Why do people have the illusion that things are getting better?

[Dorothy Minder]

Shane, I think you misinterpret me. Or perhaps I wasn't clear. I'll try to clarify, and then let's check again. Please bear in mind that early in the same post that Anart quoted, I said, "Cynicism is a good place to start and a lousy place to end," just as you indicated.

Anart rightly disagreed with my use of the adjective "heartless" to describe cynics. That was careless on my part. Then I said that I was "trying to indicate that cynics are afraid to identify beyond themselves."

You seem to have interpreted that as though I said cynics "do not see beyond themselves." I agree with you that they do indeed see beyond themselves and that is often the reason for their cynicism. And again, I agree that they also, to an important extent, feel for others. As anart said, "If one feels nothing, there is no reason to be cynical." I concur, and that's why I immediately withdrew my "heartless" characterization as hasty and inaccurate.

In my own experience (I too was a cynic), there is a big difference between "seeing" beyond oneself and "identifying" beyond oneself. I tried to illustrate that distinction when I said

[quote author=Dorothy Minder]Part of what makes it so difficult to move past cynicism, however, is that seems oh so intelligent, and as miserable as cynics generally are, it feels more stable to live in critical rejection of everything than to live for something and risk failure.[/quote]

Maybe it would help to put it this way: Cynicism is an intellectual posture that is highly critical of others' motives. Many adopt this position because they see very clearly that people apparently believe and promote their own rationalizations. Many cynics are unhappy to hold this position, but because it gives them the first right of rejection, it offers a kind of stability and superiority that can be attractive, as Luke just described.

Two more important points about cynicism:

First, it is reflexive. It generally does not seek to discern, rather it seeks to condemn. Example: "He's probably only being nice to her so he can get in her pants." Well, he might be, and he might not.

Second, it is scornful. There is a value judgment. And this means that the cynic wishes that things were otherwise. And which way would that be? His way.

Now, if a cynic begins to identify beyond himself, he won't dismiss virtue so casually. He will examine it to see if it is counterfeit. He won't waste his energy wishing for another world. He use that energy to better this one, starting with himself.

Is that more clear? I seem to get myself in trouble with short posts, but at the same time, I don't want to take over the thread.

Dorothy

 

[melatonin]

I dont interact very well, thats true. I can be argumentative. I think sometimes i have a fair point of view, but i always question why i bring something up - am i doing it to seek confrontation?
I dont want to get banned from this forum, as i believe its excellent.
I think i need a break from posting for a while, until im integrated enough and self-aware enough to know why im saying what i am.

 

[luke wilson]

I dont interact very well, thats true. I can be argumentative. I think sometimes i have a fair point of view, but i always question why i bring something up - am i doing it to seek confrontation?
I dont want to get banned from this forum, as i believe its excellent.
I think i need a break from posting for a while, until im integrated enough and self-aware enough to know why im saying what i am.

Hey melatonin, I might be wrong and someone else should correct me if I am but I think this post is exactly why a network is useful.

I think your response here is a program. Basically you are running a program here. You cant see yourself and that is why you run it. Not the part about questioning yourself though, I think it's good to question oneself. Handle it with care though, sometimes questioning ourselves can paralyse us... OSIT.

The reaction after that self-doubt that you've experienced after questioning yourself. I think a program emerged there and has subsequently made you go into full retreat, back into the land of safety. Instead, confront it and de-bug it. Excellent opportunity to do some self-work.

For one am greatful you started this thread. I dont think you've said or done anything that warrants getting banned(I might be wrong?). I actually think you are very externally considerate from the few posts i've read from you. I just think like the rest of us, you have alot of stuff to work through and that is why the forum is here after all. To help us work through all the junk we have accumulated in our lifetime.

 

[luke wilson]

Sorry for the double post.

I was thinking about what you said here:

I think i need a break from posting for a while, until im integrated enough and self-aware enough to know why im saying what i am.

