Another instant 'attack'?

[Nathan]

Although we have come a long way from the original title of this thread, and we could have renamed the thread many times over as it has progressed, but allow me to jump back to something Johnno quoted a couple of pages ago, which highlights just how under-developed the real I is once the false personality is "stripped to the bone" - as it is phrased in Shamanic initiation.

I was reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous last night and it went into this into some detail. Laura also sent an e-mail out to QFS covering a similar section. The gist of it from memory goes like this.

The "predators mind" is described as the personality which develops from a child beating the "essence" or real "I" into submission. The formation of the personality according to Gurdjieff is largely formed by impressions from outside. Most of society is subject to these outside impressions. (Think of societies value on "competetiveness", "ambition", "strong leadership" etc). So thus all of mankind is in this state of waking sleep due to these outside impressions. Perceptions may alter slightly but on the whole, as an example, we can't remember what clothes we were wearingt two weeks ago because we're in a semi conscious state, allowing a heap of other junk to filter through.

Gurdjieff found that those who briefly awakened, broke the chains of personality had the essence of a small child if any at all, it had been that badly treated. Even what would generally be considered "esoteric" in forums such as these, Gurdjieff considered them "exoteric" by his standards.

I instantly thought of something Laura quoted from the first page of this thread:

I do not remember now who was the first to notice that our friends found we had begun to change for the worse. They found us less interesting than we had been before; they told us we were becoming colorless, as though we were fading, were losing our former spontaneity, our former responsiveness to everything, that we were becoming "machines," were ceasing to think originally, were ceasing to feel, that we were merely repeating like parrots what we heard from G.

G. laughed a great deal when we told him about this.

"Wait, there is worse to come," he said. "Do you understand what this really means? It means that you have stopped lying; at any rate you don't lie so well, that is, you can no longer lie in so interesting a way as before.

He is an interesting man who lies well. But you are already ashamed of lying. You are now able to acknowledge to yourselves sometimes that there is something you do not know or do not understand, and you cannot talk as if you knew all about everything. It means of course that you have become less interesting, less original, and less, as they say, responsive.

So now you are really able to see what sort of people your friends are. And on their part they are sorry for you. And in their own way they are right. You have already begun to die."

He emphasized this word. "It is a long way yet to complete death but still a certain amount of silliness is going out of you. You can no longer deceive yourselves as sincerely as you did before. You have now got the taste of truth."

I think this may have also been covered by Castaneda:

The Second Ring of Power

"It sounds as if you had a heart attack," I said.
"Maybe I did," [la Gorda] replied, "but one thing I know for sure. The day I lost it, I lost my human form[predator's mind?]. I became so weak that for days I couldn't even get out of my bed. Since that day I haven't had the energy to be my old self. From time to time I have tried to get into my old habits, but I didn't have the strength to enjoy them the way I used to. Finally I gave up trying."
"What is the point of losing your form?"
"A warrior must drop the human form in order to change, to really change. Otherwise there is only talk about change, like in your case. The Nagual [Don Juan] said that it is useless to think or hope that one can change one's habits. One cannot change one iota as long as one holds on to the human form. The Nagual told me that a warrior knows that he cannot change, and yet makes it is his business to try to change, even though he knows that he won't be able to. That's the only advantage a warrior has over the average man. The warrior is never disappointed when he fails to change."
"But you are still yourself, Gorda, aren't you?"
"No. Not anymore. The only thing that makes you think you are yourself is the form[predator's mind?]. Once it leaves, you are nothing."
"But you still talk and think and feel as you always did, don't you?"
"Not at all. I'm new."

pp. 156-157

Any thoughts?

 

[Lan8r]

Thank You for sharing your thoughts Nathan, Saman and EsoQuest!
They are helping me to see my own with much more clarity.

My big sacred cow was that love conquers all. WRONG (or partially so). The partially is the devil here. Love conquers all when it is strong enough to do so, and it is strong enough when it is cultivated through a relationship that provides fertile ground for it.

One of my cows was of a similar breed, add to it an enormous dose of guilt for having failed at what was to me the most sacred of all comittments. I sometimes feel as though I purposely harden the soil so that only the strongest of seeds could even attempt to break the surface. Or none at all.

...they have to face themselves when alone, and that is what we all try to avoid. And yet, that is the only way to find the Ideal and elliminate the thoughts choking it.

