Hitler and Gurdjieff
- Thread starter Ryan
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jake tassell
The Force is Strong With This One
Hitler and Mysticism
Oh well, it seems like I'm talking to myself...
Ooh it's cold in here!
Anyway, to the best that I can recall... in 1998, or thereabouts, a conversation came up on an E-group run by a guy from Oregon called Alan about Hitler and The Fourth Way.
Various people in the group suggested that aspects of 'The Hitler thing' were kind of bombastic distortions of Fourth Way teachings.
It was remarked upon that "Arbeit Macht Frei" and "The Triumph of The Will" could almost be Fourth Way cliches. Somebody also said that 'the many suffering for the few' was also a kind of mirroring of Fourth Way teachings. Another person went on to suggest that the 'Sieg Heil' salute was a rip from one of the Gurdjieff movements - representing Kali.
This conversation caused absolute uproar and pandemonium on this Forum. The subscribers were mainly mystical middle-aged American 4th Way, Buddhist, New Age ex-hippy types - and they really didn't want to know about this.
Then Colin Brown told the story that George Cornelius had told him about Hitler having been in a Fourth Way group in Berlin (I think it was at the same time that Gurdjieff was in Berlin - but I'm not sure), and how it was in some way related to Gurdjieff having completely 'disappeared' for a year.
Colin then went on to say that he himself didn't believe this story when George told him it, so he went to Berlin and investigated the story for six months 'til he found out that it was true.
Now what he found out in Berlin - I don't know. And whether the story is true or not, again I don't know, but it strikes me that every time this subject has been raised on various forums, Fourth Way and other, there is an immediate reaction for expediancies sake to cut the story off and shut it down - much like yours, Ryan.
Oh well, it seems like I'm talking to myself...
Ooh it's cold in here!
Anyway, to the best that I can recall... in 1998, or thereabouts, a conversation came up on an E-group run by a guy from Oregon called Alan about Hitler and The Fourth Way.
Various people in the group suggested that aspects of 'The Hitler thing' were kind of bombastic distortions of Fourth Way teachings.
It was remarked upon that "Arbeit Macht Frei" and "The Triumph of The Will" could almost be Fourth Way cliches. Somebody also said that 'the many suffering for the few' was also a kind of mirroring of Fourth Way teachings. Another person went on to suggest that the 'Sieg Heil' salute was a rip from one of the Gurdjieff movements - representing Kali.
This conversation caused absolute uproar and pandemonium on this Forum. The subscribers were mainly mystical middle-aged American 4th Way, Buddhist, New Age ex-hippy types - and they really didn't want to know about this.
Then Colin Brown told the story that George Cornelius had told him about Hitler having been in a Fourth Way group in Berlin (I think it was at the same time that Gurdjieff was in Berlin - but I'm not sure), and how it was in some way related to Gurdjieff having completely 'disappeared' for a year.
Colin then went on to say that he himself didn't believe this story when George told him it, so he went to Berlin and investigated the story for six months 'til he found out that it was true.
Now what he found out in Berlin - I don't know. And whether the story is true or not, again I don't know, but it strikes me that every time this subject has been raised on various forums, Fourth Way and other, there is an immediate reaction for expediancies sake to cut the story off and shut it down - much like yours, Ryan.
G
Guest
Guest
Hitler and Mysticism
I was once approached by some umpteenth removed desciple of a "fourth way" school trying to tell my I had to submit to the "Great Guru" who allegedly was some original school founder. I told him to buzz off and did not ask for details. The point is that even if someone was Gurdjieff's close buddy at some point does not take away that humans are corruptible.
Hitler and the Nazi's were involved around a lot of esoterica at least in form if not in essence. The point is, it was all psychopathic. There are a lot of esoteric teachings whose purity stops after the original teacher, whereupon corruption begins. In fact, what teaching has not been corrupted? Psychopaths love these teachings because they can play with them and play with people using them. If what the above post says is true, it only represents another case among many where pathocrats played prophet and sage.
I was once approached by some umpteenth removed desciple of a "fourth way" school trying to tell my I had to submit to the "Great Guru" who allegedly was some original school founder. I told him to buzz off and did not ask for details. The point is that even if someone was Gurdjieff's close buddy at some point does not take away that humans are corruptible.
