USA heading for Destruction

[quote author=griffin]That's based upon an underlying assumption that the dynamics of asteroids and comets in the solar system are purely natural, physical processes[/quote]

This assumption is premised on the view that fundamentally the cosmos is separate from consciousness. It precludes the physical as integrally part of a hyperdimensional framework, making it something that needs to be ‘acted upon’ :

[quote author=griffin]then we can return cosmic bombardment to the set of possibilities, but directed by some higher intelligence.[/quote]

There is another view however, not without significant evidence - that the universe is Alive and Intelligent -

A living system capable of intelligent maintenance.
 
I'm really glad that Robert Fordisto started this thread. I've been wondering about that comment for years.

I don't think that any society can survive if the following conditions are prevalent:

1. If a country begins to destroy its infrastructure. Public education, roads, bridges, the
post office, the government and industry infiltration of colleges and university,
the introduction of genetically modified seeds and their cross pollination of
native crops, seedless plants, bisphenol-A, pharmaceutical drugs, the breakdown of the
family, the corporate takeover in all things, the increasing hours and lessening pay
of U.S. workers, the loss of pensions, the housing crisis and homelessness, the increase
of bullying in schools, the changes in brain chemistry due to t.v. watching and internet
use. The ceding of national sovereignty to multinational corporations. Irrevocable
environmental destruction.

2. All of this is caused by an attack on the truth on all things. If a culture is based on
lies, how can it not collapse? The housing market was a lie. Education "reform" was
a lie. Student loans are a lie. Derivative trading is a lie. The promises of politicians
are all lies.

One can only build a life and a society on the knowledge one has. If the facts that make up that knowledge are lies or half lies, there is no way of accessing reality.

I just walk around wearing a mantle of dread. Sometimes I can take it off for awhile, but never for long.

I think it took a while to get where we are right now, and we're not at the worst yet. So maybe in 2008 we crossed the line by the sheer number of lies by which the U.S. population as a society was accepting as fact. If so, those lies led to actions which can not be taken back and though they are believed, the universe has its own inexorable laws which are not controlled by the lies of pathological societies.
 
Well put webglider. I’ve had similar thoughts that if a complex system such as society or an economy becomes built on lies, like the one we have today in the US, that eventually the lies and actions people take based on those lies will reach a critical level and the system will start to implode. And this directly relates to the main reason for and propagation of those lies being the take over of of the complex system by psychopaths as described in ‘Political Ponerology’.
 
Jerry said:
[quote author=griffin]That's based upon an underlying assumption that the dynamics of asteroids and comets in the solar system are purely natural, physical processes

This assumption is premised on the view that fundamentally the cosmos is separate from consciousness. It precludes the physical as integrally part of a hyperdimensional framework, making it something that needs to be ‘acted upon’ :

[quote author=griffin]then we can return cosmic bombardment to the set of possibilities, but directed by some higher intelligence.[/quote]

There is another view however, not without significant evidence - that the universe is Alive and Intelligent -

A living system capable of intelligent maintenance.
[/quote]

The idea that 'creation' or 'the universe' or 'the living system' is intelligent is compelling. Consider these images for example:

article-2216091-15730C77000005DC-365_470x697.jpg


article-2216091-15730D1E000005DC-508_964x641.jpg


article-2216091-15730D33000005DC-225_470x697.jpg


Are we going to ascribe a level of intelligence to these insects, as independent beings, where they consciously decided to camouflage themselves in this impressive way by considering the shape, texture and colour of leaves and trees and realising that their predators do not eat leaves and trees and therefore they should take on a similar shape, colour etc?

Or is it more likely that another broader evolutionary intelligence informed that process and it manifested through these insects in order to further the primary goal of the living system?
 
Perceval said:
...
Are we going to ascribe a level of intelligence to these insects, as independent beings, where they consciously decided to camouflage themselves in this impressive way by considering the shape, texture and colour of leaves and trees and realising that their predators do not eat leaves and trees and therefore they should take on a similar shape, colour etc?

