abovetopscret.com, Project SERPO, Project Camelot, Project Avalon

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ATS

No sillies, I don't want a "Crusade", that's Laura's obsession. She want's to convince people that children who suffered at the hands of evil, BECOME EVIL themselves.
This aspect of the work is evil in itself.

I want to stop the Crusade to lie about and silence the survivors of SRA and Child Sex and Sacrifice, which you folk who claim to educate about "evil", seem to be a part of.

And Laura, if you had have read my posts as you claim, you wouldn't tell so many lies about what I'm saying...unless...umm...

Blood! Vengance! That isthe exact opposite to what I'm saying.
The active refusal of any authorities to shut down the Trade, is growing populations of those who seek to, "Catch and Kill their own", which is something that should not be.

When did Justic=vengance= evil? That's the "bad maths" you're applying to my posts, and "bad maths"=lies, in this case. The whole point of calling for Justice, is to save many from that harmfull cycle, which I've made perfectly clear on many occasions.

My posts are not about or for me (as you know I've made clear), but for everyone who suffers the many evils that grow from the practice of Child Sex and SRA.

The ROOT cause of this continuing evil, is Satanic, but you folk help him by denying his existance.

The reason it continues to grow is thesilencing by humiliation, death, blackmail, threats to loved ones and "Intellectualizing excuses" for "The Cover Of Silence".

Your excuses for why raising public awareness is wrong, and doesnt work, are the same as those involved in Child Sex, use to maintain silence.

Sure there have been large public awareness campaigns, but after the Power Elite are done with harrassing and destroying 'those loud mouths', there's a little rise in murders by some frustrated with the refusal of "Proper Channles" to deliver JUSTICE, but the overall message to The Evil, is they are untouchable and so, more succumb to the their evil temptations.

Folks, doing justice is not returning evil for evil but this "work" you're so proud of, that pushes this lie, is.

As for your heavy use of trigger words that paint a negative picture when responding to my posts, eg; emotional, hurt, attacking the innocent, I do hope those who study this "work" you're pushing, recognize it for what it is;manipulating perceptions of the facts in order to promote the lie.

The Lie, that it is wrong to highlight those groups that are sypathetic to, protective of and involved in Child Sex and Sacrifice, is so out of the Power Elite's Handbook, and why, the world over, there has been a major campaign to encourage people to form incorporated groups for every and any little interest.
It creates more who will defend the indefensible through the, "attack of one of our own, you attack all of us" mentality. You should work to change this mentality, rather than promote it, if you're telling the truth about the purpose of this "work".

So, to sum up why I don't trust a thing about you and your "work";
How many Catholic Priests were removed from harming more children when complaints were, handled behind closed doors to "protect the innocent", and how many after the issue got continuing mainstream media attention?

And all the Masons, Occultists and their ilk called, "Give Them The Priests, but get them off our backs."
The Priests said, "But we are also your 'Brothers'."
And their 'Brothers' said, "Brothers do their 'duty' for the Greater Good of The Work."

See, some people don't need long, hypnotic courses in 'recognizing' (then ignoring) "EVIL", they are the sort who when they see this "Work" that so consumes you, call it "Dangerous".
 
ATS

Personally, I have never been "consumed" by anything, and my energy is my own and stays with me, no matter the attempts to steal it. I call evil when I see it, although I call it by other names. I call confusion when I see it, too, and there is very much of it about.

The "work" that you refer to is not the "work" that I do on myself. It neither hypnotises nor consumes, but yes, it does have (small) dangers to the psyches of people not prepared for it who cannot direct their attention well. What is your perception of it? What is your perception of the "lie" that it promotes? From where have you drawn these beliefs?

I am also a long serving Freemason who has been in open Lodge in 30+ countries. I have never been aware of meeting a practising pedophile there in many years. If I met someone who intimated that they have engaged in this perversion, I would report them to the authorities immediately and ensure that they were removed from the community. And it is feasible for me to do that. It is not feasible for me to participate in "covering it up".
 
ATS

true-lilly said:
The ROOT cause of this continuing evil, is Satanic, but you folk help him by denying his existance.
If you think I (or the others on this board) deny the existence of evil (at the level of human or not) then you have obviously not been paying attention.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/high_strangeness.htm
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/monster.htm
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/demons.htm
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/thebeast.htm

Your excuses for why raising public awareness is wrong, and doesnt work, are the same as those involved in Child Sex, use to maintain silence.
If you think I (or the others on this boad) deny awareness about child sex and abuse, you have not really been paying attention.

http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/signs20060311.php

Folks, doing justice is not returning evil for evil but this "work" you're so proud of, that pushes this lie, is.
If you think doing justice is watching all these people slaughtered, you are no better than they are. If not, you'd do better to go after those who are REALLY guilty, not Masons or Magicians. Have you learned nothing from the witch hunts of the 15th to 17th centuries??

If you think this site does not want "justice," you have not been paying attention.

As for your heavy use of trigger words that paint a negative picture when responding to my posts, eg; emotional, hurt, attacking the innocent, I do hope those who study this "work" you're pushing, recognize it for what it is;manipulating perceptions of the facts in order to promote the lie.
This is a manipulation technique. You're the one using "trigger words that paint a negative picture" by "attacking the innocent." As I said in my first reply, thank you for not surprising me.

The Lie, that it is wrong to highlight those groups that are sypathetic to, protective of and involved in Child Sex and Sacrifice, is so out of the Power Elite's Handbook, and why, the world over, there has been a major campaign to encourage people to form incorporated groups for every and any little interest.
It creates more who will defend the indefensible through the, "attack of one of our own, you attack all of us" mentality. You should work to change this mentality, rather than promote it, if you're telling the truth about the purpose of this "work".
The Lie--that it is wrong to expose those deviants that are sympathetic to, protective of and involved in Child Sex, Sacrifice, Torture, Murder, Manipulation, Power-grabbing, heartache, Lies--is straight out of the Pathocrats Handbook, and is why, the world over, there has been a major campaign to encourage people to form groups that are subsequently co-opted by the very forces they are attempting to fight. It creates more who will defend the deviants through the, "attack of one of our own, you attack all of us" mentality. You should work to recognize this mentality and expose those who are really responsible, that is, of course, if you're telling the truth about the purpose of this "Living Word."

So, to sum up why I don't trust a thing about you and your "work";
How many Catholic Priests were removed from harming more children when complaints were, handled behind closed doors to "protect the innocent", and how many after the issue got continuing mainstream media attention?
And who is at the root of the problem? Have you honestly not read a word of the replies to your posts? I'm starting to wonder if you really are doing this out of compassion, or if it is not just your nature to tenaciously attack those you think are wrong.
 
ATS

Hkoehli said:
And who is at the root of the problem? Have you honestly not read a word of the replies to your posts? I'm starting to wonder if you really are doing this out of compassion, or if it is not just your nature to tenaciously attack those you think are wrong.
It is painfully obvious at this point that true-lilly has either not read a word of the replies to her posts, (or a word of the background on Laura's work) or she has read these things and is simply incapable of understanding them. At this point, her posts have entered the realm of vengeful fantasy based on an interpretation that could not be farther from the truth. The most unfortunate aspect of this situation is her dismissal of ideas and techniques that would make a positive difference in her situation. We have nothing to offer anyone with ears so plugged and eyes so closed, and it is past time true-lilly moved along to places that hold information she may be more able to grasp. This quote really says it all:

truelilly said:
So, to sum up why I don't trust a thing about you and your "work"
Although this raises the question of why you are 'wasting your time and energy' here in the first place, at this point it simply accentuates the fact that it would be best to do yourself (and us) a favor and take your raging elsewhere.
 
ATS

Anart said:
Although this raises the question of why you are 'wasting your time and energy' here in the first place, at this point it simply accentuates the fact that it would be best to do yourself (and us) a favor and take your raging elsewhere.
Seems to me that the question is answered by true-lilly's own comments.

true-lilly said:
I want to stop the Crusade to lie about and silence the survivors of SRA and Child Sex and Sacrifice, which you folk who claim to educate about "evil", seem to be a part of. [...]

The ROOT cause of this continuing evil, is Satanic, but you folk help him by denying his existance.
 
ATS

Lilly's goal is all fine and good IF what she is talking about has any basis in fact. That is why I suggested that she start a thread and begin presentation of what facts there may be for others to review and consider. Here are some things I wrote in Secret History that really need to be considered also:

Based on the documents assembled by Dolan, it is obvious that the governments of the world do indeed see the UFO problem as a very, very serious matter. In the course of assembling the documents and reporting the events, Dolan came to the inescapable conclusion that there exists an "Above Top Secret" group with access to all available UFO data, and that this group "straddled" the worlds of government, military, and industry. The evidence proves that the military created a complete fiction for public consumption designed to convince the masses that the UFO problem was "nonexistent." They were assisted in pulling the wool over the eyes of the public by "heavy handed official media and culture," and they were obviously under orders to consistently and repeatedly "debunk" the idea that aliens were ensconced in our world. What seems to be true is that most of our elected officials are as much victims of the debunking as anybody else. And the same is true about mainstream science.

