]

Pages 77 & 78
In the first quater of the 19e Century, the Europe appears hardly from four centuries of horror. The sanitary state of the country is absolutely pitiful. The big epidemics, vectors of which we still ignore, constitute the obsession of the starving populations. The cholera, the plague or the smallpox appear regularly and without preventing, on the heels of armies in the field, everywhere where pile up the hollow stomachs. The already considerable poverty, is going to deteriorate because of the urbanization and of the industrialization. A massive drift from the land pulls thousands of families discouraged in the most unhealthy districts of the big cities. This proletariat benefits from no material help. There is then no hygiene, no water conveyance or of sewers, no structure of medical and social mutual aid. Let us dream that in this period, a child on five is abandoned by his parents! In these conditions, it is not surprising that the infectious diseases made devastation.

It is only from 1870 when Western Europe was considered shielded from the plague: if it makes deaths in Paris and Marseille in 1920, the last big epidemic already dates 1720 (Marseille). The cholera is in France from 1830 till 1884: 13,000 deaths in Paris for only year of 1832 (Pasteur is ten years old), 20,000 in 1849 while Pasteur works on crystals. The country will be cleared only in 1884. Let us note that these two diseases declined without vaccines. But there is also a tuberculosis, which between 1830 and 1880 will make more victims than the cholera; The syphilis, the very wide-spread sexually transmitted disease in Europe from the 16th century; The malaria, which in 19th century is still endemic in France; And of course, the smallpox, still unchecked in spite of the vaccination of Jenner. To overcome these "God's plagues" would thus constitute an immense scientific victory, because the Church was able nothing to make there!

Scientific but also political and social Victoire, because the last century is a period particularly disturbed on these two backgrounds. France is torn between the Empire and the restored monarchy, again the Empire and finally the difficult return in a republic eager to base its legitimacy. There will be the riots of 1830 and 1848, then the war of 1870, the military collapse, with for consequence an aggravated nationalism which is going to have to let off stream on grounds of battle others than servicemen, in particular the scientific rivalries. It will be the case with German Liebig for the fermentations and German Koch for the infectious diseases. For the young republic, the new Lights of the scientism constitute the best support of the secularism, under reserve however of an early conditioning of the masses. The principle of the "free and compulsory" school is generalized by Jules Ferry in the 1880s. Which is the objective of this education in which nobody can escape, otherwise " to inculcate to all the citizens the values of the dominant elites, in particular that of the faith in the scientific and technical progress" (Ref 9).

It is by this way that will be set up diverse civic obligations, as the vaccinal obligation, which locks any individual creativity in the yoke of rules and habits which it would be improper to question. "Poured into the mould of the industrial society, designed at the same time to answer its technical needs and to assure the reproduction of its social connections, the school conveyed its standards and its values: a sense of the national solidarity often pushed until the chauvinism; a respect for institutions and for civil and military elites, which populated them; Once in the progress and in the science. More profoundly, it worked in the broadcasting of its way of thinking: Taste of the precision and the exactness, but also intellectual rigidity and love of the formalism, the linear and mechanistic reasoning. In brief, it privileged sharply the qualities of order and method to the detriment of the creative faculties, which, we know it since, do not put on the same intellectual zones" (Ref 9).

The same reflection brings the philosopher Krishnamurti to write: "if we were educated only to be people of the sciences, academics plunged into volumes, or specialists of miscellaneous knowledge, we contribute to the destruction and to the poverty of the world as long as the education will not cultivate a complete view of the life, it will have only not enough value". The school "encourage to conform to some model", what is absurd because "the ignoramus is not the one who misses learning, but the one who does not know himself, (who does not have) the perception of the totality of its own psychological process" (Ref 9). In the heart of our current preoccupations, the failures of the education are to be put in parallel with those of the scientific medicine, because they recover from the same doctrinal bases. It is not surprising that a paternalistic system, a negative of the feminine values, favored the emergence of a medicine technician incapable to establish a link with the subjective lived of the patient. The analphabetism and the immunosuppression are both faces of the same reality: to sick society, sick medicine!

From then on, all 19th century will be filled with the confrontation of the "vitalisme" and with a hard-line materialism to lead. The vitalisme is a philosophic doctrine which stipulates that the demonstrations of the soul and the body, or if we prefer of the psyche and the soma, are determined "from the outside" by a "vital principle", mostly likened to a transcendent divinity, later reconceptualised in the "that" of the psychoanalysts. In the time which occupies us, the ideas of Pasteur or Darwin are going to serve the cause of a determinedly atheistic rationalism, become today a real scientific obscurantism...
Ref 9: Olivier Clouzot, Trialectique, évolution and éducation

Laura said:
Esote said:
And please, get beyond this kind of clichés ! Do you believe in them or is it just for fun ?
Both. Rather often, clichés express deep truths.

Page 78
...It is not the place here to formulate hypotheses on this blunt refusal of an immaterial principle, this will of the scholars to cut any link with the philosophy and the metaphysics. We shall say that it is "fashionable", expression which as many proverbs and adages conceals a very big depth.
 
I forgot to specify that Dr Eric Ancelet is a veterinary doctor who was excluded of the Order of the Veterinarians further to the publication of its book. He is a psychotherapist and a speaker today.
 
From your excerpt, MK Scarlett, this is a very interesting book. I basically agree with the idea of an obscurantist system in France (even though many things changed since the sixties).

But does that mean it's somehow an exception?
What about the North American way of life, with the need for quite a few more planets in order to sustain it, etc. etc.?
And the South American system of land-owners and mafias? Or may be the Indian system of casts? Better with Russia, in China, anywhere?

