Why do people have the illusion that things are getting better?

[melatonin]

Hi Dorothy,

(Replied in a friendly manner ).

There just seems something wrong with people sat in their warm houses wearing designer jeans, and saying the system is corrupt. (not talking about you here Dorothy, just generalising and making assumptions of the average person in england - where i live) If anyone has a right to complain its the people in the 3rd world, not us who live in relative comfort.

What if the system changed so people in 3rd world countries got paid more and we paid more for household goods? Couldnt imagine many 'truth-seekers' jumping for joy there. ( i know this isnt the main problem, just making a point. That is one change of many that could be made )
I know the main curroption is right at the top, the secret governments, experiments, banking, alien brainwashing etc etc.
Technology thats that surpassed what people could even fantasise about.

Makes me laugh when folk talk about chemtrails, yet on the other hand say shadow governments have incredible technology. If the 'powers at be' have any mind control device/brainwashing device its unlikely to be throwing chemicals out of the back of a boeing 747, not in the year 2011.
On one hand most people are aware that 'these groups/people' are incredibly powerful, then there seems to be a real belief that they can be toppled (its a contradiction) - like you said yourself, its all part of the brainwashing.

I dont think theres a massive change happening though. Yes, alot of people are aware of how the media is trying to influence us into being materialistic etc etc. But i see newer generations that are more narcasstic and materialistic (less 'spiritual' - whatever that means) than ever. Its getting worse, not better.
Image/status is more important than ever. Even within 'aware' communities theres a certain level of acceptance based on what a person has read etc etc. Its still based on ego & knowledge, just covered over with a different mask.
Its ok though. Doesnt mean life is -shite- or un-enjoyable, its about playing the game of life that is put in front of us. I just dont see this major shift to STO ever happening in my lifetime.

Edited to add this - I also have a feeling that alot of what i read is wrong and un-true. Best way for me to explain it is this - Like someone cheating in a marriage that gets found out. Rather than telling the whole truth, they give a half or quarter truth as a way of keeping some control. I havent read a book where i havent felt this way about the information in it, as yet. (altho wave 1 is excellent) It seems like 'they' use this very cleverly, and imo the truth will never be found out. I feel like the truth will always be out of the average persons reach, so why attempt to seek it?

 

[luke wilson]

Nice thread. Thanks for starting it melatonin.

I think I understand where your frustration is stemming from melatonin. You are angry/annoyed at the new age movement because they are promising something, real change, and according to you, arent delivering it. I hope that catches the main element of your argument? You also state that some of it is abit hypocritical aswell, interms of the contradictions inherent within the movement itself.

Most people are focusing on survival, whether they think they are or not.

I agree, everyone is focused on survival. It would be a lie to state otherwise. Immortality is just a fancy word for survival, forever... The focus on survival and the fear it breeds is why people choose to be asleep or atleast one of the reasons. People choose to maximise the fun they can get out of this life and since illusion of the system promises 'fun' people fall for it.

Would you rather spend your weekend, getting with hot girls, having fun with your friends, watching sports game, travelling the world or sitting down and trying to figure out what is wrong with the world and yourself? I know what most people would choose if they had a choice...

A classic example is what I see as part of the truth movement. For the most part it's a bunch of people, who spent one part of there lives, living dangerously, doing all the things they probably wouldnt do now and then at some other point decided that it was time to start seeking redemption - it is always a good idea to seek abit of redemption for the sins you've commited before you die, no one wants to go to hell. OSIT. I believe they call the first half gaining life experience... Now they march on and preach like they know everything, fueled by the inherent narcissism that lies underneath that makes them think they are right, always. They do this from the comfort of there houses or the rather daring ones venture onto the streets to demonstrate/protest, yet, nothing really changes. This is slightly emotional on my part but I dont like this picture.

They say they think things are getting better, because things are getting better from there point of view. They are pursuing there dreams, this seeking of redemption or salvation, for the most part, they are well off economically speaking, they probably had good education and they have a huge audience, a mass of followers who have been disillusioned by the establishment. This new guys are the new priests of the world of tommorrow. Why wouldnt they think things are getting better?? The sooner this world collapses, the sooner they get to go to the top - or atleast that is what I think they think. I hope the comets do a devastatingly good job so that there is no top to go to, I cant bear swapping one control system for another... Sorry for the last comment. Spoken from a truly STS point of view.

