yay for Turmeric!

[wanderer]

Thanks for the reference Z. Here's what I got out of the paper, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The lack of DNA damage at low doses suggested that low levels of curcumin does not induce DNA damage and may play an antioxidant role in carcinogenesis. But at high doses, we found that curcumin imposed oxidative stress and damaged DNA.

The studies used curcumin solutions of 0, 2.5, 5, 10, 20, and 40 μg/ml so I'm guessing a low dose is @2.5 and a high dose is 20+.

In a clinical study of high-dose oral curcumin performed by Cheng et al. (2001), the 8-g/day dose resulted in a peak serum concentration of 1.77 ± 1.87μM. In another study, coadministration of piperine, primarily found in the fruit of the pepper vine Piper nigrum and also found in other vegetables and spices such as hot jalapeno peppers, may increase the systemic bioavailability of curcumin (Shoba et al., 1998). In the same study, coingestion of curcumin with 20 mg of the pepper constituent 1-piperoylpiperidine appeared to increase curcumin's bioavailability by 2000%. Combining the data from the two studies, the peak serum concentration of curcumin may be about 35.4μM (about 13 μg/ml).

So 8-g/day to given orally to a rodent resulted in a 1.87μM serum concentration, and they project that a bio-available version might result in 13 μg/ml, which is still @ half of the high dose. To reach the high dose levels would require @ 15g/day.

I'm not sure how to translate that into human terms, but I probably weigh 100+ more than your average rat

Even for the rat the recommended dose of .5/1g per day would result in a serum concentration of .8 = 1.6.

Would that be .008 - .0016 for me? In any case it's lower than the lowest non-zero concentrations used in this study.

It leaves me with the impression that the recommended dose is safe.

 

[Z...]

Yes, however since there is a lack of studies on the effect of higher doses of curcumin extract in humans I would exercise caution.

But that's just me, I learned that every substance can be double edged sword, especially when you dealing with extracts. FWIW

 

[SeekinTruth]

For what it's worth, I thought I'd mention that I've read the benefits of whole turmeric are much better than curcumin. Among the sources citing studies relatively recently was Sayer Ji of Greenmedinfo, which I'm pretty sure was carried on SOTT in the last few months. There's been several well designed studies that show all known benefits are much higher when using turmeric than isolated curcumin, and the doses of the studies cited by Greenmedinfo used moderately low doses of turmeric. Usually, Sayer Ji/Greenmedinfo are pretty thorough in research and review and reliable.

 

[Konstantin]

For what it's worth, I thought I'd mention that I've read the benefits of whole turmeric are much better than curcumin. Among the sources citing studies relatively recently was Sayer Ji of Greenmedinfo, which I'm pretty sure was carried on SOTT in the last few months. There's been several well designed studies that show all known benefits are much higher when using turmeric than isolated curcumin, and the doses of the studies cited by Greenmedinfo used moderately low doses of turmeric. Usually, Sayer Ji/Greenmedinfo are pretty thorough in research and review and reliable.

Thank you SeekinTruth. I found a lot of articles about Turmeric on SOTT. I think that you mean of this one:

http://www.sott.net/article/255069-Turmeric-extract-puts-drugs-for-knee-osteoarthritis-to-shame

there are very useful information about Turmeric and Curcumin in there.

Curcumin: The LD50 for mice is >2,000 mg/kg, meaning that it would take more than 2,000 mg/kg of mouse to acutely kill 50% of an exposed group.

In order to get perspective on how toxic an LD50 of 95 mg/kg is, let's first calculate how much of this chemical it would take in milligrams to kill an average sized mouse. Mice are between 15-27 grams, depending on their age, strain and diet. If we take the average between the two, at 21 grams, our mouse would weigh 0.021 kilograms. This means that it only takes 1.9 milligrams to acutely kill 50% of the mice given such a dose.

