What's the DEAL?

Unit e

A Disturbance in the Force
Hello all, this is my first post here and possibly my last, depending how this plays out.

I have posted a comment regarding the article by Scott Ogrin as to "what we can do?" calling into question his method of altering the wording of quotes from John F. Kennedy to nicely accomodate the thrust of his article. I did my best to be civil and polite, but, apparently I have incurred the wrath of some of your Us vs. Them, Black or White readership.

I don't know, what has SOTT evolved to at this point in time? Is it acceptable for a signs team member to write a very emotional article which manipulates quotes from our murdered, super intellectual, and what if? spiritual saviour John F. Kennedy, to make his words link to the buzzwords of Political Ponerology? Are you playing to those that don't care or think that it doesn't matter that you have changed or added some special words for effect? The ends DO NOT justify the means and you would be better served by openly acknowledging that you have inserted terms and changed words for the purpose of creating an EMOTIONAL reaction in your readers. Granted, I agree that we need to do whatever we can to get some kind of moral response from the dumbed down, comatose general populace. But, this sort of covert, messing with the actual words of history is NOT an effective way to win the trust of people. Do you care? COMMENTS?
 
Unit e said:
Hello all, this is my first post here and possibly my last, depending how this plays out.
If you do not want this to be your last post here, then be specific. What has been changed? Details, please. The devil is in the details, and if you come here without the details, you may well be the devil.

I can accuse you of thousands of things - everybody wull read it. But that would be a manipulation. You can think for yourself as fuzzy things as you wish. But if you want to use this forum as your communication channel, you have to obey the rules. And the rules here are: precision, details, logic, sincerity.

The above does not mean that there are no exceptions - there are exceptions to everything. But once you come here with something new - be precise, so that other people can check you whether you are really up to something, or you just create noise, as it sometimes happens.

The fact is that there are quite a few who come here just for that exact purpose: to create NOISE. So, you should not be surprised that I am very sensitive to any trace of noise and chaos. In fact I am writing scientific papers about chaotic phenomena, so I know something about chaos.

You first post is not very encouraging. So, please: precise details and clear explanations why in your mind these details are relevant.

Please, notice that when I quote someone as saying this or that in my scientific papers, it is not my duty to quote EXACTLY. It is my duty to represent faithfully the essential content. And what is essential and what not is always, to some extent, subjective.

So, please, take it all into account and tell us: WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
 
Just so everyone is aware - there is only one comment in response to Unit e comment under Scott's article. So, the statement, "I have incurred the wrath of some of your Us vs. Them, Black or White readership. " looks not only hysteric and manipulative, but also a lie.
 
All Right! Precision, logic, details, sincerity! Pardon me, but from where I sit I think I have already demonstrated my precision, my logic, and the specific details of what I'm talking about. You may well doubt my sincerity, but frankly, I don't think that is something I will be able to change.

As already stated, I am vexed by the fact that the writer of this article felt that it was acceptable to alter these quotations from JFK to sort of "streamline" them to his point of view. The very first quote merges the actual words of JFK with the writers intent vector... "To know how to battle the pathocracy in our world today, we must first recultivate a long extinct crop, courage". OK, you show me the quote where JFK uses the word "pathocracy". Of course he doesn't, because it will be another twenty years before this term even appears in an obscure iron curtain academic paper. Likewise the the latter referenced " We stand on the edge of a pathocratic abyss." Your man has inserted his terms in John Kennedy's mouth! Gee, is there a problem here? No, We know what the writer's getting at, so let's just go off to bed.

So, having seen that even a mild and logical criticism of one of the "teams" articles provokes such a rabid attack on yours truly, I WILL go off to bed and contemplate the meaning of the fearful and obstinate bipeds that share this apparently doomed globe w/myself. CHEERS!
 
In case you didn't figure it out, the whole point of the article is "what might Kennedy have said" if he had been alive today and knew about pathological deviants in power in scientific terms. If you haven't read our series on JFK, please do so, and I think you will agree that we think rather highly of JFK. But JFK had a weakness in his armor: he didn't really grok pathology and what deviants REALLY would and could do, and so, he died. It was a terrible thing that he lacked this information - terrible for all of us. Whoever hopes to succeed against the monsters that have taken over this world MUST have this knowledge and take precautions against such evil.