I also have a feeling that alot of what i read is wrong and un-true. Best way for me to explain it is this - Like someone cheating in a marriage that gets found out. Rather than telling the whole truth, they give a half or quarter truth as a way of keeping some control. I havent read a book where i havent felt this way about the information in it, as yet. (altho wave 1 is excellent) It seems like 'they' use this very cleverly, and imo the truth will never be found out. I feel like the truth will always be out of the average persons reach, so why attempt to seek it?

I think the reason you feel this is because, nobody knows the way out. Everybody here is on the same boat. The ones who knew the way out are long gone. The rest are left guessing. They guess all day long and all night long, doing there best. They use whatever tool at there disposal to try and get themselves a ticket out of this soon to be obliterated marble. Sad really, it's like a scramble, a stampede to the exit doors in this final hours, only no one has any definate ideas about where it is...

On a more optimistic note,

On one hand most people are aware that 'these groups/people' are incredibly powerful, then there seems to be a real belief that they can be toppled (its a contradiction) - like you said yourself, its all part of the brainwashing.

I think the groups will be toppled. Just not by us. I think they will topple themselves over. It's inevitable and the Cs said so. Allow me to explain myself, the powerful STS groups are still a function of universal evolution and maybe there function is to collapse to allow creation to take place. They have a tendency of buiding non-sustainable systems that eventually do collapse. OSIT. What matters on our part, is where we are and what we can see as the Cs say. So work on yourself as honestly as you can, then hope for the best. What else can you do?

If you burn, you burn. If you live, you live. I dont really see how anyone can change what is going to happen even if you knew about it. I am sorry if my post came across abit pessimistic, I dont know the way out - lately I have been thinking, out is not where you want to be anyways, stay here, this is where all the action is going down. This is like the place to be right now. Didnt the Cs say the wave was going to bring alot of visitors, they must be coming for something...

 

[anart]

melatonin,

You sound jaded, cynical, distrustful and generally fed up with everyone and everything.

That's actually a 'starting place' with an enormous amount of potential - you're fed up, so you can begin something that did not previously exist. The only thing we truly have 'control' over in this life is ourselves - and most of us don't have that. If we do not begin with ourselves, we will get nowhere and change nothing. So, if you take all that energy you're using on being disgusted with people and the world and focus it inward - on being disgusted with all those parts of you that keep you in whatever personal prison you now inhabit (and you do, else you'd not be here) - then that change will affect all other things. I think we as human beings consistently forget a very simple and obvious truth - as part of this reality, every change we make within ourselves that brings us closer to 'order', Creativity and Truth affects our environment and all others as well. It would have to, since we are 'wave reading units' and part of the system - as part of the system, we affect the system. It's evidenced daily in infinite ways, negative as well, as in the manifestations you've brought up in this thread - so - what is there to lose in beginning today to learn about and change that within you that holds YOU back?

That's where the Work comes in - because the only way to remove the dross from the self is to know the self and dismantle the false personality that has built up over a lifetime of sleep and damage. Then, one has a chance to actually affect anything at all. Until then, one is just 'wearing designer jeans' complaining about injustice while they dream their lives away. Anyway, just some thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

 

[melatonin]

Hi Luke Wilson,

You said "Would you rather spend your weekend, getting with hot girls, having fun with your friends, watching sports game, travelling the world or sitting down and trying to figure out what is wrong with the world and yourself? I know what most people would choose if they had a choice... " - I need a night round town, and some strong drinks, lol.

"I think the reason you feel this is because, nobody knows the way out. Everybody here is on the same boat. The ones who knew the way out are long gone. The rest are left guessing. They guess all day long and all night long, doing there best. They use whatever tool at there disposal to try and get themselves a ticket out of this soon to be obliterated marble. Sad really, it's like a scramble, a stampede to the exit doors in this final hours, only no one has any definate ideas about where it is... " - I see it the same way, sometimes i think the only reason i spawned on this planet was to find a way out.


Hi anart,

You said "You sound jaded, cynical, distrustful and generally fed up with everyone and everything. " - Yes, that about sums me up. Problem with me is, im very honest with myself. When i look inwards and see just how much of a mess i am, i turn away because i know theres so much work to do. I then look outwards and get angry at situations i have no control over in the world aswell.

 

[mcb]

...Problem with me is, im very honest with myself. When i look inwards and see just how much of a mess i am, i turn away because i know theres so much work to do...

That is "honest with myself?"

 

[melatonin]

...Problem with me is, im very honest with myself. When i look inwards and see just how much of a mess i am, i turn away because i know theres so much work to do...

