Why Gurdjieff?

monkey said:
Good question

One answer to that would be the focus on the internal and not the external this is, as far as I can see, hazardous to the delicate human mind and conjures up undesirable consequences upon the ego and the shadow self I'm obviously referring to Jung here. Following Gurdjieffs teachings have led many to personal destruction.
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Just because Gurdjieff says

'Man is a reaction machine" doesn't mean he is a total authority, its just his perspective. Have you looked at Ryle and his Ghost in the machine?

Again, this Man is a reaction machine isn't original to Gurdjieff its origins are in Descartes - mind body dualism
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These read like you've already decided, and therefore your questioning seems formulated so as to elicit a desired response.
 
My aim is the truth and in order to gain the truth you have to do research, in order to do research you have to look at the whole picture and use your whole mind.

I am interested in 'The Work' but where does one start as there are many roads into it? :shock:
 
monkey said:
Just because Gurdjieff says

'Man is a reaction machine" doesn't mean he is a total authority, its just his perspective. Have you looked at Ryle and his Ghost in the machine?

Again, this Man is a reaction machine isn't original to Gurdjieff its origins are in Descartes - mind body dualism
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As Leo40 said:

Leo40 said:
[...] to find out one has to do it.
In my younger years I was reading Gurdjeff as an intellectual excercise, like any other
philosopher or thinker. Naturally I did'nt get it.
It is absolutely essential to apply Gurdjeff's statements to yourself.
e.g. Man is a reaction machine. Did you ever realise that you are?
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You can validate his statements by observing yourself. This is the basis - as opposed to simply taking his word.

Though if you have no practical interest, no aim, then you'll see no reason, and so you'll never make the efforts to simply establish it for yourself, and you will be left with your present perspective which seems to be, as Leo40 suggested, taking Gurdjieff as an intellectual excercise, which is missing everything of value in what he had to say.

So, you need to figure out whether to give it a go and see for yourself. We cannot answer that for you. It is up to you.
 
Fair point psalehesost

What has putting Gurdjieff into practice done for you on a personal level?
 
monkey said:
My aim is the truth and in order to gain the truth you have to do research, in order to do research you have to look at the whole picture and use your whole mind.

I am interested in 'The Work' but where does one start as there are many roads into it? :shock:
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I think the best place to start is with Self Remembering. You have to come to a visceral understanding that you are a mechanical being. To that aim, many of us have found Ouspensky's book In Search of the Miraculous helpful as a good starter book for the Work.
 
A man with intellect focused solely on the external world of predator, food, or mate is a reptilian beast. This pathology is called psychopathy. What are the fruits of man the psychopath? War, starvation, slavery, and torture are the fruits of man focused on the external world.

Mammels have a potential to feel their own inner state and the inner state of another. This capacity has atrophied in mankind, as the Judaic ideas of dualism extinguished the Gurdjieffian idea that man's potential is a balanced three centered being. This is why we study Gurdjieff. He describes the horror of man the two-centered externally focused animal and shows a way to grow and connect the feeling center, thereby adding relationship and meaning to this existence.

Gurdjieff does not focus on the internal as an aim, but the internal method is the avenue to grow into a being simultaneously inhabiting the external world of survival, the internal world of feeling in relationship, and the abstract world of the intellect.

The fruits of a three centered existence are Faith, Hope, and Love. :)
 
"I think the best place to start is with Self Remembering. You have to come to a visceral understanding that you are a mechanical being. To that aim, many of us have found Ouspensky's book In Search of the Miraculous helpful as a good starter book for the Work"

Ryanx

This is my whole point here, the self remembering is the internal -- the slant which Gurdjieff puts on 'The Work'

Before I can accept such a major perspective change like man is a machine and all its connotations I need to know if it is the right way, handing over your mind and body is the most serious decision you can make.

