About David Icke & James Redfield

[ivanfraser]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks for the greetings :)

The Icke thing just keeps following me around. I haven't commented on the issue for several years. Although I had, the internet just won't let it lie. I have seen similar discussions at other sites - the interest is still valid - and the quality of debate is superior here. I wish it had existed in the places that I was participating at at the time when my own interest in this was at its height.

Congratulations on keeping things reasonable and open here. I know from experience how much effort that entails :)

 

[vinny]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I would say that the deliberate and active opening up of one's consciousness to external intelligences can place you at risk of being infiltrated by those who do not necessarily have Truth and integrity as their aim. Some may be downright malicious, whilst others may be entirely genuine, but have carried erroneous beliefs into the afterlife and are at pains to be our guides or helpers.

welcome to the forum, Ivan, and thanks for clarifying your views above, which you'll find much agreement with, here.

It is difficult to give a summarised overview, but a good place to check, first of all, would be The Wave series, if you haven't already done so. Here you will get a good idea of the motivations, reasoning, methodology, and context of the Cassiopaean Experiment, and how that led to other ongoing work such as SOTT.net and the study of Political Ponerology

 

[anart]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I'd like to clarify one point though. I wouldn't say that all channelled information is disinfo. Neither do I recollect ever saying that. I think it should be treated as info, but with care. One cannot be sure to whom one is conversing. It's like talking to someone in the street, round a corner, unseen and unknown - it could be anyone - there are a lot of dead people's souls out there. I would say that the deliberate and active opening up of one's consciousness to external intelligences can place you at risk of being infiltrated by those who do not necessarily have Truth and integrity as their aim. Some may be downright malicious, whilst others may be entirely genuine, but have carried erroneous beliefs into the afterlife and are at pains to be our guides or helpers.

Which is exactly in keeping with our take on it here. I think you'll find some interesting information on such things in the links Nomad provided.

The Icke thing just keeps following me around. I haven't commented on the issue for several years. Although I had, the internet just won't let it lie.

The internet is relentless that way!

I have seen similar discussions at other sites - the interest is still valid - and the quality of debate is superior here. I wish it had existed in the places that I was participating at at the time when my own interest in this was at its height.

Congratulations on keeping things reasonable and open here. I know from experience how much effort that entails Smiley

Thanks for noticing! We work very hard at it, not only because it facilitates learning and discussion - but because it is SO important to afford sincere people an environment in which to access this information and contribute to it. Welcome to the forum, Ivan. :)

 

[ivanfraser]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I've begun to read The Wave, as you suggested.

It's like going back to the days when I read so much material like this from the likes of Barbara Marciniak, Dolores Cannon, The Only Planet Of Choice, Barbara Hand Clow etc. etc. and on and on. Swathes of techno babble inserted into a cauldron of myth and religion, spun in Kabbalistic symbolism, and therefore, in my view useless except as an exercise in the psychology of channelling, and the study of the desires and beliefs and tactics of those who would be channelled.

The forum seems great.

The Cassiopaea stuff really is not for me though. Sorry.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

The Icke thing just keeps following me around. I haven't commented on the issue for several years. Although I had, the internet just won't let it lie.

That's true, but Icke himself keeps it going, too. He's a major force right now, unfortunately. And much of what he says sounds superficially like truth. Which makes him very dangerous. Prior to this thread, some of us here were on the fence regarding the nature of his work. Although it was clear that many of his ideas are wrong-headed, a few of us were still considering him a sincere researcher who's just mistaken on some points. Now we understand what others here had been saying all along - he's an agent of disinformation, and a very insidious one. So that's why this discussion was started about him, and it's helped many of us a lot.

Still, the degree to which Icke is knowingly spreading disinfo is still murky. From your account it looks like his personality is very different when he's out of the public eye. We've seen other evidence too that he covers up facts and manipulates, and can be very hypocritical. But does he actually believe his own ideas to some extent? Or does he have full awareness that he's misleading people? Did all of his early "high strangeness," coincidences, and channeling experiences happen as he described, or did he make it all up? Are there other people guiding the course of his work, or has he been doing it himself? These things are still up in the air somewhat. But they're fairly small issues compared to the overall impact of his work on the minds of his believers, which is something we've already established. So if the other questions are never answered it's not such a big deal. I'd like to get more insight on this stuff, but it's definitely not necessary.

