Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

[Nathan]

Rest assured, you'll be getting the full report on what I learn! The instructor was taught by Vasiliev for 10 years. OK, so that's not the same as you actually being there and learning it first-hand, but hey, that's really the best I can do until I'm in France next. :P Alternatively, you could invent a virtual reality construct so we can all discuss and train together!

 

[atreides]

lmao, wouldn't that be nice. Alas, I am even considering going up to moscow to learn from Ryabko himself. I don't believe his system is the answer, I just see so many similarities with the work. But then again, maybe it fits perfectly, I don't know yet.

 

[Nathan]

Atreides, are you referring to the Russian Martial Art Camps that Ryabko holds in Moscow? Was he Vasiliev's teacher? When you mentioned him, it triggered something for me that he said in an interview I read, which related back to your thoughts on what constitutes a good or evil martial art. I hunted around and found the interview again, and pasted in the relevant bit (emphasis mine).

Things that do not destroy your soul, your body, your family, your country – things that create – these are all good exercises to do…because God creates and the dark forces destroy and whoever supports which ever side – creates or destroys….

 

[atreides]

Yep.

You have to see what Ryabko says from his historical context, once you remove the situational filter, you realize that he is really saying approxamately what we and others like M and G as well as Castaneda were/are saying. You can even really see it come through in their drills and exercises that are more like a guide where each person is encouraged to add their own perspective and techniques.

To answer your other question, yes Ryabko was Vasiliev's teacher, and I think Komarov's as well. Let me know how your training goes :)

 

[Novelis]

Gee, there is so much I'd still like to discuss.
However, I think it has become an imperative for me to broaden my range of understanding of different schools. So far, I've delved into mainly Tai Chi literature of various sorts, and from what various people have said, I think it may be a good idea to get back to the drawing board and stop clinging to this narrow perspective I hold so dear.

Atreides, you mentioned the idea that the book 'In search of the miraculous' contains many concepts that relate to martial arts, so I think it will be beneficial for everyone if I respond after reading it.

Thanks for the input everyone, I'll be back... ;)

 

[atreides]

Hi Novelis

Yes, in my personal opinion, martial art is the work, it is really all down to how you see it, and how you model your world. People try to classify or sectionalize the work as being something that they already do, or want to do, or what others have done. One may think that the work is feeding hungry children like Mother Terese, or writing like the Signs page. So people aspire to do those things, without realizing that it is not what you do but how you do it that really matters. If for instance you lay bricks, you may of course align the work to laying bricks, and in making efforts on yourself through the activity of laying bricks, then you are doing "the work." If martial arts are your thing, then if you make efforts on yourself, then you are doing the work as well.

Any effort that goes towards refining your machine, that is you as a collective whole, in anyway is "the work." If you do martial arts to gain control, or power, or any such nonesense, then you are not doing the work. The work is not about ascending, it is about refinement. You cannot do any of the other stuffs until you have reached a level of significant impeccability. The Work is completed when you have reached that level, and then you may move onto other things of greater import, in the grand scheme of things that is. What lies beyond the work? Who knows, as few people who have completed it have left behind any information, those who have, did not leave any blatant descriptions, only clues about how and what to do, what they left behind was also only partially applicable, as times change, so does knowledge, so we are only working with a partial map, we have to flesh things out for ourselves.

Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

 

[Novelis]

...Should have posted my message here instead of starting a new thread really, well, here it is... Here:

Hi,

It would be a shame for this thread to end so soon. On another not, I tried to order Dillon's book but alas, amazon told me at the last moment that there weren't any more in stock...oi.

Just wondering if you've had any luck with obtaining that book, I'll be leaving behind quite a lot of books soon (http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/signs … hp?id=7285), so I could send you the copy I have if you want.

I started putting the romanised pin yin above the Chinese characters so I could pronounce the words easily, so if you are interested in learning how to say those words by any chance, then that's a bonus, if not... Well, no harm done.