In that spirit, Scott assembled a selection of material, modified some of it slightly, and gave us all a "new speech" from JFK to comfort our weary souls.

I, for one, thought it was very cleverly done - Spun from the Grave, indeed!
 
Well no..... I'm sorry I didn't get the this is what JFK might say today if he knew what we knew angle. And I dare say most of your readership may not have made this distinction as there just wasn't anything in the article to indicate this. Oh well, our paranoid hackles have been raised and then lowered. I do like to think that we are on the same team, it does often, seem like a very small team though. CHEERS!
 
Shane said:
Just so everyone is aware - there is only one comment in response to Unit e comment under Scott's article. So, the statement, "I have incurred the wrath of some of your Us vs. Them, Black or White readership. " looks not only hysteric and manipulative, but also a lie.
Could also be a misinterpretation or simply an incorrect thought.

It seems to be a lot about words, how we use them, interpret them and react to them. But then I don't suppose a lot of people get to be called hysterical manipulative liers that often. :) I think it is a really good idea to stick to the facts. When they can be found.
 
For what it is worth, Unit-e, I also have a problem with the article in question, for the reasons you outline. I have a background as an editor, and that kind of manipulation of material is just a big no-no as far as journalistic practices go. You are correct that it was not made clear that Kennedy was not being directly and accurately quoted, and that it leads to confusion on the part of the reader.

I was going to write a post about these issues, then stopped and asked myself the same questions I always do before posting on this forum: How important is what I have to say in the larger scheme of things? Will my post add to the Work of this forum or merely add further confusion and noise? Am I nitpicking out of a sense of my own self-importance?

In the end I "let it go" as not important enough to make a fuss about. After reading through the article a few times, I eventually "figured out" what the author was trying to do, and saw it in the light in which it was intended. Yes, you're right, it should have been written with more clarity, and mis-using quotes could potentially detract from the credibility of the Signs page as a source of information. And if there was a lot of that kind of thing, I'd probably eventually say something to the editors. But one also has to bear in mind that this is a site run by dedicated volunteers, not professionals, and mistakes will happen from time to time.
 
I was going to write a post about these issues, then stopped and asked myself the same questions I always do before posting on this forum: How important is what I have to say in the larger scheme of things? Will my post add to the Work of this forum or merely add further confusion and noise? Am I nitpicking out of a sense of my own self-importance?
Hmmm , I feel like i have to thank you for this post .
It made me thinking and helped me realize how much crappy posts I do release.
 
PepperFritz said:
For what it is worth, Unit-e, I also have a problem with the article in question, for the reasons you outline. I have a background as an editor, and that kind of manipulation of material is just a big no-no as far as journalistic practices go. You are correct that it was not made clear that Kennedy was not being directly and accurately quoted, and that it leads to confusion on the part of the reader.
I have one problem with what you wrote: manipulation of material is nowhere near "a big no-no as far as journalistic practices go". It's SUPPOSED TO BE a big no-no, but anyone who reads SOTT regularly can clearly see that this is, in fact, not the case. Sometimes journalists lie intentionally, sometimes editors censor what the author writes, and sometimes people are just so asleep that important facts tend to "slip by" due to a sort of waking coma that emphasizes things like sales and drama instead of the truth. Manipulation of the facts - conscious or otherwise - is the norm, not the exception.

So, you might say that I was doing the same thing, albeit for a much different purpose: to get people to think, to move them even a little using another's words as well as my own. I tried to point out this very fact by including the bit about the pathocrats getting their lies spread, and everyone eats it up. That was supposed to provoke deeper thought on this very question. Couple that with the use of multiple JFK quotes mixed together with a dash of creativity, and you have a lot of things to think about. At least, I do...

Nevertheless, as I posted in the comments on the article itself, there is a valid point being made: not everyone will understand that what "I" wrote was not an actual JFK speech, but a mixture tweaked for the purposes of making a point. I have to say that after I re-arranged the quotes, it pretty much flowed nicely as it was. But I decided to modify some things here and there, insert a connecting phrase every now and then, and yes, I even (*GASP!*) changed words like "our nation" to "our world" or "or leaders". The reason was pretty simple: I imagined that if JFK was alive today, that's what he would say. But the changes made were miniscule compared to the power of JFK's words themselves. Part of the point was also that not much had to be changed from what the man actually said because it really was THAT good.

