Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

Laura said:
Bear said:
The book that talks about the Magusaeans that this quote is talking about is 'Les Mages Hellenises' by Franz Cumont and Joseph Bidez and might be worth checking out in relation to the origin/spread of Mithraism.

Also found this interesting link that talks about the influence of Mithraism on Christianity.
http://www.cogwriter.com/christianity-mithraism.htm

It does seem that it is possible that the Mithraic Mysteries may have been a repository for some of these ideas via its astrological symbolism. What is interesting is that just at the time the worship of Divus Julius disappeared, not one, but TWO religions emerged: The Mysteries of Mithras and Christianity.

Yeah really interesting. From reading the above link it really does seem like competition between the two that came to head with Constantine, who seemed to make changes, etc that mixed aspects of the two to start to form the Catholic church. I've been searching for book by Aiken C.F. 'Mithraism and Christianity' cited numerous times in the link since it looked to be interesting as a place to start reading and researching and it is hardly mentioned on the internet that I could find let alone finding a copy of it.
 
Bear said:
Yeah really interesting. From reading the above link it really does seem like competition between the two that came to head with Constantine, who seemed to make changes, etc that mixed aspects of the two to start to form the Catholic church. I've been searching for book by Aiken C.F. 'Mithraism and Christianity' cited numerous times in the link since it looked to be interesting as a place to start reading and researching and it is hardly mentioned on the internet that I could find let alone finding a copy of it.

Indeed it seems to have been a worship-this-competition since Constantine showed up and set the standard.
Adding to the gospel-competition that Laura has already hinted at, it stuck me what was going on at the time of Elagabalus AKA Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus:

Since the reign of Septimius Severus, sun worship had increased throughout the Empire.[34] Elagabalus saw this as an opportunity to install Elagabal as the chief deity of the Roman pantheon. The god was renamed Deus Sol Invictus, meaning God the Undefeated Sun, and honored above Jupiter.

It's like witnessing the PTBs of that time trying every day to find the perfect potion for the best form of Control System. There has never been any kind of 'Religion' out there, just experiments. It's jaw-dropping.
 
Whilst recapitulating some notes on 'Lost Christianity (Jacob Needleman) I came across the following (p194):

Proceeding with the discussion of the soul, he then writes of the centuries immediately following the death of Christ:
A great division appeared. The sayings of Christ were gathered into a system of moral idealism and belief, attracting more and more followers from the decaying civilization of the Roman Empire. Apart from this form of Christianity, however, there persisted another version of the teaching. It found various expressions. It made innovative use of the scientific language of the period, the language of Greek science and philosophy (Stioc?). It employed mystic symbols in forms carefully altered to convey truth without supporting the formation of belief and opinion (Mythraic?).

The version contained and emphasized the theory and practice of the formation of the intermediate principle in man.

Only broken fragments of these expressions have survived the passage of centuries. The force and life of these expressions was great. Those who cherished this teaching never sought to convert students to it. ...
 
Hello guys, I'd like to add something that might be of interest. I couldn't read the whole thread yet but I'm getting there. I wrote the following and suppose it best fits here. Since the website I'm relating to is only available in German language I started out in German and translated it afterwards, hope this isnt too confusing. I'm leaving my original text in because I was lacking some terms and someone might know a suitable one.

Und dann diese interessante Seite von Stefan Wehmeier // And then this interesting site by Stefan Wehmeier:
http://www.deweles.de/intro.html

Der Author ist überzeugt, dass die Genesis in der Bibel und die Nag Hammadi Schriften (Gospel des Thomas) in Wahrheit die geniale Beschreibung einer gerechten Makroökonomie darstellen. Um ein Beispiel zu geben: Die Erbsünde representiert bei dieser Betrachtung die Verzinsung des Geldes als zentrales Element zwischenmenschlicher Beziehungen und die dadurch resultierende Zinsknechtschaft der stetig wachsenden armen Bevölkerung (Die Verbannung der Menschen aus Eden). Wobei das Paradies die sogenannte Natürliche Wirtschaftsordnung symbolisiert, welche im Laufe der Ausführungen umfangreich beschrieben wird und als zentrale Elemente
a) die Aufhebung des Zinses und die Einführung von Freigeld mit Wertverlust sowie
b) die Abschaffung jeglicher Monopole, insbesondere des Bodenmonopols enthält.
Soweit meine kurze Zusammenfassung.