Dolan writes:

Next to the bureau, the military intelligence services became the most important component of the domestic intelligence scene. Army intelligence had nearly unlimited funds, extensive manpower, specialized personnel, deep planning and training resources, and the most sophisticated communications and data processing capability. [...] The army's intelligence surveillance did not focus on tactical and reconnaissance data, but on political and ideological intelligence within the United States. (This was wholly illegal.) [...]

Then there was the CIA. By the late 1960s, there were more spies than diplomats in the State Department, or employees in the Department of Labor. [...] When the Weather Underground, a radical splinter of the SDS, had an "acid test" to detect agent's provocateurs, they had no idea that the CIA had been tripping on LSD throughout the 1950s, creating a special caste of "enlightened agents" for precisely these occasions. [Based on this, we wonder about "agents provocateur" in the New Age and UFO community who are "specially trained"?]

The agency continued its work on mind control. Following the work of Dr. Jose Delgado [experiments in] Electrical Stimulation of the Brain [were conducted.] This involves implanting electrodes into the brain and body, with the result that the subject's memory, impulses, and feelings could all be controlled. Moreover, ESB could evoke hallucinations, as well as fear and pleasure. "It could literally manipulate the human will at will," [said Dr. Robert Keefe, a neurosurgeon at Tulane University.]

In 1968, George Estabrooks, another spook scientist, spoke indiscreetly to a reporter for the Providence Evening Bulletin. "The key to creating an effective spy or assassin, rests in creating a multiple personality with the aid of hypnosis," a procedure which he described as "child's play."

By early 1969, teams within the CIA were running a number of bizarre experiments in mind control under the name Operation Often. In addition to the normal assortment of chemists, biologists, and conventional scientists, the operation employed psychics and experts in demonology.

Over at the NSA, all one can say with certainty is that its budget dwarfed all others within the intelligence community.
Dolan documents how the intelligence organizations of the United States - and very likely other countries who are working in concert with them, though outwardly they may pretend to be oppositional - have conducted terminal mind-control experiments, biological spraying of American cities, human plutonium and syphilis injections, illegal communications interception, and nationwide domestic surveillance of private citizens, political assassinations and coups, ongoing media manipulation and outright public lying on a continual basis, most especially in regards to UFOs. The above organizations, via any and all means available, made sure that, to the public at large, UFOs and aliens were a "dead issue."

Scientist and UFO disclosure advocate James McDonald said in 1969: "I am enough of a realist to sense that, unless this AAAS symposium succeeds in making the scientific community aware of the seriousness of the UFO problem, little response to any call for new investigations is likely to appear." McDonald presented a brilliant paper entitled "Science in Default: Twenty-two Years of Inadequate UFO Investigations." Dolan comments that it was "perhaps the most damning statement about UFO research ever made." Speaking before the convention at Boston's Sheraton Plaza Hotel, McDonald came down hard on everyone: Condon, Menzel, Hynek, and finally the scientific establishment itself. He said:

No scientifically adequate investigation of the UFO problem has been carried out during the entire twenty-two years that have now passed since the first extensive wave of sightings of unidentified aerial objects in the summer of 1947. ...In my opinion, the UFO problem, far from being the nonsense problem that many scientists have often labeled it, constitutes a problem of extraordinary scientific interest. The grave difficulty with essentially all past UFO studies had been that they were either devoid of any substantial scientific content, or else have lost their way amidst the relatively large noise content that tends to obscure the real signal in the UFO reports.
This high noise to signal ratio is, based on the evidence, the direct product of the frenzied activities of the "National Security State" in their promulgation of the New Age/Human Potential smoke and mirrors magic show. What is also clearly evident is that this noise is the fundament of the prevailing scientific doctrine. What we see is that the Scientific Community - though they claim to be seekers of advanced scientific truth - have been as easily duped as Joe Sixpack and Shirley Seeker of Truth. The former is interested in little more than his truck, his dog, and his weekend football game, while the latter is generally looking for a lifestyle of higher "experiences." What I also suspect is that even the lower echelons of the intelligence and military organizations must be included in this rather large grouping of the duped and deceived sheep.

An example of this duping of those investigating the matter from the "bottom up," is Andrew Tully who wrote The Super Spies, supposedly an early report on the NSA. He, and many who have followed him, suggest that the UFO is an "intelligence" device and that it evolved out of Nazi Secrets brought to the US under Project Paperclip.

Dolan lays out the evidence and disabuses us of the notion that the UFO activity could be human, technological breakthroughs as such naive conspiracy theorists propose. As he says, "all of the indicators point to a definitive NO." He then points out that, every single person who actually studies the UFO problem [yours truly included - who began as a flaming skeptic] - becomes convinced that it IS a problem of Alien invasion of our planet. Every official study of UFOs persuaded the researchers that aliens were the explanation for the data. But that data has been denied, and when denial no longer worked, it was obscured by the noise, the smoke and mirrors that prevail today in UFO research and the New Age and Human Potential movements. Do we think that this is coincidence?

Another evident production of "noise" is the nonsense that passes today as "channeling" or "alien contacts". Indeed, our own work involves what can certainly be called inspirational material, but as we have noted repeatedly, it is not your usual "channeled" info, nor do we treat it as such. For us, a controlled channeling experiment is the 10% inspiration that must be matched by the 90% perspiration of real research. With a broad historical awareness of the facts, a firm grounding in the realization that most of what is out there is deliberate disinformation, the individual who surveys the plethora of "alternative information" in books and on the internet, can easily recognize the "noise" factor produced by the Secret State. Dolan tells us:

By the early 1970s, there were already means available to alter the moods of unsuspecting persons. A pocket-sized transmitter generating electromagnetic energy at less than 100 milliwatts could do the job. This is no pie-in-the-sky theory. In 1972, Dr. Gordon J.F. McDonald testified before the House Subcommittee on Oceans and International Environment on the issue of electromagnetic weapons used for mind control and mental disruption. He stated:

[T]he basic notion was to create, between the electrically charged ionosphere in the higher part of the atmosphere and conducting layers of the surface of the Earth, this neutral cavity, to create waves, electrical waves that would be tuned to the brain waves. ...About ten cycles per second. ...You can produce changes in behavioral patterns or in responses.
The following year, Dr. Joseph C. Sharp, at Walter Reed Hospital, while in a soundproof room, was able to hear spoken words broadcast by 'pulsed microwave audiogram.' These words were broadcast to him without any implanted electronic translation device. Rather, they reached him by direct transmission to the brain.
We have already noted the fact that research in Electrical Stimulation of the brain could produce hallucinations. If you put hallucinations together with words, you can produce just about anything that you want in the way of "noise" to obscure the truth - including the "shape-shifting reptoids-as-humans," or a "gray dude in the bathroom," or a "Guardian Alliance," or a "Nibiruan Council," or an "Ashtar Command," or talking whales and dolphins, etc. You name it - they can produce it via voices in the head and hallucinations and transmissions of frequencies that produce ecstatic states, healings, or whatever. And so it is that the human element of the Cosmic COINTELPRO operation manages their many "agents" of disinformation - pied pipers leading the masses of New Age seekers - so that whatever the real truth is remains their secret. And that's exactly the way they want it.

Notice the dates in the above quote from Dolan's book telling us that in the early 70s certain technologies were being developed that could "broadcast" signals over the entire nation. We certainly suspect that this technology was developed further in the subsequent years. The question is: what did they do with it? Better yet, what ARE they doing with it?

What strikes me as an essential turning point in this COINTELPRO operation was the beginning of the "expose" of two particular items that hold sway in certain "conspiracy" circles to this very day: Alien Abduction and Satanic Ritual Abuse.

The Gray alien scenario was "leaked" by Budd Hopkins. Whitley Strieber's alien abduction books, including Communion, followed a few years after. Prior to the publication of these books, the ubiquitous "Gray aliens" had never been seen before. In fact, a review of the history of "contact" cases show that the type and variety and behavior of "aliens" around the world are quite different across the board. But, along came Budd, followed by Whitley and his glaring alien on the cover, and suddenly the Grays were everywhere.

In respect of Whitley and his Grays, allow me to emphasize one of Dolan's comments quoted above: "By early 1969, teams within the CIA were running a number of bizarre experiments in mind control under the name Operation Often. In addition to the normal assortment of chemists, biologists, and conventional scientists, the operation employed psychics and experts in demonology." This, of course, brings us to the parallel event of that period of time: Satanic ritual abuse. SRA is the name given to the allegedly systematic abuse of children (and others) by Satanists.

