abovetopscret.com, Project SERPO, Project Camelot, Project Avalon

[Cyre2067]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

Sorry to hear about your experience with ATS Scio, i never hit that forum before, and i never was a forum goer before stumbling onto SOTT. From what i've seen here ATS, David Icke, Alex Jones and the guys that made Loose Change are directly or indirecly cointelpro. It's a pain, but at least i know SOTT isn't.

 

[Anders]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

Sorry to hear about your experience with ATS Scio, i never hit that forum before, and i never was a forum goer before stumbling onto SOTT. From what i've seen here ATS, David Icke, Alex Jones and the guys that made Loose Change are directly or indirecly cointelpro. It's a pain, but at least i know SOTT isn't.

I am not sure that the people behind Loose change is cointelpro directly or indirectly. As I remember it, they made a good job of it and pointed out that the Pentagon strike could not have been done by a plane. Now, I will have to see it again to refresh my memory:) Let me know if you have some specific info that validates lumping them together with the rest. I have not seen any threads in that regard.

 

[anart]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

But perhaps what I did was indeed unthoughtful and wasteful, and perhaps detrimental in the end? I am well aware that good intentions without knowledge, pave the way to hell. Had I know that this thread would create all that has transpired, I would've definitely thought twice before making it...

It seems to me that the result of what you seem to be apologizing for is an unmasking of ATS and an ongoing unmasking of those like them. No matter how messy it may be, that is a good thing for all sincere people involved, so the role you played was ultimately not only necessary but also beneficial. Or so it seems to me.

 

[Darren]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

Sorry to hear about your experience with ATS Scio, i never hit that forum before, and i never was a forum goer before stumbling onto SOTT. From what i've seen here ATS, David Icke, Alex Jones and the guys that made Loose Change are directly or indirecly cointelpro. It's a pain, but at least i know SOTT isn't.

I am not sure that the people behind Loose change is cointelpro directly or indirectly. As I remember it, they made a good job of it and pointed out that the Pentagon strike could not have been done by a plane. Now, I will have to see it again to refresh my memory:) Let me know if you have some specific info that validates lumping them together with the rest. I have not seen any threads in that regard.

Another way to look at Loose Change is this. You don't get your film broadcast on TV networks worldwide if it's a real threat to the the ptb. Neither do you find it in 300+ cinemas across the US, which, assuming there isn't a large scale event beforehand to change this, is apparently what's planned.

That doesn't necessarily imply that the creators are cointelpro. It appears that they are being used.

 

[Chris]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

ScioAgapeOmnis wrote:

But perhaps what I did was indeed unthoughtful and wasteful, and perhaps detrimental in the end? I am well aware that good intentions without knowledge, pave the way to hell. Had I know that this thread would create all that has transpired, I would've definitely thought twice before making it...

From what I understand, you made a good willed attempt to spread what you thought was right (knowledge, 2+2=4), to a group you thought was interested in knowledge. Therefore, whatever the result or later attacks on you or the source of the information, I don't see it as detrimental, at least for the searcher of knowledge.

If you have read at least a part of the C's transcript, you will see that they refuse (at least I don't remember them do that) to answer general questions that ask if whatever event was good or detrimental in a general sense because it depends on the point of view of the individual and his prejudices. Then, was it detrimental? To who? Was it detrimental to the author of the original article? If he made the errors voluntarily or was too subjective to see them as errors, then yes, because you exposed them. If he is open minded and decides to consider these new informations and is able to defend his point of view afterwards, then not detrimental, because he has learned in the process. For the other readers, if they look for truth, you have given them some new information to verify and consider.

Finally, I didn't try to find your original post on the subject since you said it was deleted, but maybe you can reflect on the way you presented your ideas and the media you chose (the author's board), which can affect a lot, how the message is received on the other end, especially when you contradict the owner of the board... If I was to contradict some ideas that Laura or Ark introduced, on this board, I would certainly use a lot, lot of care, be sure that what I bring is well documented, even if I think that they are a lot more open minded than others, because, if I'm wrong, I may cause prejudice to them. I would most probably write to them in private first though.

