A study and critique of mysticism

[paralleloscope]

It is easy to get lost in words: disinterest, detachment etc. The point is "to be in the world but not of it"

It is indeed very easy to become lost in words and their exact meanings.

For exact understanding exact language is necessary. And the study of systems of ancient knowledge begins with the study of a language which will make it possible to establish at once exactly what is being said, from what point of view, and in what connection. This new language contains hardly any new terms or new nomenclature, but it bases the construction of speech upon a new principle, namely the principle of relativity, that is to say, it introduces relativity into all concepts and thus makes possible an accurate determination of the angle of thought, for what precisely ordinary language lacks are expressions of relativity.

We may explore the relations of the words to their respective sytem as they may not imply the same in all contexts. Take ego for example, a very general term which in subjective fashion may mean anything between 'identifying beast' to a freudian concept of mind, a placeholder for easy abstraction. Many teachings hold "to be in the world but not of it" but may be inherently unaware of the monotheistic traps, OPs and STS implications in our psyche, which makes jumping or forcing oneself to the fourth state of consciousness less response able.

I studied the course of miracles for a while, some years back. A modern christian monistic teaching with heavy emphasis on forgiveness of the duality of ego (illusion), negating ones way to the holy spirit. No weigth put on psychological deficiencies other than bundling it all up into the madness of ego. It begins, (and summarizes):

Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God.

The ego is the unreal, which includes every interaction in the body. What I have observed in people practicing this kind of heavy negation is they are put to sleep, in thinking that the ego is a dreamstate including life in the body, one has to become still or good enough to hear the holy spirit answer ones plea for forgiveness, though it is implied that external interactions should be made, they are mere vehicles for forgiveness, detaching away of the ego burden. The Course is packed with circular logic preying on simplistic salvation storytelling toward mystical love. I would almost posit that forgiveness is the understanding which Self remembering brings to the table.

I am still working on my skills in discerning sytems from each other, thank you Obyvatel for making this distinction on point of the third state of consciousness.

 

[Buddy]

It is easy to get lost in words: disinterest, detachment etc. The point is "to be in the world but not of it".

I'm probably being a bit picky, but the above strikes me as a bit odd considering the subject under discussion.

I would think that if Meister Eckehart had said that to a student, the student would then have his understanding (such as it is) confined to the intellectual center. I've made this mistake many times, and that's fine if that's the goal, but in order to actually achieve the state: "to be in the world but not of it", and to be able to measure one's attainment, and whether or not one is fooling oneself, wouldn't it be important that the student have precise, contextual understandings of each applicable word and have less of a casual attitude towards those concepts?

I agree that it is easy to get lost in words, but fwiw, that wouldn't relieve me of the responsibility of iterating for feedback in order to achieve clarity and more and more precision. Am I making any sense?

 

[Leo40]

Thank you all for your replies. At the moment I am reading "Lost Christianity".
Like many of us here I have long searched for practical instructions to find out
who I am and what I am supposed to do.
I certainly appreciate the language problem especially when dealing with texts from
an earlier time. Every word we use carries our own meaning which was mechanically
aquired during our "education". Therefore observing these mechanisms in oneself
is the beginning; no longer is it possible to deny one's state of a reaction machine.
The closer one approaches the state of "emptyness" or "a quiet mind" the more fear
raises up. What if I discover that "there is nobody there"?
Sorry, I am way off topic.
When building a house one has to start with the foundation.
I will read ISOTM again, it's been a while, and also the cassiopaedia to become more
familiar with word definitions.

 

[Gertrudes]

I hope this isn't too much noise, but I have been meaning to thank Obyvatel and all the others who have participated in this discussion, this thread has helped me a great deal to get a deeper understanding of what can happen when progressing in one's life journey, the hidden traps, and the growing of a soul.

I really have nothing to add, except for my gratitude.
Obyvatel, you have clarified for me a few things that I realized weren't very clear on Gurdjieff's teachings. By reading your comparing of his words with the words of others I feel that I have gained a broader understanding as in, more pieces of the puzzle. I remember reading the thread on Black Magic, Shamanism, Supernatural, Graham Hancock where it is so clearly shown how we can easily hijack our growth with illusion and shortcuts.
Your compilation of texts and comparative notes just brought everything onto the next level.

I am odering Jacob Needleman's book, I had a few others on my priority list but I think I'd better bring this one to the top.

 

[obyvatel]

Thanks Gertrudes. Many questions about authentic mysticism that I have carried with me for a long time was answered by Needleman's Lost Christianity. I think this book touches a chord within us since Needleman's perspective is that of a sincere seeker. He raises questions which are based on common sense while the answers that he finds are quite profound and mesh very well with 4th Way ideas.

 

[Buddy]

Hi obyvatel. I was referred back to this thread from this post.

