Post-imperialism-A-Template-for-a-New-Social-Order

Personally I went off sport once it changed from being true school teams, village teams playing a fun and healthy sport to teams incorporating 'transfers' - meaning that no longer did the people originate from the original area. The altruism was then lost. Then - in my lifetime - I witness the awful transformation into corporate ownership/sponsors and big advertising/salaries. I total ponerology - purely for profit and gambling.

I recall when my father was a PE instructor in Germany. Sport was fun then. I used to enjoy watching and travelling to different schools with the teams. I too joined in the swimming/diving. My favourite part was the singing and joking on the buses whilst travelling, the camaraderie. It was more about the teamwork and about being 'ambassadors' for the school/area etc.

Since TV took over - to make yet more profit - people don't even leave their living rooms to enjoy sport. There is no outdoors or nature involved any more. As we can see from the awful sports bars and obese people!

I also remember when the naval vessels used to come into harbour - which was located alongside our school. How the pupils were invited onto the vessels, then the crew used to play friendly cricket and other sports with the school - together with the quintessentially british tea with the cucumber sandwiches etc! All was so very civilized, friendly and all about sharing and co-operation. A far cry from what is deemed sport today.

It has also become mainly a spectator event sadly. Fewer people participate in any kind of fun, team-building kind of sport activity - even a nature ramble! For me I cannot see any point in just watching a screen - I think to myself the time wasted would be far more enjoyable and beneficial in either learning the sport or getting outside and doing something more constructive. No matter how amateurish I would be in any sport.

Again the creative team-building idea of sport whereby people are tasked with creating something that can be utilized, and then perfected is far more productive and useful as a bonding tool. So too the intellectual group outdoor team tasks whereby people have to learn to orienteer, hunt, get themselves out of a situation, or plan and build a means of getting from A to B over a river or similar. If you get my drift.

Sport has become too obsessional and the opposite of co-operation, participation, sharing and learning. It creates nationalism, in-fighting and hooligans as we witness everywhere. Created boundaries and borders as opposed to breaking them down into unity.

Even our innocent playground games have now become an area where bullies reign supreme. So sad.

For me the best aspects of sport is where people can derive knowledge and learning. Gain psychologically, enhance their knowledge of nature and the environment, where it can play an ambassador role of extending friendship, skills, and grass-roots role models.

It should nurture as opposed to dividing. Become more of a local 'festival' - community gathering, the same as the community markets/trading and special celebration calendar dates. IOW sport should aspire to raising itself to the level of becoming a higher 'culture' in society and be appreciated as such in the same vein as our higher 'culture' music and arts activitites IMHO.
 
luke wilson said:
Thanks for explaining regarding sports. Just like modern business, governance and pretty much all activities in the human sphere including art, pathological types have twisted them. For some reason though sport seems to be getting a very bad rep. Personally, I have no problem with a top athlete earning as much as a top businessman, artist or leader of men. Whatever ceiling you set as acceptable in society, it should should also be open to sports people.

All these modern athletes who earn obscene money e.g. Roger Federer, Usain Bolt, Lionel Messi amongst others do so because they inspire millions if not billions. They tap into awe and wander, into what people are physically capable off. When you watch some of the best teams play e.g. Barcelona and see how people can work together, fight for each other, go beyond themselves, reach levels of talent that is not cgi... It's inspiring, it brings people together. When you see athletes transcend sport and become social pioneers, again inspirational. I don't see why these people should not be considered heroes really.

Sport is more than just a leisure activity. At the very pinnacle it's something completely different. Sport is as important to society as art, science and all the rest of it.

It's ok to agree to disagree. Plus anyways, just like most cultural stuff, the level I'm talking about only comes into play when society reaches a certain level.

How are you missing the point so much? Didn't you see in the article that "top businessman, artist, or leader of men" and the like would also be of a totally different nature - the limits of business size, the purpose of art, leading, etc. would be centered on community, and would be freed from pathological influence and obsessive-compulsive pursuits for domination....