Or is it more likely that another broader evolutionary intelligence informed that process and it manifested through these insects in order to further the primary goal of the living system?

Yup, it does sound more likely... And the more knowledge we have of the broader evolutionary information process, the more conscious we are.
Psychopaths have their role in this system, also allowing us to progress, somehow like the Bolshevik revolution did with Gurdjieff and the people engaged in the Work at this time, "not from the point of view of 'facts', but from the point of view of esoteric principles" (In Search of the Miraculous, Ouspensky)
 
Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system? Looking at these animals it seems to be "adapt to survive". So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators? Or at the human level is it all about free will?
 
Perceval said:
Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system? Looking at these animals it seems to be "adapt to survive". So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators? Or at the human level is it all about free will?

Great question!
An indirect answer could be that if we were able to objectively accept the universe as it sees itself, we would be aligning with the universal creative energy, thus we might get the free will to bring some order in the surrounding chaos and defeat our predators...
What a responsibility! (the etymology of this word being: to be able to respond, ie. to answer)

Here is a link to an excellent video, about escaping or not from the informations we sent in our future space-time :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP59tQf_njc
 
Perceval said:
Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system? Looking at these animals it seems to be "adapt to survive". So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators? Or at the human level is it all about free will?

Ahh Perceval! This is good.

Seriously, I don't really know how to anwser this.

Hummm, what if both are part of the anwser? What if all the tools are all there, within nature itself, but that we need to become aware of it and chose to use them accordignly (by our own free will)?

Interesting thinking here indeed!

Peace.
 
quote by Perceval:

So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators? Or at the human level is it all about free will?

As I was pondering over how to respond your question , I felt drawn to the last chapter of The Wave and these words of Laura's which I first read so long ago and which touched me so deeply. I think they may provide an answer to your question and more:

vour individual lives are the manifestations of some great intelligence. Proof of this is found in the fact that our lives have no meaning whatsoever apart from the process of acquiring knowledge. And a thoughtful man ceases to feel painfully the absence of meaning in life only when he realizes this and begins to strive consciously in the direction he was unconsciously following before.

Moreover, this acquisition of knowledge, which constitutes our function in the world, is achieved not only by our intellect, but by our whole organism, all our body, all our life and the whole life of the human society, by its organizations, institutions, the whole culture and the whole civilization, by all we know in humankind and even more so by what we do not know. And we get to know that which we deserve to know.

If we say about the intellectual side of man that its purpose is the acquisition of knowledge, this will not evoke any doubt. All are agreed that man’s intellect, with all its subordinate functions, exists for the purpose of acquiring knowledge, although very often the faculty of knowledge is regarded as subordinate. But as regards the emotions: joy, sorrow, anger, fear, love, hate, pride, compassion, jealousy, as regards the sense of beauty, aesthetic sense and artistic creation, as regards moral sense, as regards all religious emotions, faith, hope, veneration and so on, as regards all human activity, things are not so clear. As a rule, we do not see that all emotions and all human activity serve knowledge.

Usually the emotional is opposed to the intellectual: “heart” is opposed to “reason.” Cold reason or intellect is placed on one side, and on the other side: feelings, emotions, artistic sense; then, again quite separately, moral sense, religious feeling, ‘spirituality.’

The misunderstanding here lies in the interpretation of the words intellect and emotion.

Spirituality is not something opposed to “intellectuality” or “emotionality.” It is only their higher flight. Reason has no bounds.

In a man the growth of reason consists in the growth of the intellect and in the accompanying growth of higher emotions: aesthetic, religious, moral – which, as they grow, become more and more intellectualized; moreover, simultaneously with this the intellect becomes impregnated with emotionality and ceases to be “cold.” Thus, “spirituality” is the merging together of the intellect and the higher emotions; the emotions are spiritualized from the intellect.