It is possible that when the state of self-consciousness (Real I) is skipped and the state of objective consciousness is arrived at directly, the space left behind after the false personality is removed is filled with attributes of sleeping consciousness, alignment with which happens to be the default state in this particular 3D existence.
OSIT

In recognition of your musings about mysticism in general, I was wondering what you are referring to by the part in bold above? In this context, are you using that phrase as a synonym for the state of self-awareness? I'm just curious because, to me, the two can be synonyms but there's that aspect of 'self-consciousness' that performs a different function of turning in on itself and can be manipulated by others until we mature enough through the Work to no longer need it. And so, I was thinking a bit of confusion might be possible even though you have 'Real I' in parentheses. :)

 

[obyvatel]

I was referring to the third state of consciousness referred to by G. The relevant quote from ISOTM is in the first post of this thread.

 

[Buddy]

I was referring to the third state of consciousness referred to by G. The relevant quote from ISOTM is in the first post of this thread.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

 

[obyvatel]

Cognitive science and philosophy have come to recognize a couple of states of consciousness. The first one is called the phenomenal or sentient or "animal" consciousness which is an experiential state where one is aware of perceptions and feelings. This phenomenal consciousness experiences the world through the information obtained from the sensory system both about the internal condition of the body (through interoceptors as described in Porges's "Polyvagal Theory") and the external world through the sense organs. This phenomenal consciousness (or "I" consciousness) is generally accepted to be present in animals - especially mammals along with human beings.

The second type of consciousness is reflective consciousness or self-consciousness which is believed to be present in humans only. This reflective consciousness can operate on symbolic information and can call forth the function of observer. My understanding is that the state of "self-remembering" or the third state of consciousness mentioned in 4th Way refers to the development of this reflective consciousness which would lead to the state of "I am". As discussed earlier in this thread, we seem to have the potential for this state in its full development. As Gurdjieff said, we should be possessing this state of consciousness at all times and the fact that we do not is a result of wrong living conditions and bad habits.


The capacity for reflection enables us to imagine and project into the past and future. In contrast, the phenomenal or animal consciousness lives in the present. Use of mind-altering substances promote this phenomenal state of consciousness in human beings where there is heightened experience of sensory stimuli, loss of sense of "self" and absence of future-directed behavior. Similar effects can be seen when one is engrossed in certain activities - like sports for example where consciousness is focused entirely on the present. Such an immersive state characterized as an optimal "feel good" condition has been described as a "state of flow" by scientist Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi. Gurdjieff however called such states "identification" and considered it inimical towards struggle to develop reflective consciousness which would lead to attaining the state of self-remembering.

In his book "Meaningful Information: The Bridge Between Biology, Brain and Behavior", author Anthony Reading writes

[quote author=Meaningful Information]
Some people experience the loss of self that occurs during certain sentient states as a mystical experience characterized by feelings of indescribable serenity and a sense of being in absolute harmony with the universe. While such transcendent experiences are often portrayed as being due to achieving a higher level of consciousness, they are actually caused by a retreat to a more primitive one.

Although sentient animals have some awareness of their internal states and their surroundings, they are unaware of why they respond the way they do. Their behavior is generated by innate drives and sensory information, rather than by personal goals or understanding. The subjective state we experience when we are focused intensely on the present is probably the closest we can get to appreciating how sentient animals (and young children) experience the world. Although we are aware of our sensory input and internal feelings during these times, we act without any conscious thought about what we are doing or why we are doing it. Focusing on the present heightens our experience of our sensory input and feelings, which is why we try to shut out distracting thoughts when we try to hit a golf ball, read a book, or watch a movie. People in large crowds can also become so focused on the present that they enter into a sentient state in which they lose their sense of self as they get swept along by others.
[/quote]

Due to wrong conditions of living, past traumatic experiences and bad habits, reflective consciousness is used in a way that may often make us feel that it is a burden to be carried around rather than a gift which when used wisely can lead us forward on the path to evolution. Falling into a state of instinctive phenomenal consciousness provides an escape from this burden. Positive dissociation has been discussed in a different thread (http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,14103.0.html). However, in the context of mysticism and annihilation of ego, the above analysis is worth a mention imo.

In the Wave series, Laura described the Tree of Life where 2D life forms were a reflection of 6D thought forms. It seems possible to access higher realities through the use of the 2D level of phenomenal consciousness. Ibn Arabi talks about "animals being closer to God" in this sense in "The Sufi Path of Knowledge". Yet as human beings if we wish to evolve to a level where we expect to "Do", our work is cut out in a different direction than what mystics seem to be indicating.

fwiw

 

[kenlee]

(quote) Focusing on the present heightens our experience of our sensory input and feelings, which is why we try to shut out distracting thoughts when we try to hit a golf ball, read a book, or watch a movie. People in large crowds can also become so focused on the present that they enter into a sentient state in which they lose their sense of self as they get swept along by others.