I have been facing myself alone now for seven years. Although I don't always like what I see, my journey into myself continues to be my greatest adventure. My failure became my greatest gift. I have alot of work to do on myself and I do enjoy my own company!!, And I wonder, will I still feel this way when the next decade passes in a flash?! Without the Ideal, I might wind up being a crabby old maid with no one to wipe the drool off my chin!!

...Often to find the ideal you have to think you have rejected it, only to eventually discover that you have only rejected all the thoughts about it.

So maybe that is where I am. Still in the process of rejecting all the thoughts about it. Maybe a little worried that being content with myself = giving up on my ideals.

Oh well, Life is a process. Thanks for the feedback.

Laurie

 

[Keit]

Although we have come a long way from the original title of this thread, and we could have renamed the thread many times over as it has progressed, but allow me to jump back to something Johnno quoted a couple of pages ago, which highlights just how under-developed the real I is once the false personality is "stripped to the bone" - as it is phrased in Shamanic initiation...

Any thoughts?

Several thoughts...

In my opinion there is not only one "shamanic death" or "alchemic transformation", but constant series of "small" ones leading to one major, and so on. It's like a cycle or spiral, completion of each spin results in change of "skin" - death of something that was before and growth of something new. New connections with outside reality. New realizations and perception. When the process between one major change to another is gradual and requier continuious attention and inner effort, after end point is reached, change of skin can occure almost unnoticed. You wake up one morning and realise that you've changed. And this kind of "death" is experienced by those who already chose their path and walk on it until the next new crossroad. For them reality unfolds itself, presenting them with lessons "costumized" for their level of progression. Like in the case of complex non linear puzzle, every thought represent a piece of this puzzle. And when the picture is complete, "change of skin" occures. New pallet is born to be filled. In most cases those changes doesn't create strong turbulence because envolve gradual progression, there are no serious "jumps". You just suddenly realise that something you worked on for some time just gone or transformed. But this is possible that a "sensitive" person will perceive it literaly as "without skin" - increased discomfort to outside world, especiallly to people who do not have collinear thoughts. I see this type of "death" as a natural and continious (cyclic) process of those who made a choice to walk on esoteric path. It's a part of everyday experience called life.

There is another kind of "death". And I think that la Gorda was reffering to this particular kind (or something similar). If "change of skin" was triggered by serious shock to one's perception or point of view, it can create strong turbulence as a result of destroyed foundations (or so it perceived by the one who experience it). This extreme experience require lot of inner strength on the part of the person in order to use it for growth and not for a possible self destruction. And in my opinion it can be a perfect self test, although I don't think that anyone will induce such tests voluntary. "Thankfully" reality creates them for us :) After this kind of "death" there is a need to evaluate everything that was known until this particular moment, that's why it's seems that everything was destroyed and something new should be build from the ashes. But this feeling of a complete loss of foundation is an illusion, because there is always some foundation, realisation that shouldn't be revaluated again, but should be reintegrated or rearanged into something new. And some things should be left behind permanently.
After the turbulence is over and everything was rearanged, there is a curious feeling of completely new body or skin. Like some things that we struggeled so long to get rid of, gone and left no residue. It's a clean house. Well, untill we take a look inside some deep and forgotten closet :)

I can relate to this kind of "death" because experienced something similar not so long ago (although I can't tell if this was THE "shamanic initiation", and frankly - it doesn't matter to me. ) I was faced with very painful situation. Situation that forced me to realise something I knew already for sometime but didn't want to admit. I was simply afraid to make a move. And apparently this fear was so deep and strong, so when I was left with "naked truth" before my eyes, and without any helping hand I could hold on and ease my suffering - I simply wanted to die. Not physical death - but to perish. To end it once and for all. I saw nothing infront of my eyes. I actually thought that I am going insane. Very frighting feeling. It's like to see yourself from outside, bombarded with intensive storm of thoughts and emotions and still be able to hold on. During the day I felt that I was sitting in the deepest pit, looking up and seeing small light, but without will or strength to get up and try to climb. At night I struggled not to let this insanity to take over through the dreams. And the most frighting thought was a feeling of a complete loneliness and uselessness. And during this period I trully understood the fact that everyone of us is completely on their own. That no one will give me strength if I will not work to develop it. There is no super higher help that will pull me out of the pit. I can let myself die, and the universe will continue on it couse. The question is do I WANT to live. And if I do - there is no other force that can interfere with it. Force of life bits all.
And maybe you'll find it funny (I find it so ;) ) but everytime I remind this to myself, I show my fist to "havens"/ "hell" (what ever you like) and make them be aware that there is no probability (what ever anyone planned for me beside myself) that could be changed by such force. And only then the true work begins. I still needed to get out of pit somehow and continue on a journey. But this is another story. The fact is, this kind of "death" can be the greatest gift a person could have. But ohh no, not frequently...:)