// The author is convinced that the Genesis of the Bible and the Nag Hammadi scriptures (Gospel of Thomas) actually represent an ingenious description of a just macroeconomy. For instance the "original sin" (not sure if this is the correct translation - it is the act of Eve taking the apple and sharing it with Adam) represents the introduction of interest to currency as the central element of interpersonal relations and the resulting "subjugation through interest" or interest slavery of the steadily growing poor populace (casting humans out of Eden). Whereas the Paradise symbolizes the so called Natural Economic Order, which is being described extensively and contains as central elements
a) the dissolution of interest and the introduction of Free Money with decreasing value as well as
b) the abolishment of all monopolies, especially the monopoly for estate or property of such.
So far my short synopsis.


Als ich Francesco Carotta entdeckte und den SOTT Podcast http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottnet/2013/07/14/who-was-jesus zu dem Thema hörte, ob Jesus möglicherweise in Wirklichkeit Caesar gewesen sein könnte, kam mir diese Webseite wieder in Erinnerung. Und dachte mir, falls etwas an der Interpretation dran ist, dass in den heiligen Schriften makroökonomische Betrachtungen versteckt sind, so könnte man naheliegenderweise jemandem wie Julius Ceasar GERADE DIES zutrauen. Zumal er außerdem offenbar so großzügig zu seinen unter der Zinsknechtschaft leidenden Mitmenschen war und nämlich genau oben beschriebenes getan haben soll: Die Abschaffung des Bodenmonopols und die Verteilung oder Verpachtung an Sklaven und Soldaten. Interessanter Gedanke, findet ihr nicht?

// When I discovered Francesco Carotta and listened to the SOTT Podcast http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sottnet/2013/07/14/who-was-jesus discussing whether Jesus might actually have been Caesar, I recalled the above mentioned website. I thought to myself, if there is a grain of truth in the interpretation that there are concealed macro economical considerations in the Holy Scriptures, wouldn't it be plausible to envision someone like Julius Caesar to having done JUST THAT. Particularly because he was apparently very generous to those fellow human beings who suffered under the "subjugation through interest" and supposedly did exactly what has been described above: The Abolishment of the monopoly of estate (for the lack of a better word) and the distribution or demise of property to slaves and soldiers.

Interesting thought don't you think?
 
I just listened to the radio talk show about Jesus and already watched the documentary, now I just need to read the recommended books about him and Jesus. Wow, just wow, this man sounds like an amazing personality.

But I'm kinda confused about certain topics, related to some cs references and about the mithraic religion. Well, I remember I've read in the secret history that the christian religion was created from judaism and paganism, and well, the mithraic mysteries or religion is considered supposedly in some online pages I've read, the pagan christianism. Do you know of any good books about the mithraic mysteries or something related? I kinda think that was a real paleo-christianism, but I want to know more about it. Also the mithraic religion is considered to be a cult focused on the gnosis.

And, if Caesar was Jesus, can we still consider that Jesus is the same person as the Christ, so that when they talk about the return of Christ is like the return of Caesar or his soul?
 
Well, I remember I've read in the secret history that the christian religion was created from judaism and paganism, and well, the mithraic mysteries or religion is considered supposedly in some online pages I've read, the pagan christianism. Do you know of any good books about the mithraic mysteries or something related?



This source has a good selection of books on the subject.

http://archive.org/search.php?query=Mithraism
 
Prometeo said:
Do you know of any good books about the mithraic mysteries or something related? I kinda think that was a real paleo-christianism, but I want to know more about it. Also the mithraic religion is considered to be a cult focused on the gnosis.