Hitler and the Nazi's were involved around a lot of esoterica at least in form if not in essence. The point is, it was all psychopathic. There are a lot of esoteric teachings whose purity stops after the original teacher, whereupon corruption begins. In fact, what teaching has not been corrupted? Psychopaths love these teachings because they can play with them and play with people using them. If what the above post says is true, it only represents another case among many where pathocrats played prophet and sage.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Hitler and Mysticism
Yes, Hitler and his 'crew' were very interested in 'occult' and esoteric information to gain POWER OVER people - not to build power from within, through knowledge. They spent a lot of time and resources digging up whatever they could to use over and against others. In reference to another thread in 'Diet and Health', Hitler was also a user of a monatomic gold like substance, according to the C's. Judging from his behavior, and comments from the C's, he apparently had a 'hotline hitlerphone' to 4D STS forces as well.
Yes, Hitler and his 'crew' were very interested in 'occult' and esoteric information to gain POWER OVER people - not to build power from within, through knowledge. They spent a lot of time and resources digging up whatever they could to use over and against others. In reference to another thread in 'Diet and Health', Hitler was also a user of a monatomic gold like substance, according to the C's. Judging from his behavior, and comments from the C's, he apparently had a 'hotline hitlerphone' to 4D STS forces as well.
Hitler and Mysticism
Not getting the attention you desire? Read Laura's message - there have been server issues and the forum was down for a few hours.jake tassell said:
I moved your off-topic comments to another thread so we could explore the topic fully as a separate issue. How is that "shutting down" the story? It seems to me that it bothers you that you weren't able to post your comments where you wanted them to be posted.... I wonder why?
jake tassell
The Force is Strong With This One
Hitler and Mysticism
I wonder why you chose the heading. It's something of a misnomer.
Shouldn't it be: Hitler and The Fourth Way? Or Hitler and Gurdjieff?
I mean, that's the subject, and that's why you moved it, right?
Isn't it closer to the truth that you're simply ill-equipt to deal with this story and will comment on any aspect of my post, my imagined motives for posting it, or any other subject in order to distract attention from the substance of the post itself?
Isn't it closer to the truth that your thought processes are so banged out with other peoples cliches that your cognitive faculties are compromised to the extent you've been forced to abandon critical thinking and cling to a fearful cynicism that's visible even to a blind bat?
I am astounded that an organisation like The Signs Team has no interest in checking this story out.
I've told you what I know. I've given Colin's web address. I can do no more.
That remark is quite frankly, psychopathic.Ryan said:
Yes, I'm aware of this, but the server was down yesterday morning. You moving this topic to the Conspiracy Theory section, with absolutely no comment on the substance of the post, occured the night before, didn't it?Ryan said:
I wonder why you chose the heading. It's something of a misnomer.
Shouldn't it be: Hitler and The Fourth Way? Or Hitler and Gurdjieff?
I mean, that's the subject, and that's why you moved it, right?
So where is your exploration?Ryan said:
Isn't it closer to the truth that you're simply ill-equipt to deal with this story and will comment on any aspect of my post, my imagined motives for posting it, or any other subject in order to distract attention from the substance of the post itself?
Isn't it closer to the truth that your thought processes are so banged out with other peoples cliches that your cognitive faculties are compromised to the extent you've been forced to abandon critical thinking and cling to a fearful cynicism that's visible even to a blind bat?
You wonder why. Oh, I get it, you want this story to go away so much you're prepared to insinuate that I'm on 4D STS remote from a far-flung part of the multiverse. Charming.Ryan said:
I am astounded that an organisation like The Signs Team has no interest in checking this story out.
I've told you what I know. I've given Colin's web address. I can do no more.
G
Guest
Guest
Hitler and Mysticism
As for moving the topic, if it was me I would be happy to be given my own space to expound on the theme further than what the "Mein Kampf" thread allowed. That thread was about OP's, and the originator stated himself that the Hitler quote was simply an example, and he did not intend to focus so much attention on just that aspect. If you read that thread, jake, you will see that a discussion of Hitler's 4th Way associations would have made it quite confusing.
Contrary to being put in "exile" starting a new thread is an affirmation that the idea supporting it can stand on its own. There are a lot of threads that have little or no response to them, and I don't see anyone complaining there.
Personally, I think we all know that Hitler was involved in a lot of occult directions. He was also born a Catholic and friendly with the Pope. Does the fact that he was associated with 4th Way material invalidate the 4th Way? Does the possibility that some of Gurdjieff' students may have been Nazi's make Gurdjieff a Nazi?
I think this is an interesting topic, but I would like to know if there are any stated implications here. In other words, so Hitler was associated with 4th Way teachers. So what? What's the significance of this? If this thread is to get moving, let's get it moving and get beyond the counter-productive finger-pointing stage.
