A Question for the Cs (and the rest of the forum)

Yeah Daenerys,

So many red flags that if there was a bull, he wouldn't know what to do with himself. :lol: The way they speak is a very good sign of their authoritarian leanings, for but one example:
A true initiate always seeks peace and harmony, not discord and division.

Oh yeah baby, we know for a fact what a true initiate is, seeks and does, so do what we tell you, if you seek to develop, for we descend from the masters of old. :rolleyes:
 
bngenoh said:
Yeah Daenerys,

So many red flags that if there was a bull, he wouldn't know what to do with himself. :lol: The way they speak is a very good sign of their authoritarian leanings, for but one example:
A true initiate always seeks peace and harmony, not discord and division.

Oh yeah baby, we know for a fact what a true initiate is, seeks and does, so do what we tell you, if you seek to develop, for we descend from the masters of old. :rolleyes:
Anything that doesn't consider the law of 3 is paramoralistic at best! There is no "always" or "never" for a true initiate, there is no absolute right or wrong, there is no correct way to be or to do anything in an absolute sense, except to say that one strives to gain knowledge and become more conscious, and even that is different based on situation.
 
SAO said:
bngenoh said:
Yeah Daenerys,

So many red flags that if there was a bull, he wouldn't know what to do with himself. :lol: The way they speak is a very good sign of their authoritarian leanings, for but one example:
A true initiate always seeks peace and harmony, not discord and division.

Oh yeah baby, we know for a fact what a true initiate is, seeks and does, so do what we tell you, if you seek to develop, for we descend from the masters of old. :rolleyes:
Anything that doesn't consider the law of 3 is paramoralistic at best! There is no "always" or "never" for a true initiate, there is no absolute right or wrong, there is no correct way to be or to do anything in an absolute sense, except to say that one strives to gain knowledge and become more conscious.


It sounded good though, huh? No, we do not ever want division between ourselves and pathologicals! :) Just turn that other cheek and all will be well. Jeez.
 
[quote author=divine science]
We teach and practice theurgy, which is the operational heart of the otherwise philosophical system called hermeticism.
[/quote]

Hermes Trismegistus from whom the hermetic system is said to have originated, has been discussed by the C's.
[quote author=C's transcripts 941016]
Q: (L) Who was Hermes Trismegistus?
A: Traitor to court of Pharaoh Rana.
Q: (L) Who is Pharaoh Rana?
A: Egyptian leader of spiritual covenant.
Q: (L) In what way was Hermes a traitor?
A: Broke covenant of spiritual unity of all peoples in area now known as Middle East.
Q: (L) Who did Hermes betray?
A: Himself; was power hungry.
[/quote]

The philosophical side of hermeticism as outlined by a book called Kybalion has been discussed in this thread .

[quote author=divine science]
Perhaps the most distinguishing factor of our specific lineage of the theurgic tradition is our great emphasis on practice. This system is highly practical in nature, and every student must be thoroughly devoted to the practices.
[/quote]

There is not much detail on practices in the website except for a reference to Franz Bardon's "Inititation into Hermetics".

[quote author=divine science]
Only two practices were chosen from Initiation into Hermetics by Ramose and Veos for integration into the school: the creation of the soul mirrors, and the accumulation of the vital force. Both of these are universal practices, found in all spiritual traditions, and Bardon’s frame for their practice was chosen for its simplicity.
[/quote]

The "soul mirror" creation practice according to Bardon consists of recapitulating one's life events and cataloging every positive and negative character trait. Once catalogued, each trait - positive and negative - is ascribed to one of the four elements (fire water earth air). A few of Bardon's examples: negative traits are anger (fire) , gossip (air), melancholy (earth), shyness (water) ; positive traits are courage (fire), optimism (air), compassion (water) endurance (earth). Thus two mirrors are created: a black one with evil qualities and white one with noble qualities. This activity is to be kept private and according to Bardon, "none but the owner has any right to look into them at all".

This is simplistic black and white view of human character traits without any sense of context. Based on what we have learnt from cognitive science, it is also likely to be pretty inaccurate as mirrors without feedback from others.