Please stop asking me to go to another forum I'm asking genuine questions here and would like guidance and would like personal opinions on what they are doing rather then just references to other sources - fair play ?
 
monkey said:
What has putting Gurdjieff into practice done for you on a personal level?
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In short, it has made me see many things in myself - everything contained in this essay, and more - and so cleaned my "reading instrument". And cleaning one's reading instrument is the first step towards arriving at the truth. The process of doing so is long, and far from over. Still, it has already changed my perspective on life, the universe, and everything. And as a result, my life can - very gradually - be changed in accordance with my Search. Much remains, because the Work is long and hard. But Becoming is ultimately the only thing that ever could be meaningful.
 
monkey said:
"I think the best place to start is with Self Remembering. You have to come to a visceral understanding that you are a mechanical being. To that aim, many of us have found Ouspensky's book In Search of the Miraculous helpful as a good starter book for the Work"

Ryanx

This is my whole point here, the self remembering is the internal -- the slant which Gurdjieff puts on 'The Work'

Before I can accept such a major perspective change like man is a machine and all its connotations I need to know if it is the right way, handing over your mind and body is the most serious decision you can make.
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Monkey, you might want to just hold your horses there. First of all, no one is here to convince you of anything. If you see no value in the Work of Gurdjieff, then this forum is not for you. Secondly, no one - at any time or in any way - ever 'hands over their mind or body' to anyone or anything here. I have no idea where you get your ideas about this forum and Work we do but please understand that you are so misguided as to be 'not even wrong' - you're so far afield from the truth that it is almost impossible to communicate with you about it.

If you do not think what we discuss here is worthwhile, please move along and find whatever it is you are looking for. Gurdjieff's Work needs no defense - reading it and understanding it is all that is ever needed.

monkey said:
Please stop asking me to go to another forum I'm asking genuine questions here and would like guidance and would like personal opinions on what they are doing rather then just references to other sources - fair play ?
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The point here, monkey is that we are not here to guide you - we are here to provide research and information that a wise person can use to guide themselves and reveal the truth in their own lives and selves. It is up to YOU - not to us, not to anyone else. So, don't lay that on this forum - don't come here with your erroneous preconceptions about what it is we do and what it is Gurdjieff does and expect us to defend any of it - defense is not necessary since truth stands on its own.

Now, if you are sincere, then get to work reading and working these things out for yourself. If you are not sincere, please move along.
 
Thanks go2

But why accept the horror of man? Yes our political leaders are insane and have distorted our own personalities through the media but I couldn't condemn the whole of mankind as a horror? This is starting from the basic premise that we are irrational, this is how they want us to think of ourselves and this has many connotations as well.

If a government goes on the premise that humans are irrational it will set up its state on that foundation
 
monkey said:
This is my whole point here, the self remembering is the internal -- the slant which Gurdjieff puts on 'The Work'

Before I can accept such a major perspective change like man is a machine and all its connotations I need to know if it is the right way, handing over your mind and body is the most serious decision you can make.

Please stop asking me to go to another forum I'm asking genuine questions here and would like guidance and would like personal opinions on what they are doing rather then just references to other sources - fair play ?
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Unfortunately, monkey, there's no free lunch in the universe. The only way to verify the work for yourself is to do the work. No one's going to come along and say, "It's okay", and thus give you a free pass to start the work. In a sense, that requires a leap of faith, but not the type of faith commonly referred to in religions of all sort. It's faith in truth. The first thing you need is a skeptical mind. The work has no need for blind followers or blind disbelievers. You also need is a desire to know, a desire to find the truth. For this, one needs to have reached a state of personal bankruptcy. That means no longer sitting on the fence, saying "Well, it's kind of interesting, but if there's a chance it isn't true, I don't really want to put in the time and effort to see if that's the case". It's only when all other options seem hollow, then you can make the choice to see what is true, no matter WHAT you see. It may be ugly, but if it is the truth, that is its own reward, and the results will amaze you. But don't take my word for it. The work isn't for everybody and maybe it isn't for you. But if even the idea that "man is a machine" and yet has undreamed of potentials inspires you, then is it not worth it to see if you can verify it for yourself?
 
anart

Why is it necessary to be rude and unfriendly?

This forum in acting as an authority and therefore I assume with authority comes guidance

I'm asking reasonable questions
 
monkey said:
Ryanx

This is my whole point here, the self remembering is the internal -- the slant which Gurdjieff puts on 'The Work'

Before I can accept such a major perspective change like man is a machine and all its connotations I need to know if it is the right way, handing over your mind and body is the most serious decision you can make.
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Whoa... if you're looking for someplace to turn over your mind and body to, you've walked into the wrong bar!

Besides, if you're like 99.9% of the people out there, you've already done this in one sense or another and don't even realize it.
 
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