Post-imperialism-A-Template-for-a-New-Social-Order

I read this article earlier today

http://www.sott.net/article/313787-Post-imperialism-A-Template-for-a-New-Social-Order

I thought it was interesting, though I don't think the post imperial world will look like described in the article above. The reasons being

- There is likely to be more than 1 model in operation. People will form models based on cultural identification, geography amongst others. There is no reason to think a community in asia pacific will look like one in northern Europe.
- The world will be opposed to centralised power. Centralised power means a relatively few have power over a great majority... the majority can be easily swung to rebel. This is why the PTB spend a great deal of money, manipulation and energy maintaining control.
- Psychopathy won't be that well-known, let alone easily identifiable. I think this is so because the term 'psychopath' is based on our language and conception of reality... no one is to say someone in china for example will have the same view... they might describe it completely different and see it different.
- Technology and survival will act as real constraints.

etc.

The power to define the world that will emerge will not lie with those who benefited from the world that came to pass. This is my fundamental thought. All of us here have benefited so that puts us out of the equation. The world that will come to pass will probably take us down with it + those who were oppressed by this world (who will probably be in the majority) will not listen to those who benefited from the world that came to pass (who will be in a minority).

One part of the article didn't go down to well.. it's minor

Q: Is there any sport in post-imperialism?

A: Yes, but it is exclusively a leisure activity. No money is involved, no community 'points' can be earned. The cultural norms lessen the competitive dimension of community life and reinforce the cooperative/leisure/health aspects. Sport activities are mostly conducted at a community level.
'Modern sport' have nothing to do with sport, fun or sharing anymore. These are highly mediatized and professionalized activities ruled by individualism, competition and money. In addition to promoting those destructive values in our minds, their permament media coverage constitutes a major diversion from what really matters.

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I think the importance of sport cannot be understated. The bonding aspect of it is fundamental. People will naturally come together, form teams, form competitions, others will watch... they will form organisations... it'll become more and more professional, people will do it as a living, business models will form that turns it into an enterprise capable of generating self-sustaining funds. Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport. When someone says, it's a diversion from what really matters.... someone else somewhere will say.... says who? you aren't forced to partake if you don't like it... but if you act to quash it from becoming what it'll naturally become... all of a sudden... you find yourself as the oppressor others will seek to overcome.

Sport is more than just a leisure activity... thousands of years attest to that.

Anyways, SOL did a video on the perfect country


https://youtu.be/shanIOl7MyE

I thought it was a good article, it brought together a lot of ideas that had been swirling in my head over the years in a concise and cogent manner. I think it is a pretty good template. The only thing I questioned was the prostitution aspect, but I guess it is better to have it going on in a government regulated facility that would generate some tax revenue rather than out on the streets with undercover hookers, since it is probably going to happen anyway.

I also think the points that you brought up are valid, I don't see how such a thing could reasonably be instituted if we are to experience a collapse powerful enough to implode the NWO and send the PTB hurtling into the abyss. The world would be reduced to a Mad Max subsistence level with all manner of people running in all sorts of different directions, and you are tasked with creating some sort of order out of that chaos. The only way I can see this future being avoided is if the collapse is intelligently directed by some cosmic intelligence so that things proceed only in very precise and targeted directions, even getting down to the universe handpicking those that "carry the light," so to speak. Now it just so happens that perhaps this is precisely what the Wave was designed to do and the Cassiopaeans seem to have hinted in that direction, but I'm not holding my breath anymore. 200 conscious beings could change the fate of the world, is it really doable? I guess it comes down to the rule of non-anticipation, just focus on the what and let the universe take care of the how. If you are there to transduce truth/love into the reality, maybe some sort of assistance meets you halfway.

Luke Wilson said:

I think the importance of sport cannot be understated. The bonding aspect of it is fundamental. People will naturally come together, form teams, form competitions, others will watch... they will form organisations... it'll become more and more professional, people will do it as a living, business models will form that turns it into an enterprise capable of generating self-sustaining funds. Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport. When someone says, it's a diversion from what really matters.... someone else somewhere will say.... says who? you aren't forced to partake if you don't like it... but if you act to quash it from becoming what it'll naturally become... all of a sudden... you find yourself as the oppressor others will seek to overcome.