Regarding the source of their school, the website is quite secretive. It traces its lineage to antiquity. In the faq section, in answering connections to Golden Dawn, they state

[quote author=divine science]
The number of valid Golden Dawn groups today is likely few, but to those that are sanctioned or were begun with permission, and can draw a direct initiatic line back to Samuel MacGregor Mathers, we have nothing but the greatest regard. It is a beautiful and intelligent system, and being based on a number of ancient theurgic principles, even shares some commonalities with our own system.
[/quote]

Mathers is described as being part of Masonic and Rosicrucian orders. He is described as being eccentric and secretive - in "true Rosicrucian style" (C's said something like Rosicrucian move like thieves in the night). He was also at one time friend and teacher and later enemy of Aleister Crowley.

Back to divine science: their definition of magic
[quote author=divine science]
Magic is the understanding of natural and divine laws, and their conjoined realization and application towards the accomplishment of enlightenment.
.........................
Magic is “divine” because a great deal of its knowledge is usually preterhuman in origin, and because it deals essentially with spiritual laws that supersede the physical world. So, in one sense, it is divine because it is not inherently physical. In another sense, magic is divine because its highest fruits are only achievable by those who have sublimated their character into a noble and righteous status, and because it’s ultimate aim is the realization of God within the self.

To conform to our scriptures, therefore, magic is holy because its aim is The Good, in so far as something is defined as holy in accordance to its reference to The Good. This holiness, this divinity, is the key aspect of magic which separates it from sorcery. For, as we are told by no less an authority than Plato, wisdom is divine. Following this, by such an authority as Paracelsus, whom all will agree to have been an excellent and singularly accomplished magician, we are taught that “magic is wisdom, but there is no wisdom in sorcery.” Assuming them both to be correct, and in tune with the one art of magic which unites them across the centuries, we will then observe that magic is wisdom, and wisdom is divine.
[/quote]

This line of (self-referential) reasoning about the holiness of magic leads them to conclude
that

[quote author=divine science]
Properly understood, if we make “magic” to be the understanding of the universe and its forces, then Theurgy is the application of that understanding to divine and noble ends.
[/quote]

and so

[quote author=divine science]
Theurgy is always beneficent in nature. Be it the spiritual evolution of the individual, the exaltation of the soul or Godhead, the transmutation of the gross into the fine, or the protection of the quality of life throughout the human race, the work and aim of Theurgy is firstly beneficial to the magician, through whom others may come to be benefited.
[/quote]

To sum up,
My general take on all magickal schools -white or black - is that the line of force is gaining power over elements and forces. White magicians claim to use such powers for benevolent purposes - whether there is credible data to support such a claim is questionable. In a STS world, there is a default magnetic attraction towards power - whether it is consciously acknowledged or not. So imo, success in magickal paths may make a person a more potent servant to the 4D STS overlords - or otherwise, they would be "sheep dreaming that they are magicians".

fwiw
 
I thank all contributors for their time and effort, and for setting the record straight while pointing out references and links I will go study asap. Boy, have I made a grave error of judgment! But I'm still very glad I posted my summary, as I'm here to learn and this feedback shows how much discernment I'm still lacking in this particular case and maybe overall as well.
Daenerys said:
Based on everything I am reading and putting into context, I do not think it could be a B influence proper, as it is an act of commanding, not asking at its root, which can been seen subtly all throughout the text in reference to power,magic, taking essences into the self, etc. It is my opinion that it is STS masked very well for the more intelligent individuals to fall into its trap, as there is a lot of truth, but subtle lies and twists.
Guilty as charged.
I'm reminded of remarks by Laura in the context of Cointelpro (paraphrasing): No matter who you are, no matter what you are or how smart you are, out there is a website, or a program, or a group, or an activity specially tailored to take you in, to make you swallow the bait and succumb to a process of 'bidding'. I really feel like a fool now, to have been taken in so completely and without sufficient distrust to words shrouded in relative secrecy about their actual real life practices and results. But that's what happened. I can see that now, thanks to all the help given.

As I was reading these materials and busy crossreferencing and such, I found myself reliving several episodes, from distant or not so distant pasts, in my own path toward this community, and that has biased and clouded my judgment via some sort of sentimentality, I guess. I've encountered several instances of personal déjà vue while reading, because I've been in the vicinity of those theories and practices more than once, but never saw any need nor point in my participating or partaking in those. But that fostered a false sense of being in the know about these things, which has been thoroughly remedied now, I hope. Much work to do.