I think that part that has made you form some of this posts is your Real I, IMHO. I think you post from an honest position. For example this thread, you had genuine questions or thoughts you wanted to air. The thing that you didnt count on was the reaction but the thing that is most valuable is the reaction you got. Why? Because the reaction made you look inside. It made you look into yourself and sometimes when you do that you dont like what you see so you turn away. YOU SHOULDNT! Why? Because you miss a valuable opportunity to do some self-work.

I got this from the thread: 'As I began to Love Myself'

We no longer need to fear arguments, confrontations or any kind of problems with ourselves or others. Even stars collide, and out of their crashing new worlds are born.

Today I know THAT IS “LIFE“!

See, by confronting what you see, those ugly parts, you gain something infinitely more valuable. You gain Life!

Just be brave and face up to the ugly critters that confront you along the way. Those ugly critters are the junk you've picked up along the way!

They hide behind your pain!! Not just any pain, the kind of pain that makes you want to turn away from seeing yourself!! It is a special kind of pain, develop a taste for that pain and you'll be able to identify those critters more easily with practise! IMHO. Once spotted it takes bravery and clarity to attack! Sometimes we dont have what it takes and that is why we need a network and that is why I think people like mouravieff say we should develop the personality, stop the centres stealing energy from each other. Because when this happens, we gain clarity and dont get lost in our own thinking or analysis of the critter at hand! Those things are masters at disguising themselves... They can con even the best out there.

Just my take.

 

[melatonin]

Hi Luke Wilson,

Yeah i think you have found the reason for my behaviour. And i think that the root of it all is - rejection.
I feel like i do speak my mind with some clarity (other times maybe not). It probably doesnt matter either way because if i dont get a certain amount of agreement in the responses, i then look inwards to ask why.
"Why havent they agreed?"
"What is wrong with me for someone to disagree with me?".
Complicated stuff. Self-acceptance/belief is the root cause probably.

Edited to add:- And to make it even more complicated sometimes i have no right to have any self-belief, because i dont always come from a place thats totally rational. (in my honest opinion).

 

[luke wilson]

Hi Luke Wilson,

Yeah i think you have found the reason for my behaviour. And i think that the root of it all is - rejection.
I feel like i do speak my mind with some clarity (other times maybe not). It probably doesnt matter either way because if i dont get a certain amount of agreement in the responses, i then look inwards to ask why.
"Why havent they agreed?"
"What is wrong with me for someone to disagree with me?".
Complicated stuff. Self-acceptance/belief is the root cause probably.

Edited to add:- And to make it even more complicated sometimes i have no right to have any self-belief, because i dont always come from a place thats totally rational. (in my honest opinion).

I think I can kind of see what you are saying melatonin. This is a hard topic and dangerously personal and individualised so what I say might not be relevant to you per se. I think we suffer from a disease(as many writers say), something foreign has taken over us and sadly, just because something might work for me doesnt mean it will work for the next person. In this case, we need individualised remedies to cure us and since there is no one out there willing(or capable) to diagnos our own specific problems and come up with our own specific cure, we are left to treat ourselves. Be our own doctors if you will. We get guidance along the way but nothing decisive that will finally cure us. The decisive part has to come from ourselves.

From your post, I can make out elements to do with the personality. This seeking of approval from others. This feeling of a need to be part of something. Nothing wrong with that. Rejection is a bitter pill to swallow and if it is any consolation to you, I have swallowed this pill multiple times from multiple sources. How does it make me feel? Like a victim. Makes me feel wounded, makes me wallow in self-sympathy and self-pity. It is sad that the world can be so cruel and to be fair you have to commend or acknowledge its ability to pierce us right at the core of our being with such ruthlessness and an apparent lack of remorse - that's a skill in of itself. What can you do though? I say the best response is to break free. Free from all this crap! This crap is out there and in us and that is why it is so hard to just function properly! Excuse my language. Sometimes it can seem easier to just turn a blind eye because as you said, the mess is huge and the pain from having to deal with it is great!

