Advice please re "critical" posting

[TheSpoon]

Ok Ana, I hear you.

This is an expression often used by men to dismiss women’s feeling-perception of them.

To dismiss them? That certainly wasn't my intention. The way I hear it used, it's more like "You win, what you say has validity, I give up."

Apologies, but you say she is correct, then say she dismissed what you wrote? That's rather contradictory.

Anart, I find your contribution useful and I know you're helping me to see what's really there so there's no need for you to apologise. I said what Ana wrote is correct in itself, it's just that I thought what I wrote had some validity too. Maybe she thought it was valid and maybe she didn't, but either way, I felt it was dismissed as being irrelevant. If she was correct to dismiss it, then I don't feel any less dismissed. What I would have liked to have heard (and I note the chasm here between reality and what I'd like reality to be) would have been "Spoon, you make points that are valid in themselves, but which are distracting away from the core issue here, which is your lack of external consideration towards Laura".

I'll work through it, maybe you (or Ana) can help me see something I'm missing:

Saying my intention is to "sow seeds of doubt" would be to suggest I was fully conscious of what I was doing, which is of course (given my posting history) highly unlikely.

And this smells like manipulation...
There is no need to be fully conscious to sow seeds of doubt, nor to inflict harm on others without feeling remorse.
A great example are psychopaths.

I have to say I was dismayed to hear you say that because I really tried to 'dig deep' with my posting to get to truth of what was going on with my reluctance to 'get with the program'. It would have been more helpful if you'd said what effect you thought my manipulation was intended to cause. Was it as per the quote above (to cause others to reflect back my self image), or did you think I had another aim in mind?

Is Looking for truth above taking into account others?
I don’t know what on your mind is, I just see your behaviour towards Laura which I think was totally lacking external considering.

So here I was objecting to / defending myself against what I saw as Ana saying I was being deliberate ie intentional about all of this. Which I can now see isn't the point. I need to take responsibility even (and perhaps even more so) for my behaviours which result from sub-conscious processes. I could also 'glimpse' the possibility that I might be being manipulative, but I wasn't able to see in what way that was happening.

I'd asked Ana in what way she thought I was trying to manipulate and she didn't try to answer the question. Which felt dismissive. It's not a question of what was on my mind, it was a question about why she said I was manipulating ie how was I manipulating, what effect was she detecting? But to answer her question, no I wasn't taking others into account while trying to find the truth - lack of external consideration, she's quite correct.

You brought here a topic wich has nothing to do with the initial one

Yes I did, the whole Darkness over Tibet and "is the spiritual life a fight" was part of my train of thought, but again yes, it was a lack of consideration to bring my train crashing into this thread. So yes Ana correct, but original train of thought dismissed as being off topic.

The Spoon, above I am not seeing someone asking but demanding.
I see someone throwing grenades, if you do realy have doubts on that subject seems to me there are many different ways of doing it respectfully and thoughtfully.

Ana is quite correct, I was demanding and failed to be either respectful or thoughtful.

The phrase goes "You always hurt the ones you love." it does not say "You always intend to hurt the ones you love".

I see a nonsense in this phrase.

Well I didn't think it was nonsense, it's quite true. It just may not be relevant. I can see that excusing myself on the grounds of subconscious drivers isn't going to fly here, and that objecting to Ana's word usage is spending my energy trying to get off (or have the blame mitigated) on a technicality, rather than addressing the criticism head on.

What was your intention in comparing my behaviour to that of a psychopath?

My intention was not to compare you with a psychopath but to point out the invalidity of your statement.

Well Ana did compare my behaviour to that of a psychopath, so that makes two of us doing things that we didn't consciously intend then. My statement about intent was not 'wrong' and it was not 'invalid'. But it was missing the point, a distraction and attempting to weasel my way out of something.

As far as 'nothing to be gained by continuing', does that mean that since you cannot prove yourself right in this instance that you're prefer to just 'drop it'?

Yes, this topic has been draining much of my energy for nearly a week now. It's keeping me awake at night and I'd rather be shot of it. The things that sprung to mind when I read Ana's response (at the time) were just more of the same. I would just be 'clarifying' my excuses further and being even more off-topic, not to mention wasting her time and causing myself to become more aggrieved at her if I continued. That said, I recognise that I have much to potentially gain here by continuing. I'm just not enjoying it in any way.

I mean no offense by that at all. It just appears from your posts in this thread that you have not reached a personal bankruptcy, on any level, and because of this you hold your own thoughts and perceptions above others.

That is quite correct, and I'm not close to taking offence at that. I think I can see something of "why I'm here" (ie on this planet) coming out of this past week in this thread. I think it's about time I learned some humility and empathy. But no, you're quite correct to diagnose that I've not reached a personally bankruptcy yet.

