All there is is lessons? It is FUN?

[whovian]

Being truly aware in this existence means not to say "I am human" or "I am American" or "I am happy" or "I am suffering," but simply to say "I am."

That could be deep. But in the context you've provided, it's about as deep as camel spittle in the Sahara. See Jerry's reply.

Whovian, please accept my apology for this post. It was quite rude of me, and unjustifiably so. In fact, I think I totally misread your reply (thinking you were replying to the responses given to Mario and not Mario's post), so if that's the case, not only was I out of line, it was ME who was out of context here.

Apology accepted. And yes I was responding directly to Mario's post.

One of the reasons I don't participate actively in many forums is because of this type of reaction (although it was just a misunderstanding - no big deal). I find there is always somebody bigger/badder/better/smarter and they want everyone to know it. Most people would say things on an internet forum that they would never dream of saying in person for whatever reason. I understand the psychopathy involved with such a venture, and the fact that you have many of them on this forum. You have to screen them and react appropriately. That includes getting to the crux and intention of their post(s). I will accept the fact that you were 'screening' me. :)

I came to this website/forum in search of answers to questions that have developed over the past few years within myself (haven't we all??). I originally became interested in crop circles, which led me to a link where the C's were discussing that very topic. After reading the entire online version of the 'Wave' , I began to see that my questions weren't really that important in the grand scheme of things. This has changed how I mentally approach all aspects of my life. When something negative happens to me, I now ask, "What am I supposed to learn from this?" This turns my situation from negative to necessity. It just 'is' because it was meant to be. That was the crux of my response to Mario.

May I make a humble suggestion? In some other forums, the moderators are essentially 'invisible,' meaning that they just monitor the boards. If the moderators here want to actively participate, why don't you do so under another pseudo-name? Wouldn't this reduce some of the psychopathy? I mean, how many people come here just to say that they interacted or debated or agreed publicly with Laura or one of her moderator friends? It helps many feed their hungry egos, especially when they can "one-up" somebody in a public forum.

And thank you, Laura, for your thoughtful response.

Here's to crop circle season 2011! And here's to 4th density! It couldn't come soon enough...........

Cheers,

Whovian

 

[Buddy]

I find there is always somebody bigger/badder/better/smarter and they want everyone to know it. Most people would say things on an internet forum that they would never dream of saying in person for whatever reason. I understand the psychopathy involved with such a venture, and the fact that you have many of them on this forum. You have to screen them and react appropriately. That includes getting to the crux and intention of their post(s).

Hi whovian. I have been thinking about what you said from the perspective of how some of my own posts might come across - to a newbie or even someone who's been around awhile.

As far as I know, it could be me that comes across as 'psychopathic', or at least callous or rude to someone at times...especially to a newbie. I suppose it is possible that something like this might carry across into a post or be 'read into' it. At least, I'm certain that I'm not always as diplomatic as I ought to be.

All I know for sure is that it just hots my britches when someone writes reams of material on the level of philosophical abstractions without even metaphorically pointing to a single aspect in the observable reality to show the trail he/she followed to get there.

Take the idea that it is suffering that is evil:

"My position is that all suffering is evil. I realize that many have argued that suffering can be a good thing, that people are on earth to learn lessons through suffering, but this is totally unacceptable and ultimately false.

Unless I misunderstood the meaning, I simply disagree. To me, this resembles a kind of logical sleight-of-hand. Suffering is a consequence of evil - or at least that which follows from a previous something and that something can be anything from being abused at the hand of a psychopath/sociopath/sadist to making wrong word choices in a conversation or dietary choices that are wrong for your body type.

As just one example: recently, I spent time grieving over the death of my mom, pitying myself and crying for just one more day with her. I still have that pain, though it's getting lighter and lighter. Many people have also experienced this and would understand this as suffering - for themselves as it was for me. If suffering were the evil, then I guess my mom would have been evil before she passed and I would have been 'possessed with evil' at that time. And from the viewpoint of the author of that quote, that would be 'good' because it would have confirmed the 'rightness' of his/her assertion. (Again, this is assuming I didn't misunderstand the statement).

I just found the whole idea disgusting. I also see it as an attempt to distract from actual causes of pain and suffering and I am seriously wondering why.

