2 Enemies – Obstacles

[Mountain Crown]

[Quote author=agni]there still could be our limited representation of natural forces out there. We are not on that field yet, IMHO it's pointless to see them as enemy.[/quote]

I'm curious as to whether you've read either Keel or Vallee.

It matters not about calling them lizzies, it's a term often used here to designate 4D entropic beings.

but the real enemy of that sheep are themselves, their ignorance and unawareness.

I can't read this from the story. It's clearly about mind control and the need to awaken, the sheep aren't blamed in anyway for their victimhood. Seems to me that the allegory is more to describe the truth of illusion being mistaken for reality and that the sheep continue to be sources for consumption as always.

 

[agni]

[Quote author=agni]there still could be our limited representation of natural forces out there. We are not on that field yet, IMHO it's pointless to see them as enemy.

I'm curious as to whether you've read either Keel or Vallee.

It matters not about calling them lizzies, it's a term often used here to designate 4D entropic beings.[/quote]

No, I have not read Keel or Valle, it is still does not change the fact that this is hypothesis (though working hypothesis). I admit though, perhaps I have tough time understanding relevance of 4D influences that can be meaningfully applied to work.

I doubt that 4D influence, their control methods, their relation to us can be understood far more then 2D understands 3D relatively speaking. This is not the same playing field, and further I would question if their enemy status is any different from our enemy status in eyes of 2D beings.

but the real enemy of that sheep are themselves, their ignorance and unawareness.

I can't read this from the story. It's clearly about mind control and the need to awaken, the sheep aren't blamed in anyway for their victimhood. Seems to me that the allegory is more to describe the truth of illusion being mistaken for reality and that the sheep continue to be sources for consumption as always.

I can. But gotta love that subjectivity thing :) I can't say that it's hyperdimensional mind control or their influence that wreck the havoc on the planet, it's us humans (and sub human psychopaths). We have allowed them to do what is being done due to own ignorance and undesire to face reality of things. Sure forces that try to rule the world are nasty, they have success in control, but what stops humanity from changing course of things ? People are greedy, care only about themselves pretty much, bury their heads in sand. Is it mind control that does that ? Or is it simple lack of desire to face reality or take responsibility ? How many people don't give a flying thing about what is going on the planet and human suffering ? When I converse with people, I get an impression that people are way more readily to fight some imaginary external enemy, thinking it will solve issues, then to confront the enemy in front of their nose - ourselves. I understand, it's easier this way. For own comfortable illusion that is. People spend centuries and centuries fighting some external enemy, which results in nothing but further extermination, more imprisonment and more suffering. Mind control is only as good, as buttons it can push. And while yes, outside mind control is possible and most likely is in place, I think it is something no one will be able to deal with, unless buttons this mind control can push are still there. So, I do not see how awareness of that outside other *D influence can be of any use to work, right now at least, while we seem to succumb to illusion on our own will and while our machine lacks driver in charge.

Mind control is spectacular, but not that spectacular :) With proper technology in place it is more or less relatively easily can be carried out in 3D by very same 3D beings, it can be done without 4D input. The 4D enemy as you call it can take out anyone or influence anyone without much effort, just like we can 2D, only, faster, better, more easily and more accessibly (just by looking at geometrical progression of ease of interactions between 1D/2D/3D). There is simply nothing you will be able to do against it unless same level field is reached. We rob free will from lower Ds, we manipulate them, we control them to certain degree, yet does it stop them from awareness advancement ? I do not think so. What makes you think things are much different for us ?

I think mind control in terms of work is little bit too exaggerated. It's like blaming influence of honey for being too tasty, while stuffing mouthful and unable to stop.

But hey, I am just an idiot and little I know ;)

 

[Menna]

Its not just used here ...

_http://thedent.com/horn.html

I am not putting this here as a credible source just saying that other people/groups reference "The lizzies" and both are describing outer space alien beings

I agree ignorance and unawareness are big obstacles

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi again agni,

My impression is that you are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Again, I think you would gain much by reading Vallee and Keel. The evidence for hyper dimensional control against our best wishes is much more than that which would reduce an hypothesis to a marginal status.

What you say about the danger of projecting everything on an imaginary "enemy" has merit, but to be fair to Menna, you may have read this into his post.

