A theory on psychopaths' souls!

[abeofarrell]

Thanks Ana. I think the point of issue is the terminology. G refers to our essence and Mouravieff to our Real "I". The soul seems to be something possessed as a result of merging the higher and lower Emotion Centers through a magnetic center of gravity. I am questioning WHAT it is that goes to the 5th density. G discusses the creation of the soul body within the physical body through esoteric work. Mouravieff points out the real I as the source of conscience, which psychopaths lack, seeming to suggest a lack of essence or a different type. Any thoughts?

 

[abeofarrell]

By the way Ana, I have read through the Organic Portals threads and the psychopath threads. Yet throughout all 4th Way works the key theme is the creation of the soul through the permanent point of gravity as the higher and lower Emotional Centers merge. Something must pass on, that is for sure. The Cs talk about soul pools for OPs, and that for non-OPs that have made progress they can continue where they left off in the next incarnation, but for those with no permanent work they have to start again from the beginning. I have read through the writings again and again and I see such an emphasis on the "build your soul" concept that the only work around I can see is that what passes on for the exterior man is his essence. As his essence lacks a permanent personality the personality from the ended life must die. In the next incarnation a new personality develops. Hence the terminology of "death".

Sorry I am posting in bits an pieces, the last post was not he train and now I am on home I can add details. Not trying to be argumentative!

Thanks

Abe

 

[ana]

Thanks Ana. I think the point of issue is the terminology. G refers to our essence and Mouravieff to our Real "I". The soul seems to be something possessed as a result of merging the higher and lower Emotion Centers through a magnetic center of gravity. I am questioning WHAT it is that goes to the 5th density. G discusses the creation of the soul body within the physical body through esoteric work. Mouravieff points out the real I as the source of conscience, which psychopaths lack, seeming to suggest a lack of essence or a different type. Any thoughts?

I wouldn't say the soul is something possesed, the soul is the real aspect of creation exploring, growing and learning. The personality and ego on the other hand are "temporary aspects" fruit of oblivion and identification with the specific reality. Esoteric work is aimed at awakening the soul (the real "I") and make growth and learning become conscious in the specific reality. If it is succesfull then no more incarnative process is needed in third density.
It is not that we need to create a soul but that we need to destroy many illusions, so that growth becomes conscious.

Essence as I understand it is the timid and weak manifestation of the soul, that in most cases ends completely overthrown by the personality.

And it seems the higher emotional and intellectual centers (the soul higher aspects) do already exist in souled beings:

Q: Does the recharging of the souled being come from a similar pool, only maybe the "human" pool?

A: No - it recharges from the so-called sexual center which is a higher center of creative energy. During sleep, the emotional center, not being blocked by the lower intellectual cener and the moving center, transduces the energy from the sexual center. It is also the time during which the higher emotional and intellectual centers can rest from the "drain" of the lower centers' interaction with those pesky organic portals so much loved by the lower centers. This respite alone is sufficient to make a difference. But, more than that, the energy of the sexual center is also more available to the other higher centers.

Since psychopaths are OPs they lack an individualized soul and so no esoteric evolution in these terms is applicable.

 

[Buddy]

I have read through the writings again and again and I see such an emphasis on the "build your soul" concept that the only work around I can see is that what passes on for the exterior man is his essence. As his essence lacks a permanent personality the personality from the ended life must die. In the next incarnation a new personality develops. Hence the terminology of "death".

Hi abeofarrell. Ana just posted and may have answered some of my questions as well, but I thought I'd mention that this is something that's vexed me as well. I certainly wouldn't say that I disbelieve C's or anyone else, it's just that I want to know and I'm willing to believe while searching if the relevant question is 'what have I got to lose by believing'? You know what I mean?

In case my input is useful, currently, I'm thinking a self-and-other aware 'persona' can be fused with essence but it's not a natural condition. As one goes about learning and living, there must be little or no separation between what one knows to be true and what one acts on. This would be the difference between standing in front of a refrigerator and looking at it (think 'space' between you and it) and 'sticking' to it like a post-it note (no 'space' between you and it). This comparison might be worded something like: coherence with essence--thinking, being directly, and decoherence with essence--thinking, being symbolically.