I do not remember now who was the first to notice that our friends found we had begun to change for the worse. They found us less interesting than we had been before; they told us we were becoming colorless, as though we were fading, were losing our former spontaneity, our former responsiveness to everything, that we were becoming "machines," were ceasing to think originally, were ceasing to feel, that we were merely repeating like parrots what we heard from G.

Yes, I already got my share of "You was so interesting once. Today you are so predictible, so boring. What happened to you? Maybe you should make some fun, do some changes in your attitude. You are so negative, relax..." Actually it is extremely funny because I find them so boring I start to grind my teeth when I have to "play" their games. :) So predictable with specific set of programs I already know by heart. And when they face with something out of this set, they jam like robots who received contradictory comands. I sware I almost can see a white smoke coming from their ears.

 

[Craig]

Yes, I already got my share of "You was so interesting once. Today you are so predictible, so boring. What happened to you? Maybe you should make some fun, do some changes in your attitude. You are so negative, relax..." Actually it is extremely funny because I find them so boring I start to grind my teeth when I have to "play" their games. :) So predictable with specific set of programs I already know by heart. And when they face with something out of this set, they jam like robots who received contradictory comands. I sware I almost can see a white smoke coming from their ears.

Yep, I've experienced this for a while now. In fact, just the other day I was in the car on the way to the airport with a family friend and he said to me: "You know Craig, sometimes I think you're from another planet... you're just not, well, normal are you?" And right at that very moment, I looked up at a huge billboard and on it - in big bold letters - was written: "A L C H E M Y".

 

[Guest]

And I wonder, will I still feel this way when the next decade passes in a flash?! Without the Ideal, I might wind up being a crabby old maid with no one to wipe the drool off my chin!!

Well, there are many couples where one passes on before the other, leaving the latter with no one to wipe the drool from their chin!! Imagine THAT shock. Being alone is not the end I would want, but being in a relationship just to have someone hold that napkin doesn't work either, IMO. I know of a lot of crabby couples as well.

Personally, I haven't met many older people who aren't crabby, when you get under surface appearances at least. Old age is usually a time when people give up. And the ones that still have drive usually define their lives in terms of other people. Unless, of course they are determined to LIVE until the last minute. The image of the drooling infirm old person is a pathological one. The point is to grow old on our feet and stay on our feet with a clear mind till the end.

"Normal" people get married, but that is not enough. If they stick with it they have children, and for a while are preoccupied, but that is still not enough. They can stick with it and their children grow. Then they feel an emptiness, and they want grandchildren.

They claim it's the way of nature. I think its an attempt to fill in a hole that is void of real meaning. Yet the "happy" ones are usually the ones too busy filling that hole in their preoccupation with others until death overtakes them unawares. Ignorance is bliss.

I am all for being with someone. But at this point I will not burden anyone with myself before I can be who I want to be: myself. And, similarly by being myself I can be a source of life to another, and hence deserve a return (also being mature enough not to be fooled by fools taking me for one).

In that sense, I guess facing oneself alone is not enough. Freeing oneself from that face is what's needed, and that's the hard part. When we are alone with that face staring back at us, we are still in bad company. And time is never well-spent in bad company. That would make anyone crabby!

 

[Guest]

Yep, I've experienced this for a while now. In fact, just the other day I was in the car on the way to the airport with a family friend and he said to me: "You know Craig, sometimes I think you're from another planet... you're just not, well, normal are you?" And right at that very moment, I looked up at a huge billboard and on it - in big bold letters - was written: "A L C H E M Y".

Well join the club. I even had a dream where friends and family started yelling at me, saying I changed and have become boring, that I used to be "full of life" and now I'm dull.

I think, however, at some point when inner change stabilizes and one is more "cleaned out" from the old, the wheel turns again, and one can interact with "normal" people in a more or less fun way. I think you eventually learn to see meaning in the little things as well as in grand truths, and that can become an energizing influence even in what one can consider the most trivial company.