For all the supposed outrage about the way the world really is you wrote about, and how there's no hope for better, etc., you really don't seem to mind/have a problem with the way everything really is now. That's the impression I'm getting. I might be off, but you come across as being quite contradictory in your posts. Are you that obsessed with professional sports or is that the way you view everything in this sick society? Right now, it's hard to tell where you really stand on things. FWIW.
 
Sport as it is today is just a reflection of society. Its the same as all other human arenas. However, there are certain aspects of professional sport that is good and proper. I recently read an article on sott about the superbowl and how 60% of the athletes lining up would be minorities, most of which grew up in deprived, poverty stricken neighbourhoods. I personally thought, in today's society, this is why I'm for this type of athlete. These guys came from nowhere, they literally had the odds massively stacked against them, but through professional sport, they got to a level that is inspirational. Every other kid coming up in such neighbourhoods, odds stacked against them, they can look at this and think, I can get to that level. That kid instead of going home after school and playing video games, or listening to society implicitly telling them they are nothing, they can work hard, need no one to accept them into anything, prove themselves out in the field or at a gym and lift themselves, their community, their family up. Heck, even lift their country up. Usain Bolt, when he takes to that track, Jamaican kids out on the streets look at him and see that they can be better. Didier Drogba, when he took to the field and displayed such crazy leadership skills and general talent, kids in the ivory coast look at him and know they can be better, there is no ceiling.

When Jesse Owens took to the field in Berlin in 1936, in front of Hitler and his vile theories, when he won so many events despite this... Well, essentially he was telling Hitler you can take your theories and shove em up your backside. The amount of inspiration and sheer life he breathed into so many people just by doing this is immeasurable. When Mohammed Ali could change his name to stand for his beliefs and when he could tell the US government to go stick their war where the sun don't shine, he could do this because he was an athlete at the pinnacle, who was more than just his sport.

All the above is the power of sport. Yes, it can be a leisure activity but also yes, it can be way more than that.

Its more than just something for nations, it is something for people who are oppressed, for people who are poor, for people who are social pariahs, for people who are told they can't be anything... In whatever society you have, these type of person will have their say. In this society, sport is just one of the things they use. They also use music, art and other stuff to show that they can get to levels that can move millions if not billions. I highly doubt a society can exist where such people don't... Your ditch diggers, those who are not academic, those who are bullied, those who are ostracized... they will always be there and they will come up with ways to stick the middle finger to the prevailing society.

So in short, sport is vitally important and to be honest, there is nothing anyone can do about it. For as long as people exist, it'll exist and it'll do so as more than just a leisure activity.

PS: I went to the top sporting uni in the UK and had the good fortune to see athletes in action up close and personal. They won my respect and honestly, they are at a different level. These people deserve to earn a living through what they do and actually most don't! They have it tough and there are real constraints despite all the training and dedication they show (they are some of the most driven, dedicated and disciplined people you'll ever come across). If I stepped onto the badminton court to play for fun against a friend it's all good and well but when one of these guys walked in and I asked to have a fun game... It becomes quickly apparent they occupy a different space.

In one of my maths lectures, the professor was like, if you want to make it in this subject and get to the top of this discipline, you need to have the mentality of an athlete. He said that!
 
luke wilson said:
In one of my maths lectures, the professor was like, if you want to make it in this subject and get to the top of this discipline, you need to have the mentality of an athlete. He said that!

i.e. you need have something of a fanatic's mind set, enjoy being addicted to adrenaline, and not be bothered about potentially destroying your body.
 
yesterday when I was reading this article, I just was thinking how idea and guidelines for life of ex Yugoslavia was quite similar to what is listed in this article ... that I had a chance to live in for 18 years ... and in this predatory reality of our 3D world right now, it was impossible to achieve it in full potential, not just because American imperialism decided to destroy it, but mostly because people were not aware of the fact that we are not who we think we are, and level of possible manipulation of human mind and intentions for production of dramas and negative energy is just so powerful, that if one is not aware of that, and if one is not willing to know that reality better, this system will never develop, as sooner or later people will get corrupted emotionally to go into drama direction of life ... as even in socialism there was a stages of capitalistic mindset, where those who had more money were more respected in general ... so as long as the goal of majority of humans is to be better than other one, instead of paradigm of collaboration and creation, there will be no progress in humanity ...

