Verneuil's disease AKA Hydradenitis Suppurative

Away With The Fairys said:
Thanks for this Psyche. I am presently on tetracyclin and it has reduced inflammation a fair bit and pain levels are down , when these run out i am to take another course for a further two weeks.

I found them a hell of a lot cheaper on this site -http://requestpills.com/order-doxycycline-online-en.html?a=46765 for any one who may be looking into buying them.

Just make sure is the right dose, you don't want to take an antibiotic treatment, just a low dose which will modulate your immune system in you skin.

At fludan.com you can get the pure powder. You'll need a scale that can measure 20 mg though, like a cheap jewel scale or something like that. The advantage of getting the pure powder is that you avoid the toxicity of the capsules and other evil chemicals added to drugs. Most capsules have lactose on them, among other things. Then, you can keep the powder in the fridge.

They have had good results treating hard-core skin problems. Here is another article:

Clinical applications of non-antimicrobial tetracyclines in dermatology
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Clinical%20applications%20of%20non-antimicrobial%20tetracyclines%20in%20dermatology

There are many proposed non-antimicrobial actions of tetracyclines. Pathways affected by these medications are often overexpressed in various dermatologic conditions. Matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) are enzymes best known for breaking down connective tissue proteins and are upregulated in conditions involving dermal destruction. Inhibition of MMPs by tetracyclines has been emphasized as one major non-antimicrobial action. Other effects of tetracyclines that are important in dermatology include inflammatory cytokine regulation, inhibition of leukocyte chemotaxis and activation, and anti-oxidation. Dermatologists have utilized the non-antimicrobial benefits of using tetracycline, through their success in treating disorders that do not have a primary infectious etiology such as rosacea. Even in acne, there is believed to be overactive inflammation to a normally commensal organism which is inhibited by tetracyclines. These medications have also been reported as successful in cases of less common skin conditions, such as pyoderma gangrenosum and bullous pemphigoid, both of which involve inflammation and dermal destruction which are inhibited by tetracyclines. The pathologic mechanisms of several dermatologic conditions are reviewed, followed by evidence of how tetracyclines and chemically modified tetracyclines (CMTs; structurally altered tetracyclines to remove antimicrobial properties while retaining non-antimicrobial properties) affect these pathways. Clinical testing of sub-antimicrobial doxycycline, in both 20mg twice daily and 40 mg once daily (controlled release; 30 mg immediate release, 10mg delayed release) forms, in rosacea and acne is reviewed as evidence that non-antimicrobial actions are valuable for treatment. Chemically modified tetracycline-3 (CMT-3) for Kaposi's sarcoma is highlighted as the only clinical evidence available for CMTs in dermatology. Certain evidence of success using antimicrobial tetracyclines in inflammatory conditions of the skin is reviewed as well, because they are likely working through non-antimicrobial properties. Finally, dermatologic side effects of non-antimicrobial tetracyclines are assessed.

The inside of the article says:

Altered keratinization

In acne, corneocytes in the infrainfundibulum of the follicular
unit display abnormal adherence to one another [96], with
increased intercellular binding proteins when compared to normal
skin [112]. There is also evidence of increased proliferation and
hyperkeratinization in acne lesions [113]. The result is obstruction
of the follicular unit and comedo formation.

There is evidence suggesting that an immune response may
precede or worsen
comedo formation. For example, Jeremy et al.
[114] demonstrated perifollicular inflammation appearing without
keratinocyte hyperproliferation or hyperkeratinization in the
skin
of acne patients. Inflammation has been shown to cause
hyperproliferation and hyperkeratosis in the epidermis
[112,115].
Furthermore, inflammatory cytokines, including TNF-, have been
shown to upregulate adhesion proteins
in experimental models
involving the follicular infundibulum [96,116].