That is "honest with myself?"

Thanks for leaving it totally un-clear what you mean.
Sorry, i now know what you mean. I read your reply in wrong tone of voice!

Maybe i am too cynical, and im not positive enough (in my outlook) to be on a forum like this. Ive done ALOT of self work, believe me. Sorry if this sounds arrogant, but i had my mind dis-mantled from a very early age and probably know more about myself than most - which is helpful when knowing how to treat others. I dont need to read a book to know how to treat a fellow human being, or to see how messed up the world is.
The fact i said i needed to do more self-work is just testament to how much i push myself, not in comparison with other people.

 

[mcb]

...Problem with me is, im very honest with myself. When i look inwards and see just how much of a mess i am, i turn away because i know theres so much work to do...

That is "honest with myself?"

Thanks for leaving it totally un-clear what you mean.
Sorry, i now know what you mean. I read your reply in wrong tone of voice! ...

Your first statement, "I'm very honest with myself" didn't seem to mesh with part of your second statement, "how much of a mess i am...there's so much work to do..." What is the difference between "mess" and "opportunity?" Is there any difference, other than how you look at it? Or between "there's so much work to do" and "there is work to do."

Maybe I am wrong (about you--it's certainly true for me), but reading between the lines it seems like you are saying that with all the work you have done already you are disappointed with the amount of progress you have made. My advice to me is to call it learning experiences and move on. Besides, learning experiences are progress. If you discount all your progress, you won't see any.

 

[Buddy]

Hi melatonin. Personally, I think anyone who is on any kind of path to grow their knowledge and being will have to go through a cynic stage - maybe more than once. I know I did. In my late teens and again since I've been part of this forum. I think it is natural and can be beneficial as long as you try to keep one eye on a longer-term vision.

At the very least, a cynical attitude covers a deeper knowledge that something is not right and that things can be better. That's more helpful than 100% sleep.

There is a parallel in the evolutionary context of human civilization that also shows this as a stage of growth for mankind's knowledge. It seems like it served as a placeholder that kept deeper aspirations alive until the Jesus figure came along and demonstrated how to handle the Pharisees. The Pharisees, you might remember, were the keepers of 'the law' and were working overtime to bait and trap Jesus so that he might be removed before he exposed the existing pathology. It can also serve as a catalyst for taking up esoteric Christianity as protest against social norms. You can read more here

Anyways, theres one thing ive noticed in 'awakened' communities (not this one though), its the thought that when the system eventually crashes (if it does) things will get better.
Is this not just another way 'they' manipulate us.

If the system crashes WE will be the ones who find life harder. Do people really think that everyone will start working together? People will get MORE narcasstic, and even MORE competitive.
It wont bring us together.

You are looking at it from the perspective of the existing context of society. If the "system crashes", 'Everything' will change. There may be some who "will get MORE narcasstic, and even MORE competitive", some who may succumb to self-destruction, some who may cry out for the mountains to fall on them, and etc.

BUT, there are many, many people whose energy, creativity, knowledge and ability are currently being restrained by our suppressive society. When the constraints come off, there will be tons of opportunity for naturally able and helpful people to go into action and those who want to live and also help others will naturally follow, OSIT.

Whatever you know that might be helpful to others at this point, will make you an incredibly useful, valuable person. :)

 

[luke wilson]

Hey melatonin,

I have noticed you have this thing about how you come across and how you interact with people. Like to do with the nature of the interaction. Like for example your statements about reading or taking things in the wrong way.

It might be that the world has been abit harsh to you or rather you havent really mixed with it in a healthy way and this is the result. You have this deep seated anger aimed at the world out there and also mostly at yourself. This might be the root of the cynicism. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, am just saying you shouldnt take it to be real. Whatever it is that brought this onto you, isnt who you are, it's a result of your experiences and eventhough they say experiences shape us, they dont really define us. There is something underneath all that stuff and I think you should work to meet it, to meet the true you.

It is ok to be a cynic, just dont let it define you, because at the end of the day, eventhough it might seem like a safe position to take, it could turn out to be a false position. As anart said, I think if you really started working on yourself, honestly, as best as you can, I think you would be surprised by the results. Start working with the root cause of your cynicism, find out where it came from, because you sure werent born a cynic, you were made into one with your experiences...