As it happens, keeping our timeline in mind, it was in the mid to late 1970s that the allegations of the existence of a "well-organized intergenerational satanic cult whose members sexually molest, torture and murder children across the United States" began to emerge in America. There was a panic regarding SRA triggered by a fictional book called Michelle Remembers. The book was published as fact but has subsequently been shown by at least three independent investigators to be a hoax. No hard evidence of Satanic Ritual Abuse in North America has ever been found, just as no hard evidence of abductions by Gray aliens has ever been found. Nevertheless, the allegations were widely publicized on radio and television talk shows, including Geraldo Rivera's show.

Religious fundamentalists promoted the hysteria and, just as during the Inquisitions, endless self-proclaimed "moral entrepreneurs" both fed the fires of prosecution and earned a good living from it. Most of the early accusations of satanic ritual abuse were aimed at working-class people with limited resources, and with a few exceptions, the media and other groups that are ordinarily skeptical either remained silent or joined in the feeding frenzy of accusations. The few professionals who spoke out against the hysteria were systematically attacked and discredited by government agencies and private organizations.

The question has to be asked: If there are thousands of baseless accusations of SRA and thousands upon thousands of cases of unverifiable alien abductions, how do they originate?

Most of the SRA cases are said to originate with children. Since there is a widespread belief that children wouldn't make up stories of eating other children or being forced to have sex with giraffes after flying in an airplane while they were supposed to be in day care, the stories are often taken at face value by naive prosecutors, therapists, police officers and parents. Researchers have found that children are unlikely to invent stories of satanic ritual abuse on their own. So, where do the stories come from?

Accusing the therapists, district attorneys, police and parents of inducing such stories from children doesn't seem to be a very productive answer. Yes, it may happen in some cases, but certainly doesn't seem likely in the vast number of cases.

Now, let's go back and think about our timeline. As it happens, Michelle Remembers was published in 1980, co-written by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, M.D. Budd Hopkins finished Missing Time in December of 1980, with an "afterward" by Aphrodite Clamar, Ph.D.

It's looking pretty "coincidental" from where I sit.

What occurs to me - putting the pieces of the puzzle together - is that there is some general kind of imagery being widely broadcast in the "neutral cavity" described above, and that it depends a lot on the individual and their cultural programming how it "takes." When we consider the fact that Operation Often employed "the normal assortment of chemists, biologists, and conventional scientists" and "psychics and experts in demonology," we begin to think that electronic COINTELPRO includes a whole supermarket of new "beliefs" - Gray aliens and "alien contacts" for the New Age crowd and a whole range of "sexual/ritual abuse scenarios" for those who are not open to the alien shtick.

Is the whole thing beamed out as some sort of "free-formal imaging," and, based on the conscious acceptance of one or another version, it takes on its individual characteristics in the minds of the millions of recipients? In other words, is it picked up by the subconscious in alpha states or in sleep, perceived as traumatic in a general scenario that can then be interpreted by the individual belief systems in terms of either being examined and or sexually manipulated by aliens on a table or "raped on an altar" by Satanists? Are the public productions - books by Hopkins, Strieber, and the SRA scandals, just variations on the closing of the circuit by the conscious mind accepting or creating one or the other scenario as the explanation for the constant bombardment of such signals as described in Dolan's book? Is it the job of COINTELPRO to create "bogus organizations" that produce various "explanations" to close the circuit and "make it real" in the person's mind?

One has to wonder about the name of the program: Operation Often in terms of the claims of abductees - victims of repeated and "often" abductions - as well as the claims of those who suggest the SRA explanation. In either case, the believer is being "herded" into a "response camp" of either faith in alien saviors, or faith in Jesus to save them from the demonic/satanic Illuminati, Jews, Pagans - take your pick.

Let me make it clear that I am in no way suggesting that "abductions" or some whacked out satanic rituals do not ever take place somewhere, under some circumstances. What I am suggesting is that the Gray Alien and SRA phenomenon most certainly was not restricted in any way by COINTELPRO, and may indeed be the smoke and mirrors that hides a far more insidious state of affairs.

In essence, Dolan's book shows us the history of how the many levels of society have been duped and deceived - or directly controlled - from the average citizen, to the seeker of higher truths, to the scions of science and industry, to the hallowed halls of government. Each "type" has been targeted in the way most likely to "manage" them best. Those who cannot be "managed" generally die, as scientist James McDonald - and others - did. But all the while, the UFOs kept coming, and people kept seeing them, and they kept asking questions.

In April 1971, an engineering research magazine, Industrial Research, published the results of a poll in which 80 percent of its members rejected the Condon Report; 76 percent believed that the government was concealing UFO facts; 32 percent believed that UFOs were extraterrestrial. Poll or no poll, the CIA continued to lie about its UFO interests. [...]

The worst story of 1971 was the demise of James McDonald. [Atmospheric physicist from the University of Arizona.] As far as anyone could tell, McDonald was fine all through 1970 and into 1971. On March 2, 1971, he testified as an expert in atmospheric physics at the House committee on Appropriations regarding the supersonic transport (SST) and its potentially harmful atmospheric effects. McDonald's opponents questioned his credentials and ridiculed him as someone who believed in "little men flying around the sky." Laughter broke out several times.

Shortly after this incident, McDonald shot himself in the head and became blind. He was committed to the psychiatric ward of the VA medical Center in Tucson. In June, he signed himself out. On Sunday morning, June 13, a woman in south Tucson, identifying herself as a doctor, said a deranged blind man had taken a cab to the area. She wanted to know where the driver had dropped him off, and she made several calls. Meanwhile, a married couple and their children, walking along a shallow creek, found McDonald's body under a bridge at 11:40 a.m. A .38 caliber revolver was in the sand, near his head. A brief note attributed his suicide to marriage and family problems. [...]

We know that many intelligence agencies were skilled in "creating" suicides. But, one might ask, wasn't McDonald's mental condition already deteriorating? Jerome Clark stated that McDonald was ready to "crack" in the aftermath of the SST hearings. But what caused this? Embarrassment at the SST hearings? His marriage?

Perhaps, one supposes, but both of these explanations feel flimsy. Without exception, those who knew McDonald described him as possessing great integrity and courage. Was he really the type of person to commit suicide?
McDonald had been described as a man who was "afraid of nothing." What seems to be so is that this was why he was destroyed. Hynek had written that McDonald was considered by the Air Force to be an "outstanding nuisance."
With the mind control arsenal that has been described at their disposal, we have a good idea of what "they" can do to the mind. Even the strongest. Courage and integrity, it seems, are no protection. We would like to note another curious death - that of Edward Ruppelt. After years as an advocate of disclosure, he suddenly did an about face - re-wrote his book recanting his belief that UFOs were extraterrestrial craft, and was dead within a year at a very young age.

It looks to me as though, if they can't corrupt you, they kill you, and if they can corrupt you, they still kill you so you won't have a chance to change your mind and recant your recantation like Jacques de Molay did when the Templars were destroyed. Those who get close to the belly of the beast are generally subjected to a new "approach" it seems. And that approach is the biggest betrayal of all.

Many important and influential people have attested to the reality of the UFO phenomenon as an "alien reality." Within the military organizations, those who affirm the "alien hypothesis" are widespread and numerous. But, as Dolan shows us, they cannot discuss those views without risking the penalties of imprisonment and stiff fines.
In the present day, we have Steven Greer's "Disclosure Project." Based on the mail I get, it seems that many in the New Age/UFO community think that this is a great and novel idea. However, history shows that it has been tried before. The one thing about Greer's effort that suggests it is just more and better COINTELPRO is his attachment to the "aliens are here to help us" idea which is directly contradicted by history, though widely promoted by most "contactees." Even Linda Howe, for a long time the most reputable of careful researchers - and no stranger to the machinations of the Secret State - seems to have fallen for this one - or COINTELPRO. It is also now being promoted in Fate Magazine by Rosemary Guiley, who has the odor of COINTELPRO about her with her notable connections to military "agents." Jerome Clark, quoted above, is also a regular contributor to Fate.
Let me make it clear at this point that I am convinced that a lot of honest, sincere, hard-working individuals are being duped and/or controlled without being fully aware of it.

Dolan documents the failure of civilian groups in their efforts to really "end UFO secrecy." NICAP had prominent and active members, connections to Congress and the military, and their effort continued for over ten years. NICAP fought diligently for congressional hearings, and yet every time they got "close" to bringing it to the table for public consideration, the congressional sponsorship "backed off" and reversed their support.

What kind of group is it that can control our government officials in this way? An even deeper question might be: What kind of group is it that can control the media, the military, the CIA, the FBI, NSA, and even the President? What do they do to intimidate and dominate ethical and substantial persons in positions of authority? Whatever it is, we would certainly like to know because it suggests that they are hiding something so significant that even hints of it behind closed doors can send the most powerful congressmen running with their tails tucked between their legs.