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Personally, I never saw the point of chasing a ball around and viewed team sports as rather boring. As a result, I was never a person you wanted on your team, which made me hate it even more when I was forced to play as a kid. I understand why some people do it and some have made some great friendships over it, but I could never really get into the mindset, it just seemed pointless. I've enjoyed other things like inner tubing, rafting, hiking and cycling, bowling, and even dodge ball on occasion, but only once in awhile and was never much of a track and field type. A world without organized sports is perfectly acceptable to me, even desirable. I don't really see any problem with having a "competition week" once per year where various communities could get together ad-hoc and have a mini-Olympics show off their skills, blow off some steam, kind of like jousting tournaments in the Middle Ages for those who are interested in those things, but any more than that and I really do think it becomes a distraction. You could also have craft competitions to see who could build the best products or the most efficient designs, this might contribute to the overall betterment of society, but the point is competition should be limited since the model is toward cooperation. Competitions are just to blow off steam and perhaps channel a little excess creative energy into something that might turn out benefitting everyone.

luke wilson said:

I read this article earlier today

http://www.sott.net/article/313787-Post-imperialism-A-Template-for-a-New-Social-Order

I thought it was interesting, though I don't think the post imperial world will look like described in the article above. The reasons being

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I think it depends on how you look at it. You seem to be coming at it from the POV of 'what will happen', as in things will develop organically, but that wasn't really the underlying concept behind the idea. It was more in line of what way the world would and could be shaped from an ideal perspective. For sure, that may not work on 3D earth, but it might elsewhere where there is more scope for conscious shaping of a society.

As the video you posted points out, sketching utopias is a way to identify current problems and ways to solve them. It encourages people to think and contrast the ideal with what we have now, all the better to bring the current problems into sharp focus and, ideally, facilitate a choice in people, if only in their minds.

I thought the article, which I read yesterday and have been thinking about since, was a really great wish list. Although it's just one possible model/template. There can be many. I think it's just about impossible to say what kind of world will be possible after the fall/collapse of this one (or the transition period or what the final blow is that starts the collapse for real, etc.).

One thing I am almost certain about is that this world cannot continue in its current form, as certain as one can be about anything, really. Because no one did and no one is doing anything to make that possible (this world as we know it continuing), which is overall a good thing, so what can't be sustained/continued, won't be. We've discussed that from many different angles here on the forum before over the years, and I'm as sure as I can be, that the world as we know it will not be around for much longer (being sure of anything is never 100% for me, but some things, like this, approach it - say 99%).

The thing I liked about the article is that it covered pretty much most or all of the issues that would be involved in having ideas about/defining broad values about what would be crucial improvements over the dying sick world (expanding on discussions we've had before on the forum and covering more categories), but without getting into the "nitty-gritty" small details of how it would all be administered. It was just a very good broad outline. Plus many things would have to be tried and tweeked as needed, after real life experience in each particular area/geography, etc.

But, again, this is just one model/template that may be impossible, for example, because the post-imperialist world may not allow many of the things discussed (or at least not everywhere). Some examples being certain technologies such as electricity, running water and sewer systems, etc. not being available for the foreseeable future (after a complete civilizational/societal collapse), etc.

Everyone has biases and preferences as to what the world should or could look like that follows the passing of this one. My preference would be living as a hunter-gather ideally (just as a preference, not that I'd necessarily be able to personally succeed in that mode). I think that comes closest to being able to set up very small societies that approach being service-to-others. Whatever I've learned about hunter-gatherers points to the best physical and mental/emotional health, the most leisure time to develop deep and healthy social ties and for personal development, groups small enough (around 50 to 60 people, give or take, in an average camp) to prevent pathological hierarchies from forming, etc. Plus, such a radical difference in attitude toward possessions, land ownership (practically unthinkable), "traveling light", so to speak, and the core values of the groups, that it seems exactly the opposite of the settled and agricultural societies and all their problems. Centrally, the state of mind of hunter-gatherers is to work with and take only what is readily available from Mother Nature - what she provides rather than forcing her to yield what is wanted (and "owning" her or large parts of her, etc.).