 

[Nathan]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Finally I can report back with my first impressions of Systema. I’m about a year late getting into it but better late than never, right? So far, I’ve attended half a dozen classes. The first thing I noticed is how relaxed the Systema teacher and students were. It is also worth noting that many (but not all) of the students have studied other martial arts. One is a ninjitsu instructor, another is a 7th dan in Karate and the instructor himself had spent over a decade studying Aikido before realising its shortcomings.

Having a martial arts background can be a mixed blessing when trying your hand (or any other body part) at Systema. I suppose it’s like a hip-hop dancer trying out ballet for the first time. Sure, they’d find it easier to learn than someone with no experience at all in dancing, but they may find it difficult to lose the hard edge of their style and adopt something soft and fluid. Old habits die hard.

Especially when I walked into class and discovered Systema does not even teach “techniques”. Because there are none. Why? So the student can learn to be free to do whatever is necessary, unbound by techniques that would otherwise limit him/her. I remember reading that someone told Vladimir wat a seminar that he was very flexible. He replied simply, ‘No, I am free.’

The first things I learnt as a beginner were a) breathing, b) absorbing strikes and c) moving in a relaxed manner without tension or rigidity. I'd expand on these but I still don't completely understand it yet so I'll save that for another time.

But one interesting thing I noticed in a Systema class is that there is no distinction between what the beginner students learn in a class and what the advanced students learn in a class (although there are classes specifically for advanced students). If it’s too complicated for the beginner to comprehend, they are not expected to “get it” immediately. In some instances I felt overwhelmed by everything being thrown at me, but found a week later it would just click into place and suddenly make sense. You might not think you’re taking it all in but much of it trickles through into your subconscious.

And this brings me to another important point: everything in Systema is based not on consciously recalling techniques or reactions but by working with your subconscious. There was one very interesting exercise where we divided into two groups of three. Two students attacked the third student (at half-speed for the beginners). The third student would not only have to defend themselves but also use their peripheral vision to observe the third student from the other group and be able to provide constructive criticism of their movements after the exercise was over. And the other third student would be doing the same to them. We cycled through so everyone could have a go (with varying levels of success!). This encouraged the student to focus on something other than the fight so that their subconscious could deal with the opponents. A challenging but interesting exercise.

Much of our time is spent doing slow-speed sparring, which is a lot of fun. I found my sensitivity and awareness increasing. And I found myself starting to perceive movement, distance and balance with more than just my eyes.

Another key principle to Systema is extremely similar to the C’s definition of non-anticipation. Time and time again I was encouraged not to anticipate the attack. If a Systema practitioner were to spar with someone who could read minds, the mind-reader would have a very tough time of it! There are no pre-planned techniques inside the practitioner’s head ready to be executed, so it makes them a difficult person to predict.

And then there is faith, which also appears to coincide with the C’s definition of the word; quite different to the standard dictionary definition. This is what a Systema practitioner employs instead of anticipation. Once you remove the Orthodox Christianity filters it becomes very interesting. I can’t comment too much more on these because I’m just starting to grasp it myself but I'll be sure to post back with more.

Thanks Atreides for suggesting this martial art. Now I can see why it interested you. Did you manage to get time off to visit a Systema class in Paris?

Has anyone else on this forum tried Systema?

 

[dannybananny]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I trained karate shotokan for 13 years, from when I was 8, was in a national team, etc... This was the hole purpose of my life for many years, exactly for most of my life. When my club started to fall apart I quit because I couldn't do it any more, I was in depression because I was broke physical, and needed a break because my life was mostly about that and studying. After that I found about cassiopeans by coincidence and that was what I needed then.

This was sport style and I was doing it semi-professional, when was in the sport school I had 2 trenings a day, later every day one trening. It was hard when I remember that days and this is something that you never forgett because of that programming. It has benefits but also it has negativities. Everyone thinks it's great like every biginner, but the reality is much different. Lots of sweat, blood and tears, fear,living hell sometimes and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and you have to have connections to go to world championship or European in my country.