Extrapolating to humans, an average 150 lb adult weighs 68.03 kilograms, it would only take 6462 milligrams, or 6.46 grams to kill 50% of the humans given the dose. This is less than the weight of three pennies (7.5 grams). Compare this to the LD50 of curcumin (2,000 mg/kg), where it would take more than 136,000 mgs (4.86 ounces) to kill 50% of the humans given it - and even this estimation is doubtful, since it is likely that it would simply be vomited up, or expelled through the gastrointestinal tract, and other organs of elimination, before reaching lethal levels in the body. Also, remember that it only took 90 mg a day in the aforementioned study to reduce inflammation as effectively as diclofenac sodium. The difference between the 90 mg required to produce an effective response, and a (theoretical) 136,000 mg threshold for lethal toxicity, is four orders of magnitude.

In practical terms, the chance of you hurting yourself with a drug like diclofenac sodium -- ironically, in an attempt to reduce pain -- as compared to a simple kitchen spice like turmeric, is infinitely higher. Consider too, that there are over 100 known adverse health effects associated with this chemical class of drugs, whereas turmeric (and curcumin) has been linked to over 600 beneficial ones -- not exactly a hard choice to make, when it comes to risk-benefit analysis.

Benefits of whole turmeric are great.I will continue to use Turmeric. Some time ago i was thinking about curcumin capsules, but i will use just turmeric.The benefits are much larger when using it as a whole spice.

Here are some other links from SOTT

http://www.sott.net/article/206590-Turmeric-is-the-Anti-Aging-Anti-Oxidant-Anti-Inflammatory-Super-Spice

http://www.sott.net/article/239198-Turmeric-The-Return-of-The-Golden-Goddess

http://www.sott.net/article/263903-Why-turmeric-may-be-the-diseased-livers-best-friend



Mod's note: Activated SOTT links because we like SOTT.

 

[wanderer]

Thanks all for the great information. I will be looking more deeply into this since tumeric/curcumin is an important part of my regimen. If raw tumeric can provide the same or better benefits as curcumin that would be great, curcumin is expensive and a natural substance is always preferable.

I question the LD50 values quoted by Konstantin.

This means that it only takes 1.9 milligrams to acutely kill 50% of the mice given such a dose.

As I noted in my analysis of the study that K referenced the mice were given 6g/day. If the above statement is true it seems that most of the mice would have died and there's no mention of this. While it is common practice in studies of chemotherapy agents to simply remove subjects who died during the study in order to cherry pick the data and arrive at the preselected conclusion I don't see any motive to do so here. If anything this study may have the goal of demonizing a natural cure by testing absurdly large dosages to show a negative effect.

Even accepting this LD50 number there seems to be no issue with .5 - 1g/day

 

[SeekinTruth]

For what it's worth, I thought I'd mention that I've read the benefits of whole turmeric are much better than curcumin. Among the sources citing studies relatively recently was Sayer Ji of Greenmedinfo, which I'm pretty sure was carried on SOTT in the last few months. There's been several well designed studies that show all known benefits are much higher when using turmeric than isolated curcumin, and the doses of the studies cited by Greenmedinfo used moderately low doses of turmeric. Usually, Sayer Ji/Greenmedinfo are pretty thorough in research and review and reliable.

Thank you SeekinTruth. I found a lot of articles about Turmeric on SOTT. I think that you mean of this one:

http://www.sott.net/article/255069-Turmeric-extract-puts-drugs-for-knee-osteoarthritis-to-shame

there are very useful information about Turmeric and Curcumin in there.

Curcumin: The LD50 for mice is >2,000 mg/kg, meaning that it would take more than 2,000 mg/kg of mouse to acutely kill 50% of an exposed group.

In order to get perspective on how toxic an LD50 of 95 mg/kg is, let's first calculate how much of this chemical it would take in milligrams to kill an average sized mouse. Mice are between 15-27 grams, depending on their age, strain and diet. If we take the average between the two, at 21 grams, our mouse would weigh 0.021 kilograms. This means that it only takes 1.9 milligrams to acutely kill 50% of the mice given such a dose.

