Archetypes and Self Expression

[truth seeker]

The recent Charlie Hebdo protests got me thinking about the idea of "freedom of self expression" and how it manifests in different groups. People have an instinctual desire to belong and when they don't feel as if they fit in they're own tribe/family, they seek out another. This instinct (shared collective tendency), in this case is possibly a need for survival. People look to various groups and causes that they believe reflect their own values. They think they have made a choice that represents "who" they are, but in reality, it's no different from choosing between soft drinks. In other words, their "choices" are not their own, but rather someone else's and they are simply reacting to, external influences. Isn't it really just another form of imprisonment?

This excerpt from the wave touches upon this idea:

From the Wave Chapter 49: Frequency Resonance Vibration

And, while I have your ear: what’s up with the way kids dress nowadays? Well, it’s not even just kids – it’s ubiquitous! It seems that human beings, under the influence of Madison Avenue and the motivation masters of greed and degradation, get up real early in the morning in order to figure out how to dress themselves, arrange their hair, and decorate their bodies in as repulsive a way as possible!

I am continuously revolted by clerks in stores with multiply pierced body parts, tattoos that look more like dirt smudges or bruises than art, hair that looks like it was arranged by Atilla the Hun or Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor; make-up that looks like it was applied by Vlad the Impaler. Young people wear clothing that makes them look like rejects from the Oklahoma dust bowl days. Chains and chunks of metal clank from every part of their person as they saunter about displaying their “cool” to their peers, looking more like a combination of an ancient Mongol warrior and survivor of a death camp than anything else.

And it’s not what they claim – personal expression – because it is more of a uniform than anything else! The demand to have the same look, the same brand of clothing, the same body parts pierced, or to think of new and more bizarre ways to do it, is overwhelming every parent I know. I have had to draw the line in my own house, telling my kids that they won’t eat at my table if the way they look makes my stomach churn!

Who or what is inspiring these manifestations of purely barbaric behavior? Who is turning humanity into beings who accept what used to be the trappings of slavery as if it were the latest style? And what’s more, to convince them that it is “expressive” or “attractive?” What, in the name of God, is going on when physical self-mutilation and self-defacement, mind-numbing and body-jarring sounds, and things that are just plain ugly are considered normal?! And, not just normal, but attractive, for God’s sake!

Those who have bought into the New Age bonanza seem to have shut off their minds and the effect on their offspring is frightening. They have become part of a reality that is ripe for being taken over by the first “strong man” who comes along with “signs and wonders.”

However, based on the information from the Cs, we now have some idea that the fourth density (equivalent to the fifth dimension in mathematical terms), is a para-physical realm of archetypes, and that these archetypal groupings may be the arbiters of human, societal, and national interactions as conceived, and created by mass thought or vice versa! We may merely be the actors in an archetypal play that is written, cast, directed and produced from some other layer of reality. It may be that there are set pieces we each play, and perhaps these cumulative events of humans in this world are the energies that express the balance or imbalance of forces or beings at higher levels.

If "all the world's a stage" and we are essentially puppeted, then people chanting "I am Charlie" or engaged in other forms of "self-expression" aren't really expressing freedom of anything but are slaves to their unacknowledged, repressed instincts. This sends a signal to the universe that they consent not only to their own torture and enslavement, but the torture and enslavement of others. Where's the freedom in that?

 

[Renaissance]

I think it's pretty appalling that so many are aligning themselves with the 'I am Charlie Hebdo' meme. I don't know if people have seen their cartoons, but from what I've seen much of it looks like pornographic hate speech.

If people were really concerned with freedom of expression, there would also be outraged about journalists in 'democratic' countries now censoring themselves due to mass surveillance. Instead there is silence. And nary a peep over the 17 journalists killed during the siege on Gaza in July and we see the same apathy over the journalists being abducted and murdered in Ukraine.