The cytokine interleukin-1alpha (IL-1) has been implicated in
this process [117,118]. IL-1 is constitutively produced by keratinocytes
[119] and sebocytes
[120]. Transgenic mice expressing
high levels of this cytokine demonstrate epidermal hyperplasia
[117]. Blockade of its activity has lead to improvement of hyperkeratinization
in tissue culture
[121]. In another experiment, high
levels of IL-1 led to hypercornification of keratinocytes in an isolated
human pilosebaceous unit
[118]. Finally, Ingham et al. [122]
detected elevated levels of IL-1 present in the majority of open
comedones sampled in acne vulgaris.

IL-1 is distinguished from interleukin-1 (IL-1) in that it has
an active proenzyme which may intracellular targets, it is cleaved
into its respective IL-1 isoform by a different enzyme, and it binds
to its the extracellular IL-1 receptors with different affinity [123].
Most studies investigating the effect of tetracyclines [14] and CMTs
[124] on cytokines measure IL-1 as part of a panel measuring the
inflammatory response as a whole. Several studies have found the
level of this cytokine is decreased when tissue or serum is analyzed
in models using animals treated with tetracyclines
[14,125,126]
and CMTs [124]. In one study measuring cytokine production in a
culture of human cornea epithelium, doxycycline led to a decrease
in the amount of IL-1
 measured, however, had no significant
effect on IL-1 [15]. Another study measured activity levels of IL-
1 in comedones from 11 patients before and after treatement
with tetracycline or minocycline [127].While most of the patients
attained clinical improvement, there was no significant reduction
in the number of comedones. Furthermore, about half of the
patients had statistically significant elevated levels of IL-1 before
and after treatment.

The role of MMPs in keratinization is largely uninvestigated.
Kobayashi et al. [128] found that MMP-9 and involucrin, a marker
of terminal differentiation and keratinization, co-localized to keratinocytes
in culture. Furthermore, theyshowedsimilarities in gene
regulatory elements between these two proteins. The conclusion
was that MMP-9 may have a role in keratinization. MMPs are often
upregulated with growth factors in proliferative states
[129,130]
however, their role in proliferation of the epidermis and hyperproliferation
in acne remains unknown. As mentioned above, one MMP
mechanism is activation, by cleavage of proforms, of various signaling
molecules, including growth factors
[18–21]. For example,
MMP-9 cleaves the proform of TGF- into its active form [21]. No
studies were found investigating the effects of MMPs on growth
factors that have been implicated in the hyperproliferation of
acne, such as fibroblast growth factor (FGF) and epidermal growth
factor (EGF) [131]. If MMPs are found to activate these growth
factors, then inhibition of MMP activity by tetracyclines
may be
another useful non-antimicrobial mechanism in the treatment
of acne.

The mechanisms that cause altered keratinization in the follicle
are not completely clear. If IL-1 is confirmed to be an important
signaling factor, evidence thus far suggests tetracyclines do
not inhibit the presence of this cytokine.
Yet, there is evidence
demonstrating that treatment with tetracyclines, including at subantimicrobial
dosing [132], leads to a decrease in the number
of comedones [132–134]. Whether this is due to regulation of
irregular keratinization through the inhibition of inflammatory
cytokines [112,115,135], growth factors or another pathway is
unknown.

Typically 4 months of treatment are needed at the very least. As an anti-inflammatory that may regulate hyperkeratosis, I think it is worth a try. Also because it modulates inflammation in general in your body and prevents destruction of the MMP matrix by MMPs enzymes which are involved in joint pains, blood vessel dysfunction, and any autoimmune disease that involves degradation of tissue. It seems that the MMPs enzymes are triggering hyperkeratinization.
 
Psyche said:
I just came across this paper:

Tetracyclines: nonantibiotic properties and their clinical implications.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16443056?dopt=Abstract

Were you able to download the entire paper? If so, could you send it over? I only get access to the abstract. Thanks!
 