By "fun" I mean that living the differential between "normal" people and your own truth can be exciting because one constantly sees the unseen in everything and relates on that level. What others observe is one's enhanced sense of life, and such a perspective is never considered boring. Before that happens, however, I think the wheel of one's deconditioning and growth into real being must come full circle, and when it does, one literally finds oneself standing on new ground in relation to everything.

 

[anart]

Yep, I've experienced this for a while now. In fact, just the other day I was in the car on the way to the airport with a family friend and he said to me: "You know Craig, sometimes I think you're from another planet... you're just not, well, normal are you?" And right at that very moment, I looked up at a huge billboard and on it - in big bold letters - was written: "A L C H E M Y".

Well join the club. I even had a dream where friends and family started yelling at me, saying I changed and have become boring, that I used to be "full of life" and now I'm dull.

Sounds like, as Gurdjieff said, "you don't lie so well anymore" - and because you've stopped lying, you've stopped being 'interesting' to those who live with constant internal and external lies. Ouspensky wrote about it in 'In Search of the Miraculous' when he related his experience of G's students mentioning to Gurdjieff that their old friends find them boring now. I deal with it every day as well, and often find myself 'pretending' to be how I used to be just to make people more comfortable - fascinating what a difference some Work makes.

 

[Craig]

Sounds like, as Gurdjieff said, "you don't lie so well anymore" - and because you've stopped lying, you've stopped being 'interesting' to those who live with constant internal and external lies. Ouspensky wrote about it in 'In Search of the Miraculous' when he related his experience of G's students mentioning to Gurdjieff that their old friends find them boring now. I deal with it every day as well, and often find myself 'pretending' to be how I used to be just to make people more comfortable - fascinating what a difference some Work makes.

But also remember what Gurdjieff said: "by considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and for himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself." And here is the double advantage that Mouravieff speaks about: presence in oneself is necessary for external consideration, which sets up a self sustaining cycle which can speed up progression: presence > outer considering > presence. All of which builds the screen against the effect of the General Law.

 

[anart]

No question, Craig. By making things more comfortable for others, by 'pretending' to be the person I was three years ago, it also makes things easier for me. I've struggled with the lack of sincerity that this type of interaction often necessitates, but then remember that 'sincerety in all things is a weakness', and that one much choose wisely when to be sincere and when to simply 'go with the flow' to make others happy, as it were.

 

[Saman]

I just wanted to say that I have realized that there was a "leash" through the mental man causing me to try to force myself to cage in the inner dog. And this "leash" created more focus on sex then what it was supposed to do in the opposite! Hence, the oath that was in regards to myself personally and not my friend must be nullified, since it was due to an "I" of "infra sex", or say, due the "Predator Minds" conditioned predator programmings! :)

Moreover, on another note, I've just finished watching a show on TV called the passionate eye. It was talking about transexual people and so forth, and it showed that in Nature, when it comes to sexuality, there is no black and white dogma as one is imprinted to believe through pathrocatic programming. The show emphasized the point that it doesn't matter want people think, but rather WHO you are that matters. So whatever sexual preference you have, since it is part of the diversity of Mother Nature, it is of "normal sex". Whoever is afraid of this concept of Unity through diversity is of "infra sex", or so I think.

:) Anyways, just some current thoughts. Thanks All.

[Note: from this point on, I am not gonna bother using brackets [] to indicate where I have made just simple corrections. I will just use them for major corrections, well, that is for now, since I am thinking I might just rather forget about this whole bracket notion altogether hehe ]

[PS. To paraphrase another point that was stated in the tv show by a professor, biology, ( and here will insert my own insight to the paraphrase since this is not what the prof. stated about biology), is say another reflective aspect of Mother Nature, and so, getting back to paraphrase of what the prof. said, loves diversity. It is society that doesn't like diversity, end paraphrase. So I think we have the reason why society doesn't like diveristy due to the works such as ponerology, that is, acceptance of diversity leads to Unity of the people, and so, it becomes a hinderance to the status quo of the pathrocratic societal programmings of the "elites", or so I think.]

 

[Nathan]

Note: from this point on, I am not gonna bother using brackets [] to indicate where I have made just simple corrections. I will just use them for major corrections, well, that is for now, since I am thinking I might just rather forget about this whole bracket notion altogether hehe ]

Hi Saman! I don't really understand why you were using brackets anyway - unless for the purpose of inserting your comments in quoted material that you are posting. I see that you are openly showing readers what you have altered or corrected, which is fine in principle but not only are the brackets a bit distracting and have a tendency to dilute your writing, I simply don't see them as necessary, or even helpful.