But, I don't know if going back to being hunter-gatherers will be possible either. There's the problem of wild animals that would be staples of food supplies no longer being widely available (from the mega fauna that went extinct around the end of the last ice age such as mastadons, wooly mammoths, and the like, to wild bison/buffalo, etc. that used to cover huge areas of continents, to the disastrous condition our oceans and other bodies of water are in). But then, depending on what the actual conditions are in the coming world, some may be forced to become hunter-gathers again, not by choice.

Again, there are also many different kinds of hunter-gatherer societies, depending on local climate, geography, etc. One thing's for sure, once settled, agricultural societies developed, they eradicated the hunter-gathers until there are very few left that adapted to some way of still surviving in areas that are far away and inhospitable to settled societies, and they still seem to be under enormous pressure from the settled societies. It's as if the settled societies just can't tolerate hunter-gatherers even if there's no competition for resources, etc.

Everything has positive and negative sides, though. Some things I really appreciate and value that are pretty much non-existent in hunter-gather societies is advanced maths and similar knowledge. The thing is, there are so many things coming to a head in the form of earth changes/climate change (quite probably the next ice age or another mini-ice age) and cosmic phenomena such as comets and other space objects increasing/fire balls and comet dust increasing in our atmosphere, the sink hole craziness, earthquakes/seismic/volcanic upheaval, and on and on... who knows what the world will look like in the not-too-distant future?

Anyway, it's fascinating to think about, and I'm looking forward to others' views and ideas.

ADDED: Just saw your reply, Joe.

The world as we know it won't be around forever, 100% certainty. Sadly from our human perspective, we are constrained by time due to our mortality. 'Soon' can be 5 years from now, it can be 50 years from now or even 500. In short, it can be beyond our lifetime.

I'm gobsmacked by how much 'abuse' the world and everything in it can take, day after day, month after month, year after year, for decades if not longer and still maintain its integrity i.e. not collapse. The environment is being destroyed by industry and the war machine plus even over population to such levels that it's staggering. People and animals are living under such levels of oppression that it's beyond imagining. The level of irresponsibility humanity as a whole shows towards whatever duty is given to it is absolutely off the scales. Yet despite all these, things are pretty much as good as they can be... given the levels of abuse and irresponsibility going on. It's mind shattering. Its almost as if there is no universal concept of accountability.

The criminals rein absolutely supreme, the abusers are at the apex... All that is good and proper is at the bottom, getting well and truly raped. What is going on? It's like there is no sense of sanity. It's like these concepts don't actually exist. Lies rein supreme, truth is like a rare stone hard to find.

It's absolutely crazy/bonkers... It's almost like the sense we have of morality, of saneness, of i don't know, good/evil don't actually exist objectively in terms of determining some sort of feedback loop to nature i.e. It's almost like nature just doesn't give a damn.. Nature, God, the spirit whatever you want to think of it as... It's almost like it doesn't care. Plus some people have figured this out and decided that they can get together, unite under the umbrella of essentially living to their lowest drives and you know what... they'd be at the apex and live like emperors all day everyday.

So, i don't know why the post imperial world would be any different to this. I see no reason why it would be. Even in 4D what is to stop this same thing from happening again? Just because you can mold things with your mind and have more awareness? Well, newsflash.... the lizzies live in 4D... They are more technologically advanced than we are... They own this real estate... They are pure evil... They know that place better than we know it... There is nothing to stop them from simply terrorizing us and having us as their slaves... There is no reason why the universe wouldn't let that happen. In short... we are screwed here in 3D and will probably also be screwed over there in 4D. There is no reason to think otherwise... Bad people have way more power and pretty much next to zero restraints. I doubt we'd be getting inducted into some STO confederation on like day 1 in 4D. Lizzies and the STS forces will probably be the ones we have to contend with for a long long while. There is no reason to think they'd leave us alone just because you are in 4D. Its like saying the US will leave Syria alone just because Syria is filled up with human beings...

I think this article is a great step in the right direction. After all, 'creating a new world' could occur at any time, so it's good to have this information handy. Thank you.