This brings us back to the problem of the Secret State and its agenda. Some people believe that this secrecy is absolutely essential. They say that the public simply could not handle the truth about aliens. They say that there is no reason to spoil people's lives with the truth because there is nothing that the average person could do about it anyway. Is that really true? Would there be so much effort to conceal the alien agenda if disclosure of the truth wasn't harmful to that agenda?

Dolan's chronological history of the actual interaction between UFOs and the public and the corresponding behavior of the military, the intelligence community, the media, the scientific community in its interaction with the public, make this abundantly clear. Dolan writes:

Some believe this is, as it ought to be. Can the public really handle the truth about aliens? If the presence of others constitutes a threat to humanity, for example, what could the average person even do about it? There are those who believe that secrecy about UFOs is in the public's best interest.
What is clearly evident, and most especially so in the past year or two, is that the "public interest" is not the concern of those making these decisions. As Dolan rightly says, secrecy is being utilized not to protect the public, but to protect those keeping the secrets - the "Above Top Secret" group - and very likely even the aliens themselves.

When we consider the modus operandi of the intelligence community, in its historical perspective, what we see is that, at every level, right up to the very top, there is control and manipulation. This leads me to suggest that even those at the top level of the human Consortium are being duped and deceived and are as unable and/or unwilling to consider that possibility as those at the lower levels.

It seems obvious from the documentary evidence as well as the behavior of the military in response to UFOs and the "alien matter," that the aliens do have an agenda, and that - at some level in the layers of secrecy - there are those who know - at least on a "need to know" basis - what that agenda is. It seems abundantly evident that the secrecy has been enjoined on this group by the aliens themselves. What is more, a careful assessment of the evidence does not suggest a benevolent agenda.
Now, taking all of this into consideration, and considering Lilly's inability to interact with people who are truly trying to get to the bottom of the subject without hysteria, it strikes me rather forcibly that Lilly is behaving exactly like a programmed Fundie Hysteria Bot. This is a phenomenon that I am not unfamiliar with.
 
ATS

Can you typecast other internet-projected personalities like "programmed Fundie Hysteria Bot"?

Is there a convenient set of acronyms and a glossary available?

;)
 
ATS

MaskedAvatar said:
Can you typecast other internet-projected personalities like "programmed Fundie Hysteria Bot"? Is there a convenient set of acronyms and a glossary available?
LOL! I wish! In this particular case, having dealt with quite a few fundie types, it is obvious. There is a particular way they speak and act that is mostly due to religious programming. They are taught that if anybody says anything that might SEEM to be logical or reasonable, if anyone appeals to their thinking, that they must immediately be on guard against it because it is Satanic. Only Satan appeals to logic and reason and wanting facts. It's like the whole creationism thing: if there seems to be proof of evolution, it's only there because God created it to "test the faith" of the believer.

So, any attempts to use logic, reason, the MIND (which, I should add, God gave us to USE!), triggers a sort of "I've got to hold onto my faith and just repeat my mantra over and over again" etc. There is a palpable terror involved with this and when you see it in action, it is just like a thought loop. No matter what you say, the loop continues around and around and around.

It's also very similar to the alien "experiencer" loop. No matter what you say to the "abductee/experiencer," no matter how you point out to him that his "experience" does not seem to have been very friendly, he will cling desperately to the "I'm special and nobody knows about my experience but me, so anyone who suggests that it might be negative must NOT be listened to... they are only trying to take the value of my experience away from me... and the value is that, no matter how much pain or fear I suffered, the aliens only do this for our good, and they are here to save us..."

I wrote about this in The Wave:

One individual suggested that we should be able to separate the reliable sources from disinformation because the latter would be given out by people who had apparent "ego issues," or that they were clearly out "for money."

I would like to suggest just the opposite would be true in the most "hard core" cases. Yes, we have a LOT of folks out there who are stuck in their egos, whose egos are being manipulated to send them out to proclaim this or that teaching involving a hierarchy in which they, naturally, have a very "high" position. Those people who are "in it for the money and the glory" are easy enough to spot if you look close enough. Even Sai Baba has fallen from grace because many people have become aware of the clever shell game of manipulations he has been playing all these years.

But it is the others - the "perfectly programmed" individuals that will be the discerned with only great difficulty. And, the problem we face is the following: they really BELIEVE in what they are saying or doing! They are dedicated and driven to "preach" or convert or suffer and sacrifice for the sake of their message!

Consider the "Unification Church," and its adherents often known colloquially as "Moonies," as an example. Consider the sacrifice and suffering of these people, begging on street corners, witnessing in airports and parks, accosting strangers with their message. Think of the many recent "inside stories" about the ways and means of their "conversions." Think of the fact that they have all more or less given up a "normal life," they have given all they own to their church. They have suffered hunger, cold, sleep deprivation, and so on for the sake of this belief system. They are truly sincere and dedicated. They have no ego at all! Could that be another clue?

Are they programmed in the same way we have been talking about? Are techniques such as the Greenbaum method being used here? The fact is, it isn't even necessary. One good "Master Programmer" can do a lot with an ignorant person.. How do people become "softened up" and "marinated" to be programmed in a more general way by these "Master Programmers?" [...]

Referring back to our little historical discussion above, can we possibly think that all of the "human potential" movement activity was deliberately designed to prepare the meat for roasting, so to speak?

Just exactly how this is done in a more or less "ordinary way," by which I exclude any idea of aliens or secret government projects being involved, follows the same general line as "religious programming" as takes place in churches and evangelist's tents across the country. An interesting series of remarks were made about it by Marjoe Gortner, former Evangelist, in an interview with Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman in their book Snapping:

"As the preacher, I'm working with the crowd, watching the crowd, trying to bring them to that high point at a certain time in the evening. I let everything build up to that moment when they're all in ecstasy. The crowd builds up and you have to watch that you don't stop it. You start off saying you've heard that tonight's going to be a great night; then you begin the whole pitch and keep it rolling."

For Marjoe, who had seen it a million times, the divine moment of religious ecstasy had no mystical quality at all. It was a simple matter of group frenzy that had its counterpart in every crowd.

"It's the same as a rock-and-roll concert. You have an opening number with a strong entrance; then you go through a lot of the old standards, building up to your hit song at the end."

The hit song, however, was spiritual rebirth, the product of a time-tested recipe for evangelical religion to which the preacher and every member of the audience contribute some small but active ingredient. Afterwards, according to Marjoe, the only fitting encore to the overwhelming moment of being saved is a personal demonstration of the power of that newfound faith. This is the motivating factor that prompts speaking in tongues, also known as the 'receiving of the holy ghost.' As Marjoe explained it, this well-known evangelical tradition required even greater participation on the part of the tongues recipient and the entire audience.

"After you've been saved," Marjoe continued, "the next step is what they call 'the infilling of the Holy Spirit.' They say to the new convert, 'Well, now you're saved, but you've got to get the Holy Ghost.' So you come back to get the tongues experience. Some people will get it the same night; others will go for weeks or years before they can speak in tongues. You hear it, you hear everyone at night talking in it in the church, and they're all saying, 'We love you and we hope you're going to get it by tonight.' Then one night you go down there and they all try to get you to get it, and you go into very much of a trance - not quite a frenzy, but it is an incredible experience.

"During that moment the person forgets all about his problems. He is surrounded by people whom he trusts and they're all saying, 'We love you. It's okay. You're accepted in Christ. We're with you, let it go, relax.' And sooner or later, he starts to speak it out and go dut-dut-dut. Then everyone goes, 'That's it! You've got it!' and the button is pushed and he will in fact start to speak in tongues and just take off: dhandayelomosatayleesaso... and on and on."

Marjoe paused. We were dumbfounded by his demonstration, although he hadn't gone into the jerking, trancelike ecstasy that is commonly associated with the tongues moment. ...Yet even in this restrained demonstration, he seemed almost uncannily to be triggering some innate releasing or babbling mechanism. We asked him how he brought it about.

"You'll never get it with that attitude," he joked. Then he went on to explain the true nature of the experience.

"Tongues is something you learn, " he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church and the Bible - if you accept it literally - that the Holy Ghost spake in another tongue; and you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and the next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's elahandosatelayeekcondelemosandreyaseya... and it's a new languae you've got down."

Except that, according to Marjoe, it's not a real language at all. Contrary to most religious understanding, speaking in tongues is by no means passive spiritual possession. It must be actively acquired and practiced. Although the "gift" of tongues is a product of human and not supernatural origin, Marjoe displayed tremendous respect for the experience as an expression of spirituality and fellowship.

"I really don't put it down," he said. "I never have. It's just that I analyze it and look at it from a very rational point of view. I don't see it as coming from God and say that at a certain point the Holy Spirit zaps you with a super whammy on the head and you've 'gone for tongues' and there it is. Tongues is a process that people build up to. Then, as you start to do something, just as when you practice the scales on the piano, you get better at it."

During his years on the Bible Belt circuit, Marjoe came to see the evangelical experience as a form of popular entertainment, a kind of participatory divine theater that provided its audiences with profound emotional rewards.