The subject of the post is "Hitler and the 4th Way", which is a sub-category of Hitler and Mysticism. The extended title would allow someone to post a comment making connections between Hitler's treatment of the 4th Way material and other occult and esoteric directions Hitler adopted. It can allow for a greater picture and understanding, so we can perhaps get a glimps of the forest besides a few trees. I see nothing wrong with this.jake tassell said:
As for moving the topic, if it was me I would be happy to be given my own space to expound on the theme further than what the "Mein Kampf" thread allowed. That thread was about OP's, and the originator stated himself that the Hitler quote was simply an example, and he did not intend to focus so much attention on just that aspect. If you read that thread, jake, you will see that a discussion of Hitler's 4th Way associations would have made it quite confusing.
Contrary to being put in "exile" starting a new thread is an affirmation that the idea supporting it can stand on its own. There are a lot of threads that have little or no response to them, and I don't see anyone complaining there.
Ryan simply expressed an opinion here, without being accomodating to anyone's ego. He disagreed that this topic has substance, and at the same time gave it its own space and the benefit of the doubt.Ryan said:
Personally, I think we all know that Hitler was involved in a lot of occult directions. He was also born a Catholic and friendly with the Pope. Does the fact that he was associated with 4th Way material invalidate the 4th Way? Does the possibility that some of Gurdjieff' students may have been Nazi's make Gurdjieff a Nazi?
I think this is an interesting topic, but I would like to know if there are any stated implications here. In other words, so Hitler was associated with 4th Way teachers. So what? What's the significance of this? If this thread is to get moving, let's get it moving and get beyond the counter-productive finger-pointing stage.
Hitler and Mysticism
Perhaps the reason for the effect you have noted is that many people have spent a lot of time and energy studying Gurjieff and his work and have found nothing that even would suggest any truth to such rumors. It has nothing to do with expediancy, it has everything to do with sincerity and learning to be objective.
So, again, please provide your sources, the data, and data on the sources.
I will add that I have heard this nasty rumor myself and undertook to try to verify it and discovered that the source was Pauwels and Bergier who were known to be "fudgers". They also said that Schwaller de Lubicz was the "real" Fulcanelli. In case you don't know it, Schwaller WAS quite closely associated with the Nazi movement and all that you are saying about Gurdjieff is, in fact, true about Schwaller who was definitely NOT Fulcanelli. As far as I can see, it's all part of New Age COINTELPRO, and you are helping to propagate it.
Again, let's have some data not third hand, Chinese whispers.Jake said:
Perhaps the reason for the effect you have noted is that many people have spent a lot of time and energy studying Gurjieff and his work and have found nothing that even would suggest any truth to such rumors. It has nothing to do with expediancy, it has everything to do with sincerity and learning to be objective.
So, again, please provide your sources, the data, and data on the sources.
I will add that I have heard this nasty rumor myself and undertook to try to verify it and discovered that the source was Pauwels and Bergier who were known to be "fudgers". They also said that Schwaller de Lubicz was the "real" Fulcanelli. In case you don't know it, Schwaller WAS quite closely associated with the Nazi movement and all that you are saying about Gurdjieff is, in fact, true about Schwaller who was definitely NOT Fulcanelli. As far as I can see, it's all part of New Age COINTELPRO, and you are helping to propagate it.
Hitler and Mysticism
Just to get the ball rolling, I decided to do a search for this "Colin Brown" who is said to have made claims about Gurdjieff and Hitler. First thing I found was this:
Then, there is this:
And basically just a lot of repeats of the same things.
That's the first pass.
Just to get the ball rolling, I decided to do a search for this "Colin Brown" who is said to have made claims about Gurdjieff and Hitler. First thing I found was this:
The page includes a photo and an image of the enneagram. As far as I can tell, there is nothing else to the site (a free webspace server).
Then, there is this:
and a listing here: http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/links/otherrelatedsites.html
And basically just a lot of repeats of the same things.
That's the first pass.
Hitler and Mysticism
Second pass I find:
The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol10/articles/hitlerhistory.shtml
which includes the following bizarre claim:
Now, anyone who has studied the life and works of Gurdjieff know that he ALWAYS was surrounded by a group of people, students, family, children, etc. Many of the people who stayed at the Prieure were Russian refugees whom Gurdjieff suppoted entirely. There is NO possibility that he could have "disappeared for a year" without any number of them making note of it. There is also NO possibility of Haushofer studying with Gurdjieff without it having been noted and commented on by any of a number of his students or even himself.
The fact is there is NO record of any such contact that I have ever been able to find.
The nasty insinuations that Gurdjieff was into "magick" a la Crowley, comes up now and again too. There is a wonderful incident in Gurdjieff's life that ought to put a period to such speculations:
When I search on Wulf Schwartzwaller, all I find is hundreds of places quoting his book about Hitler and not a single site that tells us who he is, is he an academic, what is his background, why should we believe him, or even if he is a real person and not a pseudonym.
