When does pride in your race cross the line?

Anyhow. What I'm getting at is (along the lines of the thread theme): pride in race or nation is a good thing, when expressed in the positive sense; it goes too far when it becomes negative. At the level of the family (and a race, being a loose biological group, is basically a very extended family): love of and pride in the family is a very positive thing, but can be taken too far, as for example in the murderous 'family feuds' or interclan wars that have occasionally cropped up.

I don't know if pride is the right word. Simply because it also can be associated with a lot of negative behavior as well. But also positive of course. It's a matter of interpretation.

I would say that a common identity in which we all strife and want what's best for the country/tribe is the glue necessary that keeps us functioning as a whole.

In the end, we can only be truly united in spirit. Race doesn't matter here.

Anyhow, I just want to add.

Globalists such as George Soros understand very well that a multicultural society puts pressure on a country’s national identity. The exact thing they wish to erase. Hence the reason they are importing tenths of millions of people. OSIT.

They also want to use minorities as tools of destabilization to achieve this. But how many minorities really fall for it? I say we are better than the Elite assume we are.
 
I get along very well with members of other groups. Much better than I do with white SJW schizoids who have been sucked into the anti-white CRT cult.

And no doubt you get on much better with such people than you do with those on the opposite end of the spectrum who mirror the SJW schizoids with schizoidal 'white race' talking points. Such people, like paleface, are so clueless that they even use the same terminology as the SJW types, like "white ally". :rolleyes:
 
...The multipolar order China, Russia, and others are...
Picking this part, to say that C CP still needs to be investigated and held to account for their treatment of Fa Gon and the Ughrs.


@bjorn 's pictogram: an ongoing wonder, like some centralized propaganda office is scripting by decree. I need to figure out what I had thought before --- it seems to be decreed that melanin is made from tyrosine near your skin, which makes no sense energetically when you look at bilirubin and how much easier it'd be to fold that into melanin. The easiest refutation for this racial pride debacle I think would be if it was shown that differences in biochemistry produce these appearances.

the wiki:
Melanogenesis
Tyrosine is the non-essential amino acid precursor of melanin. Tyrosine is converted to Dihydroxyinephenylalanine (DOPA) via the enzyme tyrosinase. Then DOPA is polymerized into melanin.

No reference cited. Simply look at the molecules.... There is little chance that the energetics involved are favoring some "polymerized" tyrosine -- fusing multiple single-ringed amino acids into a singular 3x 6-membered + 2x 5-membered ring --- versus bilirubin, which is sitting there looking like it's job might be to fold into melanin with fewer enzymatic steps if needed.

Now that I think more even if it's tyrosine it's still just a biochemical difference. Another decree from central planning office on enforced ignorance.
 
A lot of thoughts come up for me in this topic. The loudest one at this point is that our identities are constructed out of the stories we tell ourselves, which reaches into history and therefore the entire legacy of society itself, in the myriad ways it has existed. Particular stories we tell ourselves can be empowering or disempowering, and set up expectations and customs for how we conduct ourselves and treat others. If you read the Illiad for example, you have a very different outlook on life and your position in the world than reading, say, Mark.

Humans have a diversity of moral tastebuds (a la Jonathan Haidt's work). One of these is "Ingroup Loyalty," which causes a person to emotionally adhere to an ingroup member's case over an outgroup member's case. From the perspective of other moral tastebuds or instincts, it can be seen as irrational, but vice versa also applies). Sometimes I don't know what to make of this from an intelligent design perspective. Ideally all the DNA works together properly to accomplish a function, but due to mutations and all sorts of hybridization and genetic drift people can have conflicting moral values at times, where someone who looks very different from you can make you less empathetic toward them at first blush (purely a clinical description here, not judging it since it's an instantaneous unconscious process), yet they may have babies that have big eyes and all the other things that stimulate our "care" instinct. But the more you speak and get to know one another and share stories you and "the alien" see you have overlapping understandings of things and a shared sense of reality in some respects, so empathy and limbic resonance increases. Maybe you don't share the same metaphysics or sports team loyalties, but those are a type of difference people (in liberal societies at least) are accustomed to dealing with, and are often fully aware of how to make space for both to coexist (the old addage of never discussing religion and politics comes to mind).