"The people out there don't see it as entertainment," he confessed, "although that is in fact the way it is. Those people don't go to movies, they don't go to bars and drink, they don't go to rock-and-roll concerts - but everyone has to have an emotional release. So they go to revivals and they dance around and talk in tongues. It's socially approved and that is their escape.

"It was my duty to give them the best show possible," he said. "Say you've got a timid little preacher in North Carolina or somewhere. He'll bring in visiting evangelists to keep his church going. We'd come in and hit the crowd up and we were superstars. It's the charisma of the evangelist that the audience believes in and comes to see.

"When I was traveling, I'd see someone who wanted to get saved in one of my meetings, and he was so open and bubbly in his desire to get the Holy Ghost. It was wonderful and very fresh. But four years later I'd return and that person might be a hard-nosed intolerant Christian because he was better than anyone who drinks and better than the world because he had Christ. That's when the danger comes in. People want an experience. They want to feel good and their lives can be helped by it. But then as you start moving into the operation of the thing, you get into controlling people and power and money.

"Moon's [Unification Church] is doing the same thing I do, only he's taken it one step further. He's suggesting to people that he IS the Messiah. In my religion, the old-time religion, it's total blasphemy to suggest that. Moon has gone too far, but that's a very heavy number on people, because everyone wants to meet a Messiah."

Marjoe was quick to point out that Moon' preaching powers, like his own, were by no means divine or even innate. Marjoe acknowledged that his power over an audience derived primarily from the skills he perfected as a child, techniques of rhetoric and public speaking that have passed down from the Greeks.

"It's the same whether you're a preacher, a lawyer or a salesman," he told us. "You start off with a person's thought processes and then gradually sway him around to another way of thinking in a very short time."

Many of the techniques he commanded were simple and age-old, but so effective that they proved equally powerful even when an audience had been explicitly forewarned of their use. Toward the end of our conversation, Marjoe told us a story that revealed the fineness of his skills. In contrast to the massive physical experiences, intense group rituals and intimate personal crises that [are popular in the New Age crowd], Marjoe demonstrated how words alone, artfully manipulated, may be used to influence groups and individuals, even to the point of evoking the overwhelming emotional response of being "saved."

"I lecture in about twenty colleges a year," he began, "and I do a faith-healing demonstration - but I always make them ask for it. I tell them that I don't believe in it, that I use a lot of tricks; and the title of the lecture is 'Rhetoric and Charisma,' so I've already told them how large masses are manipulated by a charismatic figure. I've given them the whole rap explaining how it's done, but they still want to see it. So I throw it all right back at them. I say, 'No, you don't really want to see it.' And they say, 'Oh, yes. We do. We do!' And I say, 'But you don't believe in it anyway, so I can't do it.' And they say, 'We believe. We believe!' So after about twenty minutes of this I ask for a volunteer, and I have a girl come up and I say, 'So you want to feel better?' And I say 'You're lying to me! You're just up here for a good time and you want to impress all these people and you want to make an ass out of me and an ass out of this whole thing, so why don't you go back and sit down?' I really get hard on her, and she says, 'No, no, I believe!' And I keep going back and forth until she's almost in tears. And then, even though this is in a college crowd and I'm only doing it as a joke, I just say my same old line, In the name of Jesus! and touch her on the head, and WHAM! they fall down flat every time! [Snapping, Conway and Siegelman, 1978]
So the programming begins. During the early contacts, a potential convert can be manipulated with absolute precision by the rhetorical ploys described by Marjoe. Conversations using similar Neuro Linguistic Programming techniques also build rapport, as does the use of confrontation and direct emotional assault.

Once the individual has been drawn into the teaching, they are bombarded with ideas and doctrines that they cannot fit together while at the same time being led through ceremonies or rituals that induce intense emotional highs and peak experiences.

They are then subjected to more personal encounters in which these experiences are given the prescribed interpretation that is being inculcated. During this period, they are usually involved in intensive repetitive things, which can be as simple as the "order of worship" in an ordinary church. There can be orders to "stand up, sit down, kneel, pray, sing, stand up, sit down, sing, pray" and so on. More intense formats include chanting and meditation that can induce physical and psychic highs. The end result is, of course, that all of this STOPS THE MIND! And when that happens, the individual is completely open to suggestion and command.

The convert is instructed at this time to "refrain from doubt," and "do not question the wisdom of the teaching." The oldest version of this mind program is, of course, what we consider to be the standard religious teachings. But we can certainly see from all of the above that they are as much mind control as any New Age teaching or so-called cult. As a matter of fact, the key to being a Christian is "the surrender of the intellect, the emotions, and the will." To whom? Well, it's said that it is to the "One, True God." But would the "One True God" really forbid doubt and questioning if there was no doubt or question that he WAS the "One, True God?"

In the end, however, the result of all of these programs is the same: under the cumulative pressures of whatever specific mode of programming is employed, the individual's will gives way and they slide into a state of mind in which they literally are no longer capable of thinking for themselves.

This type of comprehensive assault strikes at the very heart of consciousness by undermining the processes of thinking and reflection that are crucial to individual awareness and Free Will.

Yet, the converts and adherents of religions and cults or many "new age teachings," have a different name for what is happening to them: HAPPINESS! They have found PEACE! In the labor for the cult, they are in a daily state of spiritual high, an emotional peak experience that never ends! And, if it does falter for just a moment or two, the leaders and associates work quickly to bolster the high - to get them back down to the church for another infusion! And they go because then they can return to the state of bliss that is their reward or unquestioning devotion.

Successful self-help therapy, religious or New Age philosophy graduates often achieve a sustained state of euphoria. Their problems are solved because - well, because they HAVE no problems! They have stopped worrying about the things that were bothering them. They no longer strive to change and grow and learn and do and accomplish. They are content in their condition of a shutoff mind, their state of not thinking.

Conway and Siegelman ask:

What kind of cultural environment breeds this widespread need to shut off the mind? It could be argued that the need is universal, that everyone -from Athenians to Sufis to voodoo tribesmen to modern Americans - must have some periodic release from the ordeal of being human. In that sense, the rituals and techniques which throughout history have been used to create peak experiences and moments of enlightenment may be looked on as vital sources of rest and relaxation for the mind, momentary breathing spells that hold great powers of insight, healing and renewal.

But what value can there be in engineering these experiences to shut down the workings of the mind altogether, to persistently stunt the processes of thought and leave people numb to their own feelings and the world around them? Throughout history, this systematic stilling of human awareness has proved an efficient method of controlling members of tribes, societies and whole nations in which little value is placed upon individuality. The state of mind it produces has a tradition that dates back to the dawn of civilization.

In the remote bush country of Australia, aboriginal tribes still engage in rituals perfected more than 16,000 years ago to induce a state of mind in their adolescents that is surprisingly similar to the plight of many of society's brightest youth today and people of all ages.

In recent years, aboriginal Dream Time has been hailed as a state of profound sophistication in human awareness. Anthropologists point to the aborigine's physical endurance, spiritual satisfaction and telepathic powers as marks of advanced evolution in a tribe that may represent humankind's longest unbroken line of cultural development. However, they make the error of implying that this efficient and admittedly remarkable form of social control in a primitive, unchanging environment holds some promise for the future of our vastly more complex and fast-changing technological society. [Conway and Siegelman, 1978]
We need to make careful note that this mode of consciousness exists for the very purpose of keeping the aborigine PRIMITIVE and UNCHANGING! It's no surprise that they still live as they did many thousands of years ago. That should give us pause!

In all the world, there is nothing quite so impenetrable as a human mind snapped shut with bliss. No call to reason, no emotional appeal can get through its armor of self-proclaimed joy. [Ibid.]
It doesn't matter who it is, whether it is a graduate of some group therapy, a born-again Christian, a meditator, or the follower of this week's channel o'choice. If you ask a question, the individual will spin around and around in circles of nonsensical beliefs and dogma. If you interrupt and re-ask your question, they simply start right where they left off, or go back to the beginning and start over again.

Such people are not just simply incapable of carrying on a conversation, they are completely programmed. And they don't have to be hauled in by aliens or Dr. Greenbaum to get that way.

Even though they were not talking about the kinds of programming we have been discussing, some of the work of Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman in their book Snapping is applicable to the present problem. They ask:

How do you reach such people? Can they be made to think and feel again? Is there any way to reunite them with their former personalities and the world around them?

A man named Ted Patrick developed the first remedy. A controversial figure dubbed by the cult world Black Lightning, Patrick was the first to point out publicly what the cults were doing to America's youth. He investigated the ploys by which many converts were ensnared and delved into the methods many cults used to manipulate the mind.

...In unsuccessful attempts to free cult members from their invisible prisons, Patrick was repeatedly thrown into real ones. ...In July 1976, ...Patrick was sentenced to serve a year in prison for a cult kidnapping he did not in fact perform. ...Early in 1977, we first visited Ted Patrick in the Theo Lacy Facility of the Orange County Jail to learn about deprogramming from the man who coined the term.