Sometimes it is valid rejection, in that we are worthless humanbeings in whatever respect, sometimes it is invalid, a form of torment. Either way, I think your best response is to do work on yourself. You might be worthless in other peoples eyes and even maybe in your own eyes but it's important to know that, you are here and for that there must be some intrinsic worth in you. Something worth fighting for. Dont turn into the evil that makes you feel that bad, instead develop sight to see right through it, to make it run away from you. To stare it in the face and not let it obliterate you. That is the power it has over us. It makes us weak, makes us docile, makes us into little children - one look at it and we are rendered crippled or paralysed. Am still in this fight and hopefully one day i'll get free of its grip so I can become an actualised human being with strength and all those positive qualities.

Sadly this is all I can offer, words of encouragement.

 

[go2]

I think i need a break from posting for a while, until im integrated enough and self-aware enough to know why im saying what i am.

Melatonin, you are becoming cynical about your own cynicism. That path leads to Faith, Hope, and Love. What will you do without bitterness? :)

 

[ana]

Two more important points about cynicism:

First, it is reflexive. It generally does not seek to discern, rather it seeks to condemn. Example: "He's probably only being nice to her so he can get in her pants." Well, he might be, and he might not.

Second, it is scornful. There is a value judgment. And this means that the cynic wishes that things were otherwise. And which way would that be? His way.

Now, if a cynic begins to identify beyond himself, he won't dismiss virtue so casually. He will examine it to see if it is counterfeit. He won't waste his energy wishing for another world. He use that energy to better this one, starting with himself.

Hi Dorothy :),

Maybe you’ll find interesting this review of The Lost Gospel:The book of Q and Christian Origins by Burton L.Mack done by Laura where you’ll find a new view and maybe understanding of Cynicism.

This is striking because the Cynics are remembered as distinctly unlovable because they promoted biting sarcasm and public behavior that was designed to call attention to the absurdity of standard conventions.

Cynics were:
"critics of conventional values and oppressive forms of government. [...] Their gifts and graces ranged from the endurance of a life of renunciation in full public view, through the courage to offer social critique in high places, to the learning and sophistication required for the espousal of Cynic views at the highest level of literary composition. Justly famous as irritants to those who lived by the system and enjoyed the blessings of privilege, prosperity, and power, the Cynics were rightly regarded for their achievement in honing the virtue of self-sufficiency in the midst of uncertain times.
The crisp sayings of Jesus in Q show that his followers thought of him as a Cynic-like sage. [...]

These popular philosophers of a natural way of life did not wander off to suffer in silence. Their props were a setup for a little game of gotcha with the citizens of the town. [...] The Cynic's purpose was to point out the disparities sustained by the social system and refuse to let the system put him in his place. [...] The marketplace was the Cynic's platform, the place to display a living example of freedom from social and cultural constraints, and a place from which to address townspeople about the current state of affairs. [...] The challenge for a Cynic was to see the humor in a situation and quickly turn it to advantage. [...]

In our time there is no single social role with which to compare the ancient Cynics. But we do recognize the social critic and take for granted a number of ways in which social and cultural critique are expressed. These compare nicely with various aspects of the Cynic's profession. For example, we are accustomed to the social critique of political cartoonists, standup comedians, and especially of satire in the genre of the cabaret. All of these use humor to make their point. We are also accustomed to social critique in a more serious and philosophical vein, such as that represented by political commentary. And there is precedent for taking up an alternative lifestyle as social protest, from the utopian movement of the nineteenth century, to the counterculture movement of the 1960s, to the environmentalist protest of the 1980s and 1990s. The list could be greatly expanded, for much modern entertainment also sets its scenes against the backdrop of the unexamined taboos and prejudices prevailing in our time. Each of these approaches to critical assessment of our society (satire, commentary, and alternative lifestyle), bears some resemblance to the profession of the Cynic sage in late antiquity. [...]
Noting the Cynic's wit should not divert our attention from their sense of vocation and purpose. Epictetus wrote that the Cynic could be likened to a spy or scout from another world or kingdom, whose assignment was to observe human behavior and render a judgment upon it. The Cynic could also be likened to a physician sent to diagnose and heal a society's ills. [...] The Stoics sometimes claimed the Cynics as their precursors. [...]