I remember how I was naive after my high school when socialism collapsed, I though o wow! there is opportunity now for Europe capitalism to learn from us some great things and also opportunity for us to learn from capitalism, and merging point will be just excellent ... at that point I newer could imagine what I will wittiness just 25 year after ... I even wrote one article for one Italian magazine in 2005/2006 I think, about emerging of a new world in EU, inspired by union of this two system ... will try to find it somewhere .. but any way .. was quite similar to those beautiful ideas, but today I don't think they are possible to be achieved with this state of mind in humanity that we have right now ... only in some small groups ...

so in general, IMO as long as there is no systematic treatment of psychopathy, and exclusion of psychopaths from social life, our society will always bee on the edge to slip into the chaos of oblivion ....
 
Luke you sound like coach making his speech. To be the best, to strive for greatness. Etc. This may motivate a lot of people. But it’s not the inner fuel we search for in The Work. That would be empathy. I get how people (STS environment) can dream how they want to be part of something 'great' Meaning, worship and Ego. But that all it is and again not the inner fuel we speak about in The Work.

Ego boasting = obsession. When everything starts to resolve around you. Less people fit in. Obsessive fanaticism blocks empathy. If people where ever so passionate about the things that truly matter than they are about sport this world would be paradise.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]When you watch some of the best teams play e.g. Barcelona and see how people can work together, fight for each other, go beyond themselves[/quote]

What they are doing it for their team is nothing short of peer pressure dressed up nicely. Whenever I think about people fighting for each other. I see the information war. Truth vs Lies. Or the 4+1 coalition fighting the Empire.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]They also use music, art and other stuff to show that they can get to levels that can move millions if not billions.[/quote]

[quote author= Luke Wilson]I don't see why these people should not be considered heroes really.[/quote]

Everyone being so obsessed about it they certainly have an audience. Wake me up whenever some will use that medium about 9/11 truth, US imperialism etc.



[quote author= Luke Wilson](they are some of the most driven, dedicated and disciplined people you'll ever come across)[/quote]

Dedicated to do what? Did they ever join a protest? Spoke about 9/11 truth?, Palestine? etc. If it isn’t empathy that motivates them. Why should it be inspiring.



[quote author= Luke Wilson]for people who are told they can't be anything[/quote]

[quote author= Luke Wilson]or listening to society implicitly telling them they are nothing, they can work hard, need no one to accept them into anything[/quote]

[quote author= Luke Wilson]those who are not academic, those who are bullied, those who are ostracized... they will always be there and they will come up with ways to stick the middle finger to the prevailing society.[/quote]

Basically my life I suppose. So the only way to redeem myself is to proof I am better by exceeding in sport? I think its better not to worry about this make believe hierarchical structure and just enjoy life without peer pressure.



[quote author= Luke Wilson]In one of my maths lectures, the professor was like, if you want to make it in this subject and get to the top of this discipline, you need to have the mentality of an athlete. He said that![/quote]

Its nice how the professor indirectly compares himself to an athlete. But its curiosity and being sincerely interested what opens the capability of the mind to absorb and learn. Ego-boasting can motivate, but it’s bad fuel. And when you are not the best, it will turn against you.



[quote author= Luke Wilson]It's ok to agree to disagree.[/quote]

No it isn’t. Its diplomatically saying nobody is wrong, when somebody clearly is. I think you are way to attached to this idea of sport greatness.

You know, sport can also be enjoyed without this fight for 'greatness' and the fear of being considered a loser.
 