Regarding subsequent posts:

Cyre wrote:
From what i've seen here ATS, David Icke, Alex Jones and the guys that made Loose Change are directly or indirecly cointelpro. It's a pain, but at least i know SOTT isn't.

I think that we should never assume that any source is good, is not cointelpro or is not influenced or manipulated by it in part or completely, even here! It is always necessary to verify, at least a part (I know it can be tedious and we don't have all the time in the world...), maybe these sources were at first legitimate and then got taken over, what in a theorical sense could happen here also...

On the other end, I don't think it is good to stamp a site cointelpro because they broadcasts sometimes info that comes or may come from cointelpro. The point is to try to discover if they did it deliberately or by mistake because of a lack of knowledge, effort to verify it's degree of thruth, etc. I think that it's more the reaction to the exposing that is reveiling of the true nature of the persons behing the info.

Even here, out of the number of informations, it may and most probably has happened that some distorted informations have passed through the filters that the persons are working hard to keep, they are not perfect and they work with partial information of the whole picture, as all of us, so that leaves room for manipulation. What is more important is to look for the motives of the individuals, if they do an open minded research for thruth. We all have to do that on an individual basis if we want to get a clearer idea of what is going on in this soup!

Well, I have written a lot more than I thought I would... Have a nice evening.

 

[Anders]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

Another way to look at Loose Change is this. You don't get your film broadcast on TV networks worldwide if it's a real threat to the the ptb. Neither do you find it in 300+ cinemas across the US, which, assuming there isn't a large scale event beforehand to change this, is apparently what's planned.

That doesn't necessarily imply that the creators are cointelpro. It appears that they are being used.

Thanks for filling me in. I was unaware that it was mass distributed and as you say, that only happens if it suits the PTB.

 

[true-lilly]

ATS

I love it when people chose to declare others need to learn and believe what they are selling, before their views should be concidered. It proves so much of The Living Word you aim to direct people away from.

"Selling" Evil, like brainwashing, animal training and propaganda, works best when it's laced with, "truth, love and light rewards", and this is what most forums do.

It's those who expose the "sales and marketing techniques", who are forced to either write long, referenced, essays, to prove their message isn't what salesmen and agenda pushers claim it is, or seem proven wrong if they won't be drawn into a game of 'weighty word stacking'.

Some things are just simple and can be explained in a few simple words, and to those of us fighting to expose how paedophiles stay covered, ATS is a 'poster child'.

I know of and miss the good people there, as I've made clear, yet you chose to strongly imply I'm tarring all there with the same brush due to an ignorance you strongly imply I suffer from. This is a cheap trick to shut ears to a voice you don't want heard.

Actually, re-reading your too long and deliberately repetative (constantly 'drip feeding your message), post, you use too many of those smarmy, thought stopping 'tricks', for me to trust your source, motivation and ultimate intent.

So why are you the only one allowed to tear strips off ATS? Or is that in the past now that "they" have "taught" you the error of your ways.

Yet again on a conspiracy forum, the "Greatest Evil" is exposing how the oldest evils stay covered, and doing it for free.

Again, your chosing to ignor the first hand expertise of a surviver of SRA and make the issue, the acceptance of your take on evil, shows who's side you are not on. Thanks for not surprising me.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

ATS

I love it when people chose to declare others need to learn and believe what they are selling, before their views should be concidered. It proves so much of The Living Word you aim to direct people away from.

The Living Word? If you're talking about the Bible, then you're right. You won't find any of us preaching that tired propaganda. Perhaps you could buy a copy of Political Ponerology (or read the numerous excerpts available online, if you're so adverse to buying the product (I mean, who ever heard of selling books anyways?)) to understand how an ideology like "Christianity," Masonry, or any other can be corrupted by psychopathic individuals.

I really had a hard time following your post. Perhaps you can help me clear up a few things.

