Hitler and Gurdjieff

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

But Shishkin points out a possible connection between Gurdjieff and Rosucristian society, expaining that lot of his ideas (like anology of horse, carriage and driver) were based on a work of Gerard Encausse (Papus). Such connection exists?

Dunno. We need to look into it. Wikipedia says about Papus:

Papus
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Gerard Encausse (July 13, 1865 - 1916), whose esoteric pseudonym was Papus, was the Spanish-born French physician, hypnotist, and popularizer of occultism, who founded the modern Martinist Order. "Papus" was also a member of the Golden Dawn temple in Paris, apparently, as well as Memphis-Misraim and probably other esoteric or paramasonic organizations, as well as being an author of several occult books. Outside of his paramasonic and martinist activities he was also a spiritual student of the French spiritualist healer, Nizier Anthelme Philippe, "Maître Philippe de Lyon".

His early readings in the Tarot and the lore of the Kabbalah in translation was inspired by the occult writings of Eliphas Lévi, whose translation of the "Nuctemeron of Apollonius of Tyana" printed as a supplement to Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie (1855), provided Encausse with his nom de plume: "Papus" means "physician."

In 1888, Papus was a founder of the Kabbalistic Order of the Rose-Croix. See Rosicrucians.

In October 1901 Papus collaborated with Jean Carrère in producing a series of articles in the Echo de Paris under the pseudonym Niet. Here Sergei Witte and Pyotr Rachkovsky were attacked, and suggested that there was a sinister financial syndicate trying to disrupt the Franco-Russian alliance. It was alleged that this syndicate was Jewish, and may have contributed to the false allegation that Papus forged The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I guess we need to know exactly where in Papus' writings this allegory was first presented. Next, we need to find out if it exists elsewhere and how far back.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Hitler and Mysticism

I guess we need to know exactly where in Papus' writings this allegory was first presented. Next, we need to find out if it exists elsewhere and how far back.

The allegory is pretty old. Here's a summary of Plato's version, slightly different (doesn't explain the chariot), but shows that it wasn't really a 'new' idea, from http://www.incommunion.org/articles/conferences-lectures/the-passions-enemy-or-friend

Plato has a similar view. He uses the famous analogy of a charioteer with a two-horse carriage. The charioteer represents reason, which should be in control. One of the two horses pulling the chariot is of noble breed, the other is unruly and rebellious. And for Plato the fine horse denotes the noble emotions of the spirited part of the soul — courage, etcetera — while the disorderly horse represents the baser passions of the desiring part of the soul. The implications of the analogy are clear: if the charioteer has no horses at all, the chariot is never going to get moving, it is no use simply calculating with reason; if your carriage is to get moving, you need to have a proper relationship with the other aspects of your personhood. But the analogy goes further than that. If you have a two-horse carriage and only one horse yoked to it, you won’t get very far. The chariot will go askew immediately. In order for your chariot to move straight and far, you must have both horses properly harnessed, and you have to come to terms with both your horses.

The source, Plato's Phaedrus, can be found here: http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html

 

[Laura]

Hitler and Mysticism

The allegory is pretty old. Here's a summary of Plato's version, slightly different (doesn't explain the chariot), but shows that it wasn't really a 'new' idea, from http://www.incommunion.org/articles/con … -or-friend.

Thanks. I suspected as much. And knowing how Gurdjieff felt about groups such as the Rosicrucians and OTO and Golden Dawn and particularly, Crowley, I think these people are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Keit]

Hitler and Mysticism

I guess we need to know exactly where in Papus' writings this allegory was first presented. Next, we need to find out if it exists elsewhere and how far back.

I'll try to translate part of it. I am sorry, but maybe lot of "real" meaning will be lost due to translation. Somehow he is indeed taking the direction of connection to Rose and Christ.

