Vaccines

Arwenn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
For me, it was a clear cut decision to not vaccinate my kids. But I knew that I would come upon rabid pro-vaxxers, who were not going to change their minds, and with whom I was most certainly not not going to have a rational conversation. I am amazed at just how hysterical and emotional people get over this issue. And the most illogical of all things was the fear that their children would contract some disease from mine, but they are the ones that are supposedly under this umbrella of protection from the vaccine! So how are my kids a threat to them? If anything, logic would say it was the other way around.

So early on, I practiced external consideration and if asked, my response was that I had immunized my kids. Which is true in a way. I do believe in immunizing my children (which I see as enhancing their immune system). I just used breast milk, herbs, flower essencesnand homoeopathic remedies instead of vaccines. :rolleyes:

There is so much corruption in Big Pharma, that a really good book to read by a whistle-blower is Deadly Medicines and Organised Crime: How Big Pharma Has Corrupted Healthcare. We had this thread on it here. At the end of the day, the science behind drugs & vaccines is so corrupted, because BigPharma controls the funding and hence the results, that you cannot trust the supposed evidence.
 

kalibex

Dagobah Resident
I now think that this recent, rabid rage against anyone who is at all resistant to or ambivalent about vaccinations is quite simply due to the fact that it's obvious...that vaccine resistors don't 'trust' the government.

I think that's what people can't stand to (subconsciously) 'see'. They can't stand the implications of this.
 

SummerLite

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
My daughter has raised this same question several times Arwenn.

Arwenn said:
And the most illogical of all things was the fear that their children would contract some disease from mine, but they are the ones that are supposedly under this umbrella of protection from the vaccine! So how are my kids a threat to them? If anything, logic would say it was the other way around.
There is definitely a strong element of power and control going on here. Many in the medical professions are so overly identified with their roles as "the authorities" that the slightest question against "their knowledge" sends them into an immediate, rabid attack. There are no conversations here true, their minds are closed. Considering this last night, I thought how this is a STS model of course, overpowering another and demanding them follow ones will. It is a structure in the Matrix, that has taken over a important area, healthcare, that is basically STO and corrupted to STS, the predators mind at work. What ever happened to "first do no harm"?

Maybe this is a symptom of the acceleration of the wave. The C's said in the last session:

Q: (L) Well, it seems pretty grim right now. People are either dying, or they're denying that people are dying; or they're suffering or turning their backs on other people's suffering.

(Pierre) And the lies.

(L) It's just...

A: Natural divisions are forming in the face of turmoil.
***************

STS is pushing with more force creating definite divisions between who is who. What does one serve? Could this be the natural division they mention?
 
"There is definitely a strong element of power and control going on here. Many in the medical professions are so overly identified with their roles as "the authorities" that the slightest question against "their knowledge" sends them into an immediate, rabid attack. There are no conversations here true, their minds are closed. Considering this last night, I thought how this is a STS model of course, overpowering another and demanding them follow ones will. It is a structure in the Matrix, that has taken over a important area, healthcare, that is basically STO and corrupted to STS, the predators mind at work. What ever happened to "first do no harm"?"

Very true. I've known people in the medical profession when questioned reply with something along the lines of "Excuse me, I spent so many years in university/medical school/residency studying what many other people before me have studied and have the research
to back it up, and who are YOU to question?" I wonder if the natural division could be that STS is pushing with more force because STO is becoming more and more immovable? Just a thought.
 

Dylan

Jedi
http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp

While I understand that snopes is not necessarily an objective information site, I wonder what you all think of this article. It refutes the idea that there was any misconduct other than a clarification of the study performed by Dr Hooker and while it acknowledges the claim that Dr Thompson alleges of data manipulation, it seems to cast doubt on the idea that the purpose was a manevolent and intentional cover up of the study. It also continues to cast Dr Wakefield as a fraud.

It is a quagmire out there, and to try and reason with folks like I did on a recent Facebook thread which lead me to this article, it was unbelievably fast how I was immediately labelled as a conspiracy theorist and the work of alternative media was entirely cast as the work of tinfoil hat bedecked loonies. It is not constructive, though a person did mention that if this cdc cover up were true then it would imply that there is a global effort to manipulate data for vaccines. They then mentioned that there is also a conspiracy theory involving tea tree oil as a cure for cancer and that as an employee of a cancer researching facility in BC, he too would be implicated in this conspiracy.

Tough one regardless, and for me there stands little chance of preventing my children from being vaccinated, but my stress levels do go up every time as I pray that we are not a family that suffers vaccine injury to our children.
 