Instead people rally behind Charlie Hedbo, a bigoted and hateful propagandist. The outrage is more about protecting pathology than truth. I guess it shows a lot about what our society values. As a society, people have aligned and identified with base and corrupted ideals (if you can even call them that) and behaviors. It does make you wonder what exactly is behind these things and what people are connecting to.

And we DO see this in many forms throughout society. Self expression that is meant to be jarring and offensive really isn't representative of true human freedom.

I had been thinking that those who mutilate themselves with piercings and such might be doing this to express some sort of internalized pain (or something along those lines), however, that doesn't jive with how self-harm is usually kept hidden from others. And this particular kind of 'self-expression' seems so in your face. It's like those doing this are begging the question, 'what IS up with that?' But it's also a given that social politeness keep people from asking such things and so people are expected to just accept it, i.e. normalize it.

 

[whitecoast]

People look to various groups and causes that they believe reflect their own values. They think they have made a choice that represents "who" they are, but in reality, it's no different from choosing between soft drinks. In other words, their "choices" are not their own, but rather someone else's and they are simply reacting to, external influences. Isn't it really just another form of imprisonment?

I don't think it's quite as trivial as soft drinks a lot of the time (although I'm sure there is imitation in every sleeping culture). People seek out different groups and identities because their "given" identity as a member of a particular subculture or tribe does not satisfy particular emotional, mental or otherwise human needs. Isn't that the same reason people join FOTCM? People who get involved in drug culture or piercing culture can often do so because well, at least they can acknowledge a lot of the pain and suffering they've experienced and find solace and security in dealing with it in this fashion. Uniqueness can be an antidote to not achieving high enough in their native hierarchies, which are often stratified due to social immobility or financial barriers and social connections/privilege. Subconsciously fighting emotional incest and other abuse is probably also a contributing factor. White supremacy groups appeal to desperately poor and disenfranchised whites because it allows them to possess some sort of innate self-esteem. Ditto for damaged people who fly into the arms of church authority to be "saved" and freed from uncertainty and anxiety in life.

A lot of these spontaneous solution don't normally address the psychosocial roots of the problems (to the extent that looking funny can even be considered a "problem"... Sometimes I think people just need to increase their Openess personality trait re: tattoos and whatnot.) I think it should be up to societal education and intervention to help people find the resources to be nourished enough within whatever subculture they are raised. Over time I think you'd see greater homogeneity of psychological health and less judging of others and partitioning of others into particular strata. Instead you'd see them treated as human more, or so I think.

 

[mkrnhr]

Following this "Je suis Charlie" meme on FB, I came to realize how binary some people can be. They do not check facts, they do not ask questions, they just follow the flow, whatever it is. It's a crowd of individuals.
It reminds me somehow of a conversation with a classmate I had a few years ago. I asked her why she was wearing a vampire attire all the time. Her answer was that it was to express her individuality and uniqueness. The paradox of belonging to a group which looks the same, where everybody buys the same clothes in the same shops didn't ring a bell. And me explaining that individuality and uniqueness was a matter of being, not one of looking either. It's like in that scene from The Life of Brian: "Yes, we are all individuals".

But from another point of view, the real issue with that identification, be it with Charlie Hebdo or with vampires or whatever, is what message one is sending to the universe, with which archetype one is aligning. And yet, the vampire look can be changed when the person matures a little or changes the internal psychological landscape. Some decisions are seemingly permanent, and in that respect it's kind of bizarre. Humans are basically characterized by the ability to project into the future, to run some basic conscious and subconscious simulations on how actual decisions may affect future outcomes. And yet some individuals seem to be lacking this basic characteristic for some reason. Going back to the issue of archetypes, many often you see young women having a ring in the nose. I'm sorry to say, but that makes me think of a cow. What did these women think when they decided to wear it is a mystery. When they are adolescent, one may suspect some strange hormonal effects, and yet, what are parents thinking in allowing that? But it's affecting adults too. Yesterday a lady in her fourties or fifties (not good with ages) had a big dragon tattoed in her back. Maybe some magazines say that's it's cool and makes you look younger, I don't know. There is the possibility of body painting, and that can be considered art, but the permanent thing is in-understandable, especially when the depictions are gruesome.