I found a bit more on treatment with doxycycline in low-doses:

http://www.nyccosmeticdermatology.com/oral-antibiotics-therapies.htm

Tetracyclines

Since tetracycline (tetracycline hydrochloride and oxytetracycline) first became available in 1953, followed by doxycycline in 1967 and minocycline in 1972, the tetracyclines have become the most commonly prescribed first-line systemic antibiotic for the treatment of acne. (Lymecycline, a second-generation tetracycline introduced in 1963, is used outside of the US for acne and will not be discussed further here.) Tetracyclines are antimicrobials that exert a bacteriostatic effect by interfering with protein synthesis on the 30S ribosomal subunit. Additionally, these agents exert anti-inflammatory properties by inhibiting chemotaxis, decreasing the formation of reactive oxygen species, inhibiting proteolytic matrix metalloproteinases, and downregulating proinf1ammatory cytokines. They also alter sebum excretion by inhibiting phospholipase A2 metabolism of arachidonic acid and P. acnes-derived lipase, resulting in a decreased accumulation of follicular free fatty acids that serve as potent chemokines for neutrophil recruitment. Tetracycline, administered in doses of 5OO mg twice daily followed by 500 mg daily, can be an inexpensive, effective, and generally safe treatment. Because the absorption of tetracycline is affected by food, dairy products, antacids, vitamins, and iron, taking it on an empty stomach is recommended. Adverse effects most commonly include gastrointestinal distress manifested as diarrhea, vomiting, dyspepsia, and, rarely, esophagitis and esophageal ulceration. Vaginal candidiasis, acneiform and fixed drug eruptions, benign intracranial hypertension, photosensitivity, and, rarely, severe cutaneous reactions such as Stevens-Johnson syndrome can also occur. Cross-reactivity is more frequent with doxycycline than with minocycline, as the former is more chemically similar. Tetracyclines should be avoided by pregnant women as they cause discoloration and enamel hypoplasia of deciduous teeth, and in children younger than 8 due to staining of the developing permanent teeth.

Doxycycline is a broad-spectrum antibiotic synthetically derived from tetracycline and is available as several different forms: doxycycline monohydrate, doxycycline hydrochlotide hemierhanolate hemihydrate, doxycycline hyclate, and doxycycline calcium (Table 2). It is more lipophilic than tetracycline and has demonstrated excellent penetration into the pilosebaceous unit. lts side effect profile parallels that of tetracycline, with the exception that doxycycline is more likely to cause phororoxic reactions. For patients with gastrointestinal complaints, capsules of doxycycline in the form of enteric-coated pellets (Doryx®) may be a viable alternative. Doryx was shown to result in fewer gastrointestinal side effects when compared to capsules containing the powdered form.

[...]

With the worldwide emergence of P. acnes strains resistant to tetracyclines, recent studies have demonstrated therapeutic efficacy with doxycycline administered at doses below necessary for its antimicrobial properties. Subantimicrobial-dose doxycycline (SDD) hyclate 20 mg twice daily (Periosta®) was approved by the US FDA in 1998 for chronic adult periodontitis, and in 2006 for the treatment of rosacea in the form of 40 mg once daily (Oracea®). In 2003, Skidmore et al published the first acne trial examining the antiinflammatory properties of a tetracycline derivative independent of its antimicrobial effect. In this randomized, double-blind, controlled trial, participants with moderate facial acne were treated with either doxycycline hyclate 20 mg twice daily (n=2 I) or placebo (n=19) for 6 months. Skin samples were collected pre- and post-treatment to evaluate whether SDD therapy altered normal skin flora, had an antimicrobial effect. or resulted in antibiotic resistance. At 6 months, the doxycycline group had significantly greater improvement according to the clinician’s global assessment. Comedonal and inflammatory lesions were reduced by 53.2% and 50.1%, respectively, compared to 10.6% and 30.2% lesion reductions in the placebo group. SDD had no effect on the composition of skin microflora, and did not result in organisms resistant to doxycycline or cross-resistant to other antimicrobials. Both SDD and placebo were equally well-tolerated.

This was followed by a smaller study in which 12 patients were first given doxycycline hyclate 100 mg daily for 8 weeks. This produced a 50% reduction of lesions in all that remained enrolled (n=11). Six of these patients were subsequently given doxycycline hyclate 20 mg BID while the rest received placebo. The former group maintained improvement, while the latter did not. Although there have becn few studies on SDD thus far, it appears to be an effective treatment for clinically improving acne vulgaris while having an undetectable antimicrobial effect, potentially minimizing the emergence of resistant organisms and colonization of the skin with opportunistic pathogens. Unfortunately, there are no studies comparing the clinical efficacy of subantimicrobial doses to conventional doses of doxycycline for acne treatment.