Yes, what I think is that as we become more focused in the 'present moment' in the way described above we can exclude many other impressions, both internally and externally, that limit the present moment into a very limited sphere. It's like holding a flashlight very close to the ground. The sphere of light is at maximum intensity when very close to the ground but the light intensity is limited only to a very small area.

I think as we begin to go in the direction of 'reflective consciousness' then many more impressions, both external and internal are received into our 'present moment' and the present moment expands into a larger sphere. This can correspond to the light dimming on the ground as the flashlight is brought further away but at the same time the sphere of light expands to a greater surface area. I think what the Work is about is to maintain maximum light intensity (as best as one is able) as the sphere gets larger so that we don't lose our focus on the practical stuff as the circle of light expands both inwardly and outwardly.

What I have found is that people who are so immersed in the everyday rat race who " become so focused on the present that they enter into a sentient state in which they lose their sense of self " are actually, in a sense, more aware, more focused, then a person who is working to expand their awareness in the direction of reflective consciousness. At least they are more aware but only within a very limited, narrow area. They know what they want in life, at least they know what they want within that very limited range and then go after it with little doubt or hesitation thinking that's all there is. Impressions that come into their very limited present moment that only pertain to their personal wants become mutually exclusive to those impressions coming into the moment from their own (and awareness of others) psychological inner reality, which also includes impressions coming into the moment from the greater outer world around them.

 

[Turgon]

The second type of consciousness is reflective consciousness or self-consciousness which is believed to be present in humans only. This reflective consciousness can operate on symbolic information and can call forth the function of observer. My understanding is that the state of "self-remembering" or the third state of consciousness mentioned in 4th Way refers to the development of this reflective consciousness which would lead to the state of "I am". As discussed earlier in this thread, we seem to have the potential for this state in its full development. As Gurdjieff said, we should be possessing this state of consciousness at all times and the fact that we do not is a result of wrong living conditions and bad habits.


The capacity for reflection enables us to imagine and project into the past and future. In contrast, the phenomenal or animal consciousness lives in the present. Use of mind-altering substances promote this phenomenal state of consciousness in human beings where there is heightened experience of sensory stimuli, loss of sense of "self" and absence of future-directed behavior.

I think as we begin to go in the direction of 'reflective consciousness' then many more impressions, both external and internal are received into our 'present moment' and the present moment expands into a larger sphere. This can correspond to the light dimming on the ground as the flashlight is brought further away but at the same time the sphere of light expands to a greater surface area. I think what the Work is about is to maintain maximum light intensity (as best as one is able) as the sphere gets larger so that we don't lose our focus on the practical stuff as the circle of light expands both inwardly and outwardly.

Could this be connected as well to taking into consideration and reflecting on how the past, or immediate past control's our current present moment behaviour? We have all these programs and trauma related events that shape our behaviour and cause us to react to a number of stimuli that we associate with past events.

So by taking into account our past, both short and long term, how it's affecting us in the present moment, and trying to determine where these choices will take us in the future while keeping our eyes open for symbolism's either through dreams or events in our lives that may be warning signs or signals from either the Universe or our subconscious is what is then ultimately meant by 'reflective consciousness' or self-remembering?

 

[obyvatel]

So by taking into account our past, both short and long term, how it's affecting us in the present moment, and trying to determine where these choices will take us in the future while keeping our eyes open for symbolism's either through dreams or events in our lives that may be warning signs or signals from either the Universe or our subconscious is what is then ultimately meant by 'reflective consciousness' or self-remembering?

I think that is close. My current understanding is that we must make use of reflective consciousness in order to remember the self since the "observer" mode is a property of reflective consciousness. A proper development of reflective consciousness would lead to a state of self-remembering.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Thanks obyvatel for following up with this thread. It's helped me reconnect with my past readings of ISOTM and Lost Christianity and also to tie it to our more current studies in Cognitive Psychology.

I was very much identified with the Work during my earlier participation in the forum which helped me in a sense to have an emotional impetus for continuing on the so-called "path". After my University studies were over and it was time to join the workforce, I seemed to have lost that identification. Tentatively, I think it was a progressive loss of crystallization that I experienced during my half a year of working. I had never experienced such difficult conditions in my sheltered, isolated life (which is not how an obyvatel lives) that it demolished a lot of what I thought and felt to be "good" behaviours related to the Work. I also ended up accumulating bad habits which were echos of my past dissociative tendencies.

Slowly I am beginning to drop the little habits I had used as "stress-relief" and focusing more on pipe-breathing and sensing the body and posture. Also of course, writing a 'proper' post for once. If I've learned one thing from all this, it's that there's nothing mystical or magical about the Work, in general. It's just struggling with myself, washing away the dirt off the vessel that is me. Ugh, look at what I've done, sorry for the noise.