In addition, anyone who would investigate me and my life would not find a single instance where I deliberately initated any harm to any living being. I never even 'smacked' my own kids. I certainly have even less reason to do any harm here, so, if I came across in a bad way to anyone, I apologize as well.

I just wanted to put this 'out there' in case it happens to be applicable - or just worth noting for some reason.

 

[whovian]

Bud,

I know exactly what you mean. Suffering is a very subjective topic.

It is bizarre how all this dabbling in esoterica has changed my viewpoint. I also experienced a recent death - that of my friends wife. She collapsed while walking their dogs in a park, and they were able to revive her, but she suffered irreversible brain damage and passed away when they removed her from life support. At the funeral, I observed (and also felt) the grief experienced by my friend. One part of me thought, "No one should ever have to go through this in their life, not EVER." But then another part thought, "This is how it was meant to be. It was was her time; it was the plan for her." Of course, this is a much easier thought pattern to follow when you are observing from a distance and not living it first hand. But I can't help but think that this thought pattern will serve me and comfort me in my future suffering. I feel like I can step back and see the big picture, even if it is my big picture (none of us really knows what reality is, do we?) or my reality. The danger here, however, is akin to watching a car track race from the stands. You can sit in the stands and pronounce, "They are driving around in circles and circles. How pointless and stupid!" Lest we forget to jump in and take the wheel. We are already there - so we might as well participate try to win the darn thing!

The other aspect which I very strongly believe in is Karma. I don't judge suffering as 'evil' because it, too is a necessity in the Karmic cycle of things. When I see people starving in a third-world country, I see the Karmic wheel turning. I can't help but think that their soul chose to be there. Why? Only their soul knows for sure. Perhaps they are very spiritually advanced and the intent of their suffering is to help wake up a poor schmuck like myself along with many others. Or perhaps they were wanton and greedy in a prior existence and wish to complete the Karmic cycle by experiencing a destitute existence.

But I also want to help them. I am sorry for their suffering, and I feel that if we can lessen the impact of the suffering, it is our duty to do so. In a fourth-density environment, I believe that our sole purpose will be to help sustain each other, to provide healing, relief, and prevention of this suffering. And so our third-density perspective and reaction to this suffering are the keys to preparing us to take on an increased role of responsibility. In other words, our judgment of suffering will lead us to act upon it. In fourth-density, that judgment will have been removed - we already made our choice in third density. We will simply act because it is our purpose. I believe the removal of judgment will be one of the great freedoms of fourth-density. There will still be difficulties, but the difficulty will be in the how and not the why.

So while suffering is a necessity in the grand scheme of things, perhaps it must be viewed as evil, at least in the third-density realm. This creates an emotion within us, and without this emotion, there is no impetus to remove the suffering, right? And without attempting to remove the suffering, we will not learn how to serve the needs of others. STO. The whole point of why we are here seeking. So on that point, maybe evil is suffering, not the cause of it. Just my perspective.

My condolences to you for your loss. I hope you find peace.

Cheers,

Whovian

 

[truth seeker]

One of the reasons I don't participate actively in many forums is because of this type of reaction (although it was just a misunderstanding - no big deal). I find there is always somebody bigger/badder/better/smarter and they want everyone to know it. Most people would say things on an internet forum that they would never dream of saying in person for whatever reason. I understand the psychopathy involved with such a venture, and the fact that you have many of them on this forum. You have to screen them and react appropriately. That includes getting to the crux and intention of their post(s). I will accept the fact that you were 'screening' me. :)

While I do see the point you're making here, this forum isn't like other forums. If it were, I wouldn't be here. To me, the issue with those forums isn't that there is always someone bigger/badder/better/smarter but rather that such behaviors are allowed on such forums. It's the fact that pathology is allowed to take hold in the first place that causes the chaotic environment. This forum would have been quickly overrun by these types if they were overlooked.

May I make a humble suggestion? In some other forums, the moderators are essentially 'invisible,' meaning that they just monitor the boards. If the moderators here want to actively participate, why don't you do so under another pseudo-name? Wouldn't this reduce some of the psychopathy? I mean, how many people come here just to say that they interacted or debated or agreed publicly with Laura or one of her moderator friends? It helps many feed their hungry egos, especially when they can "one-up" somebody in a public forum.