So, i don't know why the post imperial world would be any different to this. I see no reason why it would be. Even in 4D what is to stop this same thing from happening again? Just because you can mold things with your mind and have more awareness? Well, newsflash.... the lizzies live in 4D... They are more technologically advanced than we are... They own this real estate... They are pure evil... They know that place better than we know it... There is nothing to stop them from simply terrorizing us and having us as their slaves... There is no reason why the universe wouldn't let that happen. In short... we are screwed here in 3D and will probably also be screwed over there in 4D. There is no reason to think otherwise... Bad people have way more power and pretty much next to zero restraints. I doubt we'd be getting inducted into some STO confederation on like day 1 in 4D. Lizzies and the STS forces will probably be the ones we have to contend with for a long long while. There is no reason to think they'd leave us alone just because you are in 4D. Its like saying the US will leave Syria alone just because Syria is filled up with human beings...

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I may be reading you wrong, but what I hear you saying in the above luke is 'life is a nightmare and there's darn well nothing we can do about it'. I recognize that because I feel a lot of that too, on a daily basis. If I'm correct, I agree with you on the emotional level - that life is a nightmare. But does that mean there is nothing of value in our struggle to create something better? Or does that actually enhance the meaning of our efforts? To me the answer is a no-brainer - of course it enhances it. The challenge in and of itself is the reward - not the 'pay-off' of a blissful future that, as you point out, probably doesn't exist. Obviously what is coming could be pretty darn cataclysmic, what follows could be even worse, and we can't predict what will really happen. But using our noggins to critically analyze how things could be, and doing our best to shape them in a positive way, is part of the challenge, I think. It's like Putin is quoted as saying:

Everything will probably never be OK. But we have to try for it.

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luke wilson said:

So, i don't know why the post imperial world would be any different to this. I see no reason why it would be. Even in 4D what is to stop this same thing from happening again? Just because you can mold things with your mind and have more awareness? Well, newsflash.... the lizzies live in 4D... They are more technologically advanced than we are... They own this real estate... They are pure evil... They know that place better than we know it... There is nothing to stop them from simply terrorizing us and having us as their slaves... There is no reason why the universe wouldn't let that happen. In short... we are screwed here in 3D and will probably also be screwed over there in 4D. There is no reason to think otherwise... Bad people have way more power and pretty much next to zero restraints. I doubt we'd be getting inducted into some STO confederation on like day 1 in 4D. Lizzies and the STS forces will probably be the ones we have to contend with for a long long while. There is no reason to think they'd leave us alone just because you are in 4D. Its like saying the US will leave Syria alone just because Syria is filled up with human beings...

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You sound so sure with all the "no reasons". The Cs have said 4D is a "level playing field" and that all sides would be in direct contact with each other, i.e. no ability for them to do there what they do here. Consider how easy it is for humans to manipulate animals. Now think how difficult it would be for humans to manipulate other humans in the same way.

Well, I'm scared/terrified because lizzies' are not nice! Here in 3D, they terrorize us indirectly using psychopaths and their machinations... there in 4D, they'll probably just do it directly. We might on a level playing field but that won't still mean that we are not subject to their terrorism. Here in 3D, all humans have similar awareness levels by virtue of occupying the same density level, yet, that is not enough to stop the Palestinians from being hounded by the Israelis, or the natives from being virtually wiped out back in the day, or Libya from being flattened and turned into a terrorist hotbed... What's to say the wave will not pick us from the frying pan and put us straight into the fire? Unless some people think they can match up against the lizzies and their type? It's nice and all praying and hoping for warm fuzzy days out there in the horizon, if we all be nice and dedicated human beings but our world has pretty much shown us those notions translate to diddly squat... Maybe in the afterlife you are rewarded but here, no sir....

If you are unlucky enough to come up against the crazies of this world /universe, you are in trouble! Us here in the forum are lucky... Most live relatively comfortably in western countries... None of us are in Syria, Libya or currently being abused by a pedo politician or priest... We are lucky! We are on the right side of empire. We are romans, not the barbarians being terrorised by the Roman legions... In 4D, we are unlikely to be Romans... We'll be on the wrong side of empire. After everything we've heard about these lizzies, how can anyone in their right mind think these creatures won't set upon us from the get-go and that we stand next to zero chance, level playing field or not. What miracles are to befall us?