Joe said:
luke wilson said:
In one of my maths lectures, the professor was like, if you want to make it in this subject and get to the top of this discipline, you need to have the mentality of an athlete. He said that!

i.e. you need have something of a fanatic's mind set, enjoy being addicted to adrenaline, and not be bothered about potentially destroying your body.

In other words to be just like the Fakir - totally body centric. Forget the other centres? I think it is quite rare for such people to stop to think of anything else because they are so dedicated (addicted to the adrenalin) etc. FWIW
 
luke, your thoughts on professional sports are interesting, but I'm not reading anything new or original. At first I thought you've just bought into all that's been said in done in support of sports for so many years, so you're basically mimicking popular attitudes. Now I'm noticing the sheer strength being put into your support on this issue and I'm wondering, do you not realize that everything you're saying about sports is relevant only to current society as it is now in its ponerized state?

You seem aware that sports go back a long way, but do you have a clue how it all links into political theory and can be seen as an extension of the ponerized 'state?' If you'll allow me a moment here, I'll try to make this worth your time...

First of all, Gurdjieff said we love our suffering (and here I'll use 'we' and other personal pronouns in their collective sense of mankind in general and in history). We love our suffering. Indeed, in a ponerized civilization of contrived scarcity, life is difficult and we tend to admire those who impose discipline and suffering on themselves in the search for ultimate reward.

For example, all of religious thought is founded on suffering. If we don't suffer in the cause of religion, we'll suffer for the cause of our country in the name of patriotism. If we reject any of that, we'll suffer for some other cause in someone else's name. Why? History tends to agree with Gurdjieff in that we all love suffering under the imposition of discipline.

When one notices there is little to no difference between those who march themselves onto a battle field, ready to die for the cause of 'democracy' and those who threw themselves to the lions in the arenas so the Romans could watch with great joy, a nausea tends to creep up in the whole of consciousness as we want to shy away from a dawning realization that the entirety of human civilization may have actually been built on a demand to kill and be killed...to forcefully dominate and to submit in almost every area of life - even the sexual dungeons. At least it seems so to me.

And speaking of such, Niccolò Machiavelli has often been called the father of political science. Superimposed on Plato's philosophically justified 'republic' and its advocacy of a lazy, unproductive high class of somehow privileged citizenship and you have all you need to create a context for birthing psychos and sociopaths who can heartlessly impose value systems of discipline and suffering everywhere, just so there is consistency. That's where the current civilization glues together, IMO. We have sadists imposing their preferred forms of discipline on us and we are masochists for accepting it. What we as a community here and now, today, seem to want, is to rid ourselves of the whole thing and start over. Can we do that without reservation?

On the remaining free area of human life, play-time, we notice children and adults playing a game with a ball for fun and what do we do? We impose a contrived conflict on naturally occurring play and demand the conflict be resolved through a contrived value system of rules and regulations, rewards and penalties. Having removed the spontaneity and unpredictability nature of fun and replaced it all with procedural steps, we then have to artificially create excitement in people by hyping up everything beyond the levels of believability.

So, in summary, it appears to me that everywhere we find someone advocating the imposition of contrived conflict, even if ostensibly defined as 'fun', we will find a machiavellian. We will have to call him out and politely ask him to explain his reasoning and awareness for his position, while hoping it's just an educational issue at play.

What do you think, luke? Am I making a serious blunder in my reasoning about all this?
 
luke wilson said:
Sport as it is today is just a reflection of society. Its the same as all other human arenas. However, there are certain aspects of professional sport that is good and proper.
{snip}

Luke, in that entire post you've taken the idea of sport out of the context of the original article and spoken about its value in the current pathological world. In other words, you've completely lost the context of the discussion. What use would anything you've written about be in an egalitarian society as Pierre has outlined it in the article? If there's no poverty to rise up against, nothing to escape from, no need to "make it against all odds" and provide inspiration for others to do the same, what value is there in having a member of a society who serves no other function than to play a game?