In short, The Spoon, it seems that you are basically unhappy with this forum because it does not reflect an image of yourself that makes you 'feel good' - an image that you believe in because you've not undergone a personal bankruptcy, as referred to by Gurdjieff. While such a state of affairs is not uncommon, it is unfortunate because of all the reasons that have been brought up to you in this thread. Your reply to Ana seems to indicate that you think there is nothing to gain by continuing. Hopefully that's not the case, though without a reassessment of your own condition, it might be unavoidable. As always, this is just for what it's worth and I could be mistaken.

It's worth a lot, and I don't think that you're mistaken. Let me just dig out that Mme de Salzmann quote....I mean, yes I see it, hazily. I lie to myself. I project out to the world what I want it to see. I can feel that other self flee when I lie. And when it's gone and I'm "in a train of thought", I'm somewhat lost to myself and grenades get thrown and even if I check myself "why am I doing this, what am I trying to achieve?", I get a justification back that appears valid. I'm just not really feeling or really seeing it.

Where do I go next?

 

[RedFox]

If you are starting to see it, then you have made enough space inside yourself for a change....you have liberated energy that can now be directed elsewhere.

Where do I go next?

Two biggies that most of us have taken up is the detox diet and the breathing program - have you given those a go?

Something that many people get encouraged to do on this forum is to read the entire thread before responding. My failure to 'get with the program' is the issue I introduced. So no, I have yet to take up either.

I'm glad you said to Nomad that you are going to try the breathing program, because even though you mention emotions in your posts the feel to them are all intellect and cold. IMHO you need to get the emotions flowing and exposed with the breathing program.

Thanks for the positive response Bear. Funny how it feels positive even thought you're calling me cold, perhaps because you glad about something I've said. Yes, I can see that I'm coming over as intellectual and cold. Intellect was valued above all in my family and "emotional intelligence" was an unknown virtue. It was only when I was doing some work on myself in my early 20s that I really learnt to feel emotions in my body, and I still have a tendency to block them out when I need to be reasonable (program!). I have experimented with 'not being reasonable' which means I'm not perceived as being cold, but like our Samurai isn't very controlled. I think emotional cleansing will be most helpful to me.

Have you listened to the intro audio part of the breathing program/practiced pipe/belly breathing yet? This would be an excellent place to go next. And as its a Thursday you will have the added weight of the group behind you when it comes to the breathing. If you practice over the next week you could even try doing the full breathing/meditation program this time next week! Hows that for DOing? :)
After doing the full breathing/meditation program for a few weeks, I had enough 'space' (liberated energy) inside myself to move onto changing my diet.

 

[ana]

Well, I am not talking to you to win nothing The Spoon, I am telling you what I see wich of course can be mistaken, and I am sorry to hear this subject is not letting you sleep well.

Now I see that yes it is true there is a comparisson in the statement I did, between your behaviour and the one of a psychopath:

My tranquillity is a defence mechanism that is somewhat positive in that I don't often 'react' at least in an overt way (which in this context could get me banned), but negative in that people often 'want' an emotional reaction from me that they don't receive. Some people push until they get one. But the emotions are still there, Ana, even if they're temporarily as inaccessible to myself as they are to others.

Saying my intention is to "sow seeds of doubt" would be to suggest I was fully conscious of what I was doing, which is of course (given my posting history) highly unlikely.

And this smells like manipulation...
There is no need to be fully conscious to sow seeds of doubt, nor to inflict harm on others without feeling remorse.
A great example are psychopaths.

Apologies for that.. :(

 

[TheSpoon]

Have you listened to the intro audio part of the breathing program/practiced pipe/belly breathing yet? This would be an excellent place to go next.

Thanks RedFox, yes I'll do that now.

 

[mada85]

Ok Ana, I hear you.

This is an expression often used by men to dismiss women’s feeling-perception of them.

To dismiss them? That certainly wasn't my intention. The way I hear it used, it's more like "You win, what you say has validity, I give up."

Thanks for correcting my impression. Reading your clarified meaning here, it reinforces an impression I receive from your posts, which is that you have been trying to protect your image of yourself. This does seem to be changing in your latest post. There’s a definite impression for me of some chinks appearing in your armour.

This jumped out at me from your post:

Yes, this topic has been draining much of my energy for nearly a week now. It's keeping me awake at night and I'd rather be shot of it.

I’m sorry you’re feeling drained by this topic. What you write here suggests to me that there is still some conscious inner work needing to be done, which will most probably involve some kind of disintegration. When you find a resolution you will have more energy, and not feel drained, osit.

Here’s a clue from Gurdjieff:

The energy spent on active inner work is then and there transformed into a fresh supply, but that spent on passive work is lost for ever.

You could try the breathing program, as RedFox suggests. You could try writing your thoughts in your journal, then replace every instance of I/me/mine with it/its. This exercise can bring some objectivity to the situation, and help you to see some of your programs. Are you familiar with the idea of calling our machine, or predator’s mind, ‘It’?

Although all this is painful for you, I think you’re moving towards bringing some light to your inner world, and I think you should stay with the process, consciously, to the best of your ability. Remember, it is always darkest before dawn. FWIW.