Well, in my opinion, it wouldn't. Many of the pathological types that come here do so primarily to cause distraction out of a personal need or desire to hurt Laura specifically. I don't think that those who seek to feed in general particularly care who they feed off, they just seek satiation.

The other aspect which I very strongly believe in is Karma. I don't judge suffering as 'evil' because it, too is a necessity in the Karmic cycle of things. When I see people starving in a third-world country, I see the Karmic wheel turning. I can't help but think that their soul chose to be there. Why? Only their soul knows for sure. Perhaps they are very spiritually advanced and the intent of their suffering is to help wake up a poor schmuck like myself along with many others. Or perhaps they were wanton and greedy in a prior existence and wish to complete the Karmic cycle by experiencing a destitute existence.

So while suffering is a necessity in the grand scheme of things, perhaps it must be viewed as evil, at least in the third-density realm. This creates an emotion within us, and without this emotion, there is no impetus to remove the suffering, right? And without attempting to remove the suffering, we will not learn how to serve the needs of others. STO. The whole point of why we are here seeking. So on that point, maybe evil is suffering, not the cause of it. Just my perspective.

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction between these two statements.

Perhaps the what's going on is that there is some oversimplification of the issue. People like to put ideas in boxes. It makes us feel safe and in control. Perhaps we "like" to view suffering as evil because it upholds our worldview that we can somehow control it. It sounds to me like blaming the victim. "Well they are suffering because they chose it." End of story. I believe the same is true in terms of most people thoughts on karma. To me, it's not much different from the idea of heaven and hell. Those who do right end up in heaven, those who do wrong end up in hell. It's a way of comforting ourselves so that we can continue sleeping and not have to do the very difficult work of looking at ourselves and the world.

In case you haven't seen it, here is the forum's current understanding of karma. You'll see that it differs from the conventional definition in that one has some awareness of themselves. They are otherwise subject to chance influences.

 

[whovian]

Truth Seeker,

I hope you are right about this forum. In any case, I just don't have enough time to be reading or posting on here everyday anyway. But even if I did, I probably wouldn't based on my experiences in other forums.

I think if you take those two sentences and place them side by side, then yes, they do contradict. But they are arising from two different viewpoints. (Everything we discuss here is based on 'oversimplification.' There is no way to fully understand complex concepts like Karma from our third-density perspective; it is an extremely advanced topic.) There is always more than one path to take, and that path not only affects our life but the lives of others around us.

If you read my entire post, then you understand that I do not feel that people "are suffering because they chose it," otherwise I would not feel the impetus to help them. I would simply say, "Let them suffer - they obviously have a lesson to learn." I do feel that we choose the path we are on in a general way(coming into a specific third-density existence), but the paths can vary greatly. This is how I view 'chance influence.' I do not believe that we 'auto-recycle' into incarnations based on our choices.

I think my most important point was about judgment. Here, we are given the opportunity to decide whether suffering is acceptable. Perhaps those that suffer greatly have already made that judgment in a prior incarnation, and they are here now to help others decide. That would be the greatest Service to Others I could think of. I don't like the prior references about the 'student questioning the teacher,' because that implies that we have no input into the lesson plan. I do think we have choices; we have no idea, however, how the lessons will go because we don't really know the paths others may take or how that may affect us.

As we spiritually advance, we began to see that the Creator is reflected in all, and that the purpose of our incarnations is to experience the 'other selves' as the RA material would say. When we see that we are no different from others, we lose that judgment and therefore lose the impetus to view something as 'good' or 'evil.' It just 'is' because it is part of the Creator and the Creator is everything. So here you have the 'overview' as opposed to the 'inner-view.' Does that make sense? So there are really two different viewpoints on this.

Sorry, not sure if I am getting my point across, but I hope you get what I am saying in a general sense.

Have a great day,

whovian

 

[Buddy]

Thank you for the condolences and the same to you. :)

Bud,
I know exactly what you mean. Suffering is a very subjective topic.
It is bizarre how all this dabbling in esoterica has changed my viewpoint.
[...]
At the funeral, I observed (and also felt) the grief experienced by my friend. One part of me thought, "No one should ever have to go through this in their life, not EVER." But then another part thought, "This is how it was meant to be. It was was her time; it was the plan for her." Of course, this is a much easier thought pattern to follow when you are observing from a distance and not living it first hand. But I can't help but think that this thought pattern will serve me and comfort me in my future suffering.