… Theoretically all emotions serve knowledge; all emotions arise as a consequence of the cognition of one or another thing. … Undoubtedly there are relations which can be known only through fear. A man who has never experienced fear will never understand many things in life and in nature.

The sign of the growth of emotions is their liberation from the personal element and their transition to higher planes. The liberation from personal elements enhances the cognitive power of emotions, because the more personal elements there are in an emotion, the more capable it is of leading into delusion. A personal emotion is always biased, always unfair, if only for the reason that it opposes itself to everything else.

Thus the problem of right emotional knowledge is to feel in relation to people and the world from a point of view other than the personal. And the wider the circle for which a given person feels, the deeper the knowledge which his emotions give.
http://cassiopaea.org/2012/04/01/the-wave-chapter-72-the-nonlinear-dynamics-of-love-and-complex-systems-debugging-the-universe/

And here is another quote which, I think, does answer your question about how to survive against predators.

All beings are, in one way or another, seeking God. And the manner in which we seek determines the type of friendship we have. God is a friend to us in the same way we are a friend to the cosmos. The importance of this statement cannot be overestimated. It is only through knowledge of the meanings behind our experiences and the material world that we can truly discern and divide the essential attributes of any given manifestation so that we can exercise our free will in the direction of those who are known as the “Beautiful Faces of God.” These are the archetypes, or points of focus on the Wave.

How does one obtain truth? How does one cast off the illusions? How does one differentiate between knowledge of light and knowledge that leads to darkness?

This comes from a combination of factors. The first is gaining and gathering knowledge of every form and sort. All sciences and arts are of value in increasing knowledge if they are approached with the intention of preparing a vessel for divine knowledge. For, in truth, all knowledge is divine. The more knowledge you have of the matters of your world, the greater the vessel you have prepared for receiving divine knowledge.

In rereading this, it struck me that knowledge is meant to bring together all the different manifestations of one's own being - the good and the bad - the emotions, the physiology and the intellect.

The more we know, the more we protect ourselves.

This is why lies are so insidious as they give a false map of the territory leading to confusion so that a person or a society cannot protect themselves.
 
[quote author=Perceval]Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system?[/quote]

It seems to me Nature shows us that a living system grows and creates more or dies.

So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that?

Perhaps by contributing to the aim? Humanity contributing to what is creative, choosing through objective knowledge of the cosmos to do what’s best for the all?

Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators?

Possibly so, even if not apparent- are individual cells aware of how the body protects them?

Or at the human level is it all about free will?

Can there be creativity without free will?
 
JayMark said:
Perceval said:
Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system? Looking at these animals it seems to be "adapt to survive". So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators? Or at the human level is it all about free will?

Ahh Perceval! This is good.

Seriously, I don't really know how to anwser this.

Hummm, what if both are part of the anwser? What if all the tools are all there, within nature itself, but that we need to become aware of it and chose to use them accordignly (by our own free will)?

I am inclined to think that they are linked, at this point. Trying to follow Schiller's reasoning, the entirety of the living system's function is to do with the preservation of EI or extraneous information. This information is likely to be "written" in the introns that get edited out when genetic information is being accessed in order to manifest something in the physical world (using the information coded in exons). So, this EI possibly points to the hyper dimensional reality. If exons are the interface for living, or intelligently guided, expression into the physical medium, than is it possible that introns express information relating to the non-physical, and the ability to read said information IS the next evolutionary adaption against predators on the "free will" level? This adaptation, like other complex adaptations in the past (such as organisms able to utilize oxygen), lie dormant until the exact necessary conditions are reached.

So, if what we put into our physical system can alter our genetic expression giving us greater or lesser fitness in the physical plane against physical predation (lion killing a yak) than could the accumulation of free will via the methods espoused in Gurdjieff's teachings be the logically-designed path toward the evolutionary adaptation on the psychic plane which has to do with the interface between lies and truth? This places a distinction between physical predation and psychic predation, physical fitness and psychic fitness. Could the "extraneous information" be the link to higher centers and the non-physical plane, and the guided application of energy via the accumulation of free will in the physical plane eventually triggers the ability for the organism to access and utilize all the coded information at once? I would imagine that this is where "variable physicality" of 4D comes in?

