V for Vendetta

Finally saw it. Best movie I've seen in many ages. Loved it, and I don't usually go for cartoonish things. It fits in the political thriller, action, and superhero genres. The only serious downside for me was V's violence and his personal, retributive quirk.

I really liked that the totalitarian society was portrayed more realistically than in other films, and especially that the media (shallow as the portrayal was) was portrayed more realistically than I expected. I thought it was unrealistic that the authorities were so short of information, especially in the future, and I didn't think it believable that Stephen Rea's character would "wake up" so openly or easily.

When I heard this morning about the "foiled terror plot" in the UK, I immediately shouted "bollocks!" at the radio. :)
 
Just watched V for Vandetta again .. thought it apt with recent news events. Anyway, a tiny little one liner I newly noticed this time through when Evey brings in Tea to Deitrich:

"Look don't get me wrong, I love it: A cow getting crucified. It's hysterical, but you'll never get it approved..."

You know .. sacred cows, and all that comes with them. :-)
 
(SPOILER ALERT)


I also wanted to point out some things in the movie that got me thinking:

- The 'stage' was prepared for V with the many people that have been trying to get the word out that something is wrong with the way things were in the world where the movie was set. Some of those people include the 'activists' that were Evey's parents.
Another 'activist' is network producer (Gordon Deitrich played by Stephen Fry) that did the parody about the chancellor though it cost him his life. In real life, the producers and hosts of comedy shows that use comedy to critique the absurdity of current news provide this service.
I would imagine that V would have come to the logical conclusion that launching his master plan when the people were not prepared to receive his message would have been a wasted effort.

- I agree with Laura's blog entry (http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/07/v-is-for-vendetta.html) about the conditions being the primary cause that produced a person like V. However, I do not fancy the idea that it would take some similar 'super human' effort to pull of some similar stunt for the 'sheeple' to wake up in real life. In reality, I think it may take much, much more to wake up the 'sheeple', imho.

- My wife and I were talking about the Philippines and how a possibility might manifest itself to bring out the Philippines from the political sinkhole it is mired in right now. The corruption in the Philippine is so prevalent that we imagine that even the most noble of idealists who hope to run for office with the sincere desire to change things for the better would be 'infected' by the corruption or have no choice but to 'follow the herd' i.e. play the game by their rules.
We came up with the idea that the ideal person to 'take on' the Philippine govenment while being the President would be a person without any attachments; no family or friends that can be targeted.
In the movie, V thought up and arranged the whole plan by himself and planned to 'take on' the current government by himself. Then he had the serendipitous meeting with Evey. The government, who was able to 'catch' V and Evey on film, targeted Evey as well because of this 'chance' association.
But in the end, even though V might have survived the whole ordeal long enough to pull the train lever himself for the 'grand finale' he still 'needed' Evey to usher in a new dawn of civilization.

- I think that most people 'in the loop' fancy the idea that many people will wake up one by one and like a 'plague spreading like wildfire' will cause more and more people to wake up. In the movie, even with most of the people somewhat awake or on the brink of waking up, it still took a person/idea like V to serve as a 'rallying point' or a 'point of convergence' to bring the people together and show them that almost everyone is on the same page as they are.
Gordon only had the courage to put a parody of the chancellor on t.v. after meeting up with Evey and having a conversation with her and her experience with V. The little girl with the 'coke bottle glasses' only had the courage of spray painting the V logo on a poster on a wall much later in the movie.
Imho, it may take some similar 'shocking' event to 'push the people over the edge' and wake them up. Some event that they can't tune out (like V's broadcast that everyone would watch and cannot change the channel to 'go back to sleep'; though in the movie, it was depicted that the people were at the point of being 'ready' that they didn't even think about changing the channel and were 'glued to the t.v.' in a manner of speaking).
I fancy the idea that the Signs is like Evey's parents, preparing the way for Evey to grow up and be prepared for the dawn of a new civilization.

I think I have some more points I pondered on but couldn't remember them at the moment. I'll post again when I do.
 
(Major spoiler alert here, but then again its hard to discuss a movie without spoiling it for anyone who havent seen it)


V: Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security, the familiar, the tranquility, repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the annunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance, and depression. And where once you had the freedom to object, think, and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillence coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myraid of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot.