Of course, that does bring up the point that not all readers will be as familiar with JFK quotes as I am, and as someone posted recently, some people always bought the lies about JFK just being "rotten". Thus, they won't be familiar with his quotes either, and could easily mistake the "JFK quote" to be an actual speech. This would be bad, because then part of the point of the article - getting people to really think about this kind of thing - is basically lost. And that would be tragic.

So, I added an extra little line to clarify where the "JFK quote" came from.

The other thing I'd like to add is that anyone could have figured out what I did with the article by doing a simple search on "JFK quotes" and then comparing... doing one's homework, as it were. But I also realize that not everyone does this, and that is also another problem.
 
Unit e said:
Pardon me, but from where I sit I think I have already demonstrated my precision, my logic, and the specific details of what I'm talking about.
You see, the place where you sit is not the center of the universe. Neither is the place where I sit the center. We network and we try to use the netwoking for the benefit of the truth. You can't find the truth without comparing data, without exposing yourselve to the criticism, without what it is called a dialogue. And a dialogue does not consist of presenting our views from where we sit - and then turning off our receivers.

Of course you may not like the reply you received. If so, then present your arguments, clearly and precisely, and listen to the arguments of the other side. If you are not benefiting from such a dialogue - the you may indeed turn off your ears - free will.

You see, no one is without errors. But, on the other hand, it would be silly to listen to the first person that comes and tells you that your car needs to fixed because it "sounds terrible". Well, you may have made it to "sound terrible" for some particular good reason, right?

Anyway, THANKS for your post at it gave us the opportunity to improve our services.
 
First let me apologize for the length of this response. I would like to first defend Scott's piece, because it was not a deliberate deception or manipulation meant to trick readers into believing in political ponerology. I interpreted your assembly of JFK's quotes as a collage of sorts, as a written piece of artwork meant to encourage people to think, as you say. I think that it unfortunate that Unit e interpreted it as a propaganda piece and in that vein I would like to open with a quote from JFK in defense of your approach:

"If art is to nourish the roots of our culture, society must set the artist free to follow his vision wherever it takes him. We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda; it is a form of truth... In free society art is not a weapon and it does not belong to the spheres of polemic and ideology. Artists are not engineers of the soul. It may be different elsewhere. But democratic society--in it, the highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may." - Remarks at Amherst College, October 26, 1963

I felt inspired by and learned a great deal from this Scott's article (I followed the link to the Evidence of Revision documentary) and even more from the excellent JFK series authored and referenced by Laura in her comment to the original piece. I think that the piece that Scott put together is pertinant, thoughtful, and captures the essence of JFK's continued relevance to the present global political situation. I immediately recognized that "creative license" was being taken with JFK's words and appreciated that artistic approach to the piece, but it was not until the second reading of the article that I noticed your disclaimer (after reading this thread I assume you inserted it later). Your alterations, their purpose, and their value should be clear to regular readers of Signs of the Times however, I think that Unit e's point is very important. I hope to ad to the honest dialog that ark mentions in his last post.

I think that PepperFritz brings up a very important point:

"I have a background as an editor, and that kind of manipulation of material is just a big no-no as far as journalistic practices go. You are correct that it was not made clear that Kennedy was not being directly and accurately quoted, and that it leads to confusion on the part of the reader."

I would like to speak to Scott's response:

"I have one problem with what you wrote: manipulation of material is nowhere near "a big no-no as far as journalistic practices go". It's SUPPOSED TO BE a big no-no, but anyone who reads SOTT regularly can clearly see that this is, in fact, not the case. Sometimes journalists lie intentionally, sometimes editors censor what the author writes, and sometimes people are just so asleep that important facts tend to "slip by" due to a sort of waking coma that emphasizes things like sales and drama instead of the truth. Manipulation of the facts - conscious or otherwise - is the norm, not the exception.