It might be argued that some forms of self-mutilation derive from cases of nonacceptance of the self and that most of them are external expressions of psychological distress. Given that, some extreme cases, especially those involving the skull, may perhaps be considered psychiatric cases.

The thing is, what is that pushes people to identify with such archetypes, corrupt and vulgar journalists in the case of the Charlie meme, vampires, cows, slaves, etc. ? IMHO, in some cases it could be ignorance and stupidity. In some other cases it could be some forms of superficial or more serious psychological issues. And maybe in some other cases it could be a reflection of the state of the psyche or its essence. It's just a possibility of course, but if it is true, then it might be important to consider what archetype we identify with, what message we send to the universe, and how to restore a more healthy psyche in case something went wrong. OSIT ATM

 

[Mal7]

The original inspiration for many body modifications often came I think from people wanting to reject mainstream values, and appropriating forms of body modification used by tribal cultures, e.g. the Amazon Indians who pierce their earlobes. This kind of appropriation could be criticized, as it is taking something from another culture which one does not really belong to. The intent could have been good though, for example it could have been done as a sign of respect for the values of that culture (such as having a lighter environmental footprint than Western culture, and living closer to nature).

Over time this original impetus could become less important, and people nowadays are just doing it for reasons of fashion, because their peer group are doing it and they want to fit in.

I think body modifications like piercings and tattoos have gained mainstream acceptance over the last few decades and are now seen as normal, or just fashion. I have heard for example that in the 1980s, dressing like a punk was enough cause for some people in mainstream society to shout abuse and throw bottles at you. Now dressing like a punk is just a fashion statement, like wearing a shirt supporting a particular football team.

I am not sure this represents a decline in the level morality and increasing barbarism though. Perhaps it is just an outcome of the faster spread of ideas or memes across the globe throughout society.

Before judging a bodily modification as abnormal, we should OSIT remember the malleability of what different cultures perceive as being normal. For example, if you were a traditional Apa Tani woman from the Apa Tani valley in Arunachal Pradesh, India, the rest of your tribe would probably think you were abnormal if you didn't have nostril plugs.

[Picture Credit: The Seven Sisters of India: Tribal Worlds between Tibet and Burma. Stirn, Aglaja & Peter van Ham. Munich: Prestel, 2000.]

 

[Renaissance]

I've been thinking that subcultures in general appear to be particularly susceptible to pathology and ponerization. That not to say that our primary culture isn't also ponerized, but that the more extreme and purposeful separation from others may do additional harm (particularly with regard to aligning with the archetypes previously mentioned). It seems there is power in the human group and I think these subcultures move away from that. I think it's also interesting that subcultures are a uniquely Western phenomenon. Perhaps on some level some people chose to 'belong' to such groups out of a rejection of the pathology of the West, but then when you look at many of these subcultures it's not really a rejection of pathology but a rejection of being human (i.e. being a vampire, slave/farm animal, witch, some fantasy or comic book figure, etc). It's like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Instead of escaping the ugliness of the West, they actually become more representative of it's nature. In a way these groups 'check out' of society and avoid the responsibility that comes with being a member of their communities. I think in Work terms that would relate to being a good obyvatel.

 

[Laura]

I've speculated before that extreme (even some not-so-extreme) body modifications began as a way to emulate the "overlords" in some sense. Things like scarification, cranial deformation and circumcision come immediately to mind. Think of cranial deformation as an attempt to emulate individuals such as those represented by the Ica skulls who very well may have some kind of genetic experiment with reptilian genes. It was a little tongue in cheek when I suggested that circumcision was designed to emulate reptilian penises, but maybe it's not so humorous? What kinds of influences come from 4D in dreams and "inspiration"? Who would ever have thought of whacking the peepee of guys as a "token of the covenant"?! You give me the end of your penis and I'll be your god"! Sheesh!