"Selling" Evil, like brainwashing, animal training and propaganda, works best when it's laced with, "truth, love and light rewards", and this is what most forums do.

Are you implying this forum is laced with "truth, love and light rewards"? Well, you might be right about the truth part, but I don't know for certain...

It's those who expose the "sales and marketing techniques", who are forced to either write long, referenced, essays, to prove their message isn't what salesmen and agenda pushers claim it is, or seem proven wrong if they won't be drawn into a game of 'weighty word stacking'.

It sounds like you are saying this (please correct me if I'm wrong):

"It's those who expose the "sales and marketing techniques" (e.g. SOTT exposing ATS selling and marketing their disinfo), who are forced to write long, referenced essays (like Laura's on ATS and their manipulations), to prove their message (i.e. that the US, among others, is quickly becoming a fascist state) isn't what salesmen and agenda pushers (i.e. ATS) claim it is (i.e. selling a product) [...]"

If this is what you are saying, I don't see how it fits in with the rest of your post.

Some things are just simple and can be explained in a few simple words, and to those of us fighting to expose how paedophiles stay covered, ATS is a 'poster child'.

I know of and miss the good people there, as I've made clear, yet you chose to strongly imply I'm tarring all there with the same brush due to an ignorance you strongly imply I suffer from. This is a cheap trick to shut ears to a voice you don't want heard.

Where was this implied? Laura said, "It also doesn't help anything by saying that ATS is promoting OTO, Masons and Occultists BY attacking survivors of SRA. If you understand that, from another perspective, alleged survivors of SRA are accusing innocent people when they put a blanket label on these organizations, it is easy to understand the response." Or were you referring to something else?

Actually, re-reading your too long and deliberately repetative (constantly 'drip feeding your message), post, you use too many of those smarmy, thought stopping 'tricks', for me to trust your source, motivation and ultimate intent.

So why are you the only one allowed to tear strips off ATS? Or is that in the past now that "they" have "taught" you the error of your ways.

CoIntelPro mixes disinfo with true info. Remember Serpo? Even though the ATS guys (or at least Wayne) was behind it, ATS officially regarded it as a hoax, which it is. On the surface, they were "right."

Yet again on a conspiracy forum, the "Greatest Evil" is exposing how the oldest evils stay covered, and doing it for free.

Again, your chosing to ignor the first hand expertise of a surviver of SRA and make the issue, the acceptance of your take on evil, shows who's side you are not on. Thanks for not surprising me.

Perhaps you should re-read Laura's "deliberately repetative (constantly drip feeding your message) post."

I almost didn't see this coming... Thanks for not surprising us.

 

[Cricket]