I'm sorry to be such a downer... :(

luke wilson said:

Well, I'm scared/terrified because lizzies' are not nice! Here in 3D, they terrorize us indirectly using psychopaths and their machinations... there in 4D, they'll probably just do it directly. We might on a level playing field but that won't still mean that we are not subject to their terrorism. Here in 3D, all humans have similar awareness levels by virtue of occupying the same density level, yet, that is not enough to stop the Palestinians from being hounded by the Israelis, or the natives from being virtually wiped out back in the day, or Libya from being flattened and turned into a terrorist hotbed... What's to say the wave will not pick us from the frying pan and put us straight into the fire? Unless some people think they can match up against the lizzies and their type? It's nice and all praying and hoping for warm fuzzy days out there in the horizon, if we all be nice and dedicated human beings but our world has pretty much shown us those notions translate to diddly squat... Maybe in the afterlife you are rewarded but here, no sir....

If you are unlucky enough to come up against the crazies of this world /universe, you are in trouble! Us here in the forum are lucky... Most live relatively comfortably in western countries... None of us are in Syria, Libya or currently being abused by a pedo politician or priest... We are lucky! We are on the right side of empire. We are romans, not the barbarians being terrorised by the Roman legions... In 4D, we are unlikely to be Romans... We'll be on the wrong side of empire. After everything we've heard about these lizzies, how can anyone in their right mind think these creatures won't set upon us from the get-go and that we stand next to zero chance, level playing field or not. What miracles are to befall us?

I'm sorry to be such a downer... :(

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Well, if the idea is progression or evolution, then the fact that we are in the positions we are in now, born of awareness and knowledge, might indicate that we are not going to lose that protection. On the contrary, 4D might afford us even more protection because of the greater ability to utilize that knowledge/awareness in a more direct and tangible way than in 3D. The people on this planet who you describe as being subject to the predations of others are in that position for a specific reason: to learn. They lose nothing in the broad sense and always gain something: knowledge.

Think about he likelihood that, before you are who you are now, you were one of those predators, pillaging and plundering, at another time you were pillaged and plundered. If all existence is basically a school to learn lessons, then there is nothing to fear, and there is no fear that you will be eternally damned to being persecuted by anyone. From your soul's POV, you might be more concerned about being eternally condemned to being a pillager and plunderer of others than the other way around!

Also, I think it's a problem to try and apply 3D conditions to 4D. The Cs have repeatedly said that the conditions will be so different that we are basically unable to even conceptualize some of them from our 3D perspective.

[quote author= Luke Wilson]I think the importance of sport cannot be understated. The bonding aspect of it is fundamental. People will naturally come together, form teams, form competitions, others will watch... they will form organisations...[/quote]

But what kind of bonding aspect? As I see it, those people mainly cooperate for their desire to win. I suppose lessons could partake in that process. But in the end I rather see people Unite and bond in spirit through conscience and by that against pathology/entropy.

Sport fanaticism I think is comparably to nationalism. It’s a perversion of self-expression. It’s obsessive and dominant and made appear like it’s the only way to adore and love it.

Competing in a healthy way should be promoted. International football players are paid + millions yet plenty are not even capable of behaving themselves on the field.

Football reaches billions. Has it ever done more than their FIFA slogan, ''say no to racism'' ? If it truly stands for something how about forming a real stance and go against US/Israel imperialism. Football players are made out as heroes. What kind of heroic acts did they ever do?


[quote author= Luke Wilson]Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport.[/quote]

But millions ? Money can be translated into energy. Clearly to much of our energy (Humanity) ends up in sports and games. If it keeps us from seeing reality it only serves as a distraction. Bread and circuses I would say.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]you aren't forced to partake if you don't like it[/quote]

I think we have to differentiate between obsession and being competitive healthy. But just like with almost everything. Our society only seems to enjoy something when turned into an full blown obsession.

[quote author= Luke Wilson]Well, I'm scared/terrified because lizzies' are not nice! Here in 3D, they terrorize us indirectly using psychopaths and their machinations... there in 4D, they'll probably just do it directly. We might on a level playing field but that won't still mean that we are not subject to their terrorism.[/quote]

From mine current understanding 4D confrontation/ ''battles'' are not like 3D. Physicality shouldn’t play any part. Probably I think the only possible way to control us is through our ''choosing''/ deception.
( Mind battle ) Any unresolved trauma or lack of self-knowledge would certainly be turned against us in ways that could turn us mad and/or or even lose STO polarity.