Mind control is only as good, as buttons it can push. And while yes, outside mind control is possible and most likely is in place, I think it is something no one will be able to deal with, unless buttons this mind control can push are still there

This reads as a lack of understanding of mind control techniques and their implications, and also may betray a kind of denial of how truly horrifying the situation is.

 

[Psalehesost]

Mind control is only as good, as buttons it can push. And while yes, outside mind control is possible and most likely is in place, I think it is something no one will be able to deal with, unless buttons this mind control can push are still there

This reads as a lack of understanding of mind control techniques and their implications, and also may betray a kind of denial of how truly horrifying the situation is.

There is also the question of FRV and vulnerability to those things. I think agni is quite right in that focus - to be useful - should be on sorting out our basic issues. Control certainly seems to exist, probably operating far beyond what we can imagine, but the only way to begin to move out of its grip - to the extent possible - is to sort out our machine.

And in looking at the results of what Work can do for those who really succeed at it, the possibilities of thereby freeing oneself from such influences seem rather significant.

Or as Laura wrote elsewhere, which I think also generally applies here:

Yes, there are all kinds of "beaming" things going on, but that has much less ability to affect mass consciousness than you seem to think. Again, mass consciousness is what is going on inside every individual as a result of their material experiences, all added together. Most "beaming" activity can only affect an individual who has some frequency already within them that resonates to it. Rather often, this frequency is based on actual physical stuff like parasitic infestations, candida, weakened physiology from wrong diet, etc.

Also when it comes to hyperdimensional aspects, one thing to consider is the "as above, so below" factor - our basic issues as we perceive them in 3D may well be part of a system of control as perceived from 4D - and hence, working within our 3D framework from our 3D perspective to sort out our 3D issues may well mean sorting out our unseen 4D issues; maybe not all, but many.

That said, I think gaining knowledge in these questions is also quite worthwhile; on some level, it might well do its part as well - not alone, but in conjunction with serious Work.

 

[Mountain Crown]

That said, I think gaining knowledge in these questions is also quite worthwhile; on some level, it might well do its part as well - not alone, but in conjunction with serious Work.

In light of the evidence this is the best approach.

Once the necessity to Work on ourselves is understood, is it necessarily threatened by acknowledging hyperdimensional control?

 

[anart]

Hi again agni,

My impression is that you are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I think all that agni is saying is that it is counterproductive to the Work to blame things on outside forces. I think that is correct. In Work context, a focus on outside forces is almost entirely detrimental, since the Work is about the self. Yes, we are constantly acted upon by outside forces (some of which are beyond our powers of perception) but it's not necessarily beneficial to 'put blame' on that when thinking in Work terms.

I think it might be you, Jerry, who isn't seeing things quite as they are in this context.

This reads as a lack of understanding of mind control techniques and their implications, and also may betray a kind of denial of how truly horrifying the situation is.

No, I think it reads as placing the onus on the individual to clean their machine (physical and psychological) to the extent that such things are minimally effective.

 

[Mountain Crown]

but it's not necessarily beneficial to 'put blame' on that when thinking in Work terms.

I just didn't think Menna wrote anything suggesting this.

 

[anart]

but it's not necessarily beneficial to 'put blame' on that when thinking in Work terms.

I just didn't think Menna wrote anything suggesting this.

But can you see agni's point, or are you just trying to 'win' an argument?

 

[Mountain Crown]

but it's not necessarily beneficial to 'put blame' on that when thinking in Work terms.

I just didn't think Menna wrote anything suggesting this.

But can you see agni's point, or are you just trying to 'win' an argument?

I saw it:

[quote author=Jerry]The main point is that we are vulnerable to attack because we are mechanical, and the front line of defense is to know the machine.[/quote]

It didn’t feel as arguing, rather that there might be an issue agni has with the sleeping multitudes (if so, it’s understandable) flavoring his response.

Menna merely revealed an understanding of the machine from reading The Wave and that there were obstacles to the Work (“enemies” was his term) then inquired of us if there were others.

I tried to express that we have information supported with ample evidence elaborating on the situation so why marginalize it unnecessarily? All knowledge is useful to the Work if properly applied.