SummerLite

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
My heart goes out to you Dylan, I understand the agony this is causing you. I also question what is going on with this unusual, vehement reaction with pro-vaxxers....its Strange! Out of the wood work they come with a Roar.Perhaps this little clip will be helpful to you.

"However, there is hope.

At least 15 percent of young doctors recently polled admit that they're starting to adopt a more individualized approach to vaccinations in direct response to the vaccine safety concerns of parents. It is good news that there is a growing number of smart young doctors, who prefer to work as partners with parents in making personalized vaccine decisions for children, including delaying vaccinations or giving children fewer vaccines on the same day or continuing to provide medical care for those families, who decline use of one or more vaccines.

So take the time to locate a doctor, who treats you with compassion and respect and is willing to work with you to do what is right for your child."

There are things that can be done to minimize the risks. Perhaps that would be good to look into more thoroughly and make your voice/intensions known. The quote above is from a US website. https://nvicadvocacy.org/members/Home.aspx which is a group organized to protect our choice and spread information. This whole thing has been a kick in the butt for me, I had hoped I was done with this battle....but alas it appears not.

Bruce, this may be the case, its how I feel anyway.

" I wonder if the natural division could be that STS is pushing with more force because STO is becoming more and more immovable? Just a thought".

p.s. forgot Snoops is obviously a disinfo site. I didn't know this before but with your description here its clear. From my perspective there is nothing BUT conspiracies in this world. A sudden outrage against conspiracies also seems to be a part of this campaign, Odd stuff indeed.
 

manitoban

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
kalibex said:
I now think that this recent, rabid rage against anyone who is at all resistant to or ambivalent about vaccinations is quite simply due to the fact that it's obvious...that vaccine resistors don't 'trust' the government.

I think that's what people can't stand to (subconsciously) 'see'. They can't stand the implications of this.
Yes, I agree and I think that this is the root cause of the current hysteria.

The very idea that the government/medical profession does not have our best interests at heart is so unbearable to many people that they simply cannot accept it. Anyone who is anti vaccine is therefore questioning their entire belief system and this is very threatening to them.
 

Aya

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
manitoban said:
Anyone who is anti vaccine is therefore questioning their entire belief system and this is very threatening to them.
Yes, it's just like a religion and this belief based on the wrong science seems to have spread to population in much wider and bigger scale than Christianity in recent years. Vaccination is like the part of the ritual for those who are believing doctors (pastors) and big pharma (preachers) that they are spreading and justifying the lunatic science (their version of God?). They are probably thinking that if people don't participate in this "ritual", possibly they are going to hell by viruses etc. These days, the firm believers are increadibly antagonistic towards non-believers. It's the most dangerous 'cult' in the world, indeed.
 

josev

Padawan Learner
Woodsman said:
Hi, Dylan.

I've also noticed that vaccine debate has, "gone viral" on Facebook.

I've watched people get ugly and stop thinking, and certainly stop listening.

I've also learned a few things, and seen one or two upstanding individuals actually practice the art of skepticism, attempting to put aside their biases and allow their knowledge structures to change based on new information. But this is by far not the standard reaction, which is one of hate and emotion and a fortification of ignorance.

I've come away with a few casual observations...

1. The worst offenders on the Pro-Vaxx side invariable begin their participation in the debate (in each of the several cases I saw), with the announcement that, "There is NO question. It's a completely closed case. Vaccination works and is safe." (Or some variation on that theme.) That's their starting position and everything they do after that is not an attempt to assess or to explore, but to fortify and to win.

2. The worst of the Pro-Vaxx people display an amazing level of cognitive dissonance and denial. Well constructed, polite comments and samples of evidence are utterly disregarded. Where weaker arguments and less-than-watertight examples are challenged and spun, the strong examples are simply ignored and quickly forgotten. -To the extent that questions and talking points thoroughly addressed are asked again as though they had not been answered.

3. "Show me legitimate proof! Not that conspiracy stuff!"

This one is interesting. It struck me that when an extreme pro-vaxx person demands "legitimate" proof, when you boil it down, what they are really asking for is proof which has been given the stamp of approval by Official Culture. -Approval which can be granted only by a trusted authority figure or body with a sufficiently high standing in Official Culture, such as respected news anchors with CDC press releases. The problem, of course, is that questioning virology is not approved of by Official Culture, and thus exists outside the Venn diagram circle of acceptability; anything which disagrees with the official position is by default, "conspiracy stuff". -Even officials from within official culture are, as we have seen, tossed into the "conspiracy circle" the moment they raise alarms or go "off message". One wonders just how much momentum an official announcement would have to attain before being accepted if it goes against popular belief?