An implied alternative is living mostly as false personality and upon physical death, the only 'permanent' persona that could be of use to 'soul' would be only whatever part of persona has established very strong experience based relationships with essence (that coherence previously mentioned). In this example, I see gravity as being in the strength of bonds deliberately made, so to speak.

But I don't know that this makes sense to anyone else or is even on track. Please ask if more clarity is needed.

 

[abeofarrell]

Here is the first post by Laura in the OP thread, emphasis added:

"Among the most difficult concepts the C's have presented to us over the years is that of Organic Portals. We've received tons of hate mail about this from fundie types - both mainstream religion and New Age - protesting the very idea of human type beings that may not have the potential of an "immortal soul." Then, of course, we get even MORE letters from people who nearly shout in relief at finally having something of an explanation for things they have observed all their lives. The question that exercises many people is: are psychopaths a type of Organic Portal or are psychopaths something else altogether?

The way this idea works is to think about all humanity as represented by a bell curve. At one end is a small percentage, maybe 6 % that not only are potentially souled, but also have the conditions to develop in the direction of creative potential in the fullest sense. At the other end are psychopaths, or those that are not potentially souled, but who do have a capacity to develop strongly in the direction of entropy. In the middle is a larger grouping divided more or less equally between potentially souled and Organic Portals.

I'm not sure that this is an accurate representation. My thought is that there needs to be two separate Bell Curve graphs, one for Potentially Souled beings and another for Organic Portals with Creation and Entropy being at either end. I don't think you can even put them on the same graph because the fundamental criteria are so different.

Yes, you could probably make a bell curve of souled vs non souled, but only for that single criterion.

So where do psychopaths belong? Do they belong on the graph of potentially souled, but having "sold their souls to the devil" (figuratively speaking), or do they belong on the graph of Organic Portals?"

If you will notice, the language she uses is POTENTIALLY SOULED. Meaning having the potential to form a soul, not being in possession of a soul.

Ana, where do you find data suggesting that THE SOUL is awakened, grows and learns? Gurdjieff describes the process where Man 1, 2 and 3 through esoteric work form the astral body (Man 4) within the physical body, then form the Spiritual body (Man 5) within man 4. At that point he does not use the word soul. The higher density body is built within the lower density. There is nowhere mentioned a Soul which awakens, or grows or learns. Let's look in ISOTM page 163: "A very important moment in the work on oneself is when a man begins to distinguish between his personality and his essence. A man's real I, his individuality, can grow only from his essence. It can be said that a man's individuality is his essence, grown up, mature, but in order to enable essence to grow up, it is first of all necessary to weaken the constant pressure of personality upon it, because the obstacles to the growth of essence are contained in personality." So we see here that it is the essence which grows.

I wish I had a digital version of ISOTM where I could search for the term "soul". It is not listed in the index and I do not have time to search the whole book now. As I said, I think the issue is an understanding of the language used. i am sure we both mean the same thing, but different words. For sure something passes on, and the only thing listed in the writings which is our permanent possession is our essence, which G says in some people actually dies while they are alive anyway. Again, in nowhere is it stated that the essence is a weak manifestation of the soul, although that may be the case.

This sure is interesting and important too I believe. Anyone else want to share?

 

[abeofarrell]

And it seems the higher emotional and intellectual centers (the soul higher aspects) do already exist in souled beings

Ana, what do you mean by "the soul higher aspects"? Can you give me a reference for that? Yes, we all have fully functioning higher emotional and intellectual centers but I haven't found a passage where they are described as being "soul higher aspects". I need to read through again I guess, I cannot see the link. Maybe in the beginning they are part of our essence? I will try and do some reading to find the connection tonight.

Thank you Ana for giving me so much to think about and the opportunity to discuss this with you. It is such a difficult area to grasp. I need to study on this more. I hope more people comment too.

Peace

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I wish I had a digital version of ISOTM where I could search for the term "soul". It is not listed in the index and I do not have time to search the whole book now. As I said, I think the issue is an understanding of the language used. i am sure we both mean the same thing, but different words. For sure something passes on, and the only thing listed in the writings which is our permanent possession is our essence, which G says in some people actually dies while they are alive anyway. Again, in nowhere is it stated that the essence is a weak manifestation of the soul, although that may be the case.