"The cults completely destroy the mind," he said without qualification. "They destroy your ability to question things, and in destroying your ability to think, they also destroy your ability to feel. ...They have the ability to come up to you and talk about anything they feel you're interested in. Their technique is to get your attention, then your trust. The minute they get your trust, just like that they can put you in the cult."

It was the classic sales pitch, carried off so smoothly that it amounted to what Patrick called "on-the-spot hypnosis."

It was in 1971 that Patrick infiltrated the Children of God... In his brief encounter with the Children of God, though he was alert to the cult's tactics, Patrick found that he was not immune to their effects.

"You can feel it coming on," he explained. ..."Thinking, to a cult member is like being stabbed in the heart with a dagger. ... It's very painful because they've been told that the mind is Satan and thinking is the machinery of the Devil. ...When you deprogram people, you FORCE them to think. The only thing I do is shoot them challenging questions. I hit them with things that they haven't been programmed to respond to. I know what the cults do and how they do it, so I shoot them the right questions; and they get frustrated when they can't answer. They think they have the answer, they've been given answers to everything. But I keep them off balance and this forces them to begin questioning, to open their minds. When the mind gets to a certain point, they can see through all the lies that they've been programmed to believe. They realize that they've been duped and they come out of it. Their minds start working again."

That, according to Patrick, was all there was to deprogramming. Yet since Patrick began deprogramming cult members, both the man and his procedure had taken on monstrous proportions in the public eye. ...Cult members had been warned that Black Lightning was an agent of Satan who would subject them to unimaginable tortures to get them to renounce their beliefs. ...No ex-cult member, parent or other reliable witness we talked to ever substantiated any of those charges. In truth, Patrick told us, and others later confirmed, many of the distortions that had been disseminated about the deprogramming were part of a coordinated campaign by several cults to discredit his methods. In the end, he said, the propaganda only worked to his advantage.

"The cults tell them that I rape the women and beat them. They say I lock them in closets and stuff bones down their throats." Patrick laughed. "What they don't know is that they're making my job easier. They come in here frightened to death of me, and then, because of all the stuff they've been told, I can just sit there and look at them and I'll deprogram them just like that. They'll be thinking, What the hell is he going to do now? They're waiting for me to slap them or beat them and already their minds are working."

In the beginning, Patrick admitted, he developed his method by trial and error, attempting to reason with cult members and learning each cult's rituals and beliefs until he cracked the code. Refining his procedure with each case, he came to understand exactly what was needed to pierce the cult's mental shield. Like a diamond cutter he probed with his questions the rough surface of speech and behavior until he found the key point of contention at the center of each cult member's encapsulated beliefs. Once he found that point, Patrick hit it head on, until the entire programmed state of mind gave way, revealing the cult member's original identity and true personality that had become trapped inside.

"The first time I lay eyes on a person," he said, "I can tell if his mind is working or not. Then, as I begin to question him, I can determine exactly how he has been programmed. From then on, it's all a matter of language. It's talking and knowing what to talk about. I start challenging every statement the person makes. I start moving his mind, slowly, pushing it with questions, and I watch every move that mind makes. I know everything it is going to do, and when I hit on that one certain point that strikes home, I push it. I stay with that question - whether it's about God, the Devil or that person's having rejected his parents. I keep pushing and pushing. I don't let him get around it with the lies he's been told. Then there'll be a minute, a second, when the mind snaps, when the person realizes he's been lied to by the cult and he just snaps out of it. It's like turning on the light in a dark room. They're in an almost unconscious state of mind, and then I switch the mind from unconsciousness to consciousness, and it snaps, just like that."

It was Patrick's term for what happens in deprogramming. And in almost every case, according to Patrick, it came about just that suddenly. When deprogramming has been accomplished, the cult member's appearance undergoes a sharp, drastic change. He comes out of his trancelike state and his ability to think for himself is restored.

"It's like seeing a person change from a werewolf into a man. It's a beautiful thing."

Snapping is a phenomenon that appears to have extreme moments at both ends. A moment of sudden, intense change may occur when a person enters a cult, during lectures, rituals and physical ordeals. Another change may take place with equal, or ever greater, abruptness when the subject is deprogrammed and made to think again. Once this breakthrough is achieved, however, the person is not just "snapped out" and home free. Deprogramming always requires a period of rehabilitation to counteract an interim condition Patrick called "floating."

"Deprogramming is like taking a car out of the garage that hasn't been driven for a year," he said. "The battery has gone down, and in order to start it up you've got to put jumper cables on it. It will start up then, but if you turn the key off right away it will go dead again. So you keep the motor running until it builds up its own power. This is what rehabilitation is. Once we get the mind working, we keep it working long enough so that the person gets in the habit of thinking and making decisions again."

"...The grave questions Patrick first flamboyantly brought to public attention are not ones we can choose to like or dislike - nor will they simply go away if we ignore them. Is an individual free to give up his freedom of thought? May a religion, popular therapy, political movement or any other enterprise systematically attack human thought and feeling in the name of God, the pursuit of happiness, personal growths or spiritual fulfillment? These are questions that Americans, perhaps more than others, are not prepared to deal with, because they challenge long-standing constitutional principles and cultural assumptions about the nature of the mind, personality and human freedom itself. ...In a statement more prescient at the time than either of us knew, Patrick became somber, concerned over what he saw as the public's growing apathy in the face of the cult world's increasing wealth, power and social legitimacy.

"The cult movement is the greatest threat and danger to this country that we have ever had. But the people won't wake up, the government, Congress, the Justice Department won't wake up until something bad happens." [Ibid.]
Now, of course, part of the problem here is: does Ted Patrick, or anyone, have the right to disabuse another person of their chosen beliefs? If you "deprogram" someone, have you "fixed" that thing inside them that makes them want a "belief system?" It seems to me to be far better to just leave the person alone unless they are a danger to themselves or others, and let them wear the "belief clothes" until they don't fit anymore.

In true psychopathic style, the minute any kind of thing comes along that a psychopath can use, the deviants worm their way inside and corrupt it, and so was the "anti-cult" idea taken over. People like Rick Ross came along and saw that this was a great vehicle to fame and glory and most especially to gain power over others. Then, the "cult label" underwent some strange manipulations and has now come to mean something altogether different than it did, say 50 years ago. According to the current definition, "cult" accurately describes a follower of any religion at all. Using this word like a weapon is a favorite tactic of psychopaths. When we refused to be taken over by a gang with intentions of using our work to start a cult (obviously, with themselves as leaders - I was just gonna be their tool and ticket to fame and glory), the cult accusations went flying and the truth is we have had a heck of a time overcoming that defamation.

The important thing about the above described "deprogramming process" is that it is a down-to-earth example of what the Cassiopaeans talk about when they say over and over again: Knowledge Protects. Ignorance Endangers. It also exemplifies in a very dramatic way, the process by which the Cassiopaeans communicate! They are deprogramming us! But they can only deprogram someone who is ready, someone who has worn the costume of belief so long that it no longer fits, or is in tatters.

Over and over again I receive letters from people who want to know WHY the Cassiopaeans won't just answer every question and give them all the "inside scoop" on the nature of the universe.

Well, at this point, we have a pretty good idea that all the "sources" that do exactly that may have an agenda that is not necessarily inclusive of our Free Will! Yes, they may give truth about the cosmos and describe for us the many planes and realities and "laws" and so on and so forth. But, it seems that many of them have done so in such a way as to not only obscure the real things we need to be applying ourselves to here at OUR level, but in ways designed to actually keep us at this level! What good does it do us to know that, at 7th density, all IS ONE, when the lesson of THIS density is to CHOOSE one or the other? It is rather like teaching a child the theory of flying a jet plane when, in actual fact, that child has no access to a jet, and even if he did, would not fit the seat, could not reach the controls, and would have no practical experience to guide him even if he could overcome those difficulties, so that at the first sign of any variable, he would end up in a fiery heap at the end of the runway.

Remember this from Stalking?

The negative guys, on the other hand, play the game in terms of domination, subjugation and absorption of other consciousnesses. But, they too, understand that the rules of the game posit that in order for them to truly "absorb" into their being these other "consciousnesses," that the "other" must choose to become part of their "self-aggrandizement." An unwilling "food" is, in essence, not "nutritious" so to say. If the consciousness does not choose, it becomes a "poison" to the consciousness that seeks to "eat it."
Note the key term: CHOOSE. In some way or manner the individual must be induced to CHOOSE to become part of their "food."

How are you going to make somebody choose to be your food?

Well, clearly, it is not going to happen by saying: "Hey! Ya wanna BE lunch?"

Nope. Won't work. If it were that obvious, clearly they would starve to death there at 4th density STS HQ!

