Romanian language not as we know it

[edgitarra]

For some time I was researching about what are the origins of Romanians and if truly it is a language that derived from latin. For a couple of years some scandals started to unsettle the historical background of Romania, because some discoveries were made that might prove romanian is the mother language of latin. There are people who try to contradict this calling the study of Dacians a pseudoscience. But I will give you some info here that I found in english and maybe you have an opinion about this:

"In the past few years a new wave of nationalism has hit Romania, with it's own branch of protochronist pseudoscience which we call: dacism / dacology.

As you might know, most historians and linguists agree that the Romanian language resulted from the process of cultural latinization that occurred after the conquest of part of modern Romania by the Roman Empire, ~2000 years ago (at that time, it was populated by Dacians).

Not content with the idea that our language is the result of colonization, the nationalists have come up with a new story: actually, they say, Latin is derived from Romanian, not the other way around.

How is this possible, you ask? Their train of thought goes like this:

    Modern Romanian is actually the same language as ancient Dacian. With some changes, obviously, but everything we think is Latin about Romanian is actually Dacian.

    Ancient Latin is actually derived from Dacian in the following way: 1) Greece was created by people who originated from around the Black Sea area (Thracians). 2) Rome was created by people who originated from Greece. So "naturally" it follows that Dacians => Thracians => Greek => Romans. So when the Romans conquered Dacia, they were really just "returning home".

Some arguments they come up with to support this theory are:

    The fact that the monument dedicated to Emperor Trajan's conquest of Dacia, Trajan's Column seems to depict Romans and Dacians talking, without the need of an interpreter.

    The fact that later-period Roman statues seem to feature Dacians in preeminent roles, suggesting a sort of respect one would give to revered ancestors.

    A quote attributed to Trajan during his campaign of conquering Dacia, which shows him saying: "I am returning to the home of my ancestors".

Just this year, this theory has received unexpected support from an ex-Vatican collaborator, Micheál Ledwith, who has said the following, during a TV interview:

    "I think what is not often remembered is that Romanian, or the ancestry of Romanian, is from where the Latin language came, not vice-versa, in other words Romanian is not a Latin language, rather Latin is a Romanian language, so I want to salute those people from Bucegi mountains and around Brașov, Bucharest. You are the ones that gave the great vehicle of western culture (the Latin language) to the world."

    Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luWa_vLgc2o#t=55s

Of course, the dacists jumped all over this and gave it the sensationalist title "The secrets of the Vatican are starting to come to light!" - (even though the guy never claimed he got that info from any super-secret Vatican documents).

With serious funding from nationalist circles, they have created a pretty high-budget documentary (high-budget for Romania, that is), called "Dacians, Unsettling Truths" which you can find here, if you are interested in following this story:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PBdNU7xAcM "

source: reddit

And another one:

"A lot of scientists, linguists, archaeologists, historians etc. are considering that 8,500 years ago, Romania was the heart of the old European civilization. The new archaeological discoveries from Tartaria, (Romania), showed up written plates older than the Sumerian ones. More and more researches and studies converged to the conclusion that the Europeans are originated in a single place, the lower Danube basin. Down there, at Schela and Cladova in Romania have been discovered proves of the first European agricultural activities which appear to be even older than 10,000 years.

Out of 60 scientifically works which are covering this domain, 30 of them localize the primitive origins of the man-kind in Europe, where 24 of them are localizing this origin in the actual Romania, (Carpathian- Danubian area); 10 are indicating western Siberia, 5 Jutland and/or actual Germany room, 4 for Russia, 4 for some Asian territories, 1 for actual France area and all these recognisied despite against the huge pride of those nations.