Somebody mentioned David Ulansey's book The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries which I've got and just started. It's quite an interesting book so far but I'm still at the stage where he's questioning the commonly held belief that it originated in Persia - I've yet to read what he thinks it was all about.

Prometeo said:
And, if Caesar was Jesus, can we still consider that Jesus is the same person as the Christ, so that when they talk about the return of Christ is like the return of Caesar or his soul?

Well, as far as I know, "Jesus" as a person never existed so I wouldn't be holding my breath for his return :D I think Jesus' success throughout the last couple of thousand years has been in large part due to a desire on behalf of most people for someone to take responsibilty for them; to miraculously save them from death and suffering. (And here I would really recommend Ernest Becker's Escape from Evil as to how/why people do that - it's actually on the list of recommended reading for this particular topic). Major wishful thinking! One of the things about this Jesus was Caesar idea that has really helped me is that it's helped to kill (even more!) this idea that someone out there is going to come back and save us; that there is some magician who can miraculously fix everything and lead the way in showing us all how to be magicians just like him. Caesar was human, Jesus was fiction - what does that tell you? To me, it says to look outside for role models by all means, but look within for salvation. Wasn't it "Jesus" who said that "salvation lies within"? And then the church twisted it completely around and said that salvation lies in Jesus (i.e. without)! Anyway, in trying to clarify, I would say that learning about the Jesus/Caesar connection has for me, helped to cure me of any remaining vestiges of magical/wishful thinking with regards to being rescued :)
 
Don Genaro said:
Prometeo said:
And, if Caesar was Jesus, can we still consider that Jesus is the same person as the Christ, so that when they talk about the return of Christ is like the return of Caesar or his soul?

Well, as far as I know, "Jesus" as a person never existed so I wouldn't be holding my breath for his return :D I think Jesus' success throughout the last couple of thousand years has been in large part due to a desire on behalf of most people for someone to take responsibilty for them; to miraculously save them from death and suffering. (And here I would really recommend Ernest Becker's Escape from Evil as to how/why people do that - it's actually on the list of recommended reading for this particular topic). Major wishful thinking! One of the things about this Jesus was Caesar idea that has really helped me is that it's helped to kill (even more!) this idea that someone out there is going to come back and save us; that there is some magician who can miraculously fix everything and lead the way in showing us all how to be magicians just like him. Caesar was human, Jesus was fiction - what does that tell you? To me, it says to look outside for role models by all means, but look within for salvation. Wasn't it "Jesus" who said that "salvation lies within"? And then the church twisted it completely around and said that salvation lies in Jesus (i.e. without)! Anyway, in trying to clarify, I would say that learning about the Jesus/Caesar connection has for me, helped to cure me of any remaining vestiges of magical/wishful thinking with regards to being rescued :)

I agree with you, Don Genaro. I think is part of our responsibility as adults to take charge of our lifes (and our destiny, to the extent that it is in our hands), that salvation lies within and develop up to us not to be a mere physical body wishing that to other come and make us be more than that. I also believe that this is the nightmare for many Christians, a difficult one to wake up. In any case I think the theme of Christ/Caesar opens up many exciting possibilities to destroy false hopes and the obligation and joy to work and learn as much as we can. How was said on the radio talk show, completely changes the meaning of being a Christian. And gives a new foundation for other religion! No saviors or magical thinking, but with conscious efforts to develop the Conscience/Soul recognizing the limits we have in this environment 3d sts. And supporting us in science to get to know ourselves and others and life to create a different future(s).

Also think it's interesting to know who is who in our history so distorted. Who was that man in Palestine and who the real Christ/Caesar. Obviously without waiting saviors, destroy all those programs that make us sick of expectations of being and control of ethereal realms (I think the idea of ​​"heaven", its mere description, is a way of wanting to impose to life as all it should be. And given our specie, too anthropocentric the matter). Maybe it could see the imposition of monotheism as multidimensional techniques to enslave humans wanting (wishful thinking) lies?
 