So, what to do? Well, the first step in the grand deception began many thousands of years ago with what we today call our "standard religions." It was fairly easy, at that time, to bring people under subjection via these myths and dramas, to induce servitude to the "one True God," and other similar nonsense. One of the main clues that these religions are indeed cults, is the fact that it has been forbidden for almost two thousand years to even QUESTION the dogmas of the various "faiths." In fact, tens of thousands of people who DID ask a few reasonable questions were burned at the stake! Now, I ask you: Is TRUTH so fragile a thing that it must be protected against honest doubt? If it is truth, all the questions in the world will only serve to establish that more securely.[...]

The most interesting thing to me about the Cassiopaeans Communication has been the exponential growth in my awareness, my life force, my ability to truly discern and navigate through dangers that previously would have (and did) devastated me physically, mentally and emotionally. And it seems that it is because they are, in effect, "deprogramming" our minds through their often frustrating interactions that challenge our minds, break down our illusions and delusions, and more than anything, make us THINK.

They are NOT here to present a whole new "cosmology" or system of religion or worship. They are here to help us break free of the programming we have been under for the past many thousands of years. Yes, sometimes what they say is shocking, uncomfortable, controversial, or just plain infuriating! I have been so upset with them on occasions that I refused to "talk" to them for weeks on end. One correspondent even said they were "arrogant." They have been called "cold and cruel" because they won't coddle anyone. Many people have thought "Oh! Goody! A new channelled source where I can go and get confirmation of my ideas or the teachings of so and so that I like so much!" and the Cassiopaeans will gently inform them that they need to get rid of their assumptions and open their minds. Of course, such people always think that they DO have open minds because they have escaped the "old time religion" and are now "on the right track" with Swami So-and-so, or Lord Sandyanda of the Galactic Federation (who was really Jesus Christ in another reality) or whatever.

So they drag all their assumptions and elaborate castles in the air to the session and, when they don't get the answers they want, they run back to the warmth and comfort of other sources that WILL give them the answer to every question they ask - even if the answer is later proves to be wrong or simply does not hold up to rational review or simple research. The most classic example of this is in the following exchange:

Q: (L) Any other questions? (RC) I'm not going to ask because they didn't really answer what I wanted to hear.
Go figure.

Let's just have one last look at what Mr. Patrick, "Black Lightning" had to say about deprogramming before we move on to the next, and final section on mind programming:

"Deprogramming is like taking a car out of the garage that hasn't been driven for a year. The battery has gone down, and in order to start it up you've got to put jumper cables on it. It will start up then, but if you turn the key off right away it will go dead again. So you keep the motor running until it builds up its own power. This is what rehabilitation is. Once we get the mind working, we keep it working long enough so that the person gets in the habit of thinking and making decisions again."
And that is, in essence, the purpose of the Cassiopaeans as they have stated over and over again. If you are looking for a new "prophet" or a new "system of belief," you might as well look elsewhere right now. Take the "blue pill" and be done with it!

Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than death. Thought is subversive, and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless to the well-tried wisdom of the ages. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid... Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.

But if thought is to become the possession of the many, and not the privilege of the few, we must have done with fear. It is fear that holds men back - fear that their cherished beliefs should prove delusions, fear lest the institutions by which they live should prove harmful, fear lest they themselves prove less worthy to the respect than they have supposed themselves to be. [Bertrand Russel, Education and the Good Life; 1926]
But, like I said above, we aren't in the business of "converting" people. We would like to help, if a person is really asking for help, but it is clear that TrueLilly is not asking for real help. She is demanding that everyone get behind HER version of things and if they don't, then, according to her, they are "Satanic." Any appeal to thought and reason is seen as a "temptation of Satan" and must be vigorously resisted, ignored, repulsed, and even "labeled" as what she believes it is: Satanic.

That's what psychopaths do to people: convince them to become willing food.
 
ATS

Laura said:
We would like to help, if a person is really asking for help, but it is clear that TrueLilly is not asking for real help. She is demanding that everyone get behind HER version of things and if they don't, then, according to her, they are "Satanic." Any appeal to thought and reason is seen as a "temptation of Satan" and must be vigorously resisted, ignored, repulsed, and even "labeled" as what she believes it is: Satanic.
What strikes me as an interesting coincidence is that although Dimitris and true-lilly come from completely different directions and motivations, it so happens that the demands are the same: drop the attempts at psychological understanding, and address the Cryptocratic factor.

Dimitri took a secular-intellectual approach of manipulation, and here we have raw emotion. It may seem something beyond the human factor may be scratched by people addressing Poneric issues. Maybe this kind of awareness interferes with certain types of "feeding". In fact, addressing the problem of evil in terms of Ponerology may be better than any talisman or exorcist's incantations. All I can say more is: What next?
 
ATS

EQ said:
What strikes me as an interesting coincidence is that although Dimitris and true-lilly come from completely different directions and motivations, it so happens that the demands are the same: drop the attempts at psychological understanding, and address the Cryptocratic factor. [...] It may seem something beyond the human factor may be scratched by people addressing Poneric issues. Maybe this kind of awareness interferes with certain types of "feeding". In fact, addressing the problem of evil in terms of Ponerology may be better than any talisman or exorcist's incantations.
Yes, the battle against knowledge has been waged for millennia. Reminds me of something the C's once said:

Q: (L) Do demons and evil spirits fear anything?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Do they fear any power that we, as humans, possess?
A: Yes. Knowledge.
Q: (L) Do they fear religious symbols, signs or figures?
A: No. ...

Q: (L) Were they afraid of Christ?
A: Yes. Because of his knowledge. The mass of his knowledge raised his vibrations. Knowledge is truly power.
...
Q: (L) Is the greatest power we have to resist demonic entities held in our free will: our power to say no?
A: No.
Q: (L) What is our greatest power?
A: Knowledge.
Q: (L) Does the accumulation of spiritual knowledge hold the key?
A: Yes.
This relates, of course, to "crystallization" of the self, as Gurdjieff referred to it, and "fusing the magnetic center" as Mouravieff describes it. It also reflects Castaneda's "Three Phase Progression" where learning to deal with "petty tyrants" is the key to exercising "spiritual muscle" so that one is capable of "facing the unknown" without flinching.

In Secret History I discuss this as follows:

When we choose what we SEE - and here we do NOT mean with the physical eyes or even psychically, but rather a more inclusive term that suggests whether or not we are capable of objectivity or subjectivity - we are receiving impressions. Impressions can become knowledge if assimilated. Knowledge leads to awareness. Knowledge and awareness then direct emotions, which then energize actions in the organic world. This is the transducing of energies of Cosmic Thought Centers.

Ibn al-'Arabi tells us that Goodness is Being; to which all positive and beautiful attributes or "names" of God belong. Evil is the lack of good, so it is "nonexistence." In other words, at the root, Being dwells in "non-existence" which is evil. Here is the sticking point, the item that is generally omitted from most "systems of ascension." Human beings at our level of reality exist at the crossroads of the Thoughts of Being and Non-being - Good and Evil. Mankind is made in the form of all the names of God - those of Being and Non-being. Assuming the traits of the Names is synonymous with manifesting their properties. The Science of Ascension is to obtain deep knowledge of all the Names and their true properties, the high and the low, the pleasant and the loathsome, the light and the darkness, in differentiated detail, so as to be able to CHOOSE which traits will be assumed. It is only with a full field of vision that a man can discover if what he subjectively thinks is good actually is good and leads to Being, or if it is a deception that induces to Non-being by pretense. [...]

And this brings us to what the Shaykh calls "perspicacity." This is the special development of the "eye of insight," or "seeing the unseen" that is crucial to the Seeker. Just as the physical eye, with the refraction of light from the Sun, can discern between the large and the small, the beautiful and the ugly, colors, the moving from the still, high and low, the ability to see the unseen is a property of an "inner light." This light reveals to the seeker things about external objects that are NOT apparent to the five senses. It reveals to its possessor when a choice that may appear to be benevolent, is a step on the path of Evil. It reveals when a choice that may appear to human estimation as negative is actually a difficult step to felicity for all involved. The Sufis tell us that some individuals have achieved such a level of "seeing" that - upon seeing a person's footprint on the ground, even if the person is not present - they are able to say whether he is following a life of felicity or wretchedness.

The light of perspicacity seems to be a gift that not everyone has, and those who do have it, may not have developed it to the same degree. What is evident is that those who have it possess an immutable nature of Being which is able to "see" good and evil - they do not see "only good." Thus, they are able to discern between the "calls" of Nonbeing and Being, and therefore, are able to strengthen their Will along the path of intrinsic Being. It then follows that individuals who are not able to see - or who choose not to see - both Good and Evil, are formed in the mold of subjectivity, which is the human expression of the Call of Non-being.
So, certainly, utilizing the mind as the tool it is, becomes crucial. I regularly point out to the Fundie types that this point is actually explicated in the Bible itself where it is said that the one thing that God gives liberally and ungrudgingly for those who understand that faith without works is dead is: Knowledge.

