Session 20 June 2009
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
Laura said:
Found one. --It's the fact that it appears to be pretty much perfect and complete, but that I didn't make the journey myself. --Well, I read how you got there, but reading and experiencing are two very different things.
I think much of the journey up the mountain is about the journey, not the destination.
Standing on the shoulders of giants is all well and good, and I can certainly work to understand the universe from the perspectives of others, and in fact I attempt to do this all the time. But in end, building my own understanding of the universe is, I think, very important. It might even be the MOST important thing. --If we were all meant to share an identical perspective and experience of the world, then why are there so many different people?
Still. . , it really helps to have way-showers trail blazing ahead on the curve. As Gurdjieff explained, Escaping the Prison cannot be done without the help of those who have escaped it before. So using well-formed prayers like the one you have shared is a very helpful seedling for me to grow my own from.
The thing is, I don't think that the world is only a prison. That is Gurdjieff's perspective, and one which I respect. But the C's liken the world to a school, which is another perspective I very much appreciate. --And as most teachers can tell us, there are different learning styles, with some students benefiting from very structured learning, while others do best when they are encouraged to create their own connections and build up their own understanding of the world around them. While very structured learning has had its benefits for me, I typically do best when I am given a lot of extra room to explore on my own.
But I cannot do this, (as I have learned), without help. I have to stay in class because guidance is very important, which is why I was so taken with the notion of co-linear learning which I first learned about here. I most happily climb the mountain when I can see the other climbers, ahead or behind me, yes, but more importantly, to either side of me.
So while I think your prayer is powerful and inspiring, I can say with some confidence that using it and studying it in its finished form defeats a significant portion of (what I gather) its purpose is for me. It's going to take some work to get to where you are, no doubt, and I may even end up using a duplicate set of words, but unless I assemble them myself, I will probably not understand them properly. (And given the nature of language, I'd not be at all surprised if it says all the same things but uses altogether different words.) The interesting thing is that I've been working on exactly such a project for the last week now, nudged (and bludgeoned) into doing so by a number of events in my life, which is why when I saw this discussion today, I was moved to add my comments and observations.
--The real trick for me is in trying to separate ego and self-importance from needing to find my own way. The little predator keeps yapping away. Silly thing.
Cheers, and thank-you so much! I'd still be toiling down in the foothills without all your efforts. And again, your prayer is lovely!
clerck de bonk
Dagobah Resident
Prayer of the Soul,
do anyone have a prayer to read for/with the children at bedtime?
EDIT:
... and of course, thank You Laura for the prayer!
... and good to see You roaming the forums again Buddy :)!
do anyone have a prayer to read for/with the children at bedtime?
EDIT:
... and of course, thank You Laura for the prayer!
... and good to see You roaming the forums again Buddy :)!
Freelancer
Jedi
Laura said:
I went through it. It covers everything indeed, and it feels right.
Any addition to the prayer would just be a subset to the prayer itself, therefore unnecessary.
The question I asked is redundant, so I withdraw it.
This one is a difficult one. Von Neumann was a mathematician and was trying to axiomatize everything and make it mathematically precise. To go through this book requires a good knowledge of functional analysis. It is also an old one - from 1932. So, I suggest you see what else can you find in your library.combsbt said:
Hi Woodman
Thanks for posting your explanation because it really summed up one of my lines of thought (before I got the feedback from others). The, 'standing on the shoulders of giants' thing. RedFox mentioned it too in their response to my question when they asked if it felt like 'cheating'.
But think of it this way; not long ago, I think it was aragorn who asked, "what can I do?". Perceval replied that you don't have to be a trailblazer, but you can help people by sharing objective knowledge. And that's because objective knowledge, or objective help, helps everyone no matter who they are or what they believe.
Take the physical detox programme put together by Laura and the crew; they've been experimenting on themselves and researching the topic for a long time, and they have put together a programme that is objective in detoxing the human body. That information will work for everyone. The fact that a person didn't create the program themselves doesn't take away from its efficacy.
Also, this is taking it to extremes, but did you build the house you live in? I didn't, but I benefit from the knowledge and skill of the people who did. It's the same thing I think. And because this prayer is objective, it works the same way.