Gurdjieff isn't that strict about how he uses the term soul. I won't do Beelzebub, but here are some usages from the other books. From ISOTM:

"The process of the growth and the warming of the moon is connected with life and death on the earth. Everything living sets free at its death a certain amount of the energy that has 'animated' it; this energy, or the 'souls' of everything living—plants, animals, people—is attracted to the moon as though by a huge electromagnet, and brings to it the warmth and the life upon which its growth depends, that is, the growth of the ray of creation. In the economy of the universe nothing is lost, and a certain energy having finished its work on one plane goes to another.

"The souls that go to the moon, possessing perhaps even a certain amount of consciousness and memory, find themselves there under ninety-six laws, in the conditions of mineral life, or to put it differently, in conditions from which there is no escape apart from a general evolution in immeasurably long planetary cycles. The moon is 'at the extremity,' at the end of the world; it is the 'outer darkness' of the Christian doctrine 'where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

From Meetings:

'How shall I put it?' he answered. 'In that soul which a man supposedly has, as people believe, and of which they say that it exists independently after death and transmigrates, I do not believe; and yet, in the course of a man's life "something" does form itself in him: this is for me beyond all doubt.
'As I explain it to myself, a man is born with a certain property and, thanks to this property, in the course of his life certain of his experiencings elaborate in him a certain substance, and from this substance there is gradually formed in him "something or other" which can acquire a life almost independent of the physical body.
'When a man dies, this "something" does not disintegrate at the same time as the physical body, but only much later, after its separation from the physical body.
'Although this "something" is formed from the same substance as the physical body of a man, it has a much finer materiality and, it must be assumed, a much greater sensitivity towards all kinds of perceptions. The sensitivity of its perception is in my opinion such as—you remember, when you made that experiment with the half-witted Armenian woman, Sando?'
He had in mind an experiment I had made in his presence many years before, during a visit in Alexandropol, when I brought people of many different types into various degrees of hypnosis, for the purpose of elucidating for myself all the details of the phenomenon which learned hypnotists call the exteriorization of sensitivity or the transference of sensations of pain at a distance.

This question of Professor Skridlov was torn from him as from the depths of his being, when Father Giovanni had said that, before counting on really coming under the effects and influences of the higher forces, it was absolutely necessary to have a soul, which it was possible to acquire only through voluntary and involuntary experiencings and information intentionally learned about real events which had taken place in the past. He convincingly added that this in its turn was possible almost exclusively in youth, when the definite data received from Great Nature are not yet spent on unnecessary, fantastic aims, which appear to be good owing only to the abnormally established conditions of the life of people.

Also, numerous common usages of the word, e.g., "saving your soul", "every living soul", "depths of your soul", "body and soul", "sell his soul", etc.

From Life is Real:

This, and only this, for me Divine principle, enabled me to discern and understand at last those deeply hidden nuances of the human soul that had intrigued me all my life.

... there was crystallized in their consciousness the one idea that a man who has never worked intentionally on his perfecting is deprived not only of a soul but also of spirit.

If all men bad a soul, Long ago there would have been no room
left on earth For poisonous plants or wild beasts, And even evil would have ceased to exist.
Soul is for the lazy fantasy, Luxury for the indulger in suffering; It is the determiner of personality, The may and the link to the Maker and Creator.
Soul is the residue of education, The prime source of patience; It is also testimony of the merit Of the essence of eternal Being.
Leader of the will, Its presence is "I am," It is a part of the All-Being, It was so and always will be.