For that which is known about God, is evident to them [man] and made plain in their inner consciousness; because God has shown it to them. For ever since the creation of the world, His invisible nature and attributes have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made - His handiwork....

...And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing... [His invisible nature and attributes have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made - His handiwork.] O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another... for in posing as judge and passing sentence on another you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things that you censure and denounce...[Amplified, Zondervan]
As the writer of the book of James says:

Consider it wholly joyful, my brethren, whenever you are enveloped in or encounter trials of any sort, or fall into various temptations. Be assured and understand that the trial and proving of your faith bring out endurance and steadfastness and patience. But let endurance and steadfastness and patience have full play and do a thorough work, so that you may be perfectly and fully developed, lacking in nothing. If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of the giving God who gives to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him. Only it must be in faith that he asks, with no wavering - no hesitating, no doubting. ...What is the use for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no works? Can faith save? ...Faith if it does not have works, by itself is destitute of power - inoperative, dead. ...You see that a man is justified through what he does and not alone through faith - through works of obedience as well as by what he believes. [Amplified, Zondervan]
So, if you ask God for knowledge, and have faith, you will certainly be presented with opportunities to WORK for that knowledge. It clearly isn't going to be handed to you on a silver platter with no effort on your part.

Or so it seems to me.
 
ATS

anart said:
Hkoehli said:
And who is at the root of the problem? Have you honestly not read a word of the replies to your posts? I'm starting to wonder if you really are doing this out of compassion, or if it is not just your nature to tenaciously attack those you think are wrong.
It is painfully obvious at this point that true-lilly has either not read a word of the replies to her posts, (or a word of the background on Laura's work) or she has read these things and is simply incapable of understanding them. At this point, her posts have entered the realm of vengeful fantasy based on an interpretation that could not be farther from the truth. The most unfortunate aspect of this situation is her dismissal of ideas and techniques that would make a positive difference in her situation. We have nothing to offer anyone with ears so plugged and eyes so closed, and it is past time true-lilly moved along to places that hold information she may be more able to grasp. This quote really says it all:

truelilly said:
So, to sum up why I don't trust a thing about you and your "work"
Although this raises the question of why you are 'wasting your time and energy' here in the first place, at this point it simply accentuates the fact that it would be best to do yourself (and us) a favor and take your raging elsewhere.
Well, people who are hurt, used, vitimised and deceived are generally angry and in a place where they need to recover from their emotional disequilibrium and perhaps from a sense of powerlessness. They will lash out at anything or anyone who does not give them what they see as appropriate help. This can be a difficult thing to guage as everybody is in a different 'place' and may need something entirely different from what another person 'thinks' they need. Expecting a person in such a situation to be objective and appreciate 'help' is like trying to counsel the car crash victim whilst they are still in the car, or perhaps offering them the use of the 'jaws of life' and expecting them to use an operate the thing whilst they are in no position to do so.

I think people are expecting the wrong responses and (maybe) offering the wrong type of 'help' at this point in time. How much of this is a 'conditioned' response which leads into worse situation?
 
ATS

Ruth said:
Well, people who are hurt, used, vitimised and deceived are generally angry and in a place where they need to recover from their emotional disequilibrium and perhaps from a sense of powerlessness. They will lash out at anything or anyone who does not give them what they see as appropriate help. ... I think people are expecting the wrong responses and (maybe) offering the wrong type of 'help' at this point in time. How much of this is a 'conditioned' response which leads into worse situation?
We are aware of that, Ruth. That is why I suggested that TrueLily start a thread and talk about it, to tell us what she had to say. My experience has been that people who have been traumatized really want to tell someone about it.

But TrueLily didn't want to tell about it, all she wanted to do was cast blame, and do it in such a way that was not only inappropriate, but also harmful to what she said she wanted to accomplish.

An interesting thing I learned years ago from my pediatrician. I noticed that he would constantly ask the child questions during the exam. If he had to do something uncomfortable and the child started crying, he would ask all kinds of specific questions about it and I noticed that even if they were crying incoherently, they would stop crying as if by magic. So, I commented on this to the doctor. He told me that he learned a long time ago that a person can't cry and think at the same time and you have to think in order to tell about what happened to you. He also quickly learned that a child that couldn't or wouldn't stop crying to answer questions about what happened was generally making it up.

Now, there are some things that can happen to a person that are way outside the range of this little "test." Maybe something is so horrible that a person just can't get over it and stop crying. But the thing about that is, if it is that horrible that they can't emerge from the crying, shaking, incoherence, etc, then they also can't identify and blame anyone either. That level of trauma precludes anything other than striving to maintain coherence within. That level of trauma requires serious sedation and a period of time before any questions can be asked.

But then, again, when the questioning CAN begin, even if very gently and patiently, it is possible to keep pulling the person back to the subject at hand, to ask them questions, to give them information that helps them to understand what has happened to them which then helps them to resolve the trauma.

As a hypnotherapist, AND as a mother, I have worked with a LOT of traumatized individuals. TrueLily just doesn't present as a truly traumatized individual. She acts like a programmed individual.
 
ATS

Ruth said:
This can be a difficult thing to guage as everybody is in a different 'place' and may need something entirely different from what another person 'thinks' they need. Expecting a person in such a situation to be objective and appreciate 'help' is like trying to counsel the car crash victim whilst they are still in the car, or perhaps offering them the use of the 'jaws of life' and expecting them to use an operate the thing whilst they are in no position to do so.
Understood. And that is the point. As I see it, the insight and opportunities provided by forums such as this one is not a panacea. Networking of this nature can help people at a certain stage of growth, where either such deep traumas have been overcome enough to allow clear thinking or such traumas have not been endured. In the second case, it is my hope that insightful discussions can act as "preventative medicine" or at least assist in that direction.

It has been said that we never confront anything we can't handle. This is simply not true, or not always true. However, a certain awareness can allow us to move through life so we never confront anything we can't handle. This awareness cannot be implemented, however, at least not in the context of insightful discussion, when one still is in a state severe wounding.

So I do not think people are offering the wrong type of help. I believe what was said in this thread in response to tiger-lilly was simply a description of the scope of what this forum can provide, as well as not provide, surrounding the basic idea that this forum simply and unfortunately cannot be of any direct help in such cases.

And what was said was for the most part said in trying to understand this situation in coming to this conclusion. In such a case you're damned no matter what you say.

The thing is there are layers of degree and type of trauma in this world, and by addressing those layers that can be easily addressed, the top layers, deeper layers are brought to the light and the whole collective field undergoes a slight change, which can manifest as opportunities for these much more wounded people to find a thread back to a sense of wholeness, tenuous as that thread may seem at times.

By addressing any part of the whole, one indirectly addresses the whole and assists in that manner, although this may not be obvious by any means.
 
ATS

Cs said:
Q: (L) Do demons and evil spirits fear anything?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Do they fear any power that we, as humans, possess?
A: Yes. Knowledge.
Q: (L) Do they fear religious symbols, signs or figures?
A: No. ...

Q: (L) Were they afraid of Christ?
A: Yes. Because of his knowledge. The mass of his knowledge raised his vibrations. Knowledge is truly power.
...
Q: (L) Is the greatest power we have to resist demonic entities held in our free will: our power to say no?
A: No.
Q: (L) What is our greatest power?
A: Knowledge.
Q: (L) Does the accumulation of spiritual knowledge hold the key?
A: Yes.
I don't want to 'criticize' the Cs here - but in my personal opinion our greatest power is to choose knowledge! I think the crucial elements are (in this order):

1. Intent
2. To act upon that intent
3. As a result comes later the actual acquisition of the knowledge.

Once you gained a certain knowledge, you have it (not that you can ever have enough before you return to 7D), but what you acquired will not go away again.
But to maintain the intent and to continuously keep acting upon it, no matter what obstacles are thrown in your way by who or whatever, that in my mind is the hard part.

People that are capable to do just that are the truly powerful ones. OSIT.
 
ATS

Fifth Way said:
Once you gained a certain knowledge, you have it (not that you can ever have enough before you return to 7D), but what you acquired will not go away again.
Of course it can "go away". We know stories when people that were possesing certain knowledge have been "treated", and became essentially robots. Why? One of the reasons is that they did not have enough knowledge that would allow them to avoid the dangers.
Fifth Way said:
But to maintain the intent and to continuously keep acting upon it, no matter what obstacles are thrown in your way by who or whatever, that in my mind is the hard part.
The point is that you are not able to keep your intent without knowledge. Your intent, generally, will be influenced by all kind of external and internal noise and purposeful lies. You must first have knowldge how to keep and to use your intent (if some part of you wants to keep and to use it).
Fifth Way said:
People that are capable to do just that are the truly powerful ones. OSIT.
Not really. There are many people that have all the intent - but no knowledge. As they say:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions!
OSIT
 

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