To fight back we only have to refuse what they are trying to give, which is enslavement. If you do just that, it should be simply a matter of ''time'' before they run out of energy which is spend on trying to deceive us. And when they run out. Creation wins. Entropy loses big time. Balance restored on planet Earth.

Aka Hope and Glory for the Universe ( as the C’s said )



[quote author= Neil]The only way I can see this future being avoided is if the collapse is intelligently directed by some cosmic intelligence so that things proceed only in very precise and targeted directions, even getting down to the universe handpicking those that "carry the light," so to speak. Now it just so happens that perhaps this is precisely what the Wave was designed to do and the Cassiopaeans seem to have hinted in that direction.[/quote]

Looking at history, in some occasion’s civilizations follow the path of creativity. But its more the exception than the rule. Without 4STS influence all this may chance. Especially with 4STO taking control. Networks like this should rule the planet. It’s the only way to protect everyone. Like you said, the Cassiopaeans hinted at that. The Wave presents this opportunity. Our Gods will not rule forever.

SeekinTruth said:

I thought the article, which I read yesterday and have been thinking about since, was a really great wish list. Although it's just one possible model/template. There can be many. I think it's just about impossible to say what kind of world will be possible after the fall/collapse of this one (or the transition period or what the final blow is that starts the collapse for real, etc.).

One thing I am almost certain about is that this world cannot continue in its current form, as certain as one can be about anything, really. Because no one did and no one is doing anything to make that possible (this world as we know it continuing), which is overall a good thing, so what can't be sustained/continued, won't be. We've discussed that from many different angles here on the forum before over the years, and I'm as sure as I can be, that the world as we know it will not be around for much longer (being sure of anything is never 100% for me, but some things, like this, approach it - say 99%).

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I really enjoyed reading the well thought article too - and I think its a good reflection about the ways we can organize society for the better if given a chance.

With regards to the future similarly I think the world as we know is going to end soon; as the Cs mentioned "it will be soon now" - and we really have to be mentally prepared for a future where everything we hold dear or are used will not exist. Im not too optimistic, and I think it could be similar situations to movies like Mad Max or The Road; where its going to be grim for the survivors, and psychopathy still rears its very ugly head. It seems to be a systemic construct of the Matrix, that even with the "cleansing" and the horrors of many deaths the virus still survives and we have to contend with it. I can only hope that the survivors post cataclysm have a better understanding of psychopathy and use effective measures to contain it.

Another thing the article reminded me about - is that we are now at that point where change is imminent - and mentally & emotionally "prepping" for a different future is good practice. Maybe Putin's honorouble actions did buy us time on a different timeline - but it looks like lately the Universe is slowly changing gears and responding rapidly - I guess thinking of ways to organize society better is also part of aligning ourselves with these changes.

Joe said:

Well, if the idea is progression or evolution, then the fact that we are in the positions we are in now, born of awareness and knowledge, might indicate that we are not going to lose that protection. On the contrary, 4D might afford us even more protection because of the greater ability to utilize that knowledge/awareness in a more direct and tangible way than in 3D. The people on this planet who you describe as being subject to the predations of others are in that position for a specific reason: to learn. They lose nothing in the broad sense and always gain something: knowledge.

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Thanks Joe for your insights, I had similar thoughts too. I don't think its a coincidence that we are here discussing these topics with awareness and knowledge - there must be a reason, karmic or otherwise; this also could be a form of protection, and we may have to be using it in a 3D post-cataclysmic world or in 4D. Im not sure, and I guess one way or the other we will find out soon.

luke wilson said:

I think the importance of sport cannot be understated. The bonding aspect of it is fundamental. People will naturally come together, form teams, form competitions, others will watch... they will form organisations... it'll become more and more professional, people will do it as a living, business models will form that turns it into an enterprise capable of generating self-sustaining funds. Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport. When someone says, it's a diversion from what really matters.... someone else somewhere will say.... says who? you aren't forced to partake if you don't like it... but if you act to quash it from becoming what it'll naturally become... all of a sudden... you find yourself as the oppressor others will seek to overcome.

Sport is more than just a leisure activity... thousands of years attest to that.