So don't worry about 'building your power centre' as the C's called it, in this instance. You can do that with other things that haven't already been finished by others.
Thanks for posting your explanation because it really summed up one of my lines of thought (before I got the feedback from others). The, 'standing on the shoulders of giants' thing. RedFox mentioned it too in their response to my question when they asked if it felt like 'cheating'.
But think of it this way; not long ago, I think it was aragorn who asked, "what can I do?". Perceval replied that you don't have to be a trailblazer, but you can help people by sharing objective knowledge. And that's because objective knowledge, or objective help, helps everyone no matter who they are or what they believe.
Take the physical detox programme put together by Laura and the crew; they've been experimenting on themselves and researching the topic for a long time, and they have put together a programme that is objective in detoxing the human body. That information will work for everyone. The fact that a person didn't create the program themselves doesn't take away from its efficacy.
Also, this is taking it to extremes, but did you build the house you live in? I didn't, but I benefit from the knowledge and skill of the people who did. It's the same thing I think. And because this prayer is objective, it works the same way.
So don't worry about 'building your power centre' as the C's called it, in this instance. You can do that with other things that haven't already been finished by others.
Woodsman said:
Keep in mind that I hadn't made the journey either when I began using this prayer back in the 80s. The only thing that was different then was the second line was slightly different. And, as the Cs said, it was powerful.
Woodsman said:
I would say that this is what the prayer is designed to help you do - and was also the intent in the original Lord's Prayer though that was phrased in archaic language that does not mean the same things today that it meant then.
Utilizing a prayer that is open allows the Universe to interact with you in the way that is exactly right for YOU and, if you will re-read Gurdjieff's description of an Esoteric Circle, you will see what is meant. Keep in mind that objective understanding is the same for everyone because it is how the Universe sees itself. There may be variations in angle and perspective, but in the end, the UNDERSTANDING is identical because a fact is a fact is a fact.
Woodsman said:
Exactly.
Woodsman said:
Neither do I.
Woodsman said:
As we have discussed, Gurdjieff didn't have the whole banana, but in terms of understanding human psychology, he was right up there at the top. As the Cs once said:
Cs said:
I suspect that this applies to some extent to Gurdjieff as well, though I suspect that toward the end, he began to realize the reality of hyperdimensional realities and their very real effect on our reality. On that point, I would suggest reading John Keel's "Operation Trojan Horse" also titled "Why UFOs".
Woodsman said:
That's one of the reasons the Wave is written the way it is. I would think that I had explained something and then a reader would write and ask a question that would let me know I hadn't, and I came at the issue from a slightly different direction. Of course, that irritated some people who wrote to me and complained that I was repeating things, did I think they were stupid and couldn't get stuff? I just answered that I was writing for a LOT of people, not just for them!
Woodsman said:
Yes, going it alone is a drag, isn't it? After all, that IS the STS method of working - contraction and shrinking even if they think that they are expanding their realm.
Woodsman said:
Well, at least at the end you partly recognize the problem - something in you is really afraid! It just wants the light turned up a tiny bit so that shadows continue to exist where it can hide.
Castandea said:
It's always fascinating to see this in action.
allen
Jedi Master
Woodsman said:
Hi Woodsman,
Maybe just try saying and contemplating the prayer rather than studying it. After all, it is a prayer, not a precise scientific description of the universe. It expresses the soul's yearning for the truth. What is there to change? What in the prayer is specific to Laura or any one person? Perhaps all of this talk about studying and needing to write your own version is nothing but your predator mind trying to talk you out of doing what your soul wants: to say and contemplate these simple words that will resonate with your soul and bring "you" more in alignment with your soul.