Jean Carpantier, Guido Manselli, Marco Merlini, Gordon Childe, Marija Gimbutas, Yannick Rialland, M. Riehmschneider, Louis de la Valle Poussin, Olaf Hoekman, John Mandis, William Schiller, Raymond Dart, Lucian Cuesdean, Sbierea, A. Deac, George Denis, Mattie M.E., N. Densuseanu, B.P. Hajdeu, P Bosch, W. Kocka, Vladimir Gheorghiev, H. Henchen, B.V. Gornung, V Melinger, E. Michelet, A. Mozinski, W. Porzig, A. Sahmanov, Hugo Schmidt, W. Tomaschek, F.N. Tretiacov are among the huge number of specialists which consider Romania the place of otehr Europeans origines and Romanian the oldest language in Europe, older even than Sanskrit.

According to the researchers and scientists, the Latin comes from the old Romanian (or Thracian) and not vice versa. The so called "slave" words are in fact pure Romanian words. The so called vulgar Latin is in fact old Romanian, or Thracian language, according to the same sources...

The arguments sustaining the theories from above are very numerous and I don't want to go into them so deeply as long as the forum is and has to remain one languages dedicated, to.

In the limits of the language, please allow me to present a list of just a few (out of thousands of words), which are very similar/ even identical in Romanian and Sanskrit:

Romanian

numerals : unu, doi, trei, patru, cinci, sase, sapte...100=suta

Sanskrit

numerals: unu, dvi, tri, ciatru, penci, sas, saptan...100 = satan

then Romanian Sanskrit

acasa acasha (at home)

acu acu (now)

lup lup ( wolf)

a iubi (considered slave) iub (love)

frate vrate (brother)

camera camera (room)

limba lamba (tongue)

nepot napat (neffew)

mandru mandra (proud)

lupta lupta (fight)

pandur pandur (infanterist)

nevasta navasti (wife)

prieten prietema (friend)

pranz prans (lunch time)

Ruman Ramana (Romanian)

saptamana saptnahan (week)

struguri strughuri (grapes)

vale vale (valley)

vadana vadana (widow)

a zambi dzambaiami (to smile)

umbra dumbra (shadow)

om om (man-kind)

dusman dusman (enemy)

a invata invati (to study)

a crapa crapaiami (to break something)

naiba naiba (evil)

apa apa (water) and not AQUA like in Latin. It looks like aqua came from apa and not the other way around...

and so on for more than thousand situations...

According to M. Gimbutas, the confusion Roman (Romanian as in original language) = Roman (ancient Rom citizen), is generated by the fact that Romans and Romanians have been the same nation, the same people. The Dacians/Thracians and Romans have been twins. The illiterate peasants called Romanians, Ruman and not Roman. Why do they call so? Because RU-MANI, RA-MANI, RO-MANI, API, APULI, DACI and MAN-DA , VAL-AH are all synonyms expressing the person from the river banc or from the river valley. APII could be found under the form of mez-APPI in the ancient Italy, under he same name as the APPULI Dacians. APU-GLIA, (or Glia Romanilor in Romanian - Romanian land) can be found with this meaning only in Romanian (Glia= land)

In the Southern side of Italian "booth" exists the first neolitical site of Italy and it is called MOL-feta. The name itself has Romanian names, according to Guido A. Manselli: MOL-tzam (popular Thank you), MUL-tumire (satisfaction), na-MOL (mud); MOL-dova (province and river in Romania, Za-MOL-xis, Dacian divinity. Manselli said that this archaeological sit is 7,000 years old and has a balcanic feature.

I came up with this topic just to hear decent opinions and not banalities like those of a few days ago when while surfing for a language forum, I read all kind of suburban interventions. This topic is for people whith brain only.

As a German myself, I was pure and simple stunned by the childish commentaries regarding German Language given by some individuals, yesterday. I hope, I won't generate anything like that today...if that will happen, I sugest to the moderators to delete it.

What do you think, are you ready to take the challenge and carry on a nice discussion on this topic or I have to look for another place for it?