I may have missed some of the thread as it was very lengthy. However, I do want to add something here just in case I did miss it and it wasn't mentioned. There was some sort of documentary on TV that talked about the potential for Jesus Christ being Ceasar, but not the same Ceasar that ruled at that time. He was a 50 year old man by that time, I think. Ceasar was a title, not a man. The title to the rightful ruler of Roman empire. It was Ceasarion, the one supposedly killed. Instead, he was hustled out of Egypt by Jesus and Mary, who was a virgin yet with child, to avoid being killed when Cleopatra and Anthony were captured. That kind of contradicts though the C's transcripts that say Mary was Jesus' mother and was impregnated by someone appointed to do that. Unless, and this is a long shot, Mary was Cleopatra. Back in those days, they love to switch identities and pretend to die away, reappearing as someone else. So, I really don't know. Also, I do believe even Ceasarion's age wasn't quite right unless the time was also changed. Maybe, Mary and Joseph had a son, it died or it got traded for Ceasarion when they went to Egypt and they came back with him. It's not like they had photography back then, and people did this sort of stuff all the time especially if a new identity would save their lives. I am a Christian and I believe Jesus was a very special entity, but the rest of the details of the story I think were convenient for creating mass mind control. The reason I think Jesus might have been Ceasarion is because of the details of Jesus' life story. His followers were awaiting his "kingdom" and it seems Judas, at least, thought it was a physical kingdom. He could only lay claim to a physical kingdom if he had royal blood. Also, how is it that Jesus disappears for seven or more years and returns with all the qualities of an Egyptian initiate? They didn't just let ANYONE into those mystery schools. He had to have had the pedigree and someone within his family had to maintain those connections. It's all very fishy, no pun intended. Love the person of Jesus and the gnostic teachings, but his Biblical story is pretty corrupt, I think. We may never know what happened.

http://tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com/2011/02/25/what-happened-to-cleopatras-and-julius-caesars-son/

Claire
 
zena said:
Okay, I'll go back and review.

Hint: if you study the matter closely, you'll figure out that Caesarion was really and truly dead. Octavian was not about to leave a living rival to his power.
 
Thanks for that hint. I have heard Ceasarion died from other sources, I just don't know because anyone can fake a death. But, what has me MOST confused on this thread (and probably because I am a newbie) is the way you all are relating to the information on each other posts. Someone says, Mary was Magdalene in Ceasar's story. Another says, the Jesus story is fabricated and not about Ceasar, but about a concept of Mithras religion. And, so on. They all are good points, but it is confusing because I am not certain the topic is saying: "Jesus Christ didn't exist and he was a logos of Julius Ceasar." Or, "Jesus Christ existed and was the story of Julius Ceasar's life." There's a timing issue that sticks out at me with the second thought. Julius Ceasar was too old to be the Christ crucified (and yes I saw the posting about the ceremonial funeral). How can the transcripts talk about Jesus Christ as if he was an actual person conceived by Mary by some priest, and then go on to suggest the Jesus Crhist story in the Bible is about Ceasar as an idea and there was no actual crucifixion? Are there two people or only one? Or are there three, one Julius Ceasar, one born Yeseverah (probably got the spelling wrong) and another 6th-density entity that inhabits him later on? To be quite clear, I don't think the answer really enthralls me that much. I am not debating anyone's findings. I am far more interested in learning the proper way to "network" with you guys through practice. So, for now, it's been a good discussion and not really intent on pegging down what my personal "truth" is about Jesus Christ. Thank you. Whatever the group learns is interesting to me and I will continue to watch this thread.
 
You might want to listen to the SOTT radio show on the topic. Or read the transcript:
http://www.sott.net/article/264750-SOTT-Talk-Radio-Who-was-Jesus

There are other articles and videos linked in this thread that will help.
 