It could certainly be an option. Although, to be honest, I'm a bit against this idea that HS is due to inflammation and such. At least in Atreides' case, that doesn't seem to be the case. I understand that it might help with the hyperkeratinization, but is it really a good thing to take something so artificial? I really don't know. There is also that (mild?) risk of gastrointestinal upset that makes me a bit suspicious. It could be nothing.

By now, I've read hundreds of testimonials, and 90% of them say that all doxycycline did was calm down the "symptoms" for a while. OK, that was probably taking a normal dose. But maybe we should try with something a bit more natural first? We have been looking into seriously exfoliating treatments, and removing the "multiple follicles" one by one. I'm hoping that this is a way to prevent recurrences without having to take the doxycycline. It might be too naive to think this way, but the idea behind it is that hopefully, sticking to the ketogenic diet for long enough will have many more positive effects than something like doxycycline.... ??
 
I was reviewing the zinc information again in regards to HS, and it seems to me that both zinc and low dose doxycicline work on the same level, that is in those metalloproteinase (sp?) enzymes.

Exfoliating treatments does sound good.
 
Psyche said:
I was reviewing the zinc information again in regards to HS, and it seems to me that both zinc and low dose doxycicline work on the same level, that is in those metalloproteinase (sp?) enzymes.

Oh, goodie. Do you mean that one can take either zinc or doxycycline, or that both should be taken at the same time? Atreides takes his zinc regularly (100mg a day, because the 200 recommended in the protocol give him horrible nausea). We haven't noticed any big effects yet, but we'll see.

Exfoliating treatments does sound good.

Yeps! We'll post an update about it.

A few days ago, I spoke with a woman who is a member of the "Solidarité Verneuil" group in France. She referred us to a surgeon who apparently is specialized in HS. We got an appointment in October. He has asked us to send a detailed letter with all of Atreides' medical history before he sees him (quite rare for a doctor to do that here!), and from what this lady said, he has treated a lot of people successfully. He does this scan with a blue liquid (forgot what it's called), and makes absolutely sure to find every tiny fistula. If surgery is required, he has found out (like we suspected) that removing the glands together with the abscess has permanent effects. Anyway, we'll see, but he comes highly recommended, and it's nice to know that at least some doctors are studying this seriously and trying to help people.

AWTF, I hope you feel better and better soon. Keep us posted about what this sweat clinic you mentioned has to say, please. If you can't find anybody good in Denmark, this French doctor might be another option for you too. We'll let you know.
 
That sounds very promising! I was reading one paper on zinc in HS and the other one of low dose doxycycline on skin problems and realize they work at the same level of innate immunity in the skin. I think one or the other might do, although they have more research available on doxycycline probably because of conflict of interest, i.e. the doctor who wrote the paper works for Big Pharma. In any case, his research is very promising and we know low dose doxycycline has very good effects in arthritis and certain skin problems.

Anyway, it is a lengthy protocol to commit to. It is at least 4 months, preferably 1 year. Perhaps just the zinc is better.
 
Update on Atriedes' condition.

He had the fistula closing surgery the last week of September. By then, we had already scheduled an appointment with the specialist in Lyon. Based on a detailed history and photos that we sent via email, he not only scheduled that consultation, all the arrangements for surgery were made in advance since it is so far to travel.

So, he went to the consultation on the 8th (last Monday) and had the surgery on the 11th, a few days ago. I traveled over to be there and was gone for three days. Came back home last night.

He was put in the hyperbaric chamber in advance of the surgery (two sessions) and this doctor recommends at least a month of daily hyperbaric sessions following surgery.