It's somebody else's turn to dig now.
Second pass I find:
The Unknown Hitler: Nazi Roots in the Occult
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol10/articles/hitlerhistory.shtml
which includes the following bizarre claim:
Notice that here, it is not Gurdjieff directly who was connected to Hitler, but the claim is made that it was Haushofer who was connected on one side to Gurdjieff and on the other side to Hitler.
Now, anyone who has studied the life and works of Gurdjieff know that he ALWAYS was surrounded by a group of people, students, family, children, etc. Many of the people who stayed at the Prieure were Russian refugees whom Gurdjieff suppoted entirely. There is NO possibility that he could have "disappeared for a year" without any number of them making note of it. There is also NO possibility of Haushofer studying with Gurdjieff without it having been noted and commented on by any of a number of his students or even himself.
The fact is there is NO record of any such contact that I have ever been able to find.
The nasty insinuations that Gurdjieff was into "magick" a la Crowley, comes up now and again too. There is a wonderful incident in Gurdjieff's life that ought to put a period to such speculations:
John Roemer writes in "The Controversy of the Occult":Richard Smoley said:
Which is total BS. It will be useful to research the authors of all this nonsense in order to determine their connections, their perspectives, and thus their agendas.
When I search on Wulf Schwartzwaller, all I find is hundreds of places quoting his book about Hitler and not a single site that tells us who he is, is he an academic, what is his background, why should we believe him, or even if he is a real person and not a pseudonym.
It's somebody else's turn to dig now.
Hitler and Mysticism
What substance? You simply posted a bunch of hearsay and rumour. And it's easily apparent to everyone that this thread has not been closed or deleted, thus enabling ongoing discussion. So what exactly is your beef, Jake?
Yes it did, but please try to consider that people may be based in different timezones, and thus may be asleep, or working, at different hours. Besides, I also stated my opinion based on what you initially provided. It seems that at least one reader (EsoQuest) understood this.jake tassell said:
As EsoQuest has perceptively noted, I chose the title in order to broaden the scope of possible discussion. Why are you so concerned about details such as titles and thread locations?
What substance? You simply posted a bunch of hearsay and rumour. And it's easily apparent to everyone that this thread has not been closed or deleted, thus enabling ongoing discussion. So what exactly is your beef, Jake?If I wanted this story to go away, wouldn't I have deleted your posts and not started a new thread? What you say makes no sense.
Will you allow me the courtesy of a little time to investigate and do research before replying further?
Hitler and Mysticism
Some further information about Colin Brown. Most of the reviews of his book on Amazon.com are none too flattering:
Far more interesting though, is this:
http://jtreg.livejournal.com/477.html
Can you clarify the above for me?
Some further information about Colin Brown. Most of the reviews of his book on Amazon.com are none too flattering:
Big Red said:
John said:
There is only one positive review, aside from the author's own.A Reader said:
Far more interesting though, is this:
http://jtreg.livejournal.com/477.html
Jake, I have some questions. Which Gurdjieff group was it that you were in? Colin's or George's? And who told you that little snippet about Gurdjieff and Hitler? You claim originally that it was Colin, who was told by George, but that seems to contradict what you have written in the above person's LiveJournal (assuming that it was, in fact, you).Jake Tassell said:
Can you clarify the above for me?
Hitler and Mysticism
According to a book I've read not long ago about Gurdjieff, (This book is in russian by Oleg Shishkin, history researcher, named "Twilight of the Magie"), the source of this information is a book "Monsieur Gurdjieff" by Louis Pauwels (1954). He claimed that some trusted informers (that turned out to be a co-author of "Morning of the magie" - Bergier) told him that one of those who helped to create Gurdgieff society, was Karl Haushofer. And Pauwels believed his source, despite a lack of any proof.
But Shishkin points out a possible connection between Gurdjieff and Rosucristian society, expaining that lot of his ideas (like anology of horse, carriage and driver) were based on a work of Gerard Encausse (Papus).
Such connection exists?
According to a book I've read not long ago about Gurdjieff, (This book is in russian by Oleg Shishkin, history researcher, named "Twilight of the Magie"), the source of this information is a book "Monsieur Gurdjieff" by Louis Pauwels (1954). He claimed that some trusted informers (that turned out to be a co-author of "Morning of the magie" - Bergier) told him that one of those who helped to create Gurdgieff society, was Karl Haushofer. And Pauwels believed his source, despite a lack of any proof.
But Shishkin points out a possible connection between Gurdjieff and Rosucristian society, expaining that lot of his ideas (like anology of horse, carriage and driver) were based on a work of Gerard Encausse (Papus).
Such connection exists?