ATS

true-lilly, as I was reading your post (have read your former posts too), I was thinking: She has got wrong the message (what Laura was exposing yet anothert time)!
I was trully thinking: true-lilly is deeply hurted by what she has discovered happening at that other forum and she demands some sort of counter-action against such a situation. I share this feeling: Although I have not read that other site, (and will not do: I dont have time to waist there) I am disgusted about this pedophilia in general and the one you have discovered there (and you are also reacting on the way they treated you, I feel more than to the problem you discovered there). Which is not only happening there and, there, is not even the most powerful motor to pedophilia, but drug-traffic. This is a tremendous problem up to international level: It is BIGGER than what you seem have discovered just rescently.
And as I was reading you (on the past days I was also waiting for you to open that other thread you were suggested to open, to discuss presisely this your concerns -and you reacted with vehemency, to me it seemed you were almost offended), I was following your steps leading you out of the comments offered, to try to understand you, and was trying to follow the steps you were following on your own: Same line as in your former posts related to this problem.
Then I realized you sound a lot like my ex-wife.
Now: I have a pretty good idea what will you pull from here, and what comments will this inspire from you. To that, I most tell you I have been working really hard since the last two years to overcome that experience. It has been hard work, hard to re-build my self and I am proud of what I have done so far for my self. Allow me to stress "hard": It sunk me into a place that, latter, I came to understand as "ponerology", and all her actions and frame of mind (while we still had contact) came to confirm this realization: Free opinions. Sudden interpretations and, mostly, blind eyes for evidence and rejection for new, fresh, higher level input of knowledge. Just the same record playing over and over...
She was offended. Thats what it was about. It was not about me offending her or even the world being "wrong". The show was called: "Hey, I am VERY offended!"
This work, Ponerology, plus the work of Laura here at the website, and her opinions, and the ideas I have been learning and understanding at the forum and at casschat (that was to say I DO think I am well accuainted with the information on this site), strongly contradicts the opinions you have expressed about Laura and the work happening here, which includes many people: We are trying to Network.
Many people who are aware of what is happening (on the internet and on the world), and are definetelly and activelly working to participate and sustain a experience where free expression and study and networking takes place instead of the ponerogenic one you are comming from.
Have you read this article?:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
I do not think you have.
I invite you to read it, and then re-read your post BEFORE posting again: It will be a excercise you will remember for a long time.
Actually it will be a "spiritualizing factor", as Gurdjieff calls it.
Controll your emotions for this time and do the work. You just might realize of many other things on the way!
I am not attacking you or defending Laura (I just resently learned, all by my self that she, along with many other people here, can do that pretty well by their selfs), and it is not about now calling for a "gang gathering" against you.
I am writting this because I do think you are mistaken (no one told me to write this, and no one told me what to say), and I am writting to you because there is one thing I am shure about: We are all learning.
I am writting to you because I am Working.
Join!

 

[true-lilly]

ATS

Ahh, the assumptions people make of those not in their camp.

Just as Laura likes to "test" new posters, I like to test the core and source of those claiming to "do good work" before I recommend them as sympathetic to survivers.

Despite 2 years (from 2 to 4) at the hands of evil ones calling themselves healers, that I never forgot, it was watching those who couldn't get on with life through the repeated abuse of being silenced, that started and has kept me speaking out for decades.

One thing all survivor advocates know is that only other survivor advocates care/posses the courage to educate the public about the use of this 'master key' to unlocking the growth of evil.

But I live in hope and thought, just maybe, this anti-Christian site that claims to educate others about how evil works, would care to be a secular champion of the voiceless by at least giving them a platform that didn't attack them for telling the ugly truth.

You state, whether you believe it or not, that I could do with the education on evil, promoted on this site, and compare me with an ex-wife. Again that 'tells' those who give weight to this work you support, "Don't listen to this one".

You have 'slyly' called me "evil" after all your study of this "work" yet invite me to 'join in it' though dismissively state you "don't have time to waste" learning the truth of International Child Sex and Sacrifice Rings that use the drug trade to discredit and silence their surviving victims.

Oh and there was that 'evil' little trick of using the "higher learning" comment to imply my learning is low.

Yes I am offended, by all who would rather intellectualize about evil than work to stop it and insultingly dismiss all those who continue to risk their lives to support and speak for the voiceless.

I am not however, offended by the posts of strangers that insult me, as I know they can't know just how deep and thorough my education in this area is and worrying about the opinions of those who either suffer their own form of ignorance or choose to lie, is foolish.

Pointing out the tricks of deceptions, used by those who work at maintaining the silence, as and when they use them, is a service to others still learning to recognize them and the duty of those who know and care.

If you can claim, that informing people of how this sort of evil;
http://www.care1.org/articles/a09_ritual_abuse.htm
grows because of the cover of silence, is counter to the work of teaching people to recognize the workings of evil, I have to doubt the work is what it claims.

I do find it telling that a good part of this work lays the foundation for lableing the survivors of SRA, evil and a danger to society. I'm sure it's proponents will soon be richly rewarded for inventing an "expert" excuse to further punish survivors.
Yes I did read that whole link and many more of the hypnotically plodding posts pushing the work, and encourage all who don't want to be 'labled' evil for having suffered evil done to them, to be aware of who the general acceptance of the claims of this work, ultimately benefits.