I am African and American, Arab and European, Asiatic and... I am Human!
Our differences are superficial. When we see the straw in the eye of our neighbor, we usually don't see the beam in our own...

There is no need to focus on a supposedly terrible evil system in France, any more than everywhere else IMO.
 
Esote said:
There is no need to focus on a supposedly terrible evil system in France, any more than everywhere else IMO.

The point is to bring to light the evil systems everywhere, and France is no exception, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you that we do so.
 
anart said:
Esote said:
There is no need to focus on a supposedly terrible evil system in France, any more than everywhere else IMO.

The point is to bring to light the evil systems everywhere, and France is no exception, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you that we do so.

Yeah, what's been done is a close examination of HOW each evil system works for a long time on this forum.
 
anart said:
The point is to bring to light the evil systems everywhere, and France is no exception, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you that we do so.

If you read what I wrote it doesn't make me uncomfortable

SeekinTruth said:
Yeah, what's been done is a close examination of HOW each evil system works for a long time on this forum.

Well, then it's alright.
From what I read, I just had an idea that France was the worst system.

I haven't been for a long time on this forum...
 
Esote said:
From what I read, I just had an idea that France was the worst system.

As has been noted it's just the specific system in question, there are national variances of behaviour to be noted behind clichès. Perhaps have a look at the discussion that ensues after august session about midways in thread.
 
Esote said:
From your excerpt, MK Scarlett, this is a very interesting book. I basically agree with the idea of an obscurantist system in France (even though many things changed since the sixties).

Great to read that. Even if I am not exactly agree with you about the second sentence. I am not sure that so many things changed since sixties, it could only be an appearence. Actually, I am almost sure about this, but I have to learn more about it.

Esote said:
But does that mean it's somehow an exception?
What about the North American way of life, with the need for quite a few more planets in order to sustain it, etc. etc.?
And the South American system of land-owners and mafias? Or may be the Indian system of casts? Better with Russia, in China, anywhere?

I am African and American, Arab and European, Asiatic and... I am Human!
Our differences are superficial. When we see the straw in the eye of our neighbor, we usually don't see the beam in our own...

Esote, as explained by anart, SeekinTruth and parallèles, the point here is not to focus on a specific country. Actually, it is not my fault if Louis Pasteur is French isn't it? And to be honest with you, I am myself born in France and live in this beautiful country... I would not be honest if I did not start by scrutinize my own fellow countrymen, and because the French is my mother tongue, it is normal to me to start by read French books who talk about a French man, especially if this man built one of the biggest lie in these last centuries.
And I am not very proud about what I am discovering across my readings here on the forum, elsewhere on Web or in books, especially when I realise, for example about Louis Pasteur, that an essential person in the History of this country, but also a historic person by all his "discovers" mean. A person known as a heroe here in France, someone who cannot be contested, someone who was a liar, who had a mischievous streak and worse, someone who gave a total wrong way in the health.

So, the point here is to focus on the reality and how this reality is able to affect us all around the world! Because as you, I think we are humans before to be English, Chinese, or French. It is not about France which would be the worse country in the World, it is by looking for the truth and understanding it that we will be able to discover something else, something hidden. Understand why it was hidden, by whom it was hidden, when and why. It is about put things in perspective, have an overview to better conceive of the way to be followed.

Esote said:
There is no need to focus on a supposedly terrible evil system in France, any more than everywhere else IMO.

We need anything which could give us an understanding of our environment, close or not. And I never supposed there was a terrible evil system in France, but we have something like that here, like elsewhere. Not the worse and not the best. What is worse and best? With regard to what? To answer this question, we have to know the truth, and it is for why I am here, at least. :halo:
 
Yes, MK Scarlett, it is about looking for the truth, no matter where that leads.

And thanks for posting about Louis Pasteur. He was a vile pathological, a master manipulator and liar, a plagiarist, and a scientific hack. And the damage he has caused cannot be underestimated (or overestimated), just like the damage all pathological types cause.
 
parallel said:
As has been noted it's just the specific system in question, there are national variances of behaviour to be noted behind clichès. Perhaps have a look at the discussion that ensues after august session about midways in thread.

Thank you parallel for your link.

It does make sense to me. I particularly like this from Laura:

"...the Americans and the French are neck and neck in the race for obnoxiousness... We are sick of nationalities and the programmed way each government "raises" their people to be "good and obedient little citizens." ... Of course, this is just generalizing things; there are place and event and people specific differences everywhere."

And the post from Belibaste is quite interesting.


MK Scarlett, I can only agree with you. Thank you for sharing.
 
SeekinTruth said:
Yes, MK Scarlett, it is about looking for the truth, no matter where that leads.

And thanks for posting about Louis Pasteur. He was a vile pathological, a master manipulator and liar, a plagiarist, and a scientific hack. And the damage he has caused cannot be underestimated (or overestimated), just like the damage all pathological types cause.

For Dr Eric Ancelet Louis Pasteur was a paranoiac tyrant... No doubt there are too much as him, anywhere. I guess pathological types are maybe not specifically humans... Aren't they? :shock:

There are so many information in this book that I have ants in fingers just by wanting share what I am reading.
 
For added research, if you're not familiar with Claude Bernard, a contemporary of Pasteur, you may want to read about some of his contributions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Bernard
He was definitely on the right track and it is interesting to see how his discoveries were derailed by Pasteur and his followers. Although it's been said that just before his death in 1895, Pasteur, father of the Germ Theory of Disease, said to his friend Professor Renon: "Bernard was right, the germ is nothing, the milieu is everything." Perhaps this was a sincere change of heart for Pasteur at the end of his life, but it of course was not enough to undo the damage his work caused the field of medicine nor change 'business as usual' for PTB.

[Added] Another link to check: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,5069.0.html
 
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