What do you say about these new (for me - although the theory appears to be known for long time - it has been said that Vatican preserves some secrets about the origins of us all - information obtained in the moment of St Sofia church devastation, in Constantinople, when the churches separation took place). "

source: antimoon.com


There is also another topic that is quite interesting, related to the fact that there is a location in India(punjabi language, unfortunately I wasn't able to find info about the exact location) where over 80 million people speak romanian(apparently there are over 2000 words that might be pure romanian):

"Lucian Cuesdean: ” Punjabi language, spoken in India, has 2,000 pure Romanian words, and many others sound very much alike. That is because they, the Punjabi people, are the descendants of a Getae tribe, just like Romanians, although there is about 4500 km distance between Romanians and Punjabi people.”

We have learnt in schools that Daco-Getae people would be a branch of Thracians, who used to ,exclusively, live in Dacia, current Romanian territories and that they spoke a language different from Latin.Roman Empire conquered Dacia and Dac0-Getae would, apparently, have given up their own language to learn the conquerors’s. And, this is how Romanian was born.

After 20 years of research, Dr. Cuesdean has come to the conclusion that this theory was completely fake. Cuesdean says that Getae tribes, under a different name, used to live in a very large geographical area, from Central Europe to Asia, close to China and India.

Current Punjabi population from north of India is the descendant of a tribe of Getae located in central Asia, over 2.500 years ago. These descendants of Getae speak a language close to Romanian. But, many of their Punjabi words are also common to Latin. The only problem is that 2.500 years ago, there was no Roman Empire. Which means that Getae did speak a latin language way before Roman expansion.

Getae warriors have descendants in India.

“I began my researches from the informations related to the big tribe of Masagetae, attested in Central Asia by  ancient historians and mentioned in Evagrius Scholasticus, written in VIth century after Hr. and translated into Ecclesiastical History by E. Walford in 1846, from which I quote: ” Current JAD population of North of India is the descendant of Messagetae. In Pahalavi language, Messagetae is translated the Big Jats.” I went on the trail of this population, the Big Jats. Chinese people called them Yueci, meaning Getae, talking about their domination in Punjabi. So, the Getae did live once in Punjabi. To remember: Getae-Dacians spoke the same language, as the geographer Strabon ( 60 ante Hr. -26 after Hr. ) says, which means from the Carpathians to the central Asia.”

If the Getae owned territories from Europe to Asia, if Punjabi people are their descendants, and Romanians are, themselves, the descendants of Getae, Dr. Cuesdean was curious to find out if there are any linguistic similarities between Romanians and them, by comparing both languages.

“After 20 years of research, I came to the conclusion that the 80.000.000 of people of Punjabi community speak an archaic Romanian. They use 2.000 identical words, many of them, also, common to Latin. But, if Punjabi is a language once spoken by Getae, it means that the Getae used to speak a latin idioma before birth of Roman Empire. Which leads us to the conclusion that Romanian is older than Latin itself. So, in an immemorial past, there was an unique European language, most probably the archaic Romanian, or Getae-Dacian, which through a series of changes and migrations, gave birth to all of the so-called Indo-European languages, including Latin. And the Dacian-Roman war was a fratricidal one. To this day, they speak Romanian or ARomanian from the North of Adriatic Sea to the Volga. Even more, in Kazakhstan, there are now, officially, 20.000 Romanian speakers.”

Dr. Lucian Cuesdean studied Masagetae history for over 20 years.

Dr. Cuesdean is 70 years old, PhD in Health Sciences. Before 1989 he worked in Libya several years, and Libya was part of Roman Empire. It is there that he started to look for explainations for the fact that Dacians might have given up their own language in favour of Latin and Libyans did not. In 1990, by studying all the historiography related to Getae, he discovered the informations about Masagetae, and therefore about their descentands , the Punjabi.

Herodotus wrote about the Masagetae of Asia. We can find the first attestations of Masagetae of Asia in Herodotus writings: ” Caucasus sets the barriers (Scythians) from west of Caspian Sea and then west and towards the rising sun comes a vast plain, immense (Central Asia , close to China) lost in the distance; that plain was occupied by Masagetae, agaisnt whom Cyrus wanted to send his army.”