I dont really know anything, I wish I did, I should be a cynic aswell but am rather blindly optimistic which is the root of my undoing. My point is, you should take baby steps. Dont be result oriented because then when you dont achieve the goal, it just re-enforces your cynicism. I think right now, that cynicism is having a negative effect on you, you need to get a handle on it and not take it to seriously... Maybe you should get some carlos castenado books and read them. I found the part where Don Juan spoke about self-importance to be very helpful. This might be part of your problem right now... It could just be that you are feeling to self-important.

This work is difficult and I dont really know what its fruits are, i.e. how we measure our progress along it. Maybe someone else can help you with that...

You shouldnt forget that this world has unfathomable mysteries. Just because you havent noticed one doesnt mean they arent there. An example of a mystery you could start working to unravel is yourself. Would I be lying if I said you are an enigma unto yourself? Everyone is! When you say you are honest with yourself, I think you mean you are honest with where you are right now but you are maybe not as honest as you'd like interms of the lies you tell yourself, lies re-enforced by experiences that make them seem to be true...

Anyways, this is just my take on this whole thing.

 

[Dorothy Minder]

Echo Anart and Megan. Knowing that you are a mess is the very reason to begin serious self-work.

I would also like to add this: Most people think they know themselves very well. It is a fundamental human blind-spot. You can imagine just about anyone saying, "I live with my thoughts, emotions and actions everyday. I know my strengths and weaknesses, my consistency and inconsistency. Of course, I know myself. Who could know me better?" But with extremely rare exceptions, anyone who says that is wrong. We do not know ourselves. Our inconsistency, our suffering, and our inability to understand the full context of our words and actions prove that fact.

Some of us may know ourselves better than others, enough to recognize that we are inconsistent, that our fears and desires cause us to suffer needlessly, that we accept our own rationalizations rather than change -- that, as you said, we are a mess.

But that is only a relatively greater self-knowledge, when compared against those who are completely oblivious. When we really begin to know, we change. An addict has a moment of clarity and gives up drugs. A criminal has a moment of clarity and changes careers. We are addicts and criminals in far more ways than we know, and self-work largely means recognizing those addictive and criminal tendencies, bringing them to the light of consciousness, and dropping them. It gets harder to spot them as they become more subtle, but at the same time, it becomes easier to drop them with practice.

[quote author=luke wilson]I think the reason you feel this is because, nobody knows the way out. Everybody here is on the same boat. The ones who knew the way out are long gone. The rest are left guessing. They guess all day long and all night long, doing there best. They use whatever tool at there disposal to try and get themselves a ticket out of this soon to be obliterated marble. Sad really, it's like a scramble, a stampede to the exit doors in this final hours, only no one has any definate ideas about where it is...[/quote]

[quote author=melatonin]I see it the same way, sometimes i think the only reason i spawned on this planet was to find a way out.[/quote]

Exactly! Each of us has to find his own way out. We seekers can share knowledge and tips with each other, but we can only do the really difficult work for ourselves.

[quote author=luke wilson]What matters on our part, is where we are and what we can see as the Cs say. So work on yourself as honestly as you can, then hope for the best. What else can you do?[/quote]

Now, to take up another topic in your response.

[quote author=melatonin]I also have a feeling that alot of what i read is wrong and un-true. Best way for me to explain it is this - Like someone cheating in a marriage that gets found out. Rather than telling the whole truth, they give a half or quarter truth as a way of keeping some control. I havent read a book where i havent felt this way about the information in it, as yet. (altho wave 1 is excellent) It seems like 'they' use this very cleverly, and imo the truth will never be found out. I feel like the truth will always be out of the average persons reach, so why attempt to seek it?
[/quote]

Have you read Charles Fort's, Book of the Damned? Early on, he describes how Truth only really belongs to the Absolute. He says that Truth, Beauty, and Completeness are qualities of the Absolute alone, and that limited interpretations of reality can only claim those virtues by "damning" the counter-evidence. For example, established science often refuses to investigate anomalous phenomena that don't fit the paradigm.

Gurdjieff, in ISOTM, says that people can't handle naked Truth. He says that we need it wrapped in lies. I take this to mean that we need a context. We need people, events, and concepts arranged in narratives or formal structures. But, ultimately, compared against the Absolute, all context is empty. We have a very vivid sense of self -- it is the dominant assumption in our world, that "I am" -- but our selves are ever changing in relation to "outside" forces. We perceive events happening, events we consider important, but everything is changing all the time. To call one event important and another insignificant is, at the ultimate level, an arbitrary distinction. Narratives and formal structures are just useful ways to connect the dots, given certain assumptions.

Melatonin, I think perhaps this is the incompleteness you intuit in everything you read. If that's the case, then I'm with you.