Also, agni’s assignation of blame on the sheep seemed to me off kilter and maybe indicative of a need to read more on the topics of the UFO phenomenon as hyperdimensional control and mind programming.

 

[Menna]

FWIW I am not sitting in a corner and sulking blaming these alien beings - just wanted some advice, insight, experience. It opened my eyes a lil more when angi said that there is manipulation from 3D beings. I believe that I read in the wave that these outer space / hyperdemensional beings cant affect free will. So that limits them in some way. The fact that 3D beings have the same technology or means to manipulate is almost worse in a way because people on this planet affect others free will day in and day out.

After my relationship I have seriously reviewed it as objectively as possible at my current level of being and one of the things that I have noticed is its better for me to live life NOT affecting anyone’s free will let them do as they may and you do the same. Living like this is more peaceful for me. Think about it If you are trying to manipulate, influence others then you are putting energy into another person trying to predict or control an outcome...Ehhhh so draining

 

[anart]

It didn’t feel as arguing, rather that there might be an issue agni has with the sleeping multitudes (if so, it’s understandable) flavoring his response.

I think you're projecting.

Menna merely revealed an understanding of the machine from reading The Wave and that there were obstacles to the Work (“enemies” was his term) then inquired of us if there were others.

I tried to express that we have information supported with ample evidence elaborating on the situation so why marginalize it unnecessarily? All knowledge is useful to the Work if properly applied.

No, you've missed the point. Menna was quite clear and no one could reasonably take from his post that he's (as he put it) 'sitting in a corner blaming these alien beings'. You, Jerry, have developed that line of thought because you are projecting onto what agni said - and - you are being characteristically stubborn about it.

Also, agni’s assignation of blame on the sheep seemed to me off kilter and maybe indicative of a need to read more on the topics of the UFO phenomenon as hyperdimensional control and mind programming.

As always, it's better to look at your own behavior and motivations before deciding what it is another person should think or do, based on your projections. You projected onto agni's post all sorts of motivations that are likely not there, and in doing that, you missed the main point. Then, you stubbornly defended your own projections, missing the whole point. See?

 

[Mountain Crown]

See?

I'm looking at it, nothing to say at the moment.

 

[agni]

I think all that agni is saying is that it is counterproductive to the Work to blame things on outside forces.

Yes, this is what I am trying to say.

but it's not necessarily beneficial to 'put blame' on that when thinking in Work terms.

I just didn't think Menna wrote anything suggesting this.

He did not say blame, it is a poor choice of words on my part. I have associated enemy/obstacle => blame on my own.

[quote author=Jerry]
Also, agni’s assignation of blame on the sheep seemed to me off kilter and maybe indicative of a need to read more on the topics of the UFO phenomenon as hyperdimensional control and mind programming.[/quote]

I am not blaming sheep per se. I am not judging anyone in that scenario. It's just a dynamic of that interaction in terms of action, responsibility & consequence. Everyone plays their part in that interaction, there are merely consequences for sheep choice of being asleep and manipulative actions of Evil Magician. He will do what he does, and sheep will do what they do. Clearly Magician has no intentions to stop, only way for this dynamic to stop is action and responsibility of choice made by sheep, otherwise it will continue indefinitely. Is it unfortunate they are in such situation ? Most certainly. But no one is going to be responsible for their escape, but sheep themselves. It's not about assigning blame roles. It just is. And I am sorry I just do not see how knowledge of hyperdimensional influece or UFO is going to be of any use to them to assist with the escape from that dynamic.. If anything, it might become an obstacle for them on its own.

 

[anart]

And I am sorry I just do not see how knowledge of hyperdimensional influece or UFO is going to be of any use to them to assist with the escape from that dynamic.. If anything, it might become an obstacle for them on its own.

Well, to be fair, knowledge is paramount in being able to escape, so you're splitting some hairs here that don't need to be split. Knowledge of hyperdimensional realities is part of knowledge about this reality - so it's important to realize that ignorance isn't best. It's just that, from a Work standpoint, the focus should be on the Work and those things we can affect, not on things being due to uncontrollable outside forces. I'm not sure that I'm being clear enough, since you don't seem to be grasping that basic concept.