Cyrus , the king of Persians, did fought agaisnt the Masagetae who’s leader was king Tamyris, but Cyrus’s army was defeated and Cyrus, beheaded."

Hope this is of some use for those who are interested in finding more about languages!Ed

[Laura]

Pretty fascinating and I think there may just be something to it.

[edgitarra]

Yes, I also think it is very interesting! And with time it is going to be a bigger movement of independent researchers in Romania who will fight all those years that the communists faked a lot of history. Another topic that is not in place for discussion in Rom are the stories about giant people who used to guard a mountain area that has some sort of inner caves, galleries which seem touched by a hand.
This is the translation related to the giant guys:

In February 2012, a team of geologists has been excavated in Rosia Montana, in one of the galleries Agathyrsi discovered, 5500 years ago. They found here a huge piece of stone with a composition of 15% granite powder, 30% tungsten and 55% gold powder. Agathyrsi were mixed Dacian - Scythian which lived in the area that is now Romania. Herodotus was first told about this enigmatic people, that they were very luxurious, which tattooed and wore gold jewelry.

This is an image with a big skeleton found in 1976 at Rosia Montana(I do not really know if the image is real, maybe other forum members can give a look and tell their opinion).

The slab which is perfectly polished has a length of 12 meters, a width of 6 meters and a height of 3 meters, the approximate weight of 1,700 tons, 100 tons more than the "pregnant woman stone" or slab found at Baalbek, only the gold content in it representing approx. 900 tonnes, nearly three hundred times more than would have been obtained by full recycling for 20 years the waste dumps stored for Rosia Montana gold mines exploatation, and 150 times more than all the gold extracted from the surface and from all galleries by the Agathyrsi for the Dacians and then by the Romans.

This is the cave gallery I was talking about:

What is more shocking is where this amazing discovery was made. The monument was found in the Hyperborean Gallery, located on the Corna valley below the village of Rosia Montana Corna. This place was investigated 36 years ago and because of the incredible archaeological and anthropological discoveries virtually inconceivable at that time, it was closed and then sealed under the Security command.

Miners who have been called to dig in this gallery have died. Only 4 people left alive. One of them, Ion Mois tells about the night you will not forget.
" We found a huge bone. I had never seen anything alike. "
 Maybe I should not say anything, I swore that to the communists, but I'm from Albac(commune), one of the Moti people, so I can not shut up. Here's how it was: in the winter of 76', I was called by the chief engineer and received the disposition to reopen, to enhance and electrify the old gallery 13 which remained closed since the time of the Austro-Hungaria and after the consolidation to have 2 geologists to make a research/inspect. The gallery was old, and it remained so since the time of Agathyrsi, which at the time drew from it and process the Dacian gold and silver; the gallery was out of gold many centuries before the Romans get hold of it. It is true that there are traces of the Romans, but it is clear that they were convinced of the fact very quickly and they have abandoned the place. Consolidation and electrification works have lasted almost until the summer of 77 and I had some problems with the water draining of a part of the gallery which wass flooded . Both the valves from the mine and solenoid valves to pump the water were very helpful .

Also then I found a bone washed away, so big we have never seen before. Not even seen by my comrades. After I showed the bone to the director  he handed the bone to the Security chef from Rosia Montana State Mining Enterprise and after a prosecutor questioned(interogatory) us for about four days. Like where was bone when I found it? As in what position? Like who has been with us in the mine? Like who's idea it was? How I got it and how many percent I got out of that day? Well, all kinds of puzzling questions that scare us and make us to be quiet. I shut all obvious and after we asked to sign statements, we were sent back to the gallery. At home I never told a word. I was afraid for my family.

Apparently the findings were sent to Moscow after some geologists and archeologists came and examined them.

Hopefully you will understand the translation.