This sounds like common disassociation that Martha Stout describes in "Myth of Sanity". When disassociation provides one perspective on an event and association with one's whole self provides another, this is not the same as a matured, healthy, objective view of the event, OSIT.

I feel like I can step back and see the big picture, even if it is my big picture (none of us really knows what reality is, do we?)

This sounds like the philosophical position of Existentialism: Since reality cannot be known, there is no point to anything, really, so why not just take the path of least resistance in every context of life?

So while suffering is a necessity in the grand scheme of things, perhaps it must be viewed as evil, at least in the third-density realm. This creates an emotion within us, and without this emotion, there is no impetus to remove the suffering, right? And without attempting to remove the suffering, we will not learn how to serve the needs of others. STO. The whole point of why we are here seeking. So on that point, maybe evil is suffering, not the cause of it. Just my perspective.

Pardon me, but this perspective seems to make little sense. Nothing in this sandwich explains the purpose of the bread. IOW, in this quote, how you arrive at the two statements about 'evil is suffering' is not explained by anything in the middle, as I see it.

Are you familiar with the work of Gurdjieff? G introduces the concept of conscious suffering. Linked to the purpose of self-work, this suffering is a 'good', not an evil. It would probably be OK to say: 'Suffering' is simply a biological warning that something is wrong compared with the status quo. Where you stand would determine how you interpret that suffering. If a person is inclined toward STO, suffering can lead to optimizing the choices one has been making. If one is inclined more toward STS, suffering may indicate the need for more bad choices - for example, increasing one's mechanical behavior to reestablish self-calming because there was too much unpredictable novelty (chaos from the STS point of view) added to the environment.

Perhaps exposing yourself to a more robust view of human psychological nature, as provided by Gurdjieff, will help you to understand and resolve these apparantly contradictory views on 'suffering'.

 

[truth seeker]

I hope you are right about this forum. In any case, I just don't have enough time to be reading or posting on here everyday anyway. But even if I did, I probably wouldn't based on my experiences in other forums.

Well, it's completely up to you how much you participate. I will say however that the two main things we try do here are research and the objective seeing of ourselves which requires a network. I understand fully that you may be wary because of your past experiences but we do try to take the greatest care to meet each person where they are at. The thing is, they have to also extend effort and meet us half way. This means being willing to being given objective feedback. If people have programs that are harmful to themselves and others, it will be eventually pointed out. How else would one objectively know how others perceive them?

So don't fear. :) There is much compassion to be found here.

I think if you take those two sentences and place them side by side, then yes, they do contradict. But they are arising from two different viewpoints. (Everything we discuss here is based on 'oversimplification.' There is no way to fully understand complex concepts like Karma from our third-density perspective; it is an extremely advanced topic.) There is always more than one path to take, and that path not only affects our life but the lives of others around us.

Thanks for the clarification. While I agree that it may be a complex idea and difficult to understand within the confines of 3D, perhaps it becomes a bit easier when we find agreement on the definition of the word. There is the more general understanding and then there is the understanding we have here - two very different things. :)

I think my most important point was about judgment. Here, we are given the opportunity to decide whether suffering is acceptable. Perhaps those that suffer greatly have already made that judgment in a prior incarnation, and they are here now to help others decide. That would be the greatest Service to Others I could think of. I don't like the prior references about the 'student questioning the teacher,' because that implies that we have no input into the lesson plan. I do think we have choices; we have no idea, however, how the lessons will go because we don't really know the paths others may take or how that may affect us.

Understood. Perhaps that is possible but I would "think" that might happen on a much smaller scale. I currently think that the vast majority of those who suffer do so because of their mechanical nature and because of psychopaths/pathology. How can one make a choice if they are unaware? (rhetorical question)

As we spiritually advance, we began to see that the Creator is reflected in all, and that the purpose of our incarnations is to experience the 'other selves' as the RA material would say. When we see that we are no different from others, we lose that judgment and therefore lose the impetus to view something as 'good' or 'evil.' It just 'is' because it is part of the Creator and the Creator is everything. So here you have the 'overview' as opposed to the 'inner-view.' Does that make sense? So there are really two different viewpoints on this.