See, I point out how ATS works to help cover the greatest practice of evil, and I'm taken to task for going against this sites work to educate about evil. Sad, because it was no surprise.

 

[Guest]

ATS

What do you want, true-lilly? Do you want to launch a crusade?

You know my parents migrated to the US with me only three, and since they both had to work they put me in a church sponsored day-care center. Most if not all of the 4-5 year olds in the center were repeatedly molested by one priest there, forcing the children to look at icons of Jesus while he was abusing them. I was repeatedly beaten by these people because I almost clawed the priest's eyes out and got away, and afterward refused to be alone with any of them. It took me years to get at the memories. So maybe techincally I am not a victim, but I sure know about nightmares.

I also know that to strike at evil, you have to strike at the root, not keep endlessly pruning branches, WHICH DOES NOTHING BUT HELP THE TREE OF EVIL GROW. To strike at evil, you have to transmute the hatred within or it will consume you.

I have no agenda. Cricket has no agenda. But your expression is dripping rage and hatred. That is understood. But as long as you are ruled by it, you can do no good. That is why such abomnable acts are perpetuated, so we become consumed by what we hate. And when we become so consumed we are powerless to address evil.

There is no way words can make a difference here. You, or rather your rage and hurt, wants validation. You want direct action. Yet this evil is far more complex and pervasive than action directed at its effects can accomodate. Even so, it may be your way. It's just that crusaders tend to end up with the blood of the innocent on their hands, just as they seek to punish the guilty. And you may strike one guilty one down, in one way or another, and a hundred will replace him, and more than likely you will end up attacking others who are innocent.

You know the molesting priest is now a wealthy bishop in New York. I've thought about slitting his throat because there is no way I can prove anything he did. And many of those around him are probably like him as well. And good Christians support him as well as evil people. And the good are just as determined to insure that their almightly Christian religion has no blemish.

Yet, God knows what happened to the hundreds of children who passed through his hands, because he made sure they knew that Jesus would damn them to a far worse fate if they talked. This is the Jesus these children, now adults know. If I blocked it out, having barely escaped, I cannot imagine what these people now in their 40's, must hold inside.

But that does not change anything. If you are too wounded to see clearly then you will not see. The poison transmitted in such abuse festers, and can only be satisfied by revenge. And that is an illusion because unless the poison itself is addressed no "justice" can satisfy it. Contrary to what you say, those most wounded are the least effective to deal with the problem, at least until those wounds are healed no matter what scars remain. Really, in fact I'm not writing to convince you of anything, I just felt I had to say my piece.

And my piece is that only by striking at the root causes of evil, and the roots of how evil works can anything be accomplished, which includes saving the innocent. And before the roots are struck, the roots must be found. Blindness only begets disaster. If you cannot see the meaning of Laura's argument, who is only asking you not to include the innocent in your quest to punish the guilty, and advises that you to know the difference instead of chasing down ideologies, then all you want is recruites for your crusade.

If that is your way, it is your way. But it is not the ONLY way, and history has proven not a very effective one at that. It is not that good people don't exist. There are many of them. It is that they have been divided from each other in their blindness, and have been used by the very system they fought, to destroy both themselves and many innocent bystanders. Your heart is not clear no matter what you say for there is much venom in your words, and without a clear heart (as impossible as it seems to attain) there is no hope.

Do not confuse disagreement with admonishment. Do not look for agendas or followers where there is only sincerity. I follow no one. And if you cannot understand anything expressed in this thread, it may be best to go your way and find your crusade elsewhere, because in my honest opinion, you will not find it here.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

ATS

You have 'slyly' called me "evil" after all your study of this "work" yet invite me to 'join in it' though dismissively state you "don't have time to waste" learning the truth of International Child Sex and Sacrifice Rings that use the drug trade to discredit and silence their surviving victims.

Cricket said he would not waste time looking at ATS. He did not say he would not waste time learning about child abuse and sacrfice. I admit that I cannot imagine what you must have gone through (and are going through now), but your emotions are clouding your judgment and you're reading the wrong intent into many of the things said in response to your posts. This only causes confusion and causes yourself more heartache.