I've been reading Did Jesus Exist? by Bart Ehrman -- it's supposed to be an unbiased collection of evidence for the historical existence of Jesus, but in the end it is actually somewhat biased (or lacking some crucial data, at least). One of the good things about the book, though, is that it collects a list of historical figures and scholars who have argued both sides of the question. One person in particular, Bruno Bauer, stood out to me because "Christianity, he concluded, was an amalgamation of Judaism and the Roman philosophy of Stoicism." Here's a summary of his views and work from Wikipedia:

Views on Christian origins

Bauer's criticism of the New Testament was highly deconstructive. David Strauss, in his Life of Jesus, had accounted for the Gospel narratives as half-conscious products of the mythic instinct in the early Christian communities. Bauer ridiculed Strauss's notion that a community could produce a connected narrative. Rather, only a single writer could be responsible for the first Gospel. His own contention, embodying a theory of Christian Gottlob Wilke (Der Urevangelist, 1838), was that the original narrative was the Gospel of Mark.

For Bruno Bauer, the Gospel of Mark was completed in the reign (117-138) of Hadrian (where its prototype, the 'Ur-Marcus,' identifiable within the Gospel of Mark by a critical analysis, was begun around the time of Josephus and the Roman-Jewish Wars). Bauer, like other advocates of this 'Marcan Hypothesis', affirmed that all the other Gospel narratives used the Gospel of Mark as their model within their writing communities.

In 1906 Albert Schweitzer wrote that Bauer "originally sought to defend the honor of Jesus by rescuing his reputation from the inane parody of a biography that the Christian apologists had forged." However, he eventually came to the belief that it was a complete fiction and "regarded the Gospel of Mark not only as the first narrator, but even as the creator of the gospel history, thus making the latter a fiction and Christianity the invention of a single original evangelist" (Otto Pfleiderer).

Although Bauer did investigate the 'Ur-Marcus,' it was his remarks on the current version of the Gospel of Mark that captured popular attention. In particular, some key themes in the Gospel of Mark appeared to be literary. The Messianic Secret theme, in which Jesus continually performed wonders and then continually told the viewers not to tell anybody that he did this, seemed to Bauer to be an example of fiction. If the Messianic Secret is a fiction, Bauer wrote, then the redactor who added that theme was probably the final redactor of our current version of the Gospel of Mark. In 1901, Wilhelm Wrede would make his lasting fame by repeating many of Bauer's ideas in his book, The Messianic Secret.

Also, for some influential theologians in the Tübingen School, several Pauline epistles were regarded as forgeries of the 2nd century. Bauer radicalised that position by suggesting that all Pauline epistles were forgeries, written in the West in antagonism to the Paul of The Acts. Bauer observed a preponderance of the Greco-Roman element, over and above the Jewish element, in Christian writings, and he added a wealth of historical background to support his theory; though modern scholars such as E. P. Sanders and John P. Meier have disputed this theory and attempted to demonstrate a mainly Jewish historical background. Other authors, such as Rudolf Bultmann, tended to agree that a Greco-Roman element was dominant.

According to Bruno Bauer, the writer of Mark's gospel was "an Italian, at home both in Rome and Alexandria"; that of Matthew's gospel "a Roman, nourished by the spirit of Seneca"; Christianity is essentially "Stoicism triumphant in a Jewish garb."

What Bruno Bauer added was a deep review of European literature in the 1st century. In his estimation, many key themes of the New Testament, especially those that are opposed to themes in the Old Testament, can be found with relative ease in Greco-Roman literature that flourished during the 1st century. Such a position was also maintained by some Jewish scholars.

Bauer's final book, Christ and the Caesars (1877) offers a penetrating analysis that shows common key-words in the words of 1st-century writers like Seneca the Stoic and New Testament texts. While this had been perceived even in ancient times, the ancient explanation was that Seneca 'must have been' a secret Christian. Bruno Bauer was perhaps the first to attempt to carefully demonstrate that some New Testament writers freely borrowed from Seneca the Stoic. One modern explanation is that common cultures share common thought-forms and common patterns of speech; that similarities do not necessarily indicate borrowing.

In Christ and the Caesars, Bauer argued that Judaism entered Rome during the era of the Maccabees, and increased in population and influence in Rome since that time. He cited literature from the 1st century to strengthen his case that Jewish influence in Rome was far greater than historians had yet reported. The Imperial throne was influenced by the Jewish religious genius, he said, citing Herod's relation with the Caesar family, as well as the famous relationship between Josephus and the Flavians, Vespasian and Titus, and also one of the poems of Horace.