 

[SMM]

Thank you obyvatel & others for the contributions to this thread.

 

[iamthatis]

Thank you for this excellent thread. I have been mulling over this topic over the past week.

There is a critique of mysticism in the Castaneda book Fire From Within as well:

"He also said that every species has a mold of its own, and every individual of every species molded by the process shows characteristics particular to its own kind.

He began then an extremely disturbing elucidation about the mold of man. He said that the old seers as well as the mystics of our world have one thing in common - they have been able to seethe mold of man but not understand what it is. Mystics, throughout the centuries, have given us moving accounts of their experiences. But these accounts, however beautiful, are flawed by the gross and despairing mistake of believing the mold of man to be an omnipotent, omniscient creator; and so is the interpretation of the old seers, who called the mold of man a friendly spirit, a protector of man.

He said that the new seers are the only ones who have the sobriety to see the mold of man and understand what it is. What they have come to realize is that the mold of man is not a creator, but the pattern of every human attribute we can think of and some we cannot even conceive. The mold is our God because we are what it stamps us with and not because it has created us from nothing and made us in its image and likeness. Don Juan said that in his opinion to fall on our knees in the presence of the mold of man reeks of arrogance and human self-centeredness."

So, my thoughts - it's difficult for me to comprehend exactly what the 'mold of man' is in easily-explainable terms. It seems to be a process through which all humans go. Perhaps it is encoded in our DNA, as the seed of us, from which we all grow. And yet, there is something else going on here in don Juan's description.

There is a Soul. Whatever that is, I do not know. I am unsure if we can know. Is it electromagnetic? Is it a substance? Aether? Consciousness? Gravity? Water? Regardless - there is a Soul. The Soul arrives here, and matches with (1) genetic profile and (2) karmic profile. But the door through which the Soul enters - perhaps this is the mold of man. It is a filter of sorts, that shapes the Soul to fit in 3D.

The mystics and others get a glimpse of this process, their neurotransmitters lit up like a Christmas Tree, and are convinced that this Soul-filter is God. It is a reduction. This conviction of the identity of God is indicated to be a result of indulgent emotionality. We see where our form has come from, and fall in love with that door. Perhaps it is analogous to the love we feel for our Mother at birth - and afterwards. We are alive, and we see that 'someone' or 'something' has given us life, and we melt with gratitude. However, this is self-centered, anthropocentric, or anthropomorphizing, or as Nietzsche said 'human, all-too-human.' The consciousness becomes so drunk with love of the mold of man, or this filter, or this Mother-principle, that the Soul does not want to leave.

I don't know if it makes sense to introduce Jordan Petersen in this flow of thought, but I was listening to a talk of his recently regarding the Oedipal complex - which is an archetype that many people (he specifically addresses young men living lazy lives in their parents' basements) are caught up in. The inability to leave the Mother-concept - this is a life dependence, an extended childhood, no adulthood, no individuated personality that is capable of independence - and as such, incapable of interdependence (according to Covey's 7 habits). Giving and receiving freely - STO - can only be achieved by those who have overcome their dependencies through growth. Although in the case of this thread, we are speaking about a mystical dependence, and the maturation of the Soul. One can become stuck in the 'drooling at the wonders of the universe'. The trap of bliss-addiction (through various means), as described near the beginning of SHOTW, is to relegate the Soul to an extended childhood. To me, this is related to Needleman's description of sin. 'Sin' means 'without'. It has synonyms like error, mistake, crime. Without what, though?

I am beginning to consider 'sin' to mean 'Without a Way'. To sin means to be without initiation into an intact Way. Or, for those who have found a Way, 'sin' means 'Without adherence to the Way.' My current hypothesis is that the seed of the Soul is designed to sprout, grow, bloom, fruit. For someone who knows better, there is no excuse to simply rest in bliss, which seems to be one of the main draws of mysticism. There is a cosmic map in our DNA that traces the path of ascension. In this account of don Juan's, there seems to be a maturation of mystical bliss into a seer's sobriety.

It's a difficult one for 3D humans to figure out though, because according to don Juan, nearly everyone who sees this 'mold of man' is convinced that it is a loving God - and fall to their knees to ask favours, or stands to preach, etc.

For the mold of man cannot under any circumstances help us by intervening in our behalf, or punish our wrongdoings, or reward us in any way. We are simply the product of its stamp; we are its impression. The mold of man is exactly what its name tells us it is, a pattern, a form, a cast that groups together a particular bunch of fiberlike elements, which we call man.

It isn't that the mystical experience is fake, but that our interpretation of it arrives in our understanding through the emotional filter of our neuropeptides.