I do find it telling that a good part of this work lays the foundation for lableing the survivors of SRA, evil and a danger to society. I'm sure it's proponents will soon be richly rewarded for inventing an "expert" excuse to further punish survivors.

Again, if you think the "work" here labels SRA victims, you are wrong. SRA is mentioned a few times on the site and in Laura's books and nowhere is it claimed that these victims are evil and a danger to society. What is mentioned is the obvious: such victims do exist, whether the cause of the abuse is what they say it is or something else entirely, and some of these victims are hoaxes or frauds. As in any issue of abuse, some people are attention-seekers, some are delusional, some are influenced to believe, etc. Do you think everyone who claims childhood abuse is telling the truth? No. Some lie, and some recover false memories. This does not, however, mean that all cases are frauds.

What Laura said in her last post was that these very SRA victims can just as easily blame innocent people if they focus on the ideological framework of an organization (like Masonry or High Magick) instead of the individual Psychpaths who commit the crimes or influence other individuals to commit crimes. She was not singling out SRA survivors, but pointing out a psychological fact: that people (anyone) lack sufficient knowledge about Psychopathy to see the root of the problem. Masonry isn't a bad thing. Secret societies aren't bad things. When psychpaths infilitrate these organizations, THAT is a bad thing.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

My Experience with Abovetopsecret.com

If you have read at least a part of the C's transcript, you will see that they refuse (at least I don't remember them do that) to answer general questions that ask if whatever event was good or detrimental in a general sense because it depends on the point of view of the individual and his prejudices.

Well that is true, but then what is detrimental to a truth seeker? I guess the most "detrimental" part would be himself, his entropic nature. But if he can overcome the inner battle, then the worse it gets externally, the more opportunity to learn and become stronger and wiser for it - as long as he does not succumb and fall to external pressure that is, but that would be his internal fault, since he had to choose to succumb. So it seems that pretty much everything that happens to one seeking truth can be seen as "positive" if the seeker utilizes it correctly and learns from it. Attacks can slow things down temporarily, but in the end, what does not kill you, makes you stronger, right? All there is is lessons, osit.

My only concern was that this might be financially detrimental to SOTT due to the "legal threats" that the ATS owners are making. But as long as SOTT does nothing illegal, I don't think they should have much to worry about in that regard, but I may be wrong.

Finally, I didn't try to find your original post on the subject since you said it was deleted, but maybe you can reflect on the way you presented your ideas and the media you chose (the author's board), which can affect a lot, how the message is received on the other end, especially when you contradict the owner of the board...

I did not try to defend anyone's side - I simply tried to use logic, reason, and evidence that *I* saw was there regarding CatHerder's article, Joe's article that was based on that, and the Pentagon strike issue in general. If Joe happened to be on the same side as I was, it was simply because he saw the same things, not because I am sticking up for Joe just for the sake of picking a side and sticking to it. However, I did not get into arguments, I was very neutral and simply pointed things out that I saw. And it was very clear that they had no evidence to argue against this, nor could they use any logic (except maybe a paralogic of sorts), since it was very clear what the answer was. So the only thing they had left is to distract from the main point and start on the same-old-same-old types of attacks against Laura, SOTT, myself, etc. Instantly you had people (curiously enough) getting "Maynerd Most's" articles about the evilness of Laura and her evil cult, and using that as evidence that the entire SOTT is crazy and evil, etc. Nevermind that most of what "Maynerd" says is easily proven wrong by reading Laura's work, and that which is not, has absolutely NO evidence to support it, not one bit. But either way, it was, as much other nonsense was as well, used as evidence that Laura, myself, the SOTT, were a bunch of insane crooks full of nonsensical gibberish, nothing more.