So I have no wish to "pump" you for information about Icke. I think it's perfectly fine to let him lie (in more ways than one). If you think there's something significant that we may have missed, feel free to mention it, but only if you'd like to. I think it's good enough that you're here, checking out what we're all about. Maybe it can help add to your knowledge, if nothing else. And I'll definitely be reading your site, too. This discussion of Icke may be the catalyst that brought you here, but he doesn't need to figure into the equation any further than that. The subject is getting a bit stale for us, too. :)

That said, there is one "loose end" I've been wanting to tie up - Arizona Wilder. If you have any resources or info we can look at regarding her (or real programmed multiples, for comparison), or if you have any further insight, it would be a great help.

I have seen similar discussions at other sites - the interest is still valid - and the quality of debate is superior here. I wish it had existed in the places that I was participating at at the time when my own interest in this was at its height.

We noticed the same thing. Those who weren't defending Icke were mostly just attacking him on a superficial level, laughing at his "reptilian shape-shifter" stuff, etc. There's very little of substance to be found.

Congratulations on keeping things reasonable and open here. I know from experience how much effort that entails :)

Thanks. It has taken a lot of effort... And some errors in judgment have had to be corrected, too. I'm one of those who went off on the wrong track a few times. But we act as a network. So subjective reactions and wrong thinking are always brought to our attention by more level-headed members. As a whole we've been balancing each other, and keeping the discussion as objective as possible.

I've begun to read The Wave, as you suggested.

It's like going back to the days when I read so much material like this from the likes of Barbara Marciniak, Dolores Cannon, The Only Planet Of Choice, Barbara Hand Clow etc. etc. and on and on. Swathes of techno babble inserted into a cauldron of myth and religion, spun in Kabbalistic symbolism, and therefore, in my view useless except as an exercise in the psychology of channelling, and the study of the desires and beliefs and tactics of those who would be channelled.

The forum seems great.

The Cassiopaea stuff really is not for me though. Sorry.

That's your choice, and you can still feel free to keep discussing here if you'd like. But keep in mind that this forum grew from the Cass material and the concepts contained therein. It's one of the "fruits" of the Cassiopaean Experiment by which it can be judged. As you can see, we're not blind devotees of some channeled entities. Their words are held up to scrutiny just like anyone else's. They've inspired all of this objective learning and striving for truth. But at the same time they're only part of the picture. So if they were deceptive or had an agenda, they wouldn't be able to pull it off. If the results of Laura's research ever clashed with what they said, Laura would go with the research. But so far that hasn't happened. The C's have a great track record.

I'm interested in what you mean by "the desires and beliefs and tactics of those who would be channelled." What are these specifically, and what makes you think they apply to the Cassiopaeans?

 

[anart]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I've begun to read The Wave, as you suggested.

It's like going back to the days when I read so much material like this from the likes of Barbara Marciniak, Dolores Cannon, The Only Planet Of Choice, Barbara Hand Clow etc. etc. and on and on. Swathes of techno babble inserted into a cauldron of myth and religion, spun in Kabbalistic symbolism, and therefore, in my view useless except as an exercise in the psychology of channelling, and the study of the desires and beliefs and tactics of those who would be channelled.

It's not, but if you only read for a short period of time with a predetermined mind set, then I can understand why you would see only that.

The forum seems great.

The Cassiopaea stuff really is not for me though. Sorry.

Then the forum probably won't be either - the two are intimately intertwined. Feel free to read all you'd like, though.

 

[John G]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

It's like going back to the days when I read so much material like this from the likes of Barbara Marciniak, Dolores Cannon, The Only Planet Of Choice, Barbara Hand Clow etc. etc. and on and on. Swathes of techno babble inserted into a cauldron of myth and religion, spun in Kabbalistic symbolism, and therefore, in my view useless except as an exercise in the psychology of channelling, and the study of the desires and beliefs and tactics of those who would be channelled.