[dantem]

Thanks edgitarra! This is very interesting, as no one really tracked down the origins of Latin as yet. It is thought by some that it was a totally fabricated language by the bureaucratic Roman Empire's elite, but it may be that the weren't such geniuses after all 

Is there any book around on this one?

[edgitarra]

Hello dantem, unfortunately there is no book at the moment. Perhaps there is more research to be made in order to have enough material for a book. The only material you can find is in the youtube link in the beginning post. It is a documentary about the so called real history of Dacians.

[Yozilla]

I also noticed a kind of interesting "similarity" between Greek and Latin - lots of "s" especially ending words while i was reading some stuff about Etruscans. Also lot of words in Latin/Sanskrit are still used in Dalmatia - (islands mainly)... interesting. Croatian linguists clam them to be "Hungarisms"(words adopted from Hungarian in times of Austro Hungarian Empire)  or "Latinisms", but now i wonder if those are really "Sanskrtisms". I also wonder if Alexander the Great was Romanian instead Greek (another hoax from Greek enforcers?). Also this tribe of Getae (Celts" ) in Punjabi, are they remains of "Great Celtic Empire" in which Sanskrit was spoken? So cheating "Greeks put all that in one myth about one great Greek that conquered the world - for propaganda purposes?

[seek10]

Thank you edgitarra  for the post.  Interesting topic.  Other day I was searching  india's history , kings , area of kingdoms, their relations to Greeks , Alexander's left over handlers etc to have some fresh perspective. Interestingly no kingdom lasted long , area varied from sri lanka to Iran and there are some marriages between kings of India and Greece. So  all over there are lot of  cross influences. some lasted a while, some didn't.  If British can enforce their English in their colonies so easily ( probably 100 or less years ), you can imagine how many things would have happened.

What C's said is interesting.

941016

Q: (L) What is the origin of the books of Enoch?
A: Sanskritian society in area now referred to as India.
Q: (L) What evaluation can we give the books of Enoch as far as level of truth?
A: 50% of area was destroyed in nuclear conflagration in between

timing of Enoch books are not clear except it is older than 2nd century BC

941102

Q: (L) What is the origin of the Sanskrit language?
A: Atlantis.

950318

Q: (L) What is the world's oldest language, at least of those known to today's world?
A: Sanskrit.
Q: (L) What is the origin of Sanskrit?
A: Atlantean roots.

That is more than 12,000 years before.  As per C's, At that time Atlantis is like today's NATO. Probably it is like today's English.

There is another hypothesis that people from black sea steppe's migrated to different direction due to catastrophic event probably 3600 years, some migrated  towards Greece, some towards India etc. Given how kingdoms  change so often and their variation of enforcement of language, it is quite possible all is part of the same cloth.

In case of Punjab, it is more or less on cross roads with the rest of the world. So it is a primary target  for any external influence.

[Avala]

But, isn't the Sanskrit in the root of the Latin as in majority of European languages? For example half of those words in Sanskrit-Romanian list are the same as in Serbo-Croatian which is slavic language.

[Aeneas]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. In looking on the antimoon site mentioned, I found a youtube video that had the text with pictures and maps. Even if it might have some nationalistic overtones, pictures can sometimes help: _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xia-ionsIg

[Aeneas]

Interestingly a key ruler who was a contemporary of Ceasar was murdered in the year 44, same year as Ceasar:

Burebista (Boerebista), a contemporary of Julius Caesar, ruled Geto-Dacian tribes between 82 BC and 44 BC. He thoroughly reorganised the army and attempted to raise the moral standard and obedience of the people by persuading them to cut their vines and give up drinking wine.[40] During his reign, the limits of the Dacian Kingdom were extended to their maximum. The Bastarnae and Boii were conquered, and even the Greek towns of Olbia and Apollonia on the Black Sea (Pontus Euxinus) recognized Burebista's authority. In 53 BC, Caesar stated that the Dacian territory was on the eastern border of the Hercynian Forest.[9]

Burebista suppressed the indigenous minting of coinages by four major tribal groups, adopting imported or copied Roman denarii as a monetary standard[11] During his reign, Burebista transferred Geto-Dacians capital from Argedava to Sarmizegetusa Regia.[41][42] For at least one and a half centuries, Sarmizegetusa was the Dacians' capital and reached its peak under King Decebalus. The Dacians appeared so formidable that Caesar contemplated an expedition against them, which his death in 44 BC prevented. In the same year Burebista was murdered, and the kingdom was divided into four (later five) parts under separate rulers.