Anyway, it became so bad that I had to stop posting - it was pointless and a total waste of energy. It was a chaotic mess of attacks from every direction imaginable, and the original intention of the thread was so far gone that it was hopeless to ever even think that the conversation will ever return to the initial point - CatHerder's article and the points Joe made about it. In fact, the crazy part is - the very first reply to my thread was something along the lines of "I hope someone can find a way to destroy that website" (referring to SOTT I guess). I just kept staring at that post, it was so shocking to read that, I just kept trying to make sense of it, as in, why!? The poster did not provide any details, just that he wanted either the website or the article "destroyed".

The subject line of my thread (after SkepticOverlord, in true psychopathic nature, changed it from the original) was "CatHearder's analysis under critical scrutiny". I am looking for it now, and it looks like it was deleted - it's in the trashbin and unavailable to be viewed by anyone. Here's the link to it:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread189339/pg1

Read Laura's blog if you wonder why Skeptic changed the subject line. Specifically this post: http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/01/abovetopsecretcom-cointelpro-update-2.html

If I was to contradict some ideas that Laura or Ark introduced, on this board, I would certainly use a lot, lot of care, be sure that what I bring is well documented, even if I think that they are a lot more open minded than others, because, if I'm wrong, I may cause prejudice to them.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "cause prejudice to them"? I think you can contradict anything as long as you have evidence to back yourself up. If you start proclaiming stuff with no evidence, then it just amounts to noise and wastes everyone's time and energy. It would be no different than just making something up.

On the other end, I don't think it is good to stamp a site cointelpro because they broadcasts sometimes info that comes or may come from cointelpro. The point is to try to discover if they did it deliberately or by mistake because of a lack of knowledge, effort to verify it's degree of thruth, etc.

I agree that it's important to know this, but if a website is consistently doing it, then does it really matter if it's intentional or due to personal bias/ignorance? The effect is the same! Take ATS for example, it was created and is maintained for the purposes of cointelpro. Even if the owners themselves were just naive puppets, it still doesn't change the fact that the website is cointelpro since it acts as such (for the record though, there is much evidence to suggest that the owners are consciously in on it, but that's a different topic).

Many people excuse America's slaughter of the innocents in Iraq as "accidental" and so justified. In other words, the terrorists are evil because they TARGET civilians, but Americans are good because their INTENTIONS are to not target civilians, they just kill them accidentally! Aside from the fact that this is also simply untrue, and just for the sake of argument entertaining the idea that America only kills civilians by accident, it still doesn't change the fact that America killed more innocent people in Iraq than all "Terrorists" in the world combined. So whether they do it intentionally or not is important in and of itself, but it in no way detracts from the fact that the killing did happen, and so accidentally or not, America is a mass murderer of innocents. So in that same way, whether a website is intentionally cointelpro or not is important to know in and of itself for various reasons, but as long as a website acts as cointelpro, then the effect is the same whether it does so intentionally or not, osit.

Maybe the only difference is that, those who do it accidentally have hope - there is a chance that if you bring this up to them in a reasonable/logical manner and back yourself up with evidence, they may realise what they've been doing and stop. If it's intentional, then all such efforts are obviously a waste of energy. So for the sake of conservation of energy, I think it's very important to know. But even if the website is unintentionally cointelpro, there is usually a good reason for it - it's a bias/assumption/belief held by the owner. So the stronger the sacred cow, the less chance that logic/reason/evidence will ever do anything for him either. But at least he has some sort of chance, which is better than none :)

What is more important is to look for the motives of the individuals, if they do an open minded research for thruth.

But if the motives are there but the effort/critical-mindedness is not, then it's just as hopeless! Most people who go to Church have good motives - their intention is not to deceive themselves and others, not at all. They think it's the truth and they just want to help others by spreading it! So I'd say that for this work it is equally important to both have the intention AND an open/critical mind. If your mind isn't open or critical, you're a good-intentioned fool that will deceive himself and by extention everyone else! If your intentions are STS, then your open and critical mind will be used for those purposes, and so you'd be intentionally deceiving everybody. The former (good-intentioned fools) are always the puppets of the latter (STS-intentioned people with brains). And when you're a hand of the STS system, whether a conscious hand or not, you still do the same stuff - what the STS system wants you to do, osit.