I would just like to point out, even tough I suspect that many of you are internetexperts and know about this that IMDB.com have a quite good Qoute databas.
If you would like to re-read some of the dialog:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes

And while you are browsing the site why not look at the Trivia-section:


The domino scene (where V tips over black and red dominoes to form a giant letter V) involved 22,000 dominoes, was assembled by four professional domino assemblers, and took 200 hours to set up.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/trivia


Hope someone might find this intresting!
 
Just a quick thought for Mr. V that has been on my mind since I watched the movie recently: "A: It should be noted that the STS system can only be penetrated by becoming "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." "

So in regards to this thought above, was V really "gentle as doves" by becoming the judge and executioner in the movie, or is this one of those situations where what he did was contextually the right thing do due to what the people he killed had done to many thousands and thousands of other people.

I mean could this movie be a very subtle trap that suggests to people to "think" that taking arms against the government is going to really change anything when other psychopaths can simply take over after all the major bloodshed? V himself took measures to kill all those psychopaths in the movie so that they can not harm others, but what about the others who can simply take over their positions later on due to the lack of knowledge of pathocray by the massess?

I don't know, just some thoughts that I was mulling over.
 
This subject has exercised me also. I mean, once you truly understand the nature of the psychopath, what to do about it? Once you know that they are truly mad-dog, consciencless killers under a mask of sanity, in a three piece suit, what do you do about it? And most particularly, what do you do about it when they are in positions of almost absolute power?

When you see the scenario as set up in the movie, V for Vendetta, you can see that it is almost exactly the problem we face. How do you get such creatures as that OUT of power? Remember what Lobaczewski wrote about them:

Much too common is the pattern of error which reasons that purportedly autocratic leaders of countries affected by this pathocracy actually possess decision-making powers in areas which they in fact do not. Millions of people, including ministers and members of parliaments, ponder the dilemma of whether such a ruler could not, under certain circumstances, modify his convictions somewhat and relinquish his dreams of conquering the world; they continue hope that this will be the eventual outcome.

People with personal experience in such a system may attempt to persuade them that their dreams, although decent, lack a foundation in reality, but at the same time they sense a lack of concrete arguments on their part. Such an explanation is in fact impossible within the realm of the natural language of psychological concepts; only an objective comprehension of the historical phenomenon and its essentially deviant nature permits light to be shed upon the causes of the perennial deceitfulness of this macrosocial pathological phenomenon.

The actions of this phenomenon affect an entire society, starting with the leaders and infiltrating every village, small town, factory, business, or farm. The pathological social structure gradually covers the entire country, creating a "new class" within that nation. This privileged class of deviants feels permanently threatened by the "others", i.e. by the majority of normal people. Neither do the pathocrats entertain any illusions about their personal fate should there be a return to the system of normal man. [...]

If the laws of normal man were to be reinstated, they and theirs could be subjected to judgment, including a moralizing interpretation of their psychological deviations; they would be threatened by a loss of freedom and life, not merely a loss of position and privilege. Since they are incapable of this kind of sacrifice, the survival of a system which is the best for them becomes a moral imperative.

Such a threat must be battled by means of any and all psychological and political cunning implemented with a lack of scruples with regard to those other "inferior-quality" people that can be shocking in its depravity.

Pathocracy survives thanks to the feeling of being threatened by the society of normal people, as well as by other countries wherein various forms of the system of normal man persist. For the rulers, staying on the top is therefore the classic problem of "to be or not to be". [...]

We can thus formulate a more cautious question: can such a system ever waive territorial and political expansion abroad and settle for its present possessions? What would happen if such a state of affairs ensured internal peace, corresponding order, and relative prosperity within the nation? The overwhelming majority of the country's population would then make skillful use of all the emerging possibilities, taking advantage of their superior qualifications in order to fight for an ever-increasing scope of activities; thanks to their higher birth rate, their power will increase. This majority will be joined by some sons from the privileged class who did not inherit the pathological genes. The pathocracy's dominance will weaken imperceptibly but steadily, finally leading to a situation wherein the society of normal people reaches for power.

This is a nightmare vision to the psychopaths.

Thus, the biological, psychological, moral, and economic destruction of the majority of normal people becomes, for the pathocrats, a "biological" necessity.