Looking into the past, people tended to be very tribalistic, but the divisions more often than not were not between different racial groups, but between different groups of people who spoke different languages. And this is what we would expect, when identity is constructed out of stories mediated by languages. It doesn't matter if Achilles was an Achaean or you an Englishman. If the story is translated you can read it, and develop understanding and see into the mind of Achilles and how he thought about things. . If you could time travel you could commiserate with him about his mistreatment by Agamemnon.

This coming together in mutual understanding is the core nature and purpose of (capital S) Society, period. Collingwood has a lot of insightful things to say on this topic of societies, which is quite relevant because in various ways he was writing in response to the political science climate of the 30's and 40's. He defines a society as a community of free agents who decide to act collectively to fulfill an Aim. We form societies and achieve understanding together to accomplish the task of living together on this planet. The problem with any racially-based consciousness is that it is a development of the loyalty moral tastebud, but of all possible developments and implementations of this tastebud, it is unnecessarily limiting. The idea of "huights" coming together to fulfill a collective interest may be a better idea than some forms of tribal collectivism (such as a gang loyalty), but still worse than others, for a number of reasons. If you intend to ask me for the reasons, I'd need you to explain exactly what this white identity is, what its stories are, and how those stories entitle its believers to treat themselves and the others mentioned in said stories).

The nice thing about language is that you can learn these, and so other people's stories, if there is some wisdom in what is said, become your stories for empowerment. Different organizations engaged in the work have a sense of their own identity and mission, and set high standards of behavior and do some very tight policing around now allowing pathological individuals or people who lack knowledge and awareness to disrupt them. So in theory there is tight policing of a boundary and there are people closer to the margins than others (in Work terms this would be the esoteric, mesoteric, and esoteric circles). Fundamentally though such an identity is a product of our decisions as individuals to engage in the formation of a society with a particular mutual understanding of our role in the universe.

I totally agree with some of the pathological material coming out these days about how people, because of their race, are taught (or learn passively through cultural osmosis) to be discouraged, demoralized, and so on. Those stories more often than not are the product of certain traumatic holding patterns, which we can move beyond. Nobody here feels like anybody should feel guilty or responsible for an action over which they had no control, or in any sense disempowered because of false black-and-white constructs of reality.

To exclude someone from a Society just based on their race, despite being something someone cannot control and despite being perfectly capable of contributing in some capacity to the society, is to shrink the talent pool for accomplishing the mission your society is set out to accomplish. A similar, smaller scale form of this exclusion is nepotism and cronyism in businesses. This behavior is well studied and is shown to negatively impact the performance of a given firm or corporation, for reasons that are quite obvious.

This is not to say that I think people should have no right to freely associate with whomever they want. But people have always been able to do so for less-than-rational reasons.
 
I think it would depend on your definition of pride, and the outward manifestation of those feelings.

The invisible line will be slightly different for everyone aswell I believe.

I'm going to post a video that I recently watched, I think it touches on a few things discussed here aswell as a larger picture. I believe it's helped me in a couple ways and I hope it helps some of you aswell.

 
I think it would depend on your definition of pride, and the outward manifestation of those feelings.

The invisible line will be slightly different for everyone aswell I believe.

I'm going to post a video that I recently watched, I think it touches on a few things discussed here aswell as a larger picture. I believe it's helped me in a couple ways and I hope it helps some of you aswell.


Asha Logos is certainly one of the most subtle thinkers in what might be called the Dissident Right/European Identity movement. His videos are well worth watching; I especially recommend them for anyone who thinks it's all about 'hate' or some other such nonsense. He's fully aware of the spiritual issues facing modernity, and he addresses them with considerable care, thought, and deliberation.

If anyone's interested, his 'subverted history' series presents a deep dive on Indo-European, Graeco-Roman, and Germanic history that uncovers a lot of really interesting information, from the standpoint that (as the name of the series implies) much of our history has been deliberately hidden for purposes of political and spiritual manipulation ... a familiar theme to everyone here I expect.
 
A lot of great points in this post, @whitecoast .

To exclude someone from a Society just based on their race, despite being something someone cannot control and despite being perfectly capable of contributing in some capacity to the society, is to shrink the talent pool for accomplishing the mission your society is set out to accomplish. A similar, smaller scale form of this exclusion is nepotism and cronyism in businesses. This behavior is well studied and is shown to negatively impact the performance of a given firm or corporation, for reasons that are quite obvious.