From Wikipedia: _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia#Burebista



Here is a picture that shows the central position of Romania and the Danube river. A central position.

Romanian language not as we know it

[SeekinTruth]

Very intriguing. Thanks for sharing, edgitarra. It's not just the lack of any real evidence of where Latin came from, but it seems nobody is really sure of where the very first people on the Italian peninsula, including Rome, came from either. I'm just reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus' Roman Antiquities and he starts with trying to identify the original inhabitants and settlers of Italy, and doesn't seem even as a first century BC historian to know for sure. He mentions conflicting accounts from different historians and writers over the centuries. His preferred claims seem to place the original settlers coming to Italy from Greece dozens of generations before the Trojan War. I think there might be something to the Romanian / Draco-Getae claims, too.

[aurora]

dusman dusman (enemy)

The same as in Turkish (düşman -ş is pronounced as sh). Have we imported this word from Romanian or vice versa. The Turkish site has been hacked so I could not check.

There are Turkish words in Romanian like çorba - soup (chorba).

[edgitarra]

With serious funding from nationalist circles, they have created a pretty high-budget documentary (high-budget for Romania, that is), called "Dacians, Unsettling Truths" which you can find here, if you are interested in following this story:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PBdNU7xAcM "

I would highly recommend to watch this documentary for those interested in finding more material. I am posting it again because it is easier to be found, rather than the post above.

[SeekinTruth]

dusman dusman (enemy)

The same as in Turkish (düşman -ş is pronounced as sh). Have we imported this word from Romanian or vice versa. The Turkish site has been hacked so I could not check.

There are Turkish words in Romanian like çorba - soup (chorba).

Hope this is not going too off topic. Armenians use dusman (yes, it's pronounced dushman) too, because many Armenians use Turkish words. Everyone, including myself, knows that it's not Armenian - we have an Armenian word, tshnami, for enemy - but the Turkish word IS used rather commonly. Same with other Turkish words like chorba for soup (aboor is the Armenian word), lots of Russian words, Arabic, and some Persian. It especially depends on where the Armenian people lived in terms of which foreign words they use habitually.

The point being that over many generations of common usage, the foreign words become part of a language. This seems to have happened most already with Persian/Farsi. Some words that I thought were actually Armenian, I've learned in the last couple of decades are originally Persian/Farsi. And there doesn't seem to be another word for them in Armenian usage anymore. And this does and may happen in other languages too. Just thought I'd mention all this because it shows that when different peoples come in contact with one another over any considerable time, they tend to pick up/exchange cultural aspects including language.

[ytain]

In regard to Romanian language, I want to offer also a different perspective from a deaf's viewpoint. In Romanian language there are no two or more words that look same when lipread, the phonetic rules are more stricter, that applies to almost all words of Romanian origin. When I lipread in English, it is more difficult to ascertain which words are being spoken because many words look same, like these three words: mall, ball, poll. And English has no strict phonetic rules that applies to all words, forcing me to create additional memory (phonetic representation for every word) for the whole English vocabulary. From what I observe of myself during lipreading in English, I seem to be slower than in Romanian (biased here obviously since Romanian is my mother tongue), and I seem to have less time to ascertain whether the speaker would try to manipulate me or not.
I wonder if the English language contains some sort of obfuscation effect on the phonetic aspect of the language making it more difficult whether the speaker manipulates the audience or not?

Ytain