In said process of reading etcetera, I also discovered why the original poster, Wu Wei Wu, probably went about his/her way to formulate the initial question in the manner s/he did, and I understood much better the reluctance shown in being straightforward by directly mentioning this website and 'school'. The responses given show with total clarity all, or at least the most important snags involved -- which I should have seen myself as well, because I know many of those already and recognized them immediately when confronted with them in the previous posts.
I can also report I felt a similar kind of reluctance while writing the summary as posted and even more so when I finally hit the postbutton. There was a clearly recognizable feeling of distraught which I discarded, not realizing what it meant.

I hope there is no necessity at this junction to answer all posts in further detail, as the gist of what happened to me and with me has been clarified sufficiently, I presume. I have to say, this is tough: to realize there is not sufficient inbuilt immunity in me against such happenings at the moment, and although one has to be always vigilant and alert, it's much easier said than done. That's what I think I've witnessed here, thanks to you all, once again.
 
obyvatel said:
The philosophical side of hermeticism as outlined by a book called Kybalion has been discussed in this thread .

Indeed, and on that thread you said this:

obyvatel said:
The overall feel I got is STS - this refers to the motivation of the authors rather than the principles themselves

...to which I seem to be agreeing. Reads and feels like there is Gnosis there, but with the uni-contextual, uni-versal, monistic language overlay, so much Value seems to be "cut out". What's left of Gnosis seems to be only that which serves the author's purposes. It was actually a bit of a nauseating experience to read all that thread just now and perceive this use-misuse of Gnosis. Many thanks for these posts, obyvatel.

obyvatel said:
[...]
This is simplistic black and white view of human character traits without any sense of context.

Yep, the 'boolean dialetic' word count almost burned out my calculator.

obyvatel said:
divine science] This holiness said:
divine science] To conform to our scriptures said:
To sum up,
My general take on all magickal schools -white or black - is that the line of force is gaining power over elements and forces.

From another perspective, Gurdjieff certainly seemed to know his classifications when he used the phrase "just another ism", eh?

So, I now see Theurgy under this philosophical side of hermeticism and as packaged with pretty 'divine science' as just another 'dialectical monism'. Another expression of a uni-temporal, uni-contextual, uni-versal reality. But reality is multi-temporal, multi-contextual, multi-versal and quantum--as I understand it--even in my own local context of being. Hermeticism as a closed-system 'state' will most likely become just a dream in the past, as living reality (Quantum Being) continues its relentless, unstoppable, true becoming...
 
I've come to some sort of a realization which I want to note down right here in this thread, just in case someone else might benefit from seeing it all spelled out in so many words.

While following the provided links, recapitulating the how and why of my predicament and my grave error of judgment, reading around and digging deeper by meditating and so on, I ran across this (from http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Predator's_Mind):
The key idea is that these cosmic predators gave man their own mind. This is reasonable in light of much other material. At the human level, a system based on exploitation and consuming and control is seen to shape people in its own image: The slave tends to dream of becoming a master rather than of abolishing slavery. Any organization based on dominance naturally takes the form of a pyramid with few at the top and most at the bottom. For man to be the bottom or in some cases intermediate level of such a system, man must have the attributes of the dominators, only at a reduced scale. [bold, mine]
Rereading that snippet in this specific context, it finally dawned upon me in a visceral sort of way how perfidiously a system of magic[k] and theurgy exploits and reinforces this dream of the slave to become like a master and why those practicing it, have to resort to their pathetic secret rituals, masquerades, pomp and circumstance, their crossdressing travesties, their poorly adorned hierarchical system of rewards and punishments, and whatnot. Their whole endeavour indeed never leaves the STS dimension for one bit, all the while insinuating the opposite. It suggests being an escape route while in actual fact it's only an elaborate detour into increasingly fuller entrenched entrapment.

Likewise, abolishing slavery by revolts or revolutions, by petitioning and legislation, or by different combinations of those means, never ever touches very deeply upon the ingrained slave mentality -- not even when the self organizing slaves and their unions try to manage their internal affairs differently, i.e. cooperative and egalitarian in stead of outright commanding and in top down hierarchical rank and file. The influence of ponerization from the surrounding unchanged institutions guarantees there will be no other result than a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" type of circulation of power elites who only differ in their theatrical displays, but not really in any substance.

Elementary, my dear Watson!

My personal problem with discernment and judgment in this particular case stems mainly from having actively tried both these paths to a large extent and attributing the failures and meager results of both to lack of perseverance, to wrong strategies, or to shortcomings where 'others' or 'circumstances' were to blame for. I didn't know any better then and that still haunts me now from time to time.