Extrapolating to humans, an average 150 lb adult weighs 68.03 kilograms, it would only take 6462 milligrams, or 6.46 grams to kill 50% of the humans given the dose. This is less than the weight of three pennies (7.5 grams). Compare this to the LD50 of curcumin (2,000 mg/kg), where it would take more than 136,000 mgs (4.86 ounces) to kill 50% of the humans given it - and even this estimation is doubtful, since it is likely that it would simply be vomited up, or expelled through the gastrointestinal tract, and other organs of elimination, before reaching lethal levels in the body. Also, remember that it only took 90 mg a day in the aforementioned study to reduce inflammation as effectively as diclofenac sodium. The difference between the 90 mg required to produce an effective response, and a (theoretical) 136,000 mg threshold for lethal toxicity, is four orders of magnitude.

In practical terms, the chance of you hurting yourself with a drug like diclofenac sodium -- ironically, in an attempt to reduce pain -- as compared to a simple kitchen spice like turmeric, is infinitely higher. Consider too, that there are over 100 known adverse health effects associated with this chemical class of drugs, whereas turmeric (and curcumin) has been linked to over 600 beneficial ones -- not exactly a hard choice to make, when it comes to risk-benefit analysis.

Benefits of whole turmeric are great.I will continue to use Turmeric. Some time ago i was thinking about curcumin capsules, but i will use just turmeric.The benefits are much larger when using it as a whole spice.

Here are some other links from SOTT

http://www.sott.net/article/206590-Turmeric-is-the-Anti-Aging-Anti-Oxidant-Anti-Inflammatory-Super-Spice

http://www.sott.net/article/239198-Turmeric-The-Return-of-The-Golden-Goddess

http://www.sott.net/article/263903-Why-turmeric-may-be-the-diseased-livers-best-friend



Mod's note: Activated SOTT links because we like SOTT.

No, the Greenmedinfo article, the one I was talking about, was more recent (like maybe in the last two or three months) that compared studies between beneficial effects of curcumin vs whole turmeric and turmeric won hands down. Also, as I mentioned, the doses of turmeric were relatively low to get the benefits. Can't seem to find that article now.

 

[Gaby]

No, the Greenmedinfo article, the one I was talking about, was more recent (like maybe in the last two or three months) that compared studies between beneficial effects of curcumin vs whole turmeric and turmeric won hands down. Also, as I mentioned, the doses of turmeric were relatively low to get the benefits. Can't seem to find that article now.

Perhaps one of these?

Whole turmeric better at healing damaged brain than curcumin isolates
http://www.sott.net/article/289345-Whole-turmeric-better-at-healing-damaged-brain-than-curcumin-isolates

Science confirms Turmeric as effective as 14 Drugs
http://www.sott.net/article/262839-Science-confirms-Turmeric-as-effective-as-14-Drugs

 

[SeekinTruth]

Yup, the first one was one of the recent articles I was talking about. Thanks, Gaby.

 

[wanderer]

Thanks for all the great info on raw tumeric. I ordered some and intend to make fermented tumeric (http://www.sarahwilson.com/2014/08/fermented-turmeric-tonic/)a part of my daily regimin. The combined benefits of natural probiotics and tumeric is a real winner.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but

One of the most remarkable facts about turmeric as a potential drug and chemotherapy alternative is its exceptionally high margin of safety. A 2001 study in cancer patients reported that quantities of curcumin up to 8 g, administered per day for three months, were not toxic and resulted in significant anti-cancer properties in a number of those treated.[5] Considering that turmeric is only 3-4% curcumin by weight, this implies that a larger quantity of turmeric can be consumed safely, as well.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/why-turmeric-may-be-diseased-livers-best-friend-friend-a

I think safety concerns about curcumin at the recommended dosage are unfounded. Prophylactic use of the natural substance to avoid the need for higher, therapeutic doses of the extract is surely a great idea but unfortunately it's too late for me. I've already had several life threatening conditions for which curcumin is indicated. I'd like to believe that elimination of inflammatory foods and hormonal imbalances on the keto diet have addressed the underlying causes but I can't really be sure.