The devil can really be in the details, however. When it comes to inclusion/exclusion, that presupposes that increasing the available talent pool is the goal. Not every society agrees. Take for example the Japanese. They could certainly do even better, from a purely economic perspective, if they opened their country to immigration and accepted large quantities of talented people. But, in doing so, over time Japan would become less recognizably Japanese. Their goal as a society is for Japan to be a great home for their people - not a great home generically, for any and all peoples.

One positive aspect of a somewhat irrational in-group bias, as e.g. in the Japanese case, is that it prevents society from being organized along purely utilitarian lines. The purpose of the group is not to instrumentalize the members towards economic efficiency, but to support the members of the group, purely because they are members of the group. By virtue of being members of the group, they have a value beyond the exclusively economic.

To go to your example of nepotism: this too can be turned on its head. While it can be frustrating to be in a group in which one does not benefit from nepotism, at the same time, institutions such as family farms or family businesses are essentially nepotistic in nature. I don't see anything morally wrong about passing a business down to one's offspring. Further, such businesses tend to be organized in such a fashion as to prioritize values beyond the purely economic, i.e. they often behave in a more moral fashion in their interactions with the wider society than more "meritocratic" bureaucracies such as large corporations (which as we know, are easy prey for psychopathic subversion).

Of course on the other hand you have "family businesses" that really are purely psychopathic (looking at you, Rothschilds). So as with everything, these questions are not black and white: specific conditions are key to determining right and wrong.
 
lot of thoughts come up for me in this topic. The loudest one at this point is that our identities are constructed out of the stories we tell ourselves, which reaches into history and therefore the entire legacy of society itself, in the myriad ways it has existed. Particular stories we tell ourselves can be empowering or disempowering, and set up expectations and customs for how we conduct ourselves and treat others.

I think most people's identities are ultimately the product of who they are, their 'nature' essentially. The primary and decisive differentiating characteristic in the nature of human beings seems to be the level of "maturity" they have acquired, which manifests as the amount of personal responsibility in the face of the 'great unknown' they are able (rather than willing) to take, and in turn the amount of personal authority they are able to exert and therefore their ability to think for themselves.

The extent to which a person is able to take responsibility, in this sense, is directly correlated to the extent of their need for dependence on external authorities. The extent to which a person is dependent on external authorities (of the temporal kind) will determine how subject they are to the dictates of those authorities.

In the current climate, it is the dictates of those authorities that ultimately define an individual's 'identity' (as that term is used today) because 'identity' as it is used today is entirely drawn from the dominant discourse provided by authorities, or is a product of the cultural climate that is primarily produced by the actions of authorities.

There are other aspects to this, but I think that is a prominent one.
 
The devil can really be in the details, however. When it comes to inclusion/exclusion, that presupposes that increasing the available talent pool is the goal. Not every society agrees. Take for example the Japanese. They could certainly do even better, from a purely economic perspective, if they opened their country to immigration and accepted large quantities of talented people. But, in doing so, over time Japan would become less recognizably Japanese. Their goal as a society is for Japan to be a great home for their people - not a great home generically, for any and all peoples.

I think most people's identities are ultimately the product of who they are, their 'nature' essentially. The primary and decisive differentiating characteristic in the nature of human beings seems to be the level of "maturity" they have acquired, which manifests as the amount of personal responsibility in the face of the 'great unknown' they are able (rather than willing) to take, and in turn the amount of personal authority they are able to exert and therefore their ability to think for themselves.

Two important aspects IMO that show how complex (and somewhat paradoxical) the question about identity really is, and that there may be no "collective" answers - each individual case is somewhat different.

Just to speak of myself here (and perhaps others can relate), I really do lament the cultural destruction of the West in general, and of my own local culture in particular. I really am proud of my (German) "classical culture" - although "pride" is perhaps the wrong word, it's more a feeling of connectedness, of ancestry, of a certain tradition that I carry within me. Yes, this is in some sense also an ethnic thing, but I wouldn't call it "white", this just seems way too unspecific and is connotated with a specific US (or South African) black/white dichotomy that doesn't play any big role in Germany or German history.

On the other hand, I don't care about local cultures and ethnicities, because the real question is about a human being's spiritual development, or in more down-to-earth terms his or her "maturity" or "ability to think for himself" or "ability to take responsibility", as Joe put it. That's so much more important than anything else!

This somewhat paradoxical situation is also reflected by the fact that I would be considered as "right" or "conservative" by most people probably, ready to defend the nation, local cultures and values, tradition etc. And yet here I am, living abroad, interacting with people from all over the world - I'm clearly part of the "new multicultural world", and you know what, I like it, because it suits me. And if I'm honest, I could never stay in one village somewhere my entire life, part of a family that has stayed there forever and part of a long tradition. Nah. This is not my world. Although I truly understand and value such things, I'm way too curious, fickle, and interested in strange things for that. I need people from all over the world to talk about things.