First of all, it must be said that in the outpourings of various occultists and other will-less parasites, when they discuss spiritual questions, not everything is entirely wrong.
What they call the "soul" does really exist, but not everybody necessarily has one.
A soul is not born with man and can neither unfold nor take form in him so long as his body is not fully developed.
It is a luxury that can only appear and attain completion in the period of "responsible age," that is to say, in a man's maturity.
The soul, like the physical body, is also matter—only, it consists of "finer" matter.
The matter from which the soul is formed and from which it later nourishes and perfects itself is, in general, elaborated during the processes that take place between the two essential forces upon which the entire Universe is founded.
The matter in which the soul is coated can be produced exclusively by the action of these two forces, which are called "good" and "evil" by ancient science, or "affirmation" and "negation," while contemporary science calls them "attraction" and "repulsion."
In the common presence of a man, these two forces have their source in two of the totalities of general psychic functioning, which have already been mentioned.
One of them coincides with that function whose factors proceed from
the results of impressions received from outside, and the other appears as a function whose factors issue chiefly from the results of the specific functioning of the organs, as determined by heredity. {i.e., 'essence' and 'personality'?}

 

[ana]

Ana, where do you find data suggesting that THE SOUL is awakened, grows and learns?

Where did I say that the soul is awakened? And yes, I think the soul can learn and grow, that's what souls are free to do and not only in this reality, after all is not the universe a big school?

But this is the crux of the matter:

Soul

In QFS discourse, soul usually means that part of an individual which is permanent in the sense of surviving physical death and specifically belongs together with that individual and no other. Whether such a thing even exists may depend on the individual itself. For example, an 'organic portal' or 'preadamic man' would not have a soul in this sense, although there would be some sort of non-individuated animating energy in the 'individual soul's' place.

If a soul in this sense exists, it may be more or less evolved. Even if one exists, it may have very little to do with the run of one's life. It may be and usually is for the most part asleep and dissociated from the body's and mind's experience. Using the metaphor of the coach, we could say that the passenger is asleep and the driver/horse take the coach (body) where they please, having quite forgotten about the passenger.

The soul in this sense is linked to the concept of acquiring a real I and gaining access to one's higher centers. These higher centers will exist at least in potential if there is a soul, as we use the word here. At the end of 4th Way evolution, this soul may be substantially identical with the 'real I.' This is however vanishingly rare and various intermediate stages of development are needed before this soul is truly anchored into the body as the conscious master of thought, feeling and physicality.

Much of New Age culture looks for ways for whatever passes for consciousness to deliberately leave the body, experience astral travel, produce psychic effects etc. Quite unlike these, the 4th Way seeks first to bring the soul, if there be any, into the body. The soul needs to first claim its own incarnation from all the forces of personality, biology etc which normally run the show.

Soul is however not completely disconnected and may appear as impulses of conscience, deeper emotions, sense of purpose etc. Man is, even if not run by the 'soul,' still answerable for what transpires through him. In the usual state of matters, the soul gets to karmically pay for the personality's mistakes and predilections even though it is not really in control.

Review the Cs material and see if it works for you, since obviously I can't prove nothing to you. :)

And it seems the higher emotional and intellectual centers (the soul higher aspects) do already exist in souled beings

Ana, what do you mean by "the soul higher aspects"? Can you give me a reference for that? Yes, we all have fully functioning higher emotional and intellectual centers but I haven't found a passage where they are described as being "soul higher aspects". I need to read through again I guess, I cannot see the link. Maybe in the beginning they are part of our essence? I will try and do some reading to find the connection tonight.

See here:

Centers, Higher

Mouravieff describes the higher emotional and intellectual centers as the 'eyes of the soul.' They both see differently. These centers exist in individually souled humans and are even functioning and awake but are disconnected from the lower centers which constitute the regular consciousness due not to any deficiency of the higher centers but rather due to the lower centers' lack of development and improper and sluggish functioning. The Work takes the form of preparing the lower centers in such a way that they become capable of entering into contact, however briefly, with the higher centers. It would be false pride to claim that human efforts create the higher. The scope of human efforts is limited to training the lower centers, the machine, so as to be a suitable receptacle for the soul. The higher is not the product of man's efforts, which are anyway restricted to the level accessible to man. Yet the efforts are necessary. At best these efforts could be said to provide construction material and receptive capacity for the higher. They do not per se design or cause the higher.

 

[abeofarrell]

Ana, thank you. I really do appreciate the effort you went to in finding quotes and using them to reply to me. I appreciate it as for me doing that is something I do not find easy to do.

I did not expect that you should convince me or not convince me or me you. As you said, the onus is on me to do the research. I will go back through the C literature, particularly to find any extra data backing up these quotes. It is not that I doubt the Cs, it is that they themselves say we should not accept their words at face value but should research everything. As it is clearly stated that this forum should be considered a 4th Way school and the Cs are the teachers, therefore I feel the importance that everything agrees with at least the basic tenures of the 4th Way, so I question according to the main literature.