For example, if someone were to go back and alter a post to save face or even change their opinion so as to seem right from the beginning and make others look foolish, observant forum members would not hesitate to bring it to everyone's attention. So proving your honesty with brackets - if that is what you are doing here - really isn't needed. We trust that whatever edits we make are not to intentionally manipulate or confuse the discussion. This preserves the process so that future readers can follow the discussion with some clarity and see how those involved in the discussion have worked towards further understanding.

Try hitting the 'Preview' button before submitting a post and have a quick read through for any corrections you want to make. That way, you can do away with brackets altogether! :)

 

[Saman]

So proving your honesty with brackets - if that is what you are doing here - really isn't needed. We trust that whatever edits we make are not to intentionally manipulate or confuse the discussion. This preserves the process so that future readers can follow the discussion with some clarity and see how those involved in the discussion have worked towards further understanding.

Try hitting the 'Preview' button before submitting a post and have a quick read through for any corrections you want to make. That way, you can do away with brackets altogether! :)

Well, that is part of it, which sort of nears the line between "self importance" and self respect, but another idea I had was to see in retrospect later how my machine may have made sub-conscious "errs" so to say. Sometimes they are basic "errs" and sometimes they seem to be more then just simple typing errs that are usually mainly due to blank spots and transpositional errs...Anyways, I think I will just use them like I did above in inserting major afterthoughts that are two to three lines or more then one paragraph :)

Cheers.

PS. I do in fact use the preview button TONS of times, especially when I am quoting in quotes and quotes...and quotes! Hehe

 

[vinny]

No question, Craig. By making things more comfortable for others, by 'pretending' to be the person I was three years ago, it also makes things easier for me. I've struggled with the lack of sincerity that this type of interaction often necessitates, but then remember that 'sincerety in all things is a weakness', and that one much choose wisely when to be sincere and when to simply 'go with the flow' to make others happy, as it were.

yep, me too. I sometimes find that when I have to (ok, when I choose to) go out and be social and 'fun' for a weekend with my friends, that can be quite a draining experience, i guess because I am being false about myself. but it is necessary to keep up the external 'role' to a certain extent, depending on the reason for doing that.

 

[Saman]

I just wanted to say that I have realized that there was a "leash" through the mental man causing me to try to force myself to cage in the inner dog. And this "leash" created more focus on sex then what it was supposed to do in the opposite! Hence, the oath that was in regards to myself personally and not my friend must be nullified, since it was due to an "I" of "infra sex", or say, due the "Predator Minds" conditioned predator programmings! :)

In the light of new information confirming my feelings that I could not verify objectively in regards to Esoquest, it has become clear to me that Esoquest manipulated me into thinking that I had a "leash" upon myself and that this was a "negative" manner self control due his connotation of the "mental man", rather then the spiritual man within. So he cleverly fooled me into self doubt and into the self justification to think as self control over the animal man, the 'inner dog', as "negative" since I was using a "leash", and since the "predator mind" sees anything that hampers it's control within as "negative", it makes sense to me now why he thought it was a 'bad' thing. So in regards to this so called "negative" "leash" that is in fact POSITIVE in regards to attaining the 'sovereignty' of the Real I within, or in other words, a POSITIVE "leash" that is really just a personal and contextually relevant Warrior strategy in regards to conserving life-force for the "progression" of the soul's lesson profile in this Realm rather then allowing the "predator mind" use it for "digression" and not learning of lessons, SO BE IT! The 'inner dog' is NOT a real dog, and even if it was, a "leash"/strategy in regards to conserving life-force in this context IS necessary, like just as it is okay to put a leash on a real dog so that it does not get run over by a car in the park and perish, or does not go do its business on another person's lawn due to its doggy-ness nature.

So I take back what I have quoted above and change my course back to what it was before this clever manipulation by the MCS.

 

[Saman]

I have come to realize that I know next to nothing and all that have I wrote in this thread and all that I have tried to do in regards to 'sex' was ALL useless. I can't do anything until I find the 'stable' or permanent will of the true or real self. Looking within, there is only much ambivalence, depression, chaos, and stagnation, and thus no true will.