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[atreides]

Oh by the way... Pertaining to the original request of this thread...

http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

I looked around the above site just a bit in the past. At a glance, it looks like mostly fencing manuals, but I seem to remember that I found some wrestling manuals there with some interesting illustrations. Also, Atreides, a google search of "shillelagh" gives a bunch of sites discussing Irish martial arts, but I do not know how accurate it is. I think a "shillelagh" is basically a wooden mace. Not long like an Asian cane and not short like Kali sticks but about the length of a walking stick. Amongst all the hits of the google search I suggested is this page

http://johnwhurley.com/hurleyframeset-2.html

which lists the following as still existing books that describe to some degree or another Irish martial arts:

Traits and Stories of The Irish Peasantry, by William Carleton (1830);

Defensive Exercises, by Donald Walker (1840);

Broad-Sword and Single-Stick, by R.G. Allanson-Winn (1890);

The Irish Faction Fighters Of The 19th Century, by Patrick O'Donnell (1975).

Learning is fun (except when it causes bruising ;) (and sometimes even then ;) ))

Hi,

Ya, I have seen those and even tried chatting joe up about it, I think stickfighting has some interesting clues, from a martial arts historian perspective, though at the same time, it also seems to be a really natural martial art, however there are some interesting similarities from irish to canary islands and all over the place. fun times, as an interesting aside I just had a nice conversation through email with Remy Presas(jr) who's gonna be comin to france in february looks like, I may go, it should be kinda fun.

 

[Pierre]

"Winning" a fight might have some interest for the ego, so it could be important or even an end in the fight sport realm but at internal work/martial art level it's not an essential point.

There are probably many ways leading to impeccability. In a martial art school, fight is only a minor part of the teachings, a lot of time is spend on other things like breathing, meditating,... however fight is a necessary component (particularly fight involving weapons and one against several) because it helps the disciple to learn about essential factors : fear and death.

Don't see the differences, see how it is all the same.

Ultimately everything is the same, everything is one. Blue and red are not different. They are both colors. From this perspective fight sports (ie physical performance seeking victory) and martial arts (body-mind harmony seeking "impeccability") are indeed the same.

As for musashi, he was the greatest swordsman who ever lived and he was a great philosopher, a sort of Diogenes of the Japanese.

I don't know if Musashi was the greatest swordman but I guess the books dealing with his figther life and then with his martial art life can be interesting.

 

[Gaby]

ScioAgapeOmnis wrote: But you failed to win.

Yes, but this does not mean that I failed as a fighter. The fighter remains. That was my point. If I lose then I simply continue practicing. It is knowledge and its application that will eventually defeat or neutralize my opponent.

Your desire to win over your opponent at all costs will defeat you. Winning is based on overcoming your opponent. However, neutralizing your opponent is based on knowledge and skill and it may not appear as a 'win.'

Hm, more Yoda teachings: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

 

[Novelis]

...Hello again,
I said in my last post that I will look for some books about martial arts with Chinese.

But some of these I would really like in the original language, I would so jones for Sun Tzu in Chinese, I can't really read Chinese, but it's you know...

I'm afraid I don't know, why do you want it in Chinese?
Anyway, I've found these books that contain Chinese that are along the same kinda vein as Sun Tzu's classic "The art of War":

ISBN: 0940871084
Hsing-Yi Chuan: Theory of Applications by Dr Yang Jwing Ming

This book has some beautiful Chinese words about how the five elements work in the body and some pretty deep thoughts on fighting spirit, you might like it.

ISBN:1886969728
Liuhebafa Five Character Secrets by Paul Dillan

A martial arts student will spend years and years practicing forms, rooting, gaining strength and flexibility, but his understanding of fighting spirit doesn't truly blossom until he "enters the masters chamber" where he'll be given 5 characters every year to contemplate and fully digest, afterwards, another 5 characters are given to him... this goes on until he becomes a true master of the art. This book is apparently these secrets given students for the mysterious art of Liuhebafa (6 harmonies 8 methods) along with commentaries. I find the Chinese contained very profound, and a perfect addition to my study of the Tao Te Ching and Tai Chi. As my understanding improves, I keep thinking back to the first secret I read and finding new meaning, it's awesome.