4. Knowing a lot of the people in person who I have on my own Facebook account, I have had the opportunity to know what they are like in their real lives, know their histories, etc.: They are not all the same. Some of the extreme pro-vaxx people have been those who tended to have a lot of difficulty in general coping with change and with accepting upsetting ideas. They are deeply affected by scary ideas, and avoid research as a general rule.
Hi,
I saw too the four Woodsman's points in my Facebook several days ago through some scientists contacts, I search vaccine in the forum and here I am. I noticed that shared articles and images appealing to emotion and attacking those who were against vaccines as if they were the only solution and as if they were 100% safe.

Like this article: Christie is wrong. Vaccination is not a personal decision. It's a social obligation. http://www.vox.com/2015/1/31/7955947/vaccination-herd-immunity.
I see that when the authorities and the media insist so much on something and so emotionally there can be only interests involved and generally not the common good. (Why a good nutrition of all people is not a social obligation if it causes more damage, deaths and health expenses on the governments?)

All the articles talk of "discredited" Dr Wakefield as if the only study that linked autism with vaccines. There are several articles of the case in Sott. And half of the items I saw Seth Mnookin appeared as author or contributor or in some link of the article. I only saw some links quickly :D

Just when I look at the website of CDC and knowing the ketogenic diet and natural options for strengthening the immune system no longer want to hear about vaccines :D
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccine_Monitoring/history.html

After a vaccine is licensed for public use, its safety is monitored continually. The FDA requires all manufacturers to submit samples from each vaccine lot prior to its release. In addition, the manufacturers must provide the FDA with their test results for vaccine safety, potency, and purity. Each lot must be tested because vaccines are sensitive to environmental factors like temperature, and can be contaminated during production. The FDA rarely has recalled vaccine lots, for concerns such as mislabeling, contamination during production, and potential manufacturing problems at a production plant. [8]

While clinical trials provide important information on vaccine safety, the data are somewhat limited because of the relatively small number (hundreds to thousands) of study participants. Rare side effects and delayed reactions may not be evident until the vaccine is administered to millions of people. Therefore, the federal government established a surveillance system to monitor adverse events following vaccination. This project is known as the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). In addition, large-linked databases containing information on millions of individuals have been created to study rare vaccine adverse events
National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

Related with the CDC info, a friend told me, for his peace of mind, that the organisms of control are constantly removing the products and medicines that are harmful. Yes, usually after many years of producing damage and generate profits. It is very easy to say, oh we were wrong
 

Odyssey

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Yes, it does appear as if the vaccine debate is becoming particularly heated and polarized. Now politicians are being drawn into it.

Back in the day in England when smallpox was a concern (17-1800s) there were mandatory vaccine campaigns and parents were fined and/or jailed for not vaccinating their children.

History may repeat. :scared:
 

mb

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
josev said:
...
All the articles talk of "discredited" Dr Wakefield as if the only study that linked autism with vaccines. There are several articles of the case in Sott. And half of the items I saw Seth Mnookin appeared as author or contributor or in some link of the article. I only saw some links quickly :D

Just when I look at the website of CDC and knowing the ketogenic diet and natural options for strengthening the immune system no longer want to hear about vaccines :D
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccine_Monitoring/history.html
...
National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html
...
What is nearly always omitted, when the claim is made that mercury was removed from vaccines and the autism rate didn't change, is that mercury-based adjuvants were replaced with aluminum-based ones. The data is observational to begin with, and proves nothing, but when you consider what is actually known, it REALLY proves nothing.

The vaccine safety monitoring program looks quite impressive when described in those terms. It doesn't look so impressive when you consider that reactions to medications go largely unreported.

And the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a horror story of victims placed on trial.

It's SO easy to fool people.
 

etezete

Jedi Master
MB said:
The documentary Bought (boughtmovie.com) offers some good food for thought about vaccines as well.
I wanted to refer to this documentary, too. It is really very informative and shows some aspects that usually go by the board. And: You can watch it still for free online for four more days!

We have rather hardened fronts here in Germany at the moment, a little boy of 18 months died in Berlin - and the media immediately was full of polemic accusations towards anti-vaxxers. Problem is: You cannot ask any critical questions without instantly becoming an anti-vaxxer. Why is that? And another thing I noticed: The Pro-Faction don't seem to need to prove anything while every document the so called anti-vaxxers cite is at least highly questionable to them. Mostly, if you cite a site where there is anything pro-homeopathy on it, you are an esoterical nutjob. end of discussion. That is what i don't like the most with this all. that there is no discussion possible.
 

etezete

Jedi Master
Woodsman said:
Hi, Dylan.