Many means serve this end, starting with concentration camps and including warfare with an obstinate, well-armed foe who will devastate and debilitate the human power thrown at him, namely the very power jeopardizing pathocrats rule: the sons of normal man sent out to fight for an illusionary "noble cause." Once safely dead, the soldiers will then be decreed heroes to be revered in paeans, useful for raising a new generation faithful to the pathocracy and ever willing to go to their deaths to protect it. [...]

Pathocracy has other internal reasons for pursuing expansionism through the use of all means possible. As long as that "other" world governed by the systems of normal man exists, it inducts into the non-pathological majority a certain sense of direction. The non-pathological majority of the country's population will never stop dreaming of the reinstatement of the normal man's system in any possible form. This majority will never stop watching other countries, waiting for the opportune moment; its attention and power must therefore be distracted from this purpose, and the masses must be "educated" and channeled in the direction of imperialist strivings. This goal must be pursued doggedly so that everyone knows what is being fought for and in whose name harsh discipline and poverty must be endured. The latter factor - creating conditions of poverty and hardship - effectively limits the possibility of "subversive" activities on the part of the society of normal people.

The ideology must, of course, furnish a corresponding justification for this alleged right to conquer the world and must therefore be properly elaborated. Expansionism is derived from the very nature of pathocracy, not from ideology, but this fact must be masked by ideology. Whenever this phenomenon has been witnessed in history, imperialism was always its most demonstrative quality.
Click to expand...
In short, the objective fact is: Thus, the biological, psychological, moral, and economic destruction of the majority of normal people becomes, for the pathocrats, a "biological" necessity.

That IS their goal.

So, how to deal with that fact? How to deal with it in terms of the future of Free Will and Freedom for All of humanity?
 
Well other than taking over the TV network like in V (which is actually a great idea) the only other way I can think of right now is to inform people, however that has its own issues because if you use words such as ponerology, pathocrats and ponerization people either don't believe it's possible or just nod politely and go about there business. Then there is the issue of the P word. Psychopath is such a loaded word that people automatically assume your refering to a Hannibal Lecter type character.

There is hope though. I was talking to my mother, who is a devout catholic, about adamic and pre adamic races and she was suprisingly really open to the idea, especially the phrase be as wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove when dealing with them.

What I know is this people identify with close ups, the biggest issues in the world mean nothing if you can't illustrate them with people.
 
We just saw V for Vendetta. We loved this movie! It was a beautiful portrayal of a mythic heroic character. Thoroughly inspiring and left us weeping openly in several parts.
What does it take for us to reach that state?? How absurd does the administration have to be before we will all stop running their war machines?

Recently I have seen a few video clips on youtube and google video of wild lions and tigers attacking human hunters. They really creeped me out at first, but then I thought- what is wrong with a lion just being his own self? Then there was one of a deer turning on a hunter and really giving him hell with his hoofs. It seemed like an analogy for the "powers that be" and little old us. We are not as helpless as we have thought. We are not confined to "preaching to the choir". I have always been a confirmed pacifist. I have always thought I could never fight in a war, even if it was "just" and I was simply defending myself. The movie V stirred something in me. The possibility that I COULD fight. In that sense it challenged my beliefs to the core.

Maybe all this is leading up to us transcending duality. In that case, we are indebted to these "powers that be", in a sense. They are a key part of this racheting up of human consciousness. It all makes me think of the quote attributed (I think) to the mythical Jesus. Love your enemies. I used to think it meant love them in the hopes of winning them over to your side. Maybe it means love them because we need them. That good and evil are two halves of a ladder we are climbing towards unity consciousness.

Tell me I'm full of shit, I'm just trying to construct some myth, some way to understand what we are going through here. I would love some help, feedback.

pete
 
I thought the last domino was representative of the inspector. He could have gone either way, but in the end he choose to let evey push the button and detonate parliment. He could have shot and killed her, but that would have been the only way he could have stopped her.
 
pete, about "fighting back," it depends on what you mean. Don't forget that V, and probably all of those lions, tigers, and deer that "fought back" (in the physical way they did) met with earthly demise at the hands of the oppressive powers for their brand of defiance. Sure, maybe all of them were "ready to move on" in some sense, but I think the lesson is clear.