Everything was ok when you win but when you lose then things get little different, everyone is tapping you on the back when you win but when you lose there's no one. It's microcosmic example of STS system, everything was about hierarchy and ego, who was "better" he had privileges, how would you say he had higher rank because the club got money for someones "succes", and our club was on the spike because our coach didn't like the president of country federation because he was manipulating and was buying votes.

This guy isn't really normal but who cares if they got their piece of cake, no? And there was also national heatred that came handy in that time because he was Serb in Croatia and there was war in Yugoslavia. Then there came sanctions, some went from club because of that, some quit, our coach lost his referee degree(and was one of the best referees in the world, second I think), and club became 3 degree club and once was European champion(1995). It could have been different if our coach did what they asked him to, but it wasn't the right thing to do and he was also stubborn and had big ego like most fighters do, old school.

It's sad story how psychopats work but he continued training kids and he won't quit. Then I realized after a year I quit when I met him, that some people never change and that nothing changed there, that the age means nothing in understanding because most adult people behave like kids. Benefits are good health and travelling(you see the world) but on the other hand ego growes to much, "better" you are ego is bigger. I think sport is illusion because you will never be better or worse from someone else. It is a food for your ego, it makes you think that you are special, worth of something.

That's the problem with ego that wants to prove he is worth of something and people don't know they are alredy worth. People are very insecure in todays world in everyday struggle so they try to find safety in power, they run from first chakra to third, from survival to power, and to excitment . Every competetion is defeat, it's all about money in sport and I use that saying; bread and games. Now I found my little measure of peace in meditation and I train only for healt. I agree that karate isn't good for defense because i was attacked once from back by bunch of guys, it is about speed mostly, but your will gets stronger and i can see that now, and I don't think i would be where I am if there wasn't sport.

Now physicaly I got little lazy so I'am considering systema or krav maga for defense and recreation twice a week. But also I think that it's better to use that time in getting knowledge and that that will save you in 4D, where you'll fight with thoughts not physicaly, (if it was like that we won't stand a chance against some reptilians wagging some 200 pounds or more), but on the other hand this is a part of me which I can't get rid off despite i tried to quit with training, it's to long in my blood, and I think that life is not only in reading but also in experiencing, there are different paths for everyone.


Edit - Paragraphing.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I think sport is illusion because you will never be better or worse from someone else. It is a food for your ego, it makes you think that you are special, worth of something.

Hi dannybananny. It looks to me like you've become disillusioned by the commercial/organizational/feeding aspect of the sport you were involved in. Especially considering that it failed you in a self-defence situation. I feel bad for you since it seems you feel like you wasted so much time and energy.

But also I think that it's better to use that time in getting knowledge and that that will save you in 4D, where you'll fight with thoughts not physicaly, (if it was like that we won't stand a chance against some reptilians wagging some 200 pounds or more), but on the other hand this is a part of me which I can't get rid off despite i tried to quit with training, it's to long in my blood, and I think that life is not only in reading but also in experiencing, there are different paths for everyone.

I agree that it is important to spend time gathering knowledge and experience to prepare for 4D. I think balance is important also. Working out or exercising in some way is a good way to keep all your physical systems strong and your energy levels up. Like the former French naval officer from WWI, Georges Hébert one of the proponents of 'parcours' said: "être fort pour être utile" (be strong to be useful).

Now physicaly I got little lazy so I'am considering systema or krav maga for defense and recreation twice a week.

I don't know systema and am only vaguely familiar with krav maga, but I think you can get out of anything according to what you put into it. If you put in your ego you get back some ego boost, that is, until someone better than you comes along. If you put in your heart, you can get back compassion for those who are weaker and defenceless, and so on.

If I may share my little bit of my experience, I would say that I've never been involved in any organized sporting activity, but if I did, my goals would have to coincide with the club's, otherwise it would be pointless, I think, but I've never been interested in any of that.