[The Cynics] were much more interested in the question of virtue, or how an individual should live given the failure of social and political systems to support what they called a natural way of life. They borrowed freely from any and every popular ethical philosophy, such as that of the Stoics, to get a certain point across. That point was the cost to one's intelligence and integrity if one blindly followed social convention and accepted its customary rationalizations. [...]

What counted most, they said, was a sense of personal worth and integrity. One should not allow others to determine one's worth on the scale of social position. One already possessed all the resources one needed to live sanely and well by virtue of being a human being. Why not be true to the way in which the world actually impinges upon you [objectively]? Say what you want and what you mean. Respond to a situation as you see it in truth, not as the usual proprieties dictate. Do not let the world squeeze you into its mold. Speak up and act out. The invitation was to take courage and swim against the social currents that threatened to overwhelm and silence a person's sense of verve. [...]

 

[melatonin]

Thanks for what you said Luke Wilson and your encouragement and thoughts. Much appreciated. Thanks go2 aswell.

Ive been in a position most of my life where ive been physcologically like a child, so ive been vunerable.
Maybe im cynical because ive seen just how bad adults can be.
Adults assume that another adult will have healthy boundaires, so they often believe that people are happy with how they are being treated, unless they speak out against it. Trauma survivors have skewed boundaries, some dont even realise it.
And people stomp all over you just because you dont have the awareness/strength/knowledge/maturity to speak out.
Its amazing what emotional abuse is seemed as being acceptable from even the most 'caring' type of person, just because the adult on the recieving end doesnt have the ability to speak out.

And i think calling someone cynical is assuming we have all had the same experiences.
Heres my example to explain what i mean. Edited* spelling mistake.

Say (for example) i was a victim to traum/mind control/brainwashing from my own government, who was supposed to be looking out for me as a child. (an example).
My view of the world (because of my awareness) would include this experience.

So would i be viewed as a cynic by someone who trusted their government, and happily let their kids go to school without a secound thought.

I personally have alot of anger at the world in general, so in that sense i guess i am cynical.
But (believe me) forgiveness ISNT a word that goes down well with victims of child abuse/trauma/conditioning.

Its easy to forgive when you have your life back together and it no longer affects you. And even then its only because id be so driven to spend every secound of my time making up for lost time.

 

[anart]

melatonin, maybe Ana's post will help (Ana, you beat me to it). As I mentioned earlier, cynicism is a strength. I think Dorothy Minder might be ascribing a lot of negative qualities to it that don't necessarily fit.

In other words, I see no reason for you to stop posting, though I do see a lot of reasons for you to continue, while working on opening up your mind just a bit to possibilities, instead of focusing only on all that is NOT how it should be. I know that's difficult, but it's worth a shot, I think.

 

[mkrnhr]

Maybe cynism is described according to different "flavours" in this thread. Sometimes it may be confounded with sarcasm, yet they are very different.

 

[ana]

melatonin, maybe Ana's post will help (Ana, you beat me to it). As I mentioned earlier, cynicism is a strength. I think Dorothy Minder might be ascribing a lot of negative qualities to it that don't necessarily fit.

In other words, I see no reason for you to stop posting, though I do see a lot of reasons for you to continue, while working on opening up your mind just a bit to possibilities, instead of focusing only on all that is NOT how it should be. I know that's difficult, but it's worth a shot, I think.

I agree and also:

I personally have alot of anger at the world in general, so in that sense i guess i am cynical.
But (believe me) forgiveness ISNT a word that goes down well with victims of child abuse/trauma/conditioning.

Its easy to forgive when you have your life back together and it no longer affects you. And even then its only because id be so driven to spend every secound of my time making up for lost time.

I think the above has nothing to do with the use of cynicism but with someone who has not healed and who is still suffering.

Maybe you can give yourself a chance with the Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program
Have you done some reading on the Diet and Health section to make the necessary changes?

The truth is that you are not alone and you have examples on this forum of how healing IS possible.

 

[luke wilson]

I dont think we are all using the same defination of cynicism.