For the time being I intend to continue using curcumin along with fermented tumeric.

 

[Z...]

I think safety concerns about curcumin at the recommended dosage are unfounded.

Well, even in recommended dose it can be detrimental for people with existing gall stones, or people prone to oxalate kidney stones.

 

[wanderer]

Well, even in recommended dose it can be detrimental for people with existing gall stones, or people prone to oxalate kidney stones.

Agreed, you must always consider your individual health conditions when taking any supplement. Unfortunately, you have to figure this out for yourself (or with the help of a good network ). Mainstream advice is most likely wrong and "alternative" doctors are often blinded by personal agendas and unfounded beliefs. I've been given some very bad advice by alternative/complimentary doctors.

 

[Weller]

My local grocery store started carrying fresh tumeric, so whenever I can I buy some (usually 5-6 finger-sized pieces) and pickle it with sliced daikon (radish) - it lactoferments beautifully and the pickled version tastes like mild ginger root.

To make - I peel the daikon and tumeric, cutting them up like carrot slices. I add sea salt and water, sometimes ginger as well (though beware pickled ginger is very hot/spicy), and the jar sits out 3 days at room temp to ferment then into the fridge, it's a beautiful thing. The tumeric colors the radish a pretty, bright yellow. I sprinkle a few on my salad or eat some as a digestive after dinner.

 

[Thaigrr]

No, the Greenmedinfo article, the one I was talking about, was more recent (like maybe in the last two or three months) that compared studies between beneficial effects of curcumin vs whole turmeric and turmeric won hands down. Also, as I mentioned, the doses of turmeric were relatively low to get the benefits. Can't seem to find that article now.

Perhaps one of these?

Whole turmeric better at healing damaged brain than curcumin isolates
http://www.sott.net/article/289345-Whole-turmeric-better-at-healing-damaged-brain-than-curcumin-isolates

Science confirms Turmeric as effective as 14 Drugs
http://www.sott.net/article/262839-Science-confirms-Turmeric-as-effective-as-14-Drugs

Turmeric and magnesium were recommended to me by my former (I moved out of state recently) MD, specifically for muscle soreness and osteoarthritis.

Pharmaceuticals were not an option for me and likewise for him. His "GP" (General Practice) is all nutrition and supplement based modalities.

I have to say he was perfect in his recommendations!

 

[Stoneboss]

Re: Turmeric golden paste recipe and some important tips

I have been following veterinary turmeric forum for some time. Initially I was very skeptical because people report great results for whole range of conditions from tumors to Alzheimer. Then I introduced it to few of my dermatological cases who initially responded well to homeopathy but then stopped responding. The results were nothing short of a miracle. Recently I introduced it to one hemangiosarcoma case and will report the result.
In the meantime I suggested it to a family member who suffers from arthritis and again the result was great. In this case it also seemed to have beneficial affect on cognitive functions and mood swings.
So definitely thumbs up for turmeric both for humans and animals.

Having said this there are few important tips that have to be mentioned:

-Turmeric is not water soluble and in order to be utilized by the body needs to be mixed with good fat. Otherwise it will just pass through the body and upset the intestines. In addition it needs to be supplemented with piperine ( from peppercorns) in order to increase its bioavailabilty and prolong its stay in the body.

- People who have gallstones should exercise extreme caution as turmeric seems to stimulate peristalsis of bile ducts which means that it can trigger gallstone attack once they start moving, otherwise this is great news for people who eat lots of fat and need bile production to function to its optimum.
-It seems turmeric has to be taken permanently in serious conditions as the effect stops as soon as intake of turmeric is stopped.
- it is very important to source organic and genuine turmeric powder, there is a lot of turmeric on the market which is basically depleted of curcumin ( to be used for curcumin capsules) and spiekd with wheat flower and artificial colors. The powder can be tested by mixing one spoon in the glas of water, if the water remains clear ( orange but clear) the powder is ok in contrast to bad turmeric with added flower in which case water will be cloudy and mucky.