IMO, V wasn't wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove. Resultingly, he did not "penetrate" the control system, but rather took it on in a direct and largely physical way, which made a splash and stirred a lot of sleeping people, but the movie ends before we can learn what would have happened next, OSIT.
 
I was going over the threads that I had posted to to see what was new and I went over and read the continued discussion in the V for Vendetta thread.

Laura had written in this thread:
(http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=623&p=4)
Laura said:
This subject has exercised me also. I mean, once you truly understand the nature of the psychopath, what to do about it? Once you know that they are truly mad-dog, consciencless killers under a mask of sanity, in a three piece suit, what do you do about it? And most particularly, what do you do about it when they are in positions of almost absolute power?

<snipped for brevity>

In short, the objective fact is: Thus, the biological, psychological, moral, and economic destruction of the majority of normal people becomes, for the pathocrats, a "biological" necessity.

That IS their goal.

So, how to deal with that fact? How to deal with it in terms of the future of Free Will and Freedom for All of humanity?
Click to expand...
I was mulling over this idea and I thought to myself that getting rid of the whole population would not be so 'smart' for the psychopaths because then they wouldn't have anyone else to 'rule over'. I was looking for the right forum to start a thread about this but Laura had already posted about this idea in another thread:
(http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1868&p=4)
Laura said:
What I've been wondering about lately is: if it is so that the "soul" marries with the genetic construct if present, is there some way to determine those individuals who have higher soul potential via DNA codons? And if so, could it be possible that this is one of the reasons for the great effort to "decode the human genome"? Are they looking for ways to target souled individuals with "ethnic specific weapons"? Is the research in "ethnic specific weapons" just a cover for something else?

For example: if they found a way to target everyone EXCEPT psychopaths, that would be no good because then everyone would die except the psychopaths and they would have no one to be their servants, so it seems unlikely that this would be the approach. So, instead, they might think of targeting just those with higher soul potential, leaving psychopaths AND the remainder of the population that could not achieve the higher potentials... and that way, they would have a servant population that would never be capable of doing anything other than being imprisoned in physical bodies with no hope for developing higher organs of perception and/or doing.
Click to expand...
Considering the 'theories' that a psychopath can recognize a fellow psychopath, and 'assuming' that all psychopaths are familiar and 'conscious' about the manner how a psychopath operates (i.e. 'it takes a crook to spot/catch a crook'), psychopaths can only be 'successful' in an environment where:
1) another type of person, a type distinct from the psychopath type, exists
2) that different type of person remains ignorant of how the psychopath operates

Like a virus that needs a host to survive. From my understanding, a virus is basically 'inert' until it comes into contact with a host and 'invades' the host and 'survives' while it is in the host until it:
1) 'loses' and gets killed or is rendered harmless/non-functional by the immunological response of the host, or
2) 'wins' and kills the host but then also destroys it's means of 'survival', or
3) 'gets smart' and survives by feeding on the host enough to not kill the host but still escapes detection by the host's immune system.

Like the insidious Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (AIDS), the psychopath manages to survive by escaping detection by the non-psychopaths it preys on.

On a side note:
If I would try to imagine what a psychopath must be thinking, I would prefer 'winning' and killing of my host which may result in killing myself and all other psychopaths like me (because there would be no one else around to 'feed on') rather than facing the very undesirable consequence of 'losing' and being rendered harmless/non-functional by non-psychopaths who have been 'enlightened' to what a psychopath is and how a psychopath operates. The latter scenario of 'losing' would, in my opinion of how a psychopath might think, would be 'a fate worse than death'.


Getting back on topic, I'll repeat the quote from Laura's post:
For example: if they found a way to target everyone EXCEPT psychopaths, that would be no good because then everyone would die except the psychopaths and they would have no one to be their servants, so it seems unlikely that this would be the approach. So, instead, they might think of targeting just those with higher soul potential, leaving psychopaths AND the remainder of the population that could not achieve the higher potentials... and that way, they would have a servant population that would never be capable of doing anything other than being imprisoned in physical bodies with no hope for developing higher organs of perception and/or doing.
Click to expand...
(MINOR V for Vendetta SPOILER)
Maybe this has already been done many times 'in the past' but the 'higher soul potential' just seems to always 'pop up' in the population, like V in V for Vendetta seemingly 'popped up' as a result of psychopatic experiementation for the development of a bio-warfare weapon.