Evolutionary1 said:
Do you know my own story of the journey into and out of modern day Christianity? If anyone feels uncomfortable with Christianity as it is practiced, it's me! I continue to read and research ancient texts, searching for the disjecta membra of true ancient knowledge and I've found that it really is true that you don't want to toss the baby out with the bathwater! Have you read my article on Lost Christianity? It's a review and exposition on Burton Mack's The Book of Q and Christian Origins
If you have read Secret History, you will know that I have tracked many of the core ideas back to a form of ancient shamanism of the Central Siberian kind though even that was a corruption of what had existed before. My concern was to find the "religion before the Fall" (assuming there was a "fall") and to understand what is was the was behind the obviously unified and stupendous society that created the megalithic culture.
I found traces of these ancient beliefs in Christianity but what we know about it has been so corrupted by Judaism that it takes some time and care to extract the elements.
The archaeological record shows that, once upon a time, human beings lived in peace and harmony. The megalithic cultures of the British Isles, Europe, and elsewhere, shared a common culture. The megalithic civilization lasted longer than the Anglo-Saxons, the Roman Empire, and the British Empire combined. Archaeologists have pointed out that for the megalithic people to have repeatedly been mobilized en masse to work on their incredibly vast construction projects, there must have been some central authority coordinating things. Yet, from the evidence left behind, there does not seem to be any principal city or citadel. There were only individual settlements of roughly equivalent size. These settlements didn’t even have the impressive monuments built within them. The largest and most impressive megalithic structures were well away from the communities where their builders lived.
The most remarkable aspect of the megalithic culture is that it repeatedly absorbed different ethnic groups peacefully century after century. The arrival of the different groups has led archaeologists to divide the megalithic culture into three sub-phases. Throughout these periods, the same lifestyle, monument building traditions and methods endured and were repeatedly invigorated peacefully.
Megalithic settlements remained constantly small, averaging between one hundred and three hundred people. This alone is strange considering the mammoth constructions these people executed! Even in the most densely populated areas, there were concentrations of small villages rather than big towns.
Dwellings were built of timber and/or stone and were often set in pits with only the roof above ground. This was excellent insulation against both heat and cold. The megalithic people raised sheep, cattle, pigs, had domesticated dogs, and grew wheat, barley, rye, oats and beans.
At least twice, the megalithic civilization in the British Isles which, itself, originally consisted of two different ethnic groups, absorbed a mass influx of more technologically advance peoples. This brought more sophistication to their lives, but the culture endured. The settlements continued to be small and the mode of living was adopted by the newcomers. Whatever belief system existed then, it must have been widespread and/or persuasive. More than that, it was peaceful. Throughout this two thousand year period, there is no evidence of war or conflict. The very fact that the megalithic people continued to live in small, undefended villages, rather than banding together for protection, is evidence that they did not live in fear.
Additionally, though some more elaborate tombs indicate that certain individuals had a higher status in their society, there is no evidence of kings or a central government of any kind. Whatever it was that bound the megalithic people together, it does not seem to have been politics. Of course, politics and military power are not the only things that can bind people together in harmony as modern day theorists propose. There is also religion. But we know that religion can be as divisive as politics and military force. Christianity dominated the Western world only through bloodshed and intolerance. The same is true regarding Islam and Judaism and the Hindu kingdoms of India.
So, if it wasn’t politics, the sword, or religion, what was it? What was it that cemented the fabric of megalithic society?
I propose that it was knowledge of reality and how to live in harmony with that reality. And that knowledge must have included a deep understanding of hyperdimensional realities and how to live in harmony with that as well.
Another question is: what brought this almost global peace to an end?
Because, at a certain point in time, the last of the megalithic monuments was built – construction abruptly ceased. Instead, stone walls began to be built around settlements throughout the British Isles. Settlements quickly became larger, defendable forts were built throughout the megalithic world and purpose made weapons were made. The long-standing custom of interring the dead in burial mounds was suddenly abandoned in favor of cremation. Thousands of years of peace were at an end and human beings suddenly entered an age of violence that has continued to this very day.
All of these things have been on my mind a lot lately as I have tediously combed through the archaeology and hints and clues left by the ancients in myth and religions. It is in this context that the Cs announced recently:
Cs session 30 May 2009 said:
Evolutionary1 said:
That's all fine and good and we are all about individuality. In fact, Gurdjieff's description of the Esoteric Circle emphasizes individuality. But there is something about objectivity that just is what it is. Our society has been so influenced by Post Modernism and "I create my own reality" that individuality has come to mean little more than "If I wanna believe it, that makes it so." Few people stop to really consider the pathology of such a position.