Here is the recipe for turmeric golden paste along with some tips:

1/2 cup turmeric powder (125 mls)

1 cup water (250 mls), and 1 cup in reserve if needed

1/3 cup (70 mls) cold pressed Olive or Coconut oil

Place turmeric and water in pan, stirring over gentle heat until you have a thick paste. This should take about 7 - 10 minutes and you will need to add additional water along the way. Add the pepper and oil at the end of cooking. Stir well (a whisk is ideal) and allow to cool. Store in sterilised glass jar and refrigerate. Will keep for up to four weeks, refrigerated - best used within two. You can add it to your bullet proof tea or add to your dinner plate as a condiment. (on its own it tastes awful and it is difficult to swallow without gagging) (
Same recipe may also be used for animals but it has to be mixed with their food)

It's a good idea to start gently - 1/4 teaspoon of golden paste or powder, 2 times a day, perhaps. After a week increase to 1/2 teaspoon 2 times a day, until you build up to one full teaspoon 3 times a day. Cases with severe conditions require up to full table spoon 3 times a day.


In this recipe they add pepper immediately into the whole batch of paste, but for best result grind pepper ( few turns of the grinder, increasing as you increase the paste quantity ) with each serving of the paste.
BLACK PEPPER - peppercorns contain a substance called Piperine which goes to work in two ways -it increases intestinal absorption and in the liver it slows up the excretion of the curcumin. This allows time for the curcumin to be taken up into the blood stream. Utilisation of turmeric can be increased by up to 20 times, by Piperine.
Fresh ground black peppercorns are recommended because you can control the freshness of the Piperine. Other peppercorns will also contain Piperine but the black peppercorns are the best source, also easiest to find.
Freshly ground black pepper is best, but if you can't manage to add the pepper at the last minute, that's OK. Add a couple of extra grinds and try to keep your pepper coarse (chunky). Do not use finely pre-ground black pepper (as for pepper shakers) - it will have no value.

CAYENNE PEPPER is not suitable as a substitute - it is from the capsicum family which not only doesn't contain Piperine but it is inflammatory.

Thanks for the info on how to test the quality of turmeric Z. As it turns out, I've been using "bad" turmeric (turned cloudy and mucky in a glass of water) for the last couple of years!

I really need to be more careful at reading the ingredients for everything I consume...

 

[Meanderthal]

Hi folks,


Attending a recent MindBodySpirit exhibition in Melbourne, Australia I picked up some turmeric blended product upon viewing the companys' website and being highly impressed with

1. the rawness of a dozen off-the-street type short video testimonials of far reaching early benefits:

https://buyturmerix.com/au/product-review/


plus
2. a compelling(to me) article by Dr Andrew Weil on the same site starting of with:


Why Plants Are (Usually) Better Than Drugs

I have always been fascinated by the difference between plants and the drugs that are isolated from them. This goes back to my student days at Harvard in the 1960s, where I received my undergraduate degree in botany, and then went on to medical school. It’s rare — too rare, I have to say — for botanists to become doctors. The experience gave me a unique perspective on health and medicine. ....

https://buyturmerix.com/au/turmeric-powder-vs-capsule-supplement/


Hopefully a little serendipity plays out well with this as just before a neighbour I had not spoken to for over 6 months was pleading with me for emotional support over a severe onset of arthritis making driving a car a very painful activity and family wranglings in that mix that I thought I offloaded my being meshed in with back then. struth. On a lighter side, the day prior I was admiring a very rare visit from a bright green lorikeet in my yard.. only to turn my head for a few puffs and whammo the best horizontal dive bombing on the side of my face of a clear liquid as it quietly whoosed by a foot over my noggin. so much for staring at a cutie sharp shooter

I will factor in the really good information from this board and look to put a comment in the product review page in the sott forum in about a months time as I and others I know hopefully try out this turmerix product.