According to Bruno Bauer, Julius Caesar sought to interpret his own life as an Oriental miracle story, and Augustus Caesar completed that job by commissioning Virgil to write his Aeneid, making Caesar into the Son of Venus and a relative of the Trojans, thereby justifying the Roman conquest of Greece and insinuating Rome into a much older history.

By contrast, said Bauer, Vespasian was far more fortunate, since he had Josephus himself to link his reign with an Oriental miracle. Josephus had prophesied that Vespasian would become Emperor of Rome and thus ruler of the world. This actually happened, and in this way the Roman conquest of Judea was justified and insinuated Rome into an even older history.

According to Albert Schweitzer, Bruno Bauer's criticisms of the New Testament provided the most interesting questions about the historical Jesus that he had seen.

Judging by the second-to-last chapter of his Quest, Schweitzer's own theology was partly based on Bauer's writings. The title of that chapter is Thoroughgoing Skepticism and Eschatology. In that chapter Schweitzer clashes head-on with Wilhelm Wrede, who had recently (in 1905) proposed the theory of a Messianic Secret. Wrede's theory claimed that Jesus' continual commands to his followers to "say nothing to anybody" after each miracle was performed could only be explained as a literary invention of this Gospel writer. (That is, Wrede was the thoroughgoing skeptic, and Schweitzer was the thoroughgoing eschatologist.) Schweitzer began by showing that Wrede had merely copied this idea from Bruno Bauer. Then Schweizter listed another forty brilliant criticisms from Bruno Bauer (pp. 334–335) some of which he disagreed with (such as the so-called Messianic Secret) and some of which he considered indispensable for any modern theology of the Gospel.

This line of criticism has value in emphasizing the importance of studying the influence of environment in the formation of the Christian Scriptures. Bauer was a man of restless creativity, interdisciplinary activity and independent judgment. Many reviewers have charged that Bauer's judgment was ill-balanced, but history has barely begun to review his life. It is not surprising, given the institutional response to his ideas. Due to the controversial nature of his work as a social theorist, theologian and historian, Bauer was banned from public teaching by a Prussian monarch. After many years of similar censorship, Bauer came to resign himself to his place as a free-lance critic, rather than as an official teacher.

Douglas Moggach published The Philosophy and Politics of Bruno Bauer in 2003. This is the most comprehensive overview of Bauer's life and works, in English to date. Bauer's biography has obtained more kindly reviews these days, even by opponents. In his own day, his opponents often respected him, since he was not afraid of taking a line on principle.

One point that is often raised in this regard is his line that was displeasing to his liberal friends on the Jewish question (Die Judenfrage, 1843). Bauers later article "Jews abroad" (Das Judentum in der Fremde) in "Staats- und Gesellschaftslexicon" was even more radical and extensive, mixing arguments of racism, religion and "voelkisch" ideology.

The topic of Bauer's personal religious views or lack thereof is a continuing debate in contemporary scholarship about Bruno Bauer. One modern writer, Paul Trejo (2002), has made the case that Bauer remained a radical theologian who criticized specific types of Christianity, and that Bauer maintained a Hegelian interpretation of Christianity throughout his life. According to Trejo, Bauer's book, Christianity Exposed (1843), was very mild, only setting one sect of Christian against another. Further, opined Trejo, Bauer's Trumpet of the Last Judgment against Hegel the Atheist and Antichrist was a comedy – actually a prank – in which Bauer pretended to be a right-wing cleric who was attacking Hegel. When many right-wing readers publicly praised the book, Bauer revealed himself as the actual author and had a good laugh.

The Trumpet, written by Bauer and published anonymously, was of inspiration to Gianfranco Sanguinetti, for his 1975 pamphlet Veritable Report on the Last Chances to Save Capitalism in Italy, a situationist prank which caused him to leave Italy under the force of political pressure.
 
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