And maybe, just like 'higher soul potential' pops up in a predominantly psychopathic environment, 'psychopathic invaders' will also eventually try (and probably succeed) in inflitrating and subjugating a predominantly non-psychopathic (i.e. STO) environment.
Not unlike the cycle of a healthy person getting sick from a cold virus, then fight off the virus and be well again, then getting sick again from a different strain of cold virus, etc.


Is 'this time around' just another 'training ground' for the non-psychopathic (i.e. 'high sould potential') participants in existence today? (much like the non-psychopaths that lived in the period of Mayan civilization before that era 'ended' or the non-psychopaths that lived in the 'Atlantean' period before that period came to a close)

If it is,
So, how to deal with that fact? How to deal with it in terms of the future of Free Will and Freedom for All of humanity?
Click to expand...
I remember the C's saying that those who 'learn their lessons' will advance and those who don't will repeat the cycle, until the 'time' comes again to possibly 'graduate'.

If we, as non-psychopaths, need psychopaths as a means to 'learn our lessons' and 'grow', there needn't be any anger directed toward the psychopaths that are ruling over us now. If this 'relationship' is understood, it is much like a wildlife scientist not getting angry with a predator stalking, catching and killing its prey. The 'subjective' point of view of the prey is to get angry at its predator. The 'objective' point of view of the observing scientist is that this is the normal flow of events. As is it is also normal for the prey to eventually learn to escape and outwit its predator as time passes by.


I wonder if changing the psychopathic status quo would prevent other non-psychopathic people from learning their lessons on their own because the psychopaths would not be there to prey on them. It would be more apt, imho, if the non-psychopaths who already know how to outwit the psychopaths teach the other non-psychopaths how to outwit their predators, rather than 'destroying' (or incapacitating) the predators outright.

This, imho, would be an appropriate response to dealing with the psychopaths rather than moving in the direction of the 'destruction' of the psychopath. Instead of trying to get Bush out of the Presidency, it would be better to educate the people on what a psychopath is and how to identify one, then what would 'naturally' follow is an 'educated populace' removing the reigning psychopaths and also (and more importantly) prevent their escalation to positions of power again.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I think I had to go through the whole thought process and all those analogies to properly illustrate the points that I am trying to correctly construct in my mind.
 
Don't be sorry! It is an excellent and thoughtful post and serves to remind us all that we aren't supposed to be expecting to save the world, it is just our job to be awake, alert, and to keep sending out the signal for those who are ready to awaken... and that's it. The Universe is infinitely capable of taking care of itself.
 
MichaelM said:
Sorry for the lengthy post but I think I had to go through the whole thought process and all those analogies to properly illustrate the points that I am trying to correctly construct in my mind.
Click to expand...
And in doing so, you clarified the picture for me too. Now I can finally go sleep... zzzZZZ

Thanx :)

Neil
 
Well I watched the movie again last night; my God, is there something to be said for watching it a few times!

This time, rather than picking through the plain fact meaning of V's story (that is, how he was detained, suffered gross injustice in the detention center, then escaped in most dramatic circumstances), so attempting to weigh up the 'realistic-ness' of the story, this time I saw it in alchemical terms: the fire within brought on by confronting the terror of the situation rising to the critical point (symbolised by his escape I guess) followed thereafter by his 'extrordinary' ability to read the psychological situation. The inspector Finch comments at one point, "He knows us better than we do ourselves". This is how V can DO within the set of dominoes he sees before him. He does not seek to control events, that would be STS. But reading the situation empowers him to do his little bit, fully aware that if he executes it as would the archetypal warrior, then non-linear results may ensue. Very interesting movie from an esoteric point of view!
 
Recently I saw this movie ( V for Vendetta ). excited to see this movie like Matrix. This Comic story is of very old tme suddenly became very appropriate. Felt like some body ( STO??) created this story in past for this appropriate time. Ofcourse Time doesn't exist as we perceive it. Still wonder about the game of past/present/future and our own ignorance of falling in this trap endelessly as if it is new
 
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