I look forward to looking into this more. When I get some more time I will reply.

Thank you again

 

[lake_george]

FWIW, in "Beelzebub's Tales" Gurdjieff writes that those who have become coated with higher being bodies, through the processes of conscious labors and intentional suffering, will, after the death of the planetary body, go to the planet Purgatory, where they can work further towards self-perfection and union with His Endlessness. According to the story, His Endlessness visits the planet Purgatory often to relieve the suffering these beings experience from being still not one with God.

There are also other beings, hasnamusses, who have become more-or-less permanently crystallized but crystallized incorrectly, without conscience, and there are several planets to which hasnamusses are permanently exiled.

Also, if someone has formed an astral body within a lifetime, but not a higher mental body, then it is possible to be re-born in another planetary body in order to complete the formation of the higher mental body.

This is my understanding of Gurdjieff's 'theory' about it. Others could well have a different understanding of the same thing.

In most of what I have read in the Gurdjieff teachings, the word 'soul' is used very sparingly, since the word has so many conflicting associations. The use of the word 'soul' can lead to confusion unless one begins with a clear, agreed-upon definition.

 

[ana]

I did not expect that you should convince me or not convince me or me you. As you said, the onus is on me to do the research. I will go back through the C literature, particularly to find any extra data backing up these quotes. It is not that I doubt the Cs, it is that they themselves say we should not accept their words at face value but should research everything. As it is clearly stated that this forum should be considered a 4th Way school and the Cs are the teachers, therefore I feel the importance that everything agrees with at least the basic tenures of the 4th Way, so I question according to the main literature.

I look forward to looking into this more. When I get some more time I will reply.

In studying deeply the Cs material you can enlarge or restructure your base concepts so you can better make sense of it all, and see if the puzzle starts to fit, that's what I meant when saying that you need to read the material and see if it works for you.

By the way are you also practicing EE?

 

[Buddy]

I have read, re-read and reflected on every word on this entire thread since I posted to it. I think this "soul" business as presented in that "In QFS discourse..." quote makes more sense to me now.

Obviously, over the years, "soul" has been used in various ways, has referred to various 'things' and has even been used in various modes of speech. At one time, Greek philosophers had even divided the totality of reality (including a person) into "Quality and Quantity" where "body" was everything that can be quantified. "Soul" was all that can be perceived but not quantified--thus the difficulties quantifying the term 'soul', OSIT.

As we currently understand and describe our Work processes, soul grows as That which can be created from friction resulting from the struggles between yes and no and so forth. Or this is how it seems to me.

Also it seems all the info on this thread, melded together, points to a person's soul being created or otherwise occupying 'area(s)' of overlapping or intermixing between one's 'quality' parts and one's 'quantifiable' parts. A medium or mediating area so to speak. In Mouravieff's terms involving higher and lower centers, this area would be an intimate and immediate relation between them.


So, when American Germanic Fox said:

The paradox can be solved by saying that psychopaths do not have souls

We could understand psychopath-soul relationship as a non issue since a typical psychopath wouldn't bother with any internal struggle would he?

Does any of this make sense?

 

[abeofarrell]

Ana -> Yes i agree there is much to learn in the C transmissions. How they interact with Laura and the team especially teaches me a lot, as well as how the team respond. And to tge second question: Yes I am doing EE.

This is a very complex topic and I have much to learn.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Buddy]We could understand psychopath-soul relationship as a non issue since a typical psychopath wouldn't bother with any internal struggle would he?

Does any of this make sense?[/quote]

I think so, yes.

The literature on psychopathology asserts that they frequently pass psychological exams with flying colors because they have no inner struggle whatsoever.

 

[ana]

And to tge second question: Yes I am doing EE.

Ok, I asked because EE seems at least to me, an indispensable tool for those who are working, since it deals with that which the intellect cannot do alone, that is integrating lost "parts" of our souls and releasing a lot of unconscious bagage that manifests as defense mechanisms that hold us back, so good to know you are already practicing it :)