In the current culture, professional sport really serves as nothing more than a distraction for people to avoid thinking about their menial and unproductive existence. If existence isn't menial and unproductive, no one would need distraction and, as best I can surmise, interest in sport outside of a leisure activity would wane.
 
:D :D :D

Ok... I really like professional sports but it's not a sacred cow. It's something I was hoping that would exist in the ideal society at a professional /competitive level but it's fine if it doesn't. :)
 
Buddy, I just wanted to say you made very good points. I suppose suffering in the context of sport or science or art, in terms of being better, improving skill, I guess it is inspiring because it shows people what is possible. Now mind you, I'm pretty lazy and would never make it as an athlete or someone who is a master of any craft, simply because to become good, you have to sacrifice, be dedicated and impose discipline on yourself. It's quite rare that you can achieve mastery in anything, be it uncovering the truth (e.g. Laura), sculpting greatly (e.g. Michelangelo), being a great painter (da Vinci), great scientist (Tesla), great athlete (C Ronaldo) etc etc without imposing on yourself such conditions that in many eyes constitute suffering. So, on the subject of suffering on sport, what's the difference between that and any of the rest. It's suffering not for its own sake but for the sake of getting to a new level.

Someone can say, and rightly so, that sports, professionally/competitively is superfluous in an ideal society... But people out there make the choice to engage in it on levels that push the envelope. By doing so, they take the human body to physical levels it would not go to unless it was literally your job (i.e. professional). If someone is willing to stick those people on a tv screen for others to watch or if people are willing to go to a stadium, if they are willing to part with money through there own choice in this ideal society... What's the difference between that and someone paying money to go watch a musician or to buy a piece of painting... Forget obscene money, just any sort of money... What's the difference?

Switching gears, in the article it talked about prostitution. I kept quiet about it because sex is a touchy subject and usually the type of sex people choose to engage in is their personal choice as long as it doesn't involve abuse and exploitation. But, in what ideal society is prostitution in any shape or form acceptable? What does it add to society? For sure the prostitutes wont be doing it for money (because money is not an issue in this ideal society), so the only other reason left is because they want to. So we respect the choice of prostitutes to be prostitutes when there is no financial reason for it... Just because they want to... When it really doesn't add anything to society... Yet, apparently professional sports has no place in this ideal society but prostitution does? I don't really know what to say to that... Even forget prostitutes, people can be professional artists and musicians in the ideal society... All they add is culture to those who consume there art... Its all immaterial stuff, not on the same level as engineers, doctors, architects etc... Artists/musicians are pretty much no different to going to watch 2 professional sports team compete at the limits of human capability... Yet apparently one is useful and the other is not? :huh:

Explain it to me Buddy? What are your thoughts on this? I honestly don't understand this. In my eyes cultured people, of which the majority in this forum are, look down on sport because they are terrified by the force it has, the force to move people, the force to evoke powerful emotions, the force to bring countless people together, plus usually cultured people tend to value mental activities more than physical activities, which they see as cheap and not worth the same value as intellectual property. Maybe in this ideal society everyone is cultured and professional and competitive sport is an outmoded idea.
 
luke wilson said:
But, in what ideal society is prostitution in any shape or form acceptable? What does it add to society? For sure the prostitutes wont be doing it for money (because money is not an issue in this ideal society), so the only other reason left is because they want to. So we respect the choice of prostitutes to be prostitutes when there is no financial reason for it... Just because they want to... When it really doesn't add anything to society... Yet, apparently professional sports has no place in this ideal society but prostitution does? I don't really know what to say.

Sports (professional or otherwise) comes under the domain of society planning, and therefore has to be managed in a specific way. Prostitution is not something that would be encouraged, in fact it is discouraged, but since it comes down to an individual choice, it cannot be managed in the same way as sports, but should not be criminalized, so it is tolerated but with mechanisms to discourage it.

Your posts give the impression that you didn't really read the article carefully or you didn't really understand the spirit in which it was written. In general, your posts often give the impression that you don't really take the time or effort to understand things when you read them, rather you immediately engage in all sorts of assumptions and tangential thought processes that lead you to miss the crux of the matter.
 