****Begin translation:

"In 1904 in Sankt Peterburg was published Papus book "First data on occultism" (or in English translation "What is Occultism" http://ostg.pricegrabber.com/search.php/bkcontrib_id=2369974)

Machine translation of the quote from Papus book:
"Rig of horses consists of three parts or the beginnings: crew, a horse and the driver. The crew passively movable, represents the image of a human body; a horse, passive, but moving - astral body; and the driver - the engine and the head - the image of spirit. ** (Papus. Occultism. Kiev. 1993. page 232-233)"
Papus gave additional detailed comments on this topic in his essay "Occult content of a man" that was also published in Russia prior to revolution.
When Gurjieff refer to an anonimous retelling of those topics, he pointing out that sometimes the source of his directives, not coming from Eastern wisdom but from European esoterism....
In "Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson" he also sometimes reffering to Papus formulations, but without mentioning a source. Here only one small example of such approach: "Now let's talk about the doctrine of the Sacred Individual which has appeared among inhabitants of Tibet, Sacred Lama and about the reasons of complete destruction of this doctrine ". ** (Gurdjieff G,"Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson", M.,2002, page. 491)Also in this book, appearence of a Sacred Lama has it's source in Papus work, where he reffer to him as one of the personal names of Rama. "Having become the master of people, appointed to take priority over a civilization of white race, Ram has established theocratic and religious order in the state . It has established priesthood in Tibet , and, having changed the fighting name of Ram (Aries) to name priest Lam (Lamb), it has based a Lamaism, a cult of the mysterious lamb, characteristic for aryan race. " ** (Papus. Occultism. Kiev, 1993, page.177)
Direct borrowing from Papus is typical for Gurdjieff.

****End of translation.

p.s I suppose that if Shishkin's first argument about Papus being a source of the carriage analogy can be easily refuted, the second one lookes even weaker. Nevertheless it's interesting to notice, how many researchers, even the thorough ones, fall into deception of their own "want to be true" arguments.. Tricky business.

 

[Johnno]

Hitler and Mysticism

BTW there's a timeline of Gurdjieff's life here

http://www.gurdjieff.org/chronology.htm

 

[loelie]

GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

Hello,

Laura and Ark often quote Gurdjieff, by resuming(by taking back) many of these papers.
BUT.....We find a lot of link between Hitler and Gurdjieff, in particular in the foundation of the brotherhood of the Vril. example:
Haushofer and Gurdjieff had everything to get. The first one had been a part of the brilliant Changing room or Company(Society) of Vril, sect wildly antiChristian.
" In Vril, says Robert Ambelain, we practised doctrines tantriques inherited from the Tibetan black Hats(Caps), opposite to the yellow Hats(Caps) of the traditional Buddhism which refuses to pay(pour) the blood. " The black Hats(Caps) which resort to the sacrifices of cocks, pheasants or even monkeys, and which decorate their hats of tiny wooden death's-heads, recover directly from the witchcraft. The relations of Haushofer and these Tibetan shamans were constant because he(it) facilitated in 1925 the installation, in Munich and especially in Berlin of a small Tibetan colony(summer camp) and, in 1929, the erection of their temples in these same cities. Gurdjieff had travelled for a long time in East and in Far East. Born in 1877 to Alexandropol, the Russian witch had been the classmate of Stalin at the Greek high school of this city which would become Leninakan. But he(it) was less interested in the taught materials(subjects) than in the yoga, in the hypnosis, in the literature of India and in the theosophy which was then rapidly expanding. He(it) disappeared during twenty years and his(its) hidden life took place in the Tibet, where he(it) would have had access to mysterious libraries and in the center of the Brothers of the Truth.
" In Berlin, Haushofer based(established) the Brilliant Changing room or the Company(Society) of Vril. The objective of the changing room was to investigate the origins(background) of the race Aryan and of performer of the exercises of concentration to wake the strength of Vril ". Haushofer was a student of the magician and the Russian metaphysician George Gurdjieff. Every two Gurdjieff and Haushofer maintains that they were in touch with Tibetan secret changing rooms which possessed the secret to become "Superman". The changing room included Hitler, aalfred, Rosenberg, Himmler, Gà¶ring and the personal physicist of Hitler the Dr. Morell. It is known as well as Aleister Crowley and Gurdjieff tried to return in touch with Hitler. The power of Hitler's suggestion becomes more understandable if each keeps(guards) in head that it had access to the "secret" psychological techniques of Gurdjieff which, in return, were based on the learnings(apprenticeships) Sufis and the Tibetan llamas(lamas) what familiarized him(it) with the learning(apprenticeship) Zen of the Japanese Company(Society) and of the Green Dragon.
In France, we have the national union of the associations of defence of families and individual victims of sects, which sued in particular, these days, the Scientology.
Same Ouspensky, before sinking into the alcoholism and of mourrir, to criticize Gurdjieff.
There is in French, books(pounds) of alumni of Gurdjieff showing how he(it) tried to take the control of the others effectively, it is well someone turned(shot) to others.
Then, with all this, why to speak about Gurdjieff??? How can you encourage to read his books ?
When think of the cassiopéens of Gurdjieff?
I practically read everything Laura's books(pounds), I do not believe in everything and I find a lot of fast conclusion (as for the animal of the gévaudan for example). But there, the link(merger) between Gurdjieff and hitler and making party of the history(story), how did you make not to see him(it) or the knowledge?