In the same session quoted, the Cs also made the following remark:
Cs said:
Some further considerations about "individuality" as a twist on reality were addressed in the thread about the May 30 session, but I'll include it here since it is appropriate (again) to the discussion.
Let me try to explain with a little help from psychologist John Schumaker who wrote a nifty little book entitled "Wings of Illusion" about the human tendency to hide from reality and make up beliefs in saviors and so on.
First, let's establish what reality is. Primary reality is reality as it would present itself if only information and data was available. This is raw data with no critical or analytical thinking. It is reality that is uncorrupted by analysis and thinking. It has not been modified, translated, or otherwise distorted.
Consider the squirrel. With no bias from higher order thinking, the reality of a squirrel is stable. Things are "as they are," so to say. An acorn is always something to eat or to stick in holes. The squirrel doesn't think about why it does that, but later in the winter, it turns out to be handy that all those acorns got stuck in holes.
In the absence of any rational, analytical mechanism to misinterpret acorns, squirrels never have acorn gods and never develop acorn phobias. When another squirrel dies, decomposes and disappears, the remaining squirrels have no ability to alter the empirical data ... the dead squirrel is gone. The reality of the squirrel does not permit a squirrel heaven or happy acorn ground of an afterlife. Because of its brain design, the squirrel is prevented from interpreting empirical data which is its only access to reality.
Human beings, on the other hand, possess something that can automatically banish them from reality. Human beings, in all cultures, construct realities for themselves that are not empirical. Under the influence of pathology, these realities are irrational and false. Socrates frequently began his speeches by imploring his listeners not to be angry with him if he tells them the truth. Socrates definitely knew that falsehoods and errors envelop the human mind.
What is shocking is the astonishing human capacity to tolerate beliefs that make fools of our brains. The surprising fact about human beings is that a belief does not have to be true in order to be believed. Most of the belief systems that generations of humans have lived by and died for are in fact patently false. Yet they were held with deep conviction and fervor. Fads and fallacies, delusions and fantasies, are so numerous in human history that they constitute the very fabric of our existence. Human culture is comprised of castles in the air that are products of our imagination and yearning in the face of a cold, cruel and forbidding reality.
The universality of the distortion of reality is a reaction against pathology. Finding order and meaning in life is a powerful human drive - the drive that can lead us to deep reality, to higher spheres. Reality, after pathology moved in and took it over, became so unpleasant, that this drive for order and meaning was subverted.
At the same time, the human being is quite capable of arriving at reliable knowledge. It is within our capabilities to process incoming information in order that our mental constructions correspond to reality.
Now, let's consider personal reality.
For the squirrel, the personal reality and the primary reality overlap exactly. This is because the squirrel doesn't have the ability to translate and then re-translate incoming information.
To a human being, on the other hand, acorns can be little bombs planted by aliens, or the source of powerful magic, or just an acorn. Many options are open to human beings that are not there for the squirrel. Why do humans avail themselves of these optional interpretations? All things being equal, it is done for purposes of social, psychological and physical survival.
The reality of human beings almost never overlaps completely with primary reality. It is "interpreted" for better or worse. This is true in normal as well as abnormal individuals. These interpretations can be delusional or they can be paths to DEEP reality. DEEP REALITY may, indeed, reveal that acorns are little bombs planted by aliens or the source of powerful magic (not probable, but all possibilities have to be kept open when assessing empirical observations). But one cannot GET TO that deep reality without first being able to face Primary Reality without flinching. One MUST have data and that data must not be skewed.
Human personal reality is FULL of errors when using primary reality, raw data, as the criterion.
The question is: why do humans do this?
The probable answer is that it is a response to emotionally terrifying facets of existence in this world.
The human brain has the ability to:
1) selectively perceive its environment,
2) selectively process information,
3) selectively store memories,
4) selectively disengage from already stored memories, and
5) selectively replace dissociated data with more "user-friendly " data.