Joe said:
Your posts give the impression that you didn't really read the article carefully or you didn't really understand the spirit in which it was written.

Indeed. Pierre's article clearly outlines the philosophy of post-imperialism regarding sport, which you seemed to have either ignored or totally misunderstood:

'Modern sport' have nothing to do with sport, fun or sharing anymore. These are highly mediatized and professionalized activities ruled by individualism, competition and money. In addition to promoting those destructive values in our minds, their permament media coverage constitutes a major diversion from what really matters.
 
It's quite rare that you can achieve mastery in anything, be it uncovering the truth (e.g. Laura), sculpting greatly (e.g. Michelangelo), being a great painter (da Vinci), great scientist (Tesla), great athlete (C Ronaldo) etc etc without imposing on yourself such conditions that in many eyes constitute suffering. So, on the subject of suffering on sport, what's the difference between that and any of the rest. It's suffering not for its own sake but for the sake of getting to a new level.

Luke,

Don't you see an obvious difference between Laura, Tesla or Da Vinci and Christiano Ronaldo?

Did the latter achieve anything in terms of consciousness, knowledge or awareness? C. Ronaldo is a star because the sport business is heavily sponsored by the elites. The elites support the sport business because it serves them in several ways:
- it provides the masses with pseudo heroes (and therefore fills the void for real heroes),
- it promotes individualistic, competitive values and normalizes psychopathic behaviours,
- it offers an emotional outlet to the oppressed and angry masses,
- it diverts the masses from what really matters,
- it constitutes a perfect media for the marketing operations of multinational corporation.
 
Hi Luke,

I think it's clear that this is certainly a sacred cows of yours. I think its best to keep it in mind and reread this topic whenever it rings a bell.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]I suppose suffering in the context of sport or science or art, in terms of being better, improving skill, I guess it is inspiring because it shows people what is possible.[/quote]

There are only 2 kinds of suffering. Unconsciousness suffering and conscious suffering.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]But people out there make the choice to engage in it on levels that push the envelope. [/quote]

[quote author= Luke Wilson]It's suffering not for its own sake but for the sake of getting to a new level.[/quote]

How does this new level helps to create awareness? What kind of productive function has it exactly? This should matter and if it isn’t, its unconscious suffering. Which is suffering deprived from the Ego and nothing more.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]What's the difference between that and someone paying money to go watch a musician or to buy a piece of painting... Forget obscene money, just any sort of money... What's the difference?[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a match. But with everything, it is when obsession take’s over.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]In my eyes cultured people, of which the majority in this forum are, [/quote]

I believe the aim is to BE. Not act cultured.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]look down on sport because they are terrified by the force it has, the force to move people, the force to evoke powerful emotions, the force to bring countless people together
[/quote]

Nobody here looks down on sport I believe. That’s not the point. It is the obsessive fanaticism that we argue against. And rightfully so. Just look at the state of the world and where our interests lie as a species. Our priorities are messed up.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]the force to move people[/quote]

Move them to do what, cheer for their club they identified themselves with? Or just by exhausting themselves for reaching a new useless level ?


[quote author= Luke Wilson]the force to evoke powerful emotions[/quote]

All those emotions and no real empathy.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]the force to bring countless people together[/quote]

United not by empathy/conscience. But just because they want to feel part of something admired.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]Maybe in this ideal society everyone is cultured and professional and competitive sport is an outmoded idea.[/quote]

In an ideal society I would transform all the sport stadiums into museums of the lies and suffering that dominated humanity because the idiotic majority was to busy entertaining themselves there instead of taking responsibility.


[quote author= Luke Wilson]If someone is willing to stick those people on a tv screen for others to watch or if people are willing to go to a stadium, if they are willing to part with money through there own choice in this ideal society[/quote]

Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the 'past.' People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.' -- Cassiopaeans, 09-28-02
 

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