Finally,
ISBN:0345379918
Art of Warfare by D.C Lau

This book is by D.C Lau, I don't know if it contains Chinese, but I have another book translated by him, namely the Tao Te Ching, which DOES have lots of Chinese since it's the bilingual edition, his translation is careful and thoughtful while he also pays close attention to detail in research. His attempt to clear up corruptions within the text is the best I've come across, if anyone knows of anyone better, please let me know. It's fascinating how one change in character can change the meaning so dramatically. Translation is a common problem within most Chinese texts translated into English, there are just so many points to take into account, I'd find a good translator and learn about the culture if you want to get closer to the objective truth of the words.
I'd say learning the language is probably best but...

Anyway, I hope this helps, I know you said you just wanted the art of war with Chinese in, but these books essentially come from the same source and can be useful for reference from a martial arts historian point of view.
I hope to see you all on the battle field (Physical or otherwise) sometime, hopefully on the same "side".

 

[atreides]

I'm afraid I don't know, why do you want it in Chinese?

Just to have it :)

I am interested in the Dillon book, can you give me some examples?

 

[atreides]

I thought I would share this with y'all, I like this guy and I agree with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXaFWkkZ-qc

Also, to those who are interested in pure martial arts discussion, I have an old project that's been abandoned for some time which was a forum where I was posting some of my martial arts writings at the encouragement of L, anyone who wants to read, respond, discuss can do so at www.weirding-way.com Just sign up and have at it... I am going through my old writings and seeing if they need revamping, input is always good during editing :) Maybe you will come and help me out a bit.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I thought I would share this with y'all, I like this guy and I agree with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXaFWkkZ-qc

I liked it even better the 2nd time through.

 

[noise]

After that last video which I found somewhat bias against the artistic/acrobatic side of martial arts. Certainly the video has it's place in the brutal side of combat, I more enjoy what the body is capable of in terms of jumping and challenging the laws of coordination and flexability. It may be true that I at times lose to inanimate objects when I am angry and couldn't hurt a fly but I like "martial arts" for the "art." I dunno if you like the sound of those apples. :)

Sorry but I have to take a moment to undermine the subject of your kung-fu fighting. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQu0ue40_2g

Hope that was worth 3.5 minutes of your time. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. ;-b

 

[atreides]

Hi noise

I have to agree that it was biased towards the martial and less towards the art in the sense of aesthetics. And I am actually with you as I collect kicks, it's a hobby, high flying and technically difficult kicks that would get a person hurt in a fight, but are none the less fun to do (even though my girth only permits me to learn certain kicks not dependant on altitude). Have you ever checked out that martial arts trickz website www.bilang.com, though I forget where they are, there is an entire subculture dedicated to demos which are like music videos where they do crazy MA tricks instead of dancing. You can see some comps here http://www.bilang.com/system.php?cat=youtube&page=fs

I don't know where I found those demos I was talking about, tried to find them but didn't. Anyway, hope you like, most of the good stuff usually comes from Wushu and Capoeira.

You might be interested also in Poi (Anna and I do it) or glowstringing. Which is like Whipchain meets Nunchukus with trippy lights or fire.

 

[Ruth]

I agree with you Atreides, One reason why I fail is because I aim too high without understanding the level of my skill in martial arts. When I set out to learn Tai chi, I at first wanted to know about how the movements applied to self defence, but I realised that until the first stage is reached and I'm in good health, it's pointless to think about fighting. In being honest with myself I realised that my body is in complete disorder, so I must start from the absolute beginning level I am at and practice. Many people get into martial arts for the fighting, they go through tons of reading about applications and how to become unbeatable, but for me, I think these people don't understand the true meaning of martial arts, it's not about "better than you", it's about a "better me".

I had a couple of questions... And I have come to the conclusion that I am not moving center dominated, so that might be why I ask...

In order to 'succeed', rather than 'fail' at martial arts (I put both of these in inverterted commas - because one person's success may be anothers failure), does one need to have a more developed or overdeveloped moving center? Are people with these, more likely to be combative, compeditive, all or nothing types?

And does this moving center influence how a person sees either success or failure? Is a moving centered dominated person likely to be a bit of an 'all or nothing' person?

Does a person 'fail' (or at least not reach their potential) when they put their most underdeveloped or perhaps non-dominant center in control (and expect it to acheive 'good' things)? Like putting the wrong fuel in the machine.

 

[noise]

I'll certainly check them out. Currently uploading some stuff. My mind is kinda wandering. I thought to jet out for a few to see a friend just up the street and he's crashed so I thought I'd twist my ankle on his porch. I wanted to note that right off I thought of your wife anart (Ann Anna Anne?) and had no idea why you wanted to talk to me about these things with "GlowStrings.. Whip('s'n')Chain's.." :) Theres at times some name comfusion but I get your reference. There was a pause of rereading I must admit. No tellin' what them Martial Artists are Doin' these days. :)

I intend to check those links pretty quick, still uploading..