Yes. When we become more objective, we tend to not become reactive/mechanical in our response to suffering. This is why we try to work on our programming, to better know ourselves and to disengage the hooks that lead us to behaviors that cause suffering and/or feed off the suffering of others.

 

[anart]

Truth Seeker,

I hope you are right about this forum. In any case, I just don't have enough time to be reading or posting on here everyday anyway. But even if I did, I probably wouldn't based on my experiences in other forums.

All it takes is reading - not every day - not even every other day - but reading for at least a while to see what this forum is. The proof is in the pudding. Either one is interested or one is not. Either is objectively fine in a Free Will Universe. If a person doesn't participate on one forum due to experiences on another forum, then perhaps they might need to try to understand why that is. It's rather like saying I don't eat chicken due to having some bad ham.

 

[casper]

it ia a great place to learn abaut pain and safaring ,isnt it?Some people are sick,some are they hungry,war is almost everywere ,but we mast be learn and when we came in front the late came and learn from begining.For whu I mast learn agen?

 

[syldan]

A quote from the Ra material came to mind as i read this thread. And i take this quote to be an important lesson in itself: (quoting from memory here)

"There is only one love, a unique truth. No two people will see the same thing but everything is infinitely One." - Ra

Hoping that this may help?!

 

[casper]

Did someone who is suffering helps to know that is true unique,how we recognize the truth in the crowd of lies?Of course that everyone sees in his own way,but the problem is that it is not respected and recognized a different view of the same things,especially if you are in the minority.My question is :until when,where are the limits that we can not pass because the most "people"declare that you are a mad and crazy?

 

[axj]

Did someone who is suffering helps to know that is true unique,how we recognize the truth in the crowd of lies?Of course that everyone sees in his own way,but the problem is that it is not respected and recognized a different view of the same things,especially if you are in the minority.My question is :until when,where are the limits that we can not pass because the most "people"declare that you are a mad and crazy?

The main thing is to recognize and live the truth yourself. It is also not a good idea to share certain ideas with people who are not ready for them. If they ask or are open to receiving, you can share.

 

[casper]

Lies,deception,disparagement,intentional infliction of physical and mental pain,should we suffer?
No,I can not stand that when someone stomping and thereby enjoys in my pain and then I do not wonder if they are ready to hear my
side,seeingthe the truth because they are of course ,never be ready to receive other sightings of truth .Where is the justice?I ask again:
Where are the limits that should not be crossed?

 

[axj]

If someone causes you pain, then you do whatever is necessary to stop that. When faced with a predator, you defend yourself.

However, in most situations you are dealing with people who mean you no harm. Trying to convince people to see through the lies they believe in will hardly ever work. Some people are ready to hear the truth - and it seems that their number is increasing.

 

[Oxajil]

A quote from the Ra material came to mind as i read this thread. And i take this quote to be an important lesson in itself: (quoting from memory here)

"There is only one love, a unique truth. No two people will see the same thing but everything is infinitely One." - Ra

That's a nice quote romochar. I should mention, however, that sometimes with quotes such as ''everything is infinitely One'', one may start to misunderstand and think that everyone is equal, which is as we know from, for example psychopathy research, not true. I'm sure you already know this, but just a word of caution. Other than that, I agree that there is ultimately one objective truth, as opposed to 'your' or 'my' truth, which is also I think what you meant to say with this quote :)

Did someone who is suffering helps to know that is true unique,how we recognize the truth in the crowd of lies?Of course that everyone sees in his own way,but the problem is that it is not respected and recognized a different view of the same things,especially if you are in the minority.My question is :until when,where are the limits that we can not pass because the most "people"declare that you are a mad and crazy?

The main thing is to recognize and live the truth yourself. It is also not a good idea to share certain ideas with people who are not ready for them. If they ask or are open to receiving, you can share.

Yea, it can be tricky though to know when someone's asking or not. If in doubt, you could always network about it here. If you haven't done so already, definitely see this thread which is related: 'Awakened conscience', DOing, and achieving CRITICAL MASS, feel free to add your thoughts or experiences to the discussion!

And, for what it's worth, when it comes to sharing information, one thing you can already do, besides writing posts here, is sharing via social media. Not only will it be another way to connect with like-minded people, but you may actually shed light on an issue for someone who is searching for answers.