That is nowhere close to a correct description for how channeled information is used here. Think of how Jung studied religions, that's a little closer. Principles via Kurt Gödel apply:

The world is rational.
Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (through certain techniques).
There are systematic methods for the solution of all problems (also art, etc.).
There are other worlds and rational beings of a different and higher kind.
The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall live or have lived.
There is incomparably more knowable a priori than is currently known.
The development of human thought since the Renaissance is thoroughly intelligible (durchaus einsichtige).
Reason in mankind will be developed in every direction.
Formal rights comprise a real science.
Materialism is false.
The higher beings are connected to the others by analogy, not by composition.
Concepts have an objective existence.
There is a scientific (exact) philosophy and theology, which deals with concepts of the highest abstractness; and this is also most highly fruitful for science.
Religions are, for the most part, bad but religion is not.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Well ... very interesting. Honestly I had a similar reaction after starting The Wave, I was sick of channels. What got me over the hump? Hard to say for sure, but I think it was three things: 1) Laura's picture amidst all of those books (that reminded me of me); 2) the fact that she is a Southerner like me (although some Carolinians don't consider Florida "the South" teehee), and 3) her depictions of how provocateurs operate. The little pause here has given me the opportunity to reflect on that.

 

[ivanfraser]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I haven't seen anything about Arizona Wilder since the time she was co-operating with David Icke, sorry.

Having spent more time here and reading around the various subjects, I have a recollection that I have indeed seen this site before several years ago. I was involved in a legal case against another group with similar ideas to those expressed here. This organisation came up in my research.

I realise I have no real place here, given my views, which are fairly against so much of this kind of material, and how it is used.

I was drawn in by superficial appearances, but have today explored enough to know that this is not a place for me.

I wish you well.

Ivan

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I haven't seen anything about Arizona Wilder since the time she was co-operating with David Icke, sorry.

It's almost like she appeared on the scene during that time, then disappeared. So it's totally understandable, no worries.

[quote author=ivanfraser]
Having spent more time here and reading around the various subjects, I have a recollection that I have indeed seen this site before several years ago. I was involved in a legal case against another group with similar ideas to those expressed here. This organisation came up in my research.
[/quote]

On the surface, David Icke appears to have very similar ideas to those here. But as we've shown in this thread, he and this site are worlds apart. One of the goals of disinformation is to turn people away from genuine information. To get them to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." To do that effectively, it must bear a resemblance.

[quote author=ivanfraser]
I realise I have no real place here, given my views, which are fairly against so much of this kind of material, and how it is used.
[/quote]

We're also against most channeled material and how it is used, so I understand why you feel this way.

[quote author=ivanfraser]
I was drawn in by superficial appearances,
[/quote]

Which is pretty normal when one first encounters something. But it can also be normal to feel repelled by superficial appearances.

[quote author=ivanfraser]
but have today explored enough to know that this is not a place for me.
[/quote]

If you truly feel that it's not, then it's not.

[quote author=ivanfraser]
I wish you well.
[/quote]

Likewise. :)

 

[shijing]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Ivan, if you still happen to be checking in, I wanted to suggest the following article to you:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stargate.htm

It may be pertinent to your impression of the Cassiopaean experiment, but see what you think.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Argonaut, E, et al. I just wanted to say thanks again for a most enlightening discussion!!

Your point about mdm Helen Balvatsky & Germain is quite interesting.

Here we have Charles W Leadbeater 33rd degree himself from "Glimpses of Masonic History" 1926:

[quote author=CWL]A definite commission appears to have been given to them by the H.O.A.T.F., the Master the Comte de S. Germain Himself, to mould all these various traditions, which He had caused them to inherit, into a rite which should express to some extent the power for good of the Egyptian succession in a form suited to a more modern age. These orders they proceeded to carry out as faithfully as possible, and the result of their labours was the Rite of Perfection or of Heredom of twenty-five degrees, all of which are still contained in our modern Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite.[/quote]

Germain = The central influence of masonic thought & reformation itself?!

Also, for any new ager who thinks this notion of the Akashic records is new:

[quote author=CWL]It will be seen that this occult knowledge depends no more upon the study of books and records than do the experiences of the mystics; both belong to a higher order of consciousness, the existence of which cannot be satisfactorily demonstrated on the physical plane. Neverthe less, the study of the physical-plane records of the past is of value in confirming the historical researches of the trained occultist, who is able to read what are sometimes called the akashic records, and so to acquire an accurate knowledge of the past. This subject is so little understood that it may perhaps be useful if at this point I quote somewhat at length from a book entitled Clairvoyance which I wrote many years ago:

34. On the mental plane (the records) have two widely different aspects. When the visitor to that plane is not thinking specially of them in any way, these records simply form a background to whatever is going on, just as the reflec tions in a pier-glass at the end of a room might form a background to the life of the people in it. It must always be borne in mind that under these condi tions they are really merely reflections from the ceaseless activity of a great Consciousness upon a far higher plane. …