These abilities empower human beings to regulate their reality. It's like a thermostat.
So, personal reality is defined by its deviation from primary reality even if it partially overlaps. Personal reality is Empirical reality + or - whatever empirically unjustified modifications have been made.
Ernest Rossi, an Ericksonian hypnotherapist, estimated that at least 80 percent of the information contained in the human mind is false. What makes this estimate remarkable is that Rossi was referring to the vast amount of error that is accumulated not as a result of any kind of hypnosis, but just during the normal waking life of the individual.
Remember, we are not talking about an animal with insufficient brain power to get things right. We are dealing with the creature with the most highly developed cerebral cortex known. Despite our cerebral talents, the mental world of the human being is most often at odds with the true nature of things. Not only that, but we will fight to preserve what is false. We are able to do this while, at the same time, apprehending SOME areas of our reality with astonishing precision!
Whatever the actual extent of our cognitive errors, we need to remember that the generation of these errors is a result of complex cerebral processes that work to safeguard the integrity of the entire nervous system. We aren't doing this "on purpose," so to say.
Next, there is the Cultural Reality. The reality of the individual is, to a great extent, the result of constructions that are fabricated and propagated by culture. Cultural reality is the constellation of externally delivered suggestions that are normalized on the basis of group endorsement.
One central function of any workable culture is to offer mental constructions of reality that are erroneous in relation to empirical reality. Culture is the central bank of cognitive distortion. Ernest Becker described culture as a "macro-lie".
Mental health is assessed by psychologists and psychiatrists as a person's ability to "perceive reality accurately." And, of course, they mean the socially accepted reality! In short, a considerable amount of insanity, in the sense of being out of touch with reality, is requisite to be diagnosed as mentally healthy! (This tells us a lot about the pathological state of psychology and psychiatry.)
Scholars throughout the ages have described empirical reality in terms so noxious that humans must somehow defend themselves from it. The average humans' distaste for the facts of life has been recorded since writing began.
Over the past decades, researchers have tested hypotheses that people do generate transformations or distortions of reality prophylactically. The results of these studies all point to the remarkably consistent tendencies of all human beings to self-deception, illusion and other biases about reality.
In short, it seems that reality is "too strong" for most humans to tolerate.
Several studies dealt with the "illusion of self-control". That is, the illusion that individuals possess environmental or situational control that they do not have in actuality. Several experiments have shown that the illusion of control is inversely related to depression. That is, depressed people are less adept than nondepressed people at generating such illusions. This particular category of illusion appears to insulate people from depression. One can reduce depression by imposing on reality "alterations" that are illusory.
Studies of self-consciousness, or self-insight and self-awareness show that people who rate high in these aspects are less inclined to resort to denial and self-deception. As it turns out, this self-consciousness correlates with negative emotional states. Increasing the apprehension of reality, both internal and external, can precipitate negative emotional responses.
The problem with reality is that it makes no sense. Terror is the normal emotional state for someone in full view and bearing the full psychic brunt of reality.
So, obviously, the ability to create and believe in illusions can make a person more functional.
But, here's the problem. When psychopaths use the human tendency - ability to dissociate to make them believe in illusions that are beneficial to the psychopaths - it always and inevitably is to the detriment of the person engaged in the illusion.
We are unquestionably creatures of genius, but we are engaged in actions, as a society, of such stupidity that our own survival is in jeopardy.
The question is, can we wake up in time?
Can we figure out what really works and the scientific basis of that practice? Can we marry science to mysticism?
That is the perspective of the Cs: PRIMARY REALITY combined with DEEP REALITY.
It takes some getting used to.
Evolutionary1 said:
It can also be an effect of pathological Post Modernist thinking. Two very useful books on this topic are Ernest Gellner's "The Psychotherapeutic Movement" and "Postemodernism, Reason and Religion." On the topic of how pathology has spearheaded the ideas that we all create our own reality, have a look at Psychopath Humanoids - Beyond Insanity.