I've also noticed that vaccine debate has, "gone viral" on Facebook.

I've watched people get ugly and stop thinking, and certainly stop listening.

I've also learned a few things, and seen one or two upstanding individuals actually practice the art of skepticism, attempting to put aside their biases and allow their knowledge structures to change based on new information. But this is by far not the standard reaction, which is one of hate and emotion and a fortification of ignorance.

I've come away with a few casual observations...

1. The worst offenders on the Pro-Vaxx side invariable begin their participation in the debate (in each of the several cases I saw), with the announcement that, "There is NO question. It's a completely closed case. Vaccination works and is safe." (Or some variation on that theme.) That's their starting position and everything they do after that is not an attempt to assess or to explore, but to fortify and to win.

2. The worst of the Pro-Vaxx people display an amazing level of cognitive dissonance and denial. Well constructed, polite comments and samples of evidence are utterly disregarded. Where weaker arguments and less-than-watertight examples are challenged and spun, the strong examples are simply ignored and quickly forgotten. -To the extent that questions and talking points thoroughly addressed are asked again as though they had not been answered.

3. "Show me legitimate proof! Not that conspiracy stuff!"

This one is interesting. It struck me that when an extreme pro-vaxx person demands "legitimate" proof, when you boil it down, what they are really asking for is proof which has been given the stamp of approval by Official Culture. -Approval which can be granted only by a trusted authority figure or body with a sufficiently high standing in Official Culture, such as respected news anchors with CDC press releases. The problem, of course, is that questioning virology is not approved of by Official Culture, and thus exists outside the Venn diagram circle of acceptability; anything which disagrees with the official position is by default, "conspiracy stuff". -Even officials from within official culture are, as we have seen, tossed into the "conspiracy circle" the moment they raise alarms or go "off message". One wonders just how much momentum an official announcement would have to attain before being accepted if it goes against popular belief?
this is so very well observed!

I have to admit I was a little disappointed when I recently realized that a blogger I follow for several years now turned out to be such a strong pro-vaxxer. He shows literally ALL the signs you listed and described above.

Funny thing is: he is as a blogger a strong opposer of governments political TINA-line as well. so... I think here is the gap, the chasm. pro-vaxxers like him are just in that position when it comes to vaccines-related topics. There is no alternative to vaccination for them. Duh. Even funnier: he has a political podcast (very interesting stuff and interview-partners btw) which is called Alternativlos! Speak german? check it out:

http://alternativlos.org/

I think that I really began understanding what "cognitive dissonance" means when I realized that it existed everywhere, and also very often in myself.

I began to do instead of only think about things. What can I do? And maybe this can be the key to opening up.

Here in Germany almost everyone I know is already sure that compulsory vaccination will come. soon. It is so not right. And I often think about that one C's session, when Laura was asking about 666 and the C's translated that number to "VISA", like a mark that everyone has to wear - by law - somewhere on the body. Also recently I read about theses nanochips they can implant into the body's bloodstream via needle shot... oh dear...
 
Off topic I know so I will only say a sentence or two on the whole 666 reference. It seems that this topic can be explained in many many ways. VISA being one. And I don't know to what significants this would be but it may have something to do with the carbon isotope 666. That would be 6 protons 6 neutrons and 6 electrons. possibly within brain chemistry or nanotechnology applications. I'm not sure because I'm not that smart. :offtopic: :lkj:
 

Navigator

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
etezete said:
MB said:
The documentary Bought (boughtmovie.com) offers some good food for thought about vaccines as well.
I wanted to refer to this documentary, too. It is really very informative and shows some aspects that usually go by the board. And: You can watch it still for free online for four more days!

We have rather hardened fronts here in Germany at the moment, a little boy of 18 months died in Berlin - and the media immediately was full of polemic accusations towards anti-vaxxers. Problem is: You cannot ask any critical questions without instantly becoming an anti-vaxxer. Why is that? And another thing I noticed: The Pro-Faction don't seem to need to prove anything while every document the so called anti-vaxxers cite is at least highly questionable to them. Mostly, if you cite a site where there is anything pro-homeopathy on it, you are an esoterical nutjob. end of discussion. That is what i don't like the most with this all. that there is no discussion possible.
Saw this too. Good compilation (vaccine & lawsuits, whistleblowers, GMOs and more). I think they covered fairly, but given the time, superficial maybe. Prompting more research though. I saw the "free" version, which struck me as incomplete, given that in the trailer they had Mercola, and I can't remember seing him during the run.
 
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