I started out being addicted to running. I was a runner ever since 6th grade and loved to jump over things and do other stuff while running. Later on, when I heard about Freerunning, I realized I had been doing that all along even though I never got as good as Mr. Sweatpants here (who, incidentally, seems to look like me when I was in his age range):
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSr1pozm6Y

When I joined the U.S.Navy, my running was severly restrained and I started smoking heavily, practically destroying my stamina. When I could no longer run the way I wanted to I started studying Wing Chun (Ving Tsun / Wing Tsun), especially the explosive style [like that taught by Emin Boztepe]. I was really only interested in the Chi Sao (slap hands/Sticky hands) because most all fights happen within that personal space anyway.
Example: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

I never got far because I had problems finding and keeping a teacher - no one else seemed interested in the art and it's hard to practice alone - even with a wooden or pvc dummy. So right now, the only exercise I have time for is walking a little bit. I'm trying to get back in shape because I want to run again. I've been following the development of Parkour and Freerunning since 1998 and look forward to the day when I can do just a few things I used to do along these lines. But I don't know if that will happen.

I also like the Parkour non-rivalry philosophy:

"Competition pushes people to fight against others for the satisfaction of a crowd and/or the benefits of a few business people by changing its mindset. Parkour is unique and cannot be a competitive sport unless it ignores its altruistic core of self development. If parkour becomes a sport, it will be hard to seriously teach and spread parkour as a non-competitive activity. And a new sport will be spread that may be called parkour, but that won't hold its philosophical essence anymore."

Freerunning founder Sébastien Foucan defines free running as a discipline to self development, following your own way. I was thrilled at reading that.
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_running

If I ever get to meet any of you guys, I hope someone is a runner, because sometimes you just "gotta move it" (see the video), and it's nice to 'move it' with someone. And if you're still young, I recommend checking out Freerunning. The beauty of movement can be just as creative as anything else.



--Edit: delusioned = disillusioned

 

[Nathan]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Now physicaly I got little lazy so I'am considering systema or krav maga for defense and recreation twice a week.

Hi Dannybananny,

Krav maga was mentioned, albeit briefly, early in this thread.

[quote author=atreides]There is no equivalent for Krav maga unles you know a language that copied all of the most brute force tactics from like 5 or 6 other languages, dumbed them down to work for a group of thugs who are only interested in a bloody body count. As a self defense style krav maga is the most psychopathic, and from what I have seen, not very effective unless you are fast and strong already. I have seen some of the crap they teach and it would only work if you were getting raped by someone representing the lowest end of the IQ measuring system.[/quote]

 

[Masamune]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I personally have been interested in martial arts for a long time. I started taking Tang Soo Do when I was about 18. It is similar to Tae Kwon Do and I figured that I would like to start out by working on my legs and kicking. I didn't know much at the time about martial arts and imo ended up mostly wasting my time with this form. I got to the level just below black belt and then had to move as I left town for school. I found that this school that I attended only taught fixed routines in a very rigid style that wasn't very effective for anything except for show. We did spar every week but the teacher didn't teach us any techniques for sparring, we just went at each other with no directions. I feel I personally became rigid mentally and physically from this martial art.

After I moved I studied Hapkido for a few months. Both of these are Korean martial arts. This was less formalized than the previous form and taught some interesting joint locks and takedowns. But at this point I was developing serious health problems and eventually had to quit altogether.

Well a few years later I started to take Yang style Tai Chi at the request of my acupuncturist who had his own school. I studied with his students for about a year and became somewhat proficient. The acupuncturist was from China I believe and studied with Fu Zhongwhen and this was the form I was taught. Sadly though the acupuncturist was very sick while I was studying and he eventually died. So I never got to study directly from him, only from his students. And when he died the school fell apart and everyone lost their discipline and I moved away.

So that is my experience with martial arts. I am interested in getting back into it but I have serious health problems. I am wondering can anyone on the forum recommend an internal martial art that could be practiced by someone with health issues? For example, no quick movements or jerking of the limbs, just a fluid martial art? Tai Chi was good but I am wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a better form of martial art.