I wrote in The Wave, Chapter 49: Frequency Resonance Vibration

And, while I have your ear: what’s up with the way kids dress nowadays? Well, it’s not even just kids – it’s ubiquitous! It seems that human beings, under the influence of Madison Avenue and the motivation masters of greed and degradation, get up real early in the morning in order to figure out how to dress themselves, arrange their hair, and decorate their bodies in as repulsive a way as possible!

I am continuously revolted by clerks in stores with multiply pierced body parts, tattoos that look more like dirt smudges or bruises than art, hair that looks like it was arranged by Attila the Hun or Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor; make-up that looks like it was applied by Vlad the Impaler. Young people wear clothing that makes them look like rejects from the Oklahoma dust bowl days. Chains and chunks of metal clank from every part of their person as they saunter about displaying their “cool” to their peers, looking more like a combination of an ancient Mongol warrior and survivor of a death camp than anything else.

And it’s not what they claim – personal expression – because it is more of a uniform than anything else! The demand to have the same look, the same brand of clothing, the same body parts pierced, or to think of new and more bizarre ways to do it, is overwhelming every parent I know. I have had to draw the line in my own house, telling my kids that they won’t eat at my table if the way they look makes my stomach churn!

Who or what is inspiring these manifestations of purely barbaric behavior? Who is turning humanity into beings who accept what used to be the trappings of slavery as if it were the latest style? And what’s more, to convince them that it is “expressive” or “attractive?” What, in the name of God, is going on when physical self-mutilation and self-defacement, mind-numbing and body-jarring sounds, and things that are just plain ugly are considered normal?! And, not just normal, but attractive, for God’s sake!

Those who have bought into the New Age bonanza seem to have shut off their minds and the effect on their offspring is frightening. They have become part of a reality that is ripe for being taken over by the first “strong man” who comes along with “signs and wonders.”

However, based on the information from the Cs, we now have some idea that the fourth density (equivalent to the fifth dimension in mathematical terms), is a para-physical realm of archetypes, and that these archetypal groupings may be the arbiters of human, societal, and national interactions as conceived, and created by mass thought or vice versa! We may merely be the actors in an archetypal play that is written, cast, directed and produced from some other layer of reality. It may be that there are set pieces we each play, and perhaps these cumulative events of humans in this world are the energies that express the balance or imbalance of forces or beings at higher levels.

When I ask WHO or WHAT is inspiring such manifestations of rejection of the natural body, I think we can ask the same question of primitive cultures that consider such things to be beautiful: WHO - or WHAT - inspired them to think that???

 

[Gawan]

But from another point of view, the real issue with that identification, be it with Charlie Hebdo or with vampires or whatever, is what message one is sending to the universe, with which archetype one is aligning. And yet, the vampire look can be changed when the person matures a little or changes the internal psychological landscape. Some decisions are seemingly permanent, and in that respect it's kind of bizarre. Humans are basically characterized by the ability to project into the future, to run some basic conscious and subconscious simulations on how actual decisions may affect future outcomes. And yet some individuals seem to be lacking this basic characteristic for some reason. Going back to the issue of archetypes, many often you see young women having a ring in the nose. I'm sorry to say, but that makes me think of a cow. What did these women think when they decided to wear it is a mystery. When they are adolescent, one may suspect some strange hormonal effects, and yet, what are parents thinking in allowing that? But it's affecting adults too. Yesterday a lady in her fourties or fifties (not good with ages) had a big dragon tattoed in her back. Maybe some magazines say that's it's cool and makes you look younger, I don't know. There is the possibility of body painting, and that can be considered art, but the permanent thing is in-understandable, especially when the depictions are gruesome.