If I write you it is as to be opened, please answer me!!!

Loélie, Young soul on holidays on earth.

 

[mkrnhr]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

you mean if other forum members answer to your question you will not listen to them?

 

[Biomiast]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

Hi loelie,

I think you are confusing issues a bit and you are thinking not by evidence, but by hearsay and assumptions. Have you actually read any books of Gurdjieff or In Search of the Miraculous?

I am asking because if you have, you wouldn't talk about any Changing Rooms that makes somebody a "Superman". Gurdjieff said many times that tremendous efforts and self-observation is needed to move beyond our machine. Can you provide any data that he mentions those rooms?

Gurdjieff had many students, and unfortunately, many of them weren't able to comprehend what he was saying, so do you think it is wise to judge Gurdjieff based only on those things. I mean, he wrote many books and his system speaks for itself. It helped many members of this forum including myself, and I personally found him very knowledgeable, even though he doesn't contain or doesn't reveal all of it. It seemed to me, you judge issues with a black-white thinking and reacting the information you heard as true. His connection to Hitler may or may not be true, I don't see any data to link them though. Can you provide any data?

I think power of Hitler can be understood by psychopathology, have you ever had a chance to read Political Ponerology book, or the section in the forum?

It is still a debate where Gurdjieff learned those things and everybody says something else, the thing that strikes me is you are speaking as if you were there, very interesting. You say "it is known" in some places in your post, but who knows those things? Maybe the rest of the people know, but I don't know personally, so can you provide data for that too?

I practically read everything Laura's books(pounds), I do not believe in everything and I find a lot of fast conclusion

Nobody here believes anything Laura writes, we make our own research and find out if it fits. On the other hand, I find it fascinating that you claim Laura reaches "a lot of fast conclusions" but from my perspective, you do the same thing right now. I am amazed how we sometimes say something to others, but the same thing applies to us. I see it all the time in my life when I get angry or judgemental.

As for Gurdjieff's past, I am not too familiar with it, but I personally think a person can do many wrong in the past, but he/she can change(except psychopaths as far as I know) and can bring knowledge to the world to help others. I did many horrible things in the past, I don't think I am in a position to judge anybody for their past actions because of their lack of knowledge.

These are my thoughts about your post, for what its worth.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

Name dropping and hearsay, excellent tools for a credible argument. Sheeesh.

Baked noodles.

 

[Nawd]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

There are many people who take many influences from many other people. Does that mean no one should be quoted or studied?

 

[Jeremy F Kreuz]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

loelie,

you might wanna have a look at this thread on the forum: Hitler and Mysticism

 

[Johnno]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

Hitler and Mysticism thread is here.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=604.0

 

[gurjf]

Re: GURDJIEFF and HITLER...Message for LAURA

Then, with all this, why to speak about Gurdjieff??? How can you encourage to read his books ?

Because they have free will !! And you have yours !! Limited at some point but we all have it !!

 

[Laura]

Re: Hitler and Mysticism

I've merged two threads here since they both deal with the same topic and, had loelie used the search function, he/she wouldn't have gotten so much egg on his/her face.

 

[loelie]

Thank you for your answers, I take all this funnily!
The criticism is easy for me, indeed on I always learnt that in any search(research), it was necessary the thesis and the antithesis. Nothing is more decreasing that to consolidate in the word of the others without making the tour(ballot) before. And I am satisfied to see that the subject in already treated(handled) in this forum.
My wife framed(supervised) this weekend of the young people in a lounge(show) on the deportation in France ( périgueux ), organized with numerous war veterans and transported convicts. I I looked in to know more about it on Gurdjieff. A participant spoke about links between Hitler and the occult by looking in to know more about it thus on Gurdjieff, we have tried to see if there was a link between these two characters, in particular in the manipulation of the spirits and there surprised....
I liked well the reaction of MC, " Baked noodles ", that made a lot me laugh!!! In France, we often have no this genre of expression!
Good courage Laura, thank you still for quite this adventure.