To my thinking, this intuition that there is more beyond the concepts and worldviews we read, hear from others, or create ourselves is actually a sacred gift of the Absolute. It is a test that drives us forward to recognize ultimate Completeness.

Now, I'll try to bring the two topics together:

Currently, as humans, we operate within a certain context. Our main assumption is that we are distinct selves. I think "finding a way out" means a ruthless examination of that assumption. When we deeply understand that our selves are incomplete, our intelligence can lead us forward in two ways. Either (STS) we attempt to make everything fit our concept of how the universe should be, or (STO) we seek harmony with the universe.

Until we choose a path, our lives are a mess.

Dorothy

 

[Dorothy Minder]

Bud and Luke posted while I was composing. Since I can't edit, I'll just drop a quick line here to note that I agree. Cynicism is a good place to start and a lousy place to end.

Part of what makes it so difficult to move past cynicism, however, is that seems oh so intelligent, and as miserable as cynics generally are, it feels more stable to live in critical rejection of everything than to live for something and risk failure. And so it remains, gutless, heartless, and short-sighted.

Please excuse the harsh tone there. I write as a reminder to myself as much as to warn others.

 

[anart]

And so it remains, gutless, heartless, and short-sighted.

I disagree. A cynic could not exist without heart. If one feels nothing, there is no reason to be cynical.

Basically, it comes down to this, Melatonin:

This is your life. It will end and long before you think it will, as it does for all of us. In this life of yours you have opportunities that you can either utilize or ignore. Where you are right now is a result of every single choice you've made thus far in your life - your future is your own and depends on your choices. If you look at yourself and see too much work to do, then there is only one thing capable of changing that. There is never 'too much work to do' - there is only learning; fast, slow, painful or joyous. One step at a time and if it takes 5 lifetimes to become who you are, let this be the first.

 

[Dorothy Minder]

Very good point. I withdraw "heartless."

I guess what I was trying to indicate is that cynics are afraid to identify beyond themselves.

 

[Renaissance]

I guess what I was trying to indicate is that cynics are afraid to identify beyond themselves.

I think the point was that cynics do see beyond themselves, which often creates the cynicism. I'm not sure if you might be thinking of a pathological type of critic. That type of person would indeed be all those things you mention and more. However, the type of cynicism being discussed here is something different and even helpful in beginning to see the world less subjectively.

 

[luke wilson]

I think cynicism is good at a healthy dosage, but, beyond that I think it could become something destructive to the individual.

It's good in that, it makes it harder to fall into lies. It makes one investigate further. It makes one question things. However it is bad if it becomes a place of safety for one. A place to protect the false personality because as Dorothy said, it seems like an intelligent position to take. I know this first hand because I know somebody who is absolutely cynical about everything and it is good but it is bad because once he jumped straight into his cynicism automatically without thinking about the current situation i.e. by making assumptions - then I realised he doesnt actually think, it is an absolutely reactionary thing. Then I knew that it is a position he takes to protect himself and can actually hinder seeing the world more objectively if not handled with care. In this example he is cynical mainly about anything alternative anti-establishment and as a result the people associated with this. He takes the darwinian position that we are just a bunch of chemical reactions and there is no essence of spirit or anything like that. That we live and we die and that is it. No need to waste your time doing anything else like chasing after spiritual development because that is just a bunch of hooey and darwin proved it to be so. If you dont think so, then you are letting your emotions control you, i.e. letting those chemical reactions taking place in your head muddle your thinking - I understand you are a human being and you dont want to die, but you have to accept the cold hard truth that you will and that will be that. The only thing of worth is intellect and how sharp it is. This is just but an example of the cynicism that has completely run amok and out of control that i've had the mispleasure of having thrown at me... Talk about the general law in action! Imagine taking that as a position, all we have is now because there is no future lives etc, and there is no spirit, so how do you spend your time? Offcourse, that is easy, after pursuit of pleasures and desires because that is clearly the only thing of worth!! I mean, the only way to describe such a person, is cold(ruled by the intellect and the desires of the body) and they lack the warmth that I characterise with a human being. Just my opinion.

The cynics I have met have one defining feature about them. They are cynical about absolutely nearly everything out there that has the potential to rattle there safely constructed reality but they never turn that cynicism towards themselves to actually question the validity of what comes out of there mouth or any other aspect of who they are and what they think. Talk about taking a false safe position. Safe for as long as the world remains as it is. Dangerous when things change.