 

[henry]

Anart, I find your contribution useful and I know you're helping me to see what's really there so there's no need for you to apologise. I said what Ana wrote is correct in itself, it's just that I thought what I wrote had some validity too. Maybe she thought it was valid and maybe she didn't, but either way, I felt it was dismissed as being irrelevant. If she was correct to dismiss it, then I don't feel any less dismissed. What I would have liked to have heard (and I note the chasm here between reality and what I'd like reality to be) would have been "Spoon, you make points that are valid in themselves, but which are distracting away from the core issue here, which is your lack of external consideration towards Laura".

I'll work through it, maybe you (or Ana) can help me see something I'm missing:

...

So here I was objecting to / defending myself against what I saw as Ana saying I was being deliberate ie intentional about all of this. Which I can now see isn't the point. I need to take responsibility even (and perhaps even more so) for my behaviours which result from sub-conscious processes. I could also 'glimpse' the possibility that I might be being manipulative, but I wasn't able to see in what way that was happening.

I'd asked Ana in what way she thought I was trying to manipulate and she didn't try to answer the question. Which felt dismissive. It's not a question of what was on my mind, it was a question about why she said I was manipulating ie how was I manipulating, what effect was she detecting? But to answer her question, no I wasn't taking others into account while trying to find the truth - lack of external consideration, she's quite correct.

Ana is quite correct, I was demanding and failed to be either respectful or thoughtful....

Well I didn't think it was nonsense, it's quite true. It just may not be relevant. I can see that excusing myself on the grounds of subconscious drivers isn't going to fly here, and that objecting to Ana's word usage is spending my energy trying to get off (or have the blame mitigated) on a technicality, rather than addressing the criticism head on....

Well Ana did compare my behaviour to that of a psychopath, so that makes two of us doing things that we didn't consciously intend then. My statement about intent was not 'wrong' and it was not 'invalid'. But it was missing the point, a distraction and attempting to weasel my way out of something. ...

Yes, this topic has been draining much of my energy for nearly a week now. It's keeping me awake at night and I'd rather be shot of it. The things that sprung to mind when I read Ana's response (at the time) were just more of the same. I would just be 'clarifying' my excuses further and being even more off-topic, not to mention wasting her time and causing myself to become more aggrieved at her if I continued. That said, I recognise that I have much to potentially gain here by continuing. I'm just not enjoying it in any way....

That is quite correct, and I'm not close to taking offence at that. I think I can see something of "why I'm here" (ie on this planet) coming out of this past week in this thread. I think it's about time I learned some humility and empathy. But no, you're quite correct to diagnose that I've not reached a personally bankruptcy yet....

It's worth a lot, and I don't think that you're mistaken. Let me just dig out that Mme de Salzmann quote....I mean, yes I see it, hazily. I lie to myself. I project out to the world what I want it to see. I can feel that other self flee when I lie. And when it's gone and I'm "in a train of thought", I'm somewhat lost to myself and grenades get thrown and even if I check myself "why am I doing this, what am I trying to achieve?", I get a justification back that appears valid. I'm just not really feeling or really seeing it.

Where do I go next?

One thing that can happen when we receive a mirror is that we deflect it. The passages I have bolded are where I think you are deflecting. You are saying, "OK, that mirror is correct, BUT..." and then you focus on some point where you believe you are correct.

One of the hardest things for someone to really grasp when they get a mirror is that it doesn't matter if you were correct on some point or other. One maple tree doesn't change a pine forest into a maple forest. Focus on the overall image of yourself you are receiving. You are losing energy because you are struggling to justify this or that small point. Of course, they may not seem to you like small points, but, that is the POINT. The predator is really unhappy and uncomfortable and wants to hang on to some small piece to feed itself.

Also, the mirror isn't being given to Ana. It is addressed to you. To turn attention to Ana is another way to deflect what is being said to you.

The passages in red are where you seem to have a clue, but, unfortunately, as long as you continue to feed the predator by insisting that on this or that small point you were correct, you won't really understand and experience what you are writing.

"Addressing the criticism head on" means to sit with it. Tell yourself that it is 100% true because the overall image of The Spoon that is being given back to you is correct. That is what it means to take responsibility.

It isn't easy. It'll hurt like the dickens. But once you stop holding on for dear life to the predator's food, you'll be amazed as how much better you feel and how much more energy you'll have.

 

[Marcus-Aurelius]

Thanks Galahad, you wrote exactly what I was thinking but had some difficulties to put it in words :( (have still to work on traducing my thoughts into words).
In fact, I often have the same reaction in my daily work. When I see my performances, I tend to find excuses to justify why they were not good in this or that field, often blaming others. But when thinking on it further more objectively, I often discover that despite actions or omissions of other persons, I could have performed better by acting more responsibly.
And I think the point is there, objectivity. Try to see the situation logically, without identification. It is just like you remove yourself from the situation and look at it as an external observer or at least this is how it works with me.