Maybe that can be the cause of the apparent misunderstandings.

The cynic that Ana describes, is a lifestyle choice. A way born from a relatively healthy stand-point. They could see beyond the mirage and poke fun at it. That kind of cynic is kind of like uhmm, non-existant. The people who draw political cartoons making fun at the politicians might be cynics in that way but that doesnt mean they carry that in every aspect of there life - arent most of them employed by the establishment that they are supposedly poking fun at? Talk about a contradiction. As I understood from the passage Ana posted, those [ancient] cynics were cynics through and through. 100% lifestyle choice - no compromise, no selling an inch of human dignity to the devil that was the system for whatever price! Lived outside the system. Practically non-existant nowadays... The modern cynic and those cynics are 2 different people, OSIT. I think those cynics would poke fun at the modern cynic...

Melatonin isnt that kind of [ancient] cynic. His cynicism wasnt born from a healthy stand-point. OSIT.

So would i be viewed as a cynic by someone who trusted their government, and happily let their kids go to school without a secound thought.

He is a cynic because of his experiences. In other words, because of his experiences he has developed a lack of trust for the world out there. This lack of trust is because the world out there, hurt him. In this sense, he is wounded and he has to work to heal the wounds as Ana said.

From what I understand, those ancient cynics were cynics for entirely different reasons. They were cynics because they found the world out there with its imposed customs and contradictions laughable and ridiculous...

 

[anart]

He is a cynic because of his experiences. In other words, because of his experiences he has developed a lack of trust for the world out there. This lack of trust is because the world out there, hurt him. In this sense, he is wounded and he has to work to heal the wounds as Ana said.

That's what Ana is getting at here:

I think the above has nothing to do with the use of cynicism but with someone who has not healed and who is still suffering.

Maybe you can give yourself a chance with the Éiriú-Eolas - Breathing Program
Have you done some reading on the Diet and Health section to make the necessary changes?

The quality that is born from suffering is noticeable and does color everything - but the core of cynicism; of not accepting the status quo as 'normal' just because it is, of looking with a critical eye at all and everything, is still an important tool.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I dont think we are all using the same defination of cynicism.

Maybe that can be the cause of the apparent misunderstandings.

The cynic that Ana describes, is a lifestyle choice. A way born from a relatively healthy stand-point. They could see beyond the mirage and poke fun at it. That kind of cynic is kind of like uhmm, non-existant. The people who draw political cartoons making fun at the politicians might be cynics in that way but that doesnt mean they carry that in every aspect of there life - arent most of them employed by the establishment that they are supposedly poking fun at? Talk about a contradiction. As I understood from the passage Ana posted, those [ancient] cynics were cynics through and through. 100% lifestyle choice - no compromise, no selling an inch of human dignity to the devil that was the system for whatever price! Lived outside the system. Practically non-existant nowadays... The modern cynic and those cynics are 2 different people, OSIT. I think those cynics would poke fun at the modern cynic...

Melatonin isnt that kind of [ancient] cynic. His cynicism wasnt born from a healthy stand-point. OSIT.

Perhaps this will help, from my computer's dictionary:

cynic |ˈsɪnɪk|
noun
1 a person who believes that people are motivated purely by self-interest rather than acting for honorable or unselfish reasons : some cynics thought that the controversy was all a publicity stunt.
• a person who questions whether something will happen or whether it is worthwhile : the cynics were silenced when the factory opened.
2 ( Cynic) a member of a school of ancient Greek philosophers founded by Antisthenes, marked by an ostentatious contempt for ease and pleasure. The movement flourished in the 3rd century bc and revived in the 1st century ad.

A cynic sees the egoism of people, but as virtue and goodness are nowhere to be found behind the hypocrisy he sees, he perhaps rejects them as possibilities (throws the baby out with the bathwater). He is jaded and lacks hope. A Cynic sees the egoism of people, and exposes it in such a way that people may see the possibilities beyond the reality he sees. He sees another reality, a potential reality, and creates conditions for it to manifest. A cynic sees the world as it is, a Cynic sees it as it COULD be. OSIT.