35. But if the trained investigator turns his attention especially to any one scene, or wishes to call it up before him, an extraordinary change at once takes place, for this is the plane of thought, and to think of anything is to bring it instanta neously before you. For example, if a man wills to see the record of the land ing of Julius Caesar in England, he finds himself in a moment … standing on the shore among the legionaries, with the whole scene being enacted around him, precisely in every respect as he would have seen it if he had stood there in the flesh on that autumn morning in the year 55 B.C. Since what he sees is but a reflection, the actors are of course entirely unconscious of him, nor can any effort of his change the course of their action in the smallest degree, except only that he can control the rate at which the drama shall pass before him - can have the events of a whole year rehearsed before his eyes in a single hour, or can at any moment stop the movement altogether, and hold any par ticular scene in view as a picture as long as he chooses.

36. In truth he observes not only what he would have seen if he had been there at the time in the flesh, but much more. He hears and understands all that the people say, and he is conscious of all their thoughts and motives; and one of the most interesting of the many possibilities which open up before one who has learnt to read the records is the study of the thought of ages long past - the thought of the cave-men and the lake-dwellers as well as that which ruled the mighty civilizations of Atlantis, of Egypt or Chaldaea. What splen did possibilities open up before the man who is in full possession of this power may easily be imagined. He has before him a field of historical research of most entrancing interest. Not only can he review at his leisure all history with which we are acquainted, correcting as he examines it the many errors and misconceptions which have crept into the accounts handed down to us; he can also range at will over the whole story of the world from its very begin ning, watching the slow development of intellect in man, the descent of the Lords of the Flame, and the growth of the mighty civilizations which They founded.[/quote]

and:

[quote author=CWL]The whole position will be best understood if it can be realized that the plan of Masonry is in the hands of the H.O.A.T.F., who rules His mighty Order with perfect justice and the most marvellous skill, so that all that can be done is done for the greatest good of all. The powers that stand behind Freemasonry are great and holy, and it is but right that they should be conferred in their fullness only upon those who are likely to use them as they should be used and to treat them with the reverence they deserve. There is a great and glorious reality in the background all the time, ever pressing towards realization, and employing whatever channels are available for its manifestation. Whatever can be used is always used to the very fullest extent, and none need fear that he is overlooked. It is obvious, however, that where the Brn. think more of gratifying their own vanity than of the Hidden Work, where they spend their time in banqueting and revelry and curtail the sacred ritual in order that they may adjourn as quickly as possible to the South, they are less worthy channels of the Divine Glory than those more spiritual Brn. who are willing to study and to understand. All the time the H.O.A.T.F. is watching; He sees the slightest endeavor of the Craftsmen to serve, and He will pour forth His won drous power just in so far as the Brn. become worthy of it.[/quote]

So freemasons enshrining Germain for hundreds of years. Wow.

EDIT: And David Icke claims to be "exposing the freemasons" ?!?

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

A small correction regarding this from earlier in the thread:

Serpent Men are humanoids with scaled skin and snake-like heads. They possess magical abilities, the most common of which is the use of illusion to disguise themselves as a human. In some stories, the ghost of someone killed by a Serpent Man becomes the Serpent Man's slave. Due to the shape of their mouths, Serpent Men cannot utter the phrase "Ka nama kaa lajerama." Howard's character Kull uses the phrase as a shibboleth in the story The Shadow Kingdom.

For anyone who's interested, the full story can be read here: http://manybooks.net/pages/howardrother07shadow_kingdom/0.html

Interestingly, I remember seeing references on "reptilian" websites to some odd-sounding phrase that a "shape-shifter" couldn't speak, and knowledge of this fact could be used to prove them as a reptilian. After reading the above, though, this idea must have come from the Howard story. Somebody probably applied it to "real" reptilians (possibly as a joke or sarcasm) - then it somehow spread over the Internet as fact.

It turns out the idea did not originate with the Robert E. Howard story. It came from the Emerald Tablets of Thoth. So it looks like Howard was drawing from the following passage when he created his "Serpent Men."

Far in the past before Atlantis existed, men there were who delved into darkness, using dark magic, calling up beings from the great deep below us. Forth came they into this cycle. Formless were they of another vibration, existing unseen by the children of earth-men. Only through blood could they have formed being. Only through man could they live in the world.

In ages past were they conquered by Masters, driven below to the place whence they came. But some there were who remained, hidden in spaces and planes unknown to man. Lived they in Atlantis as shadows, but at times they appeared among men. Aye, when the blood was offered, for they came they to dwell among men.