At least that's my understanding of it, more or less!

 

[Cricket]

ATS

true-lilly: I am sorry but I cannot discuss with you anymore. Youre too emotionally intoxicated to recognize what is comunicated to you.
I see you are ofended. Well, the second stage on my ex-wife strategy was to claim to the entire universe that she was good and everybody else were bad.
See ya.

 

[Laura]

ATS

There is no way words can make a difference here. You, or rather your rage and hurt, wants validation. You want direct action. Yet this evil is far more complex and pervasive than action directed at its effects can accomodate. Even so, it may be your way. It's just that crusaders tend to end up with the blood of the innocent on their hands, just as they seek to punish the guilty. And you may strike one guilty one down, in one way or another, and a hundred will replace him, and more than likely you will end up attacking others who are innocent. (...)

And my piece is that only by striking at the root causes of evil, and the roots of how evil works can anything be accomplished, which includes saving the innocent. And before the roots are struck, the roots must be found. Blindness only begets disaster. 0...)If that is your way, it is your way. But it is not the ONLY way, and history has proven not a very effective one at that.

...your emotions are clouding your judgment and you're reading the wrong intent into many of the things said in response to your posts. This only causes confusion and causes yourself more heartache. (...) Do you think everyone who claims childhood abuse is telling the truth? No. Some lie, and some recover false memories. This does not, however, mean that all cases are frauds. (...)

She was not singling out SRA survivors, but pointing out a psychological fact: that people (anyone) lack sufficient knowledge about Psychopathy to see the root of the problem. Masonry isn't a bad thing. Secret societies aren't bad things. When psychpaths infilitrate these organizations, THAT is a bad thing.

Let me reiterate that my objective is to get to the root cause. I am pained by all the suffering of this planet in ways that I cannot even describe. The subject of child molestation and the hurting of the innocent is sometimes more than I can bear. Again, my objective is to get to the root cause. I have studied the history deeply and with great pain seeking the ROOT of it. I have seen that again and again, the wrong actions have been taken against the wrong people at the wrong time in the wrong way, and the problems continue to exist. Nothing has change. True Lilly, your approach has been tried, it has failed - more than once. Nothing has been accomplished. Please study the history of these things to come to some understanding about this. Your life and the lives of others may depend on this knowledge.

If the objective is to SOLVE this problem forever, so to say (even if that is an ambitious projection), then clearly, something needs to be done that has never been done before. We have to think out of the box. We have to stand on the shoulder of those who have gone before us and also learn from their mistakes.

So, I say to you: do not toss my words off lightly; do not think that I am rejecting your pain because I am trying to pull you back into rationality. That is NOT the case. I want, more than ever, to solve this problem. Please remember that I have five children that I love more than my life, and for them and their children, I would like to know that I can die in peace with the awareness that these kinds of issues are understood in the fullest way possible and that my descendants will have knowledge that will protect them from such predations. I want no less for you and those you love.

You will accomplish nothing but the perpetuation of the problem with the approach you are taking. You must free your mind of all prejudice and look at the problem with a cool head. If you REALLY want to solve the problem, that is; if you REALLY want to protect others from the same torments; if you REALLY want to make a difference, to shape a different future; you mist do SOMETHING DIFFERENT than what has been done before which has FAILED.

That is what I am saying to you. That is what Lobaczewski is saying to you.

If all you want to do is rant and rave and seek vengeance and make no changes in what is and what can be and what ought to be; if you don't care about anyone but yourself and your vengeance; if you don't care about the future of your children and your children's children, or my children and their children,;continue with your narrow view, your prejudices, your "blame game" and your seeking of cheap vengeance that solves nothing.

But if you want to make a difference, then begin to learn about the roots of the problem; try to understand that it is not about YOU, it is about a difference between different types of humans, and a reality that is complex and which needs a lot of thought and subtle understanding to navigate.

So, if you want to solve the problem, start to learn. If not, go elsewhere and take your rants with you.