It was a pretty thorough surgery with 6 areas excised completely. Needless to say, Atriedes was pretty out of it afterward and will be for awhile with pain meds. When we left yesterday, they were taking him to the hyperbaric chamber. I called when we were finally home and he said that he read most of the time and did actually fall asleep finally. That's a good thing because it's really hard spending 2 hours in what is basically a submarine that you can't get out of where you can take nothing but a paper book.

We met another Verneuil's disease patient there: the lady who has created the French Verneuil's Society. She said she had 18 surgeries in a 10 year period, each one of them putting her out of commission for up to two months at a time. She is now completely free of any symptoms and attributes it to the hyperbaric treatments that followed her last surgeries. She told us something I didn't know: that this condition is more common in women than men. Or maybe it is because men talk about it less? Dunno. She also thinks that the percentage of the population afflicted is much higher, that most people go undiagnosed, thinking that they just have repeating boils.

Anyway, there was another patient there for the same surgery, a woman, and I understand that after I left, they all had a tea party in Atriedes' room along with the doctor. Plans are being made to make the treatment information more widely available in multiple languages via the internet. This doctor seems to be very passionate and compassionate about this condition and he is about the only one we have found who has a clue about it. Well, at least from the mechanical point of view. He doesn't talk much about diet but he does say that he thinks that there is an emotional component to the condition and it occurs in people who have very sensitive stress reactions. It is certainly true that Atriedes had the worst outbreak in conjunction with the Police investigation which caused a great deal of stress for all of us.

In any event, arrangements are being made for Atriedes to continue the hyperbaric sessions in Toulouse when he comes home. And he does want to come home on Sunday if the pain can be reduced enough to travel for 6 hours by car. We'll see.
 
Laura said:
In any event, arrangements are being made for Atriedes to continue the hyperbaric sessions in Toulouse when he comes home. And he does want to come home on Sunday if the pain can be reduced enough to travel for 6 hours by car. We'll see.

I hope he will become symptom-free with the hyperbaric sessions, just like the woman. Speedy recovery! Hopefully this surgery was the last one that will be needed.
 
My best regards for a speedy recovery. I've heard really good things about hyperbaric chambers & wound healing. Hopefully this will kick it for good! :flowers:
 
Laura said:
In any event, arrangements are being made for Atriedes to continue the hyperbaric sessions in Toulouse when he comes home. And he does want to come home on Sunday if the pain can be reduced enough to travel for 6 hours by car. We'll see.

Thank you for the update, and I wish Atriedes a speedy recovery!
 
Laura said:
We met another Verneuil's disease patient there: the lady who has created the French Verneuil's Society. She said she had 18 surgeries in a 10 year period, each one of them putting her out of commission for up to two months at a time. She is now completely free of any symptoms and attributes it to the hyperbaric treatments that followed her last surgeries. She told us something I didn't know: that this condition is more common in women than men. Or maybe it is because men talk about it less? Dunno. She also thinks that the percentage of the population afflicted is much higher, that most people go undiagnosed, thinking that they just have repeating boils.

That's good to hear!

Anyway, there was another patient there for the same surgery, a woman, and I understand that after I left, they all had a tea party in Atriedes' room along with the doctor. Plans are being made to make the treatment information more widely available in multiple languages via the internet. This doctor seems to be very passionate and compassionate about this condition and he is about the only one we have found who has a clue about it. Well, at least from the mechanical point of view. He doesn't talk much about diet but he does say that he thinks that there is an emotional component to the condition and it occurs in people who have very sensitive stress reactions. It is certainly true that Atriedes had the worst outbreak in conjunction with the Police investigation which caused a great deal of stress for all of us.

I'm glad you all found this guy! Wishing Atreides all the best, and sending lots of hugs. :hug2:
 
Thank you for the update, Laura.

Laura said:
We met another Verneuil's disease patient there: the lady who has created the French Verneuil's Society. She said she had 18 surgeries in a 10 year period, each one of them putting her out of commission for up to two months at a time. She is now completely free of any symptoms and attributes it to the hyperbaric treatments that followed her last surgeries.

This sounds very promising!

I wish Atreides a speedy recovery and to be able to come home soon. Hugs to you all :hug2:
 
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