If this is anything near how it works, then "nature" may have coded the possibility of self-awareness into the primary platform to be expressed when conditions are just right shifting the survival imperative from simply physically surviving and shuttling the EI to accumulating free will, making intelligent and organized application of energy possible (against entropy, as Schiller points out), and eventually accessing the EI, which "levels the playing field" when it comes to the identification of STO vs. STS. So, perhaps it is quite literal that once self-reflection was triggered as a survival adaptation than the acceptance or rejection of lies becomes part of the feedback loop that triggers protective processes like programmed cell death. And perhaps this is what America's "imminent destruction" really is about, as others have pointed out here. At a certain point, the system must take out the cells that have maladaptive mutations in order to carry out the system intent and prevent total annihilation/corruption of preserved information. This sort of makes the idea of short-wave vs. long-wave learning cycles a bit clearer in my mind. I mean, if the entirety of physical life's suffering proceeds in order to preserve information that might eventually be accessed and utilized by life itself in order to "level the playing field" against predation, then how could one view this whole process as being about anything other than lessons?

Edit: "entirety of life's suffering" to "entirety of physical life's suffering"
 
Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators?

Thinking about this, in the animal kingdom predators are outside the given species, so a species has predators outside the species. I don't know if in the animal kingdom, the same species becomes a predator to its own species - as it seems true with humans.

Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system?

Don't know, I was thinking in order for human species to survive and grow, that humans must identify inside its own species the differences that make humans multi-species, witch look and function about the same. Where in the animal species, we identify predators by their appearances, we can't rely on that when looking at humans - we attribute archetypes, character traits.
So possibly, one of the main goals is to learn to distinguish - I think the study of evil/ponerology becomes top issue.
 
Jerry said:
Can there be creativity without free will?

The living system itself is creative, obviously. That leaf insect probably evolved without much input from itself or its predecessors, self-reflective being. What I mean is, they didn't consciously interact with the processes of their own evolution. Then again, humans probably didn't either with theirs. At some point, perhaps, individual entities have the chance to play an active, conscious part in their own evolution, in the next step, assuming they have enough consciousness to play that conscious part. Or, perhaps, after a certain point, there is no next step unless it is taken, or chosen, by the entity itself. Otherwise, it just cycles around.
 
Perceval said:
The living system itself is creative, obviously. That leaf insect probably evolved without much input from itself or its predecessors, self-reflective being. What I mean is, they didn't consciously interact with the processes of their own evolution. Then again, humans probably didn't either with theirs. At some point, perhaps, individual entities have the chance to play an active, conscious part in their own evolution, in the next step, assuming they have enough consciousness to play that conscious part. Or, perhaps, after a certain point, there is no next step unless it is taken, or chosen, by the entity itself. Otherwise, it just cycles around.

I like this part. Perhaps there's a level, a point where a next step of the evolution requires a fully-conscious choise to be made by the being itself. And perhaps this step is going from 3D to 4D. Or it could be going from STS to STO as well, which would happen in 4D according to the C's. Or more so, it could even be required for every other step following the first that is consciously made. Lots of avenues here.

Anyhow, good way to unify free will with causality. I bet Darwin didn't see than one coming.
 
Perceval said:
Then the question is: what is one of the primary goals of the living system? Looking at these animals it seems to be "adapt to survive". So if we assume that humans are part of the living system, perhaps the same applies to us. But then question is, how do we do that? Has nature endowed us with an evolutionary mechanism that would allow us to adapt to survive against our predators?

I often wonder if psychopathy isn't an evolutionary step for humanity? At what point do emotions hinder survival in an over populated environment? When do compassion and empathy become a liability?
 

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