So, you might say that I was doing the same thing, albeit for a much different purpose: to get people to think, to move them even a little using another's words as well as my own."

We are used to hearing sound bites from our leaders pieced together in all sorts of ways to support the status quo, and we are taught to either accept them without question, or to shake our heads at the obvious lies, misrepresentations and distortions of the original comments. This sort of thing happens constantly on television, in newspapers, magazines and in books. The Evidence of Revision documentary is an excellent and frightening example of this process. We are taught to believe the status quo all through school, from the time we are born, so I think that when we are presented with truths that challenge the status quo we feel surprised and are more likely to question and disbelieve them. My feeling is that this was the response that Unit e experienced, because this was often my initial response when I first started frequenting SOTT. ie: "No way! That CAN'T be the truth, I'm going to have to check on that one" Let me quote Charles Darwin here to try to make my point:

"It is worthy of remark that a belief constantly inculcated during the early years of life, whilst the brain is impressible, appears to acquire almost the nature of an instinct; and the very essence of an instinct is that it is followed independently of reason."
—Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 1871

If one takes the time to explore Signs of the Times and the related QFG sites the point of view and objectives of the writers quickly become clear, which is more than I can say for most "news" sources. Indeed this process of questioning and self verification is strongly encouraged at SOTT, which is something I appreciate and agree with and it is something that I understand to be a central tenet of the fourth way teachings. Ideally every visitor to SOTT would comb the forums, the related QFG sites and cassiopaea materials, the web and any books they can get their hands and they would soon be aware of the knowledge that you now hold dear, but new readers are most likely unaware of many facts that are held as core knowledge on this forum and at SOTT. It takes a great deal of work to break down this conditioning, and I believe that transparency and clarity of purpose on your part must be maintained if you wish to reach out to new readers and readers who may agree with you in essence, even though they have not been challenged and encouraged to question their beliefs as a long time reader has. I agree with you Scott, manipulation of information is the norm. While I think your purpose in writing this article: "to get people to think," is laudable and I think that there was nothing wrong with your approach, your initial response to PepperFritz's comments bothers me because it adopts the stance that the ends justifies the means. Is it is wrong to manipulate facts to deceive, but right to manipulate facts to lead people towards your perception of the truth? While it is true that the mainstream approach is a "fair and balanced" manipulation of virtually all information, Signs of the Times is better than that. Stick to the facts and make sure you are crystal clear when you take creative license so that there is no chance that readers feel deceived. If anything I would think that SoTT must be as vigilant as possible in this regard. As you quoted JFK as saying in your article:

"The prudent heir takes careful inventory of his legacies and gives a faithful accounting to those whom he owes an obligation of trust." - State of the Union Address, January 30, 1961

I take this to mean that I can trust SOTT to present me with news stories and truths that are suppressed by the mainstream media. I know that deception is not your intention, and I think that the single sentence you added to your piece is sufficient to make your intention clear. I don't want to discourage the kind of piece that you wrote Scott, only to encourage Signs of the Times to stick with the core values of transparency, honesty and an unbending commitment to the presentation of truth. Taken as a piece of artwork your article is another form of truth, as valid as any other, but it must be presented as such to avoid an interpretation of deception.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
 
Séamas said:
I know that deception is not your intention, and I think that the single sentence you added to your piece is sufficient to make your intention clear. I don't want to discourage the kind of piece that you wrote Scott, only to encourage Signs of the Times to stick with the core values of transparency, honesty and an unbending commitment to the presentation of truth. Taken as a piece of artwork your article is another form of truth, as valid as any other, but it must be presented as such to avoid an interpretation of deception.
Extremely well said. I agree with that 100%. Thank you.
 
Thanks, Seamas. I think what startled Scott was the fact that we selected the title of the piece to "give the game away: "JFK SPINS From the Grave," something of a triple entendre so to say.
 
ark said:
Well, you may have made it to "sound terrible" for some particular good reason, right?
I suspect it doesn't really apply here but yes one does seem to be allowed to use the ususal third density STS tactics when appropriate. I remember the Cs advising Laura to help you sell yourself the American way when you first went to the U.S. It's kind of one advantage we have over the Cs :) Though I think maybe they spin too in their way.
 
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