Anyway, these are some personal observations that maybe can help understand why we can't "define" such identity issues and why there is always so much disagreement around such things. Some things maybe just have to stay a bit paradoxical on an intellectual level and only make sense when looked at from a more spiritual perspective - that we may live in two worlds simultaneously perhaps, in the "temporal" world where culture and heritage is important and our connection to it as well, and the "spiritual world" where only higher values count that transcend times, cultures, ethnicity etc., although there seems to be a somewhat muddy connection between the two (perhaps via ancestry, past lives?), and this also doesn't mean that our "temporal" existence is not important, it clearly is.

That's the best I can come up with anyway, for what it's worth!
 
Why would anyone in their right mind want to celebrate the color of their skin? How do you even do that? I suppose some white people show off a bit when they come back from holiday with a nice tan. Then again, maybe that's a sign of 'white guilt' or a 'self-hating white person', ya know, showing off that your skin is less white than it was before. Paleface would probably agree. Then again, I don't think they get much sun in his part of the world, so he probably doesn't know what I'm talking about.
I think you missed the point I was making. The social and cultural engineers, the ones that make sure no strong masculine role models are on tv, the ones that ensure the confused and belittled have a voice, but the sensible and intelligent don't.. those people, would love to have us doing exactly what you're doing, Joe.

Don't engage. You don't want to even play the game. Culture is not your friend, and hatred is hatred, no matter which side of the fence it comes from.
 
Two important aspects IMO that show how complex (and somewhat paradoxical) the question about identity really is, and that there may be no "collective" answers - each individual case is somewhat different.

Just to speak of myself here (and perhaps others can relate), I really do lament the cultural destruction of the West in general, and of my own local culture in particular. I really am proud of my (German) "classical culture" - although "pride" is perhaps the wrong word, it's more a feeling of connectedness, of ancestry, of a certain tradition that I carry within me. Yes, this is in some sense also an ethnic thing, but I wouldn't call it "white", this just seems way too unspecific and is connotated with a specific US (or South African) black/white dichotomy that doesn't play any big role in Germany or German history.

On the other hand, I don't care about local cultures and ethnicities, because the real question is about a human being's spiritual development, or in more down-to-earth terms his or her "maturity" or "ability to think for himself" or "ability to take responsibility", as Joe put it. That's so much more important than anything else!

This somewhat paradoxical situation is also reflected by the fact that I would be considered as "right" or "conservative" by most people probably, ready to defend the nation, local cultures and values, tradition etc. And yet here I am, living abroad, interacting with people from all over the world - I'm clearly part of the "new multicultural world", and you know what, I like it, because it suits me. And if I'm honest, I could never stay in one village somewhere my entire life, part of a family that has stayed there forever and part of a long tradition. Nah. This is not my world. Although I truly understand and value such things, I'm way too curious, fickle, and interested in strange things for that. I need people from all over the world to talk about things.

Anyway, these are some personal observations that maybe can help understand why we can't "define" such identity issues and why there is always so much disagreement around such things. Some things maybe just have to stay a bit paradoxical on an intellectual level and only make sense when looked at from a more spiritual perspective - that we may live in two worlds simultaneously perhaps, in the "temporal" world where culture and heritage is important and our connection to it as well, and the "spiritual world" where only higher values count that transcend times, cultures, ethnicity etc., although there seems to be a somewhat muddy connection between the two (perhaps via ancestry, past lives?), and this also doesn't mean that our "temporal" existence is not important, it clearly is.

That's the best I can come up with anyway, for what it's worth!
Well said.
 
I think you missed the point I was making. The social and cultural engineers, the ones that make sure no strong masculine role models are on tv, the ones that ensure the confused and belittled have a voice, but the sensible and intelligent don't.. those people, would love to have us doing exactly what you're doing, Joe.

Don't engage. You don't want to even play the game. Culture is not your friend, and hatred is hatred, no matter which side of the fence it comes from.

And what do you think Joe is doing? I might be missing something here but from my pespective Joe is ridiculing this whole narrative not playing it. And he's right to ridicule it, since it is ridiculous(especially paleface's comments, which belong in the "tickle me" section or on a different forum).
 

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