Evolutionary1 said:
As the Cs said, again from the May 30 session:
Cs Session said:
I already mentioned John Keel's book "Operation Trojan Horse" - a useful read at this point for everyone. Just remember that STS/entropic forces are the source of division and confusion. Remember the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel... it wasn't a "good" god that created that confusion despite the perspective of Judaism which is a distillation of patrism which is anti-female and advocates the torture of children. Those are also core characteristics of psychopathology.
We need to identify all the threads and tendrils of pathology that wind their way through our thinking, strangling and twisting and distorting our vision and our emotions. It's difficult because it's been a part of our Western culture for over 2000 years. We cut our teeth on those ideas and it's hard to get outside of them. But it can be done. We can open our eyes and see, open our ears and hear, and have our hearts cleansed so that we can truly love and BE individuals who all see the same Truth.
Gimpy
The Living Force
Burma Jones said:
That's what I've been thinking, but not able to write out very well. :D
Doing the breathing for "Ba", "Ha" gently can make me very dizzy, even going at a careful pace to avoid hyperventilating. Reading the prayer gives direction at the end of the exercise. The result? A more even keel emotionally, and a better sense of what's 'actual', and what is just crap clogging the machinery.
This is an invaluable help in dealing with fractured thinking: it lays bare the fear of 'losing one's self' that the predator likes to slap you with. I think its one of the main fears it uses, that in opening yourself to the Universal Mind, you will be subsumed and cease to exist, which makes clear the lack of understanding of sharing or cooperating, colinearity that sustains the Universe and All.
The predator has a great fear of the unknown, and it does not like this kind of Openness to All that Is.
That's enough right there to encourage me to go with the flow, because the more the internal predator is freaked out, the clearer its seen.
Does this make sense to anyone?
StrangeCaptain
Jedi Council Member
Laura said:
For me and maybe others, part of the "getting used to" is that the open nature of "PRIMARY REALITY combined with DEEP REALITY" is at direct odds with the cultural lies I choose to believe to buffer myself from the terror of primary reality on earth at this moment. My buffers want to create a seamless explanation of reality that excludes the terror of the unknown and of an open future and of having to make real decisions.
But why then is terror associated with an open universe? Does not an open universe seem rather more interesting than a universe that has had all of the joy squeezed out of it by some religious interpretation? The answer comes back to the narcissistic wounding we all carry. It would have us view the world as an adversary with whom we must fight in order to extract that which fulfills our needs and view our loved ones as enemies whom we must manipulate or serve or force in order to safeguard our sources of nurturing.
I wonder what it is like to really live?
As for Laura's prayer, it is beautiful. I posted my little quick adaption of the Lord's prayer because I needed a practice and quick and I did not know Laura would contribute her's. I like it a lot. It was remarkably easy to memorize. As far as I am concerned, why re-invent the wheel? Her verses are very nicely adapted to the breaths that one takes during the practice, and her verses are beautifully open. Maybe, a gentle piece of art like her prayer for the soul is exactly the gentle introduction to an open universe that can slip past all my buffers and talk to that little tiny atrophied thing in me that could be a soul.
[quote author=Castaneda]
"A sad day indeed! That's the day when you have to rely on your own devices, which are nearly zero. There's no one to tell you what to do. There's no mind of foreign origin to dictate the imbecilities you're accustomed to."
"My teacher, the nagual Julian, used to warn all his disciples," don Juan continued, "that this was the toughest day in a sorcerer's life, for the real mind that belongs to us, the sum total of our experience, after a lifetime of domination has been rendered shy, insecure, and shifty. Personally, I would say that the real battle of sorcerers begins at that moment. The rest is merely preparation."
[/quote]
After just 3 days, I find this prayer for the soul practice to be rather intense. Then again, I have recently begun a terribly familiar old habit of shooting myself in the foot. I think the little wave some have discussed on this thread and in this most recent transcript almost knocked me off the edge, and I am hoping that I can ride it in the other direction.
It seems to me that my finest days are always the days that I really try to listen to others. I don't mean believe or trust everything I hear but listening all of the same. Thus, I really like seeing "clear my ears that I may hear" in the prayer, and one thing I have been missing in my life for about 4 weeks is listening.
Anyway... Thanks all for the discussion.