Edit: wandering: The second link looked pretty interesting looks like I'll have to check around the first one. 2nd link; I never got my game there. I was ok with some spinning kicks once upon a time. It never occured to my to try and get some inertia and go for some spins.. that was pretty dope man.

Hope the whine was ok, it was funny, his gf opened the door, "he's asleep," so I took one step back onto the lower step with my foot right at the right point where the grass is lower.. "click." :) I think you'da been proud. lol!

 

[Ruth]

I think you're talking about sort of a vague feel-good nonsense that kids are brainwashed with in American schools to "uplift" their self-esteem and self-worth - at the expensive of their ability to perceive reality. Basically no matter what they do, they are praised for it, told that they are bright and smart and have a lot of potential, and that everything is "ok" and the infamous "you did your best" as Atreides mentioned. Ironically, what seems to escape them is that this is actually utterly insulting - what they are saying is when you're at your BEST, you are an utter failure. How is that supposed to make you feel better about yourself? If anything, it conditions you to think that you cannot do any better, that this is indeed the best you can do, you've reached your limit and your potential and that this level is acceptable.

I think if a person spends their time competing against the matrix and fighting (competeing) in an sts heirachy, failure is inevitable as there is always someone better. The only way out of such a waste of energy is to learn. At the end of the day, the only failure is not to learn.

You lose when you think you are a failure because you lost. It's not about winning or losing. It's about learning.

I agree that learning is important but isn't it important so you can succeed at stuff by applying your knowledge successfully? I mean, losing can teach you what you did wrong, and so you can learn from your falls and losses, and then get better, and maybe win next time, osit. What's the point of learning to fight if you have no intention to win any fights? And how do you know that you really learned anything if you can't win? Maybe you're learning it wrong, or learning the wrong stuff?

Would depend on intent, I suppose, why is a person intent on winning? Is there some sto merrit to competeing in an sts hierachy and wining? Maybe this is the 'trick' question that fools us all.

I'm under the impression that if all there is is lessons, the whole point of those lessons is so we can learn them, and then get to the last level and fight the end boss and totally win.

Beat the boss at his own game? I don't think so - you lose! As you become what they are simply by fighting them and beating them at their own game, a person ends up as the thing they fought.

Of course if you get your butt kicked on level 3 (out of 7), you just get up, dust yourself off, and try again and hope you learn from your mistakes. Then you get to level 4, 5, 6, and 7, and when you do that last finishing move at level 7, assuming you get it right, you get to watch the ending credits. Then you reset the system and play again from level 1. I mean what good is a game if it has no replay value? But I've been wrong before :P

Sounds a bit like a loop or maybe just stuck on the chess board of life.

 

[atreides]

I had a couple of questions... And I have come to the conclusion that I am not moving center dominated, so that might be why I ask...

You are missing something key here, martial arts isn't limited to physical, in fact the largest part of it is mental, spiritual. If you aren't moving center oriented then martial arts is a good moving center workout, so not being moving center dominated doesn't exclude being able to learn martial arts, it probably means that you really should. The idea in life may have something to do with understanding new things. If you don't understand why someone does martial arts, then do them and find out.

In order to 'succeed', rather than 'fail' at martial arts (I put both of these in inverterted commas - because one person's success may be anothers failure), does one need to have a more developed or overdeveloped moving center? Are people with these, more likely to be combative, compeditive, all or nothing types?

Again this really isn't the point at all, all or nothing is a negative way of putting it, you understand the connotations of those words. Combat and competition are not exclusively physical things, you can have a bit of word combat, or you can have emotional combat. You can also have emotional and verbal bullying, those people who learn to grow and cope with non-physical victimization are in my mind just as much martial artists as Bruce Lee. Alot of times, we refer to people who have been emotionally hurt as "the walking wounded", doesn't that bring violent images to mind? Martial arts is about breaking out of the cycle of being a victim, and moral martial arts, those based on solid sto oriented philosophies are about breaking out of said victimization cycle and avoiding becoming a victimizer. In reality, moral martial arts can be considered to be supremely STO, to put it into those terms.

And does this moving center influence how a person sees either success or failure? Is a moving centered dominated person likely to be a bit of an 'all or nothing' person?

Yes and no in the sense that you are mixing up some ideas, the moving center is, to my understanding mind you, like a powerhouse, it does feed a part of the personality which influences how a person sees success or failure. Don't confuse the gas tank with the gas pedal.