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I think maybe you missed the point that Pierre was making. The reason sport should be strictly a leisure activity is because once it becomes "corporatized" and turned into a business model used to profit from, it changes the whole dynamic, the whole purpose of engaging in the act. It then can be taken over by pathological types and the whole purpose for engaging in sport as a leisure activity - for enjoyment - becomes second to turning it into capital. I don't understand why you say "Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport". Why? You say it will "naturally" become an income-generating activity. I'd say there is nothing natural about that, that the reason sport has evolved that way is because of a willful transformation of sport by humans. There is nothing natural about that. The idea Pierre is making is not about "quashing" anything (that seems like a rather twisted, pejorative take on the idea), it's about getting back to a more human, humane mode of sport instead of what it has become. What it has become is an activity bereft of heart, of cooperation, of camaraderie, of fairness, and of true "play". What do we see now? We see basketball players throwing punches on the court and even going into the stands fighting with fans (See: Malice at the Palace), we see soccer refs fearing for their lives on the pitch, we see baseball and hockey players fighting each other in the game and that act being glorified and allowed. We see people putting their teammates through cruel and horrific hazing rituals. That is the situation which you are arguing for. And for the life of me I can't understand how or why you would feel that way.

Neil said:

Luke Wilson said:

I think the importance of sport cannot be understated. The bonding aspect of it is fundamental. People will naturally come together, form teams, form competitions, others will watch... they will form organisations... it'll become more and more professional, people will do it as a living, business models will form that turns it into an enterprise capable of generating self-sustaining funds. Athletes should be allowed to make a living through sport. When someone says, it's a diversion from what really matters.... someone else somewhere will say.... says who? you aren't forced to partake if you don't like it... but if you act to quash it from becoming what it'll naturally become... all of a sudden... you find yourself as the oppressor others will seek to overcome.

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Personally, I never saw the point of chasing a ball around and viewed team sports as rather boring.

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Same here. I wouldn't stop other people from spontaneously forming teams and playing some kind of sport. In fact, immediately after collapse, people might do something like that just to burn off steam, aggression, work-breaks or whatnot. But as far as worrying about the professional aspect, I think it would be way too early into post-imperialism to be worrying about that. There will too much else to do. Besides, the only thing needed to take the money motive out of sports is for people not to pay to go see what they could see for free in their own communities by people we all work and play side-by-side with, if that's what they wanna do.

I don't have a problem with the article. I think it could accomplish the modest goal as Pierre stated, if people all over the world started thinking and talking about it now. Everything might even evolve into something totally different, who knows, but wouldn't it be a tremendous relief just to have survived the Imperialist melt-down and wouldn't it be incredible to have a part in re-making civilization without the fears and stresses we currently live under?

I think that team-sport can help children see in a fun way what can be achieved by working together. Also, in some rough neighborhoods sport can help kids not to go astray. Community centers offer positive activities where negative activities flourish (Crime. Drugs etc) I think that sport in many ways can serve positive purposes and many learning opportunities.

But it’s important that it does not let itself get hijacked by what they call ''passion'' which justifies unhealthy competitiveness. Or to pretends it’s more than it is. Chasing a ball shouldn’t make you millionaire. Nor should you get worshiped by it. The world needs better heroes.

Thanks for explaining regarding sports. Just like modern business, governance and pretty much all activities in the human sphere including art, pathological types have twisted them. For some reason though sport seems to be getting a very bad rep. Personally, I have no problem with a top athlete earning as much as a top businessman, artist or leader of men. Whatever ceiling you set as acceptable in society, it should should also be open to sports people.

All these modern athletes who earn obscene money e.g. Roger Federer, Usain Bolt, Lionel Messi amongst others do so because they inspire millions if not billions. They tap into awe and wander, into what people are physically capable off. When you watch some of the best teams play e.g. Barcelona and see how people can work together, fight for each other, go beyond themselves, reach levels of talent that is not cgi... It's inspiring, it brings people together. When you see athletes transcend sport and become social pioneers, again inspirational. I don't see why these people should not be considered heroes really.

Sport is more than just a leisure activity. At the very pinnacle it's something completely different. Sport is as important to society as art, science and all the rest of it.

It's ok to agree to disagree. Plus anyways, just like most cultural stuff, the level I'm talking about only comes into play when society reaches a certain level.