On top of that there is also this remark by obyvatel on the Kybalion (from http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,16419.msg141588.html#msg141588):
Hi Jacksun,
You want to read the text with your own corrective interpretations. But the kind of word replacements you are talking about are like sugar-coating a bitter pill imo. Reading texts with corrective interpretation is a potential slippery slope if one does not have a very well-developed sense of discrimination. I have read texts like this with my own corrections in the past without having a strong sense of discrimination. Off course my self importance told me at that time that I already had developed perspicacity but it was false. I believe that the end result was a detrimental effect on my slumbering emotional center - it was not conducive to waking up. But that is just my experience. It is your choice - take my input fwiw.
Directly followed by this remark of Laura:
Probably the safest attitude to take when reading any text is to assume that it IS disinfo and actively look for it. Kinda like Gurdjieff's attitude about people: assume they are dog poo and let them prove otherwise.
The not so funny thing is that I already had read those remarks prior to this thread and still failed to heed and apply them when it really mattered.

Be that as it may, contrarily these snippets at the same time clearly illustrate how completely different it is to be attempting to do the 4Th Way Work, with the aim to actualize a real escape route by changing internally first, through cooperative endeavours to find objective truth about all these matters and only trying to practice the results thereof when arrived on the solid ground of tested and proved knowledge about the reality in which we operate and not before having reached the necessary level of being.
How lucky am I (and are we all) to have found, and to contribute to a community which practices without preaching, teaches and learns without coercing and does real research with an open mind to only find ever expanding provisional results never written in stone. And then does not say: "take it or leave it", but only: "correct me if I'm wrong". Really remarkable!

Thank you all for being here and for reading this. Hope this helps a bit.
 
Palinurus said:
I've come to some sort of a realization which I want to note down right here in this thread, just in case someone else might benefit from seeing it all spelled out in so many words....Their whole endeavour indeed never leaves the STS dimension for one bit, all the while insinuating the opposite. It suggests being an escape route while in actual fact it's only an elaborate detour into increasingly fuller entrenched entrapment.

Buddy said:
:jawdrop: Only awesome!

ditto Buddy
 
Although I had planned to write a detailed response when this topic was particularly active, I never got around to it.

Nevertheless it is important that I update the community to which I posed my question the events that have transpired.

I have concluded that The Divine Science is definitely not a 4th Way group. Part of me wanted this to be so, since it had so many trappings and its teachings many similarities to ideas that I was used too. However, it lacked the depth, the concreteness, of the Gurdjieffian material or the research approach of this community.

Other flaws in their reasoning which I was hesitant to take to heart have already been posed by members of the group in this topic.

At present my fellowship with them has dulled. Although many of the participants are indeed keen and devoted seekers of the truth, I am one of the only particularly critical thinkers of the group. I maintain membership but have not decided where to go from here. I have debated from freezing my participation with them and leaving, and keeping my membership open and continuing exercises that align with what I know is useful(such as exercises related to self-remembering). I should comment that my heart, or some intuition in me was not 'there' as it has always been for 4th way material. I kept this intuition in mind and treated the group wearily, but that is as far as I followed it.

Whether it is entirely a disinformation group existing solely for the purpose of deception, that I do not know. I am inclined to think not. But it is clear that they are not what I first thought them to be, and not my ideal vessel for development.

I appreciate the time and effort the community at large put into this topic. It certainly opened my eyes to areas that I had not considered.

I hope the group will not begrudge my participation here.
 
Hi Wu Wei Wu,
Incidentally I was wondering about you a few days back. It is good to see you posting again. :)
 
Hello everyone, i came across the website of this topic while looking for an article of my teacher and ended up discovering his and the school i'm being educated in was mentioned here. While there are posts i agree and disagree about , one thing i've come to discover is that, there is a certain difference between knowing things and experiencing them. I have been a student of the school for almost 2 years and it is not my intention to advertise my school, but since the school's name has been mentioned on other forums as well, and that teachers were aware of it, you might be interested to click on the website link(link removed by moderator) The enrollment period is now open and if you click on the application button, you may see that most of your questions and confusions have been answered in the brief article that you agree before applying.

That's all. Have peaceful and pleasant days.
And thank you for sharing your time to read my post.
 
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