In the form of man they amongst us, but only to sight were they as are men. Serpent-headed when the glamour was lifted but appearing to man as men among men. Crept they into the Councils, taking forms that were like unto men. Slaying by their arts the chiefs of the kingdoms, taking their form and ruling o'er man. Only by magic could they be discovered. Only by sound could their faces be seen. Sought they from the Kingdom of shadows to destroy man and rule in his place.

But, know ye, the Masters were mighty in magic, able to lift the Veil from the face of the serpent, able to send him back to his place. Came they to man and taught him the secret, the WORD that only a man can pronounce. Swift then they lifted the Veil from the serpent and cast him forth from the place among men.

Yet, beware, the serpent still liveth in a place that is open at times to the world. Unseen they walk among thee in places where the rites have been said. Again as time passes onward shall they take the semblance of men.

This reads like a David Icke prototype. So well, that it's as if it was "inspired" by the same force that "inspired" Icke. Or like it may have even been "planted" back in history with Icke in mind. It's funny how writings like this are used as proof by Icke and his ilk, as if it's trustworthy just because it's really, really old.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Argonaut, E, et al. I just wanted to say thanks again for a most enlightening discussion!!

Your point about mdm Helen Balvatsky & Germain is quite interesting.

Here we have Charles W Leadbeater 33rd degree himself from "Glimpses of Masonic History" 1926:

[quote author=CWL]A definite commission appears to have been given to them by the H.O.A.T.F., the Master the Comte de S. Germain Himself, to mould all these various traditions, which He had caused them to inherit, into a rite which should express to some extent the power for good of the Egyptian succession in a form suited to a more modern age. These orders they proceeded to carry out as faithfully as possible, and the result of their labours was the Rite of Perfection or of Heredom of twenty-five degrees, all of which are still contained in our modern Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite.

Germain = The central influence of masonic thought & reformation itself?!

[/quote]

Hm... This could just be Leadbeater's take on things. But it's still interesting that a Theosophist/33rd Degree Mason has such a view of St Germain.

Also, for any new ager who thinks this notion of the Akashic records is new:

<snip>

Theosophy is definitely one of the New Age's major foundations.

So freemasons enshrining Germain for hundreds of years. Wow.

EDIT: And David Icke claims to be "exposing the freemasons" ?!?

He claims to be now, but back when he accepted St Germain things were different. He was hooked right up to the primary disinfo source, it seems. St Germain is said to be part of "The Council of Nine." The "Ascended Masters"/"Great White Brotherhood" are different names for the same thing. Much of New Age channeling comes from entities claiming to be part of this group. Although Icke discredits this stuff nowadays, he's never answered for the fact that his career was launched by obeying those very entities.

Regarding the Freemasons, I've always wondered about my uncle and aunt. He was a 33rd Degree, and she worked for NASA. He also lived in Boulder, CO, just 30 mins away from Denver. I remember when I left home for college, he sent me a letter saying that he'd help me financially with anything I needed; all I had to do was ask. I've always thought that was weird because I barely knew him. Maybe it was because he never had any children? My dad (his brother) always said that my uncle had some "strange ideas" about things, and seemed to be a very selfish person. Also fairly vindictive. As a child I had many unusual "paranormal" type experiences, my first remembered one was a possible abduction when I was 5. These things stopped right about when I left home, when he sent me the letter. I wonder if there was a connection between all of that and him, somehow. His offer of help almost sounded like he felt obligated to me for something. This is all just speculation, but I sit and wonder sometimes what may have been going on behind the scenes when I was younger.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

[quote author=Argonuat]Maybe it was because he never had any children? My dad (his brother) always said that my uncle had some "strange ideas" about things, and seemed to be a very selfish person. Also fairly vindictive.[/quote]

The last 33rd degree parent I knew sodomized his son nightly for years.

[quote author=Argonaut]He also lived in Boulder, CO, just 30 mins away from Denver. I remember when I left home for college, he sent me a letter saying that he'd help me financially with anything I needed; all I had to do was ask.[/quote]

I have "heard" tale of massive underground digs in Boulder. When the director of Ames Research Center was on "60 Minutes" describing NASA's new position that life exists "everywhere it can in the universe" (circa 1999?) he mentioned that in the early years, they approached the ivy league schools with offers to develop the ET research, but none of them would touch it. He said publicly on TV that UC Boulder was chosen for the research. fwiw