 

[thevenusian]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I am interested in getting back into it but I have serious health problems. I am wondering can anyone on the forum recommend an internal martial art that could be practiced by someone with health issues? For example, no quick movements or jerking of the limbs, just a fluid martial art? Tai Chi was good but I am wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a better form of martial art.

There are others here on this forum and in this thread more qualified and experienced than I, but I do have some experience with Aikido. I studied it and practiced regularly for about 7 years until I moved away from the big city and no longer had easy access to a dojo. It really depends upon the teacher and group, but as a martial art, this one incorporates a good mental and physical workout with a philosophy that is more akin to the STO candidate than to the brute force psycho stuff, IMHO. If you are able to find a good group near you, they will work with you from wherever you are physically and not try to push you to conform to abilities which are not yours. Although I have practiced with groups that were somewhat competitive, I have also encountered very sensitive and non-competitive groups with even partially disabled members.

Aikido is a very formalized system of demonstration and then attempting to do what was shown. You learn the Japanese names for all the moves. It sharpens the mind because you really have to pay attention and watch carefully. There is great attention paid to balance, breath and increased body and mind awareness. There is great attention paid toward stretching deep muscles and becoming more limber, flexible and strong. It is almost entirely partner-based, meaning you practice moves/ techniques with ever-changing partners of all ability levels, and the sequence of learning is always balanced between active and passive. Equal time is spent learning the active/ doing part and then learning how to receive that as the one being 'done to'. You learn a pin or hold, and then you learn what it is to be pinned or held. The best teachers respect their students and challenge them, but not beyond their physical capabilities.

There are many good books and materials to learn more about it, and most places of practice will let you come and watch classes to see if you are interested. One of the things that attracted me to Aikido is that it is focused largely on defense, not attack. Although it is possible to walk up to someone and get them into a pin, hold or throw, it is really designed to work with the force of an incoming attack, not initiate one.

As far as being able to use it to defend yourself in a street fight, its probably not the best choice unless you plan to spend many years practicing, and even then not for everyone. At the peak of my own training I worked in some pretty bad neighborhoods and all I can say it did for me in that department is that it made me much more aware of what was going on around me. In the few times where a potential physical confrontation happened, I remained much more calm because I had learned how to evade attack more than perpetrate a defensive attack and that did give me a bit of confidence boost which in turn allowed me to calm things down. It never prevented me from shaking afterward, though

The story which to me illustrates the best of Aiki philosophy is that of a friend of a friend. He was a 2nd degree black belt (the ranking system in Aikido is very much more difficult than most other martial arts, and getting a black belt takes at least 5-7 years for most) and was very proficient. He practiced in New York City, and what he used Aikido for was to conquer his fear. 2 or 3 nights each week he would walk walk through the worst neighborhoods he could find with the object of never engaging in conflict. Even though he was better prepared than most to deal with a physical threat, he used this to become 'invisible' and walk through danger without ever getting into a fight. At its core, the Aikido philosophy puts actual fighting as the option of last resort.

Edit - Paragraphing

 

[Masamune]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Hi thevenusian,
Aikido sounds interesting but I do not think that I can be involved with any physical contact at this point. My neck is very weak and the slightest contact can cause me serious problems. Can this martial art be done without physical contact? That is what enabled me to take Tai Chi, there was never any contact with another person or pushing or pulling. From what I know of Aikido it is a lot of take downs and that is not something I can participate in. :/

 

[obyvatel]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Hi Masamune,
Perhaps some chiropractic/chi gung/ yoga based exercises would help you heal yourself first. It may be difficult to find a real "martial" art with no physical contact and no forceful moves. Yang style taichi form practice alone is supposed to have health benefits - but unless the teacher has knowledge about the real dim mak aspects of taichi , the martial value of it is questionable. Pakua is an internal martial art but pakua forms involve circle walking and fast direction changes which may not be good for a weak neck. I do not have direct experience with Hsing-i, the third classical chinese internal martial art form but it is said to be more combat oriented.