Maybe many (if not all?) are just masochistic and like to get hurt or to withdraw from reality with such self-mutilations? In this connection of masochism somehow Erich Fromm comes to mind:

The frightened individual seeks for somebody or something to tie his self to; he cannot bear to his own individual self any longer, and he tries frantically to get rid of it and to feel security again by the elimination of this burden of the self. Masochism is one way toward this goal. The different forms which the masochistic strivings assume have one aim: to get rid of the individual self, to lose oneself; in other words, to get rid of the burden of freedom.

It sounds like making slaves of them, since the many chains and rings.

 

[Altair]

I've speculated before that extreme (even some not-so-extreme) body modifications began as a way to emulate the "overlords" in some sense. Things like scarification, cranial deformation and circumcision come immediately to mind. Think of cranial deformation as an attempt to emulate individuals such as those represented by the Ica skulls who very well may have some kind of genetic experiment with reptilian genes. It was a little tongue in cheek when I suggested that circumcision was designed to emulate reptilian penises, but maybe it's not so humorous? What kinds of influences come from 4D in dreams and "inspiration"? Who would ever have thought of whacking the peepee of guys as a "token of the covenant"?! You give me the end of your penis and I'll be your god"! Sheesh!

I wrote in The Wave, Chapter 49: Frequency Resonance Vibration

And, while I have your ear: what’s up with the way kids dress nowadays? Well, it’s not even just kids – it’s ubiquitous! It seems that human beings, under the influence of Madison Avenue and the motivation masters of greed and degradation, get up real early in the morning in order to figure out how to dress themselves, arrange their hair, and decorate their bodies in as repulsive a way as possible!

I am continuously revolted by clerks in stores with multiply pierced body parts, tattoos that look more like dirt smudges or bruises than art, hair that looks like it was arranged by Attila the Hun or Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor; make-up that looks like it was applied by Vlad the Impaler. Young people wear clothing that makes them look like rejects from the Oklahoma dust bowl days. Chains and chunks of metal clank from every part of their person as they saunter about displaying their “cool” to their peers, looking more like a combination of an ancient Mongol warrior and survivor of a death camp than anything else.

And it’s not what they claim – personal expression – because it is more of a uniform than anything else! The demand to have the same look, the same brand of clothing, the same body parts pierced, or to think of new and more bizarre ways to do it, is overwhelming every parent I know. I have had to draw the line in my own house, telling my kids that they won’t eat at my table if the way they look makes my stomach churn!

Who or what is inspiring these manifestations of purely barbaric behavior? Who is turning humanity into beings who accept what used to be the trappings of slavery as if it were the latest style? And what’s more, to convince them that it is “expressive” or “attractive?” What, in the name of God, is going on when physical self-mutilation and self-defacement, mind-numbing and body-jarring sounds, and things that are just plain ugly are considered normal?! And, not just normal, but attractive, for God’s sake!

Those who have bought into the New Age bonanza seem to have shut off their minds and the effect on their offspring is frightening. They have become part of a reality that is ripe for being taken over by the first “strong man” who comes along with “signs and wonders.”

However, based on the information from the Cs, we now have some idea that the fourth density (equivalent to the fifth dimension in mathematical terms), is a para-physical realm of archetypes, and that these archetypal groupings may be the arbiters of human, societal, and national interactions as conceived, and created by mass thought or vice versa! We may merely be the actors in an archetypal play that is written, cast, directed and produced from some other layer of reality. It may be that there are set pieces we each play, and perhaps these cumulative events of humans in this world are the energies that express the balance or imbalance of forces or beings at higher levels.

When I ask WHO or WHAT is inspiring such manifestations of rejection of the natural body, I think we can ask the same question of primitive cultures that consider such things to be beautiful: WHO - or WHAT - inspired them to think that???

Jung believed that primitive cultures are closer to some Archetypes (divine names of God?) and live them more consciously that "modern" (particularly western) cultures do. So can it just be a manifestation of some "ugly" divine names in our density?

 

[Laura]

Jung believed that primitive cultures are closer to some Archetypes (divine names of God?) and live them more consciously that "modern" (particularly western) cultures do. So can it