Does a person 'fail' (or at least not reach their potential) when they put their most underdeveloped or perhaps non-dominant center in control (and expect it to acheive 'good' things)? Like putting the wrong fuel in the machine.

No, you are quite a jumbol with all of thise. Putting a non dominant center at the forefront of training is a good thing, one can only learn by exposing weakness to the elements.

 

[atreides]

I think if a person spends their time competing against the matrix and fighting (competeing) in an sts heirachy, failure is inevitable as there is always someone better. The only way out of such a waste of energy is to learn. At the end of the day, the only failure is not to learn.

You are being litteral and metaphoric in strange places. We are all in the matrix and getting out is a "battle" of sorts. Competitions in the current sense and combats in the current martial sense are not one and the same. One learns easiest when confronted with pain, conflict, or friction, remember conscious suffering?

Beat the boss at his own game? I don't think so - you lose! As you become what they are simply by fighting them and beating them at their own game, a person ends up as the thing they fought.

You are glancing over the metaphor to split hairs. Who is to say that the big boss you face in the end isn't your own ego? Or your weakness, or like is a common mythical battle, the mirror image test. Where you have to face off with the embodiment of all of your ills and evils?

Sounds a bit like a loop or maybe just stuck on the chess board of life.

We are already stuck on the chess board, and everything around us is a faux civilized self tranquilization routine, we are talking about martial arts as a way to break out of the cycle you and I are in, currently. Martial arts didn't get us here, the 60s did.

 

[Marie]

Hi,

As some know I've taken up karate a few months ago, and now it's the end of their "session" and it's pretty clear to me that I don't really want to keep on with it, because it's just obvious that some of the stuff doesn't work.

First of all, we learned more blocks than anything else, and I can see why they're useless - what the teacher says is that for a block to be effective you have to stop it before is bypasses the shoulder - and well, seems to me that it just doesn't work, plus most of the blocks are obviously intended to be used when the strike gets to you.

Also I don't trust some of those forms they show us - like something they call "downward hammer", which is basically reacting to someone grabbing your wrist by making a block for an expected crochet from the other side - and leaving yourself completely open in the front. Seems to me those things only work if your opponent is doing a predictable routine. What if they choose to do something else - such as, say, punch you from the front?

Anyways I've looked into some of the things that were mentioned here - I kinda dropped everything that was done with weapons because I figured that if /when I have to fight I'm unlikely to have a weapon . What looks real interesting to me is Wing Tsu and Wu Xing.

While doing a pretty general search I found the following stuff, which I thought might be interesting regarding the original request - it's basically things that people said on a Chinese history forum:

SCP, the most original statement of the Wu Xing school is the Hongfan (Great Norm) chapter of the Shangshu/Shujing. I think you can look for Legge's classic translation of the Shangshu. All elaborations and expansions on the Wu Xing philosophy by the Han Confucians (including Dong Zhongshu) used the Hongfan as a starting point.

Aihe Wang's book "Cosmology and Political Culture in Early China" (2000) discusses the development of Wuxing, including its precedent in the Shang Dynasty's "Sifang" system. She stresses that there were numerous Wuxing systems in existence, before it finally stabilized. Some of the sources she mentions are: Hongfan chapter of the Shangshu, The Lushi Chunqiu, The Zuo Zhuan, The Guanzi, the Huainanzi (chapters 3, 4, 5), The Mawangdui Xingde text, and the Shuihudi Rishu (Daybooks).

Not sure if this was what you were looking for Atreides, but I thought it might be relevant to martial arts and/or your project.

I figured that Wing Tsu and Wing Chu were the same thing; somebody please tell me if they're not. I really like that idea of using the attacker's own strength against them, because, well, the situations where knowing how to fight would have been useful in the past always involved a size disadvantage for me.

Now Wu Xing seems to be a science applied to all kinds of different ends - something like the idea of ch'i, like a theory of the way people and things work, and it's been mentioned that the one-inch punch is done using Wu Xing, and several of the websites that sell Wing Chu/Tsu courses mention (promise?) the one-inch punch - therefore Wing Tsu includes studying some Wu Xing? Or is it better to study Wu Xing separately?

I decided I would teach myself from books seen as I'm geographically challenged (i.e. I live far from cities), and there's nowhere to find such courses. I have seen a lot of books for sale, but a lot of them look suspicious (like way too commercial), and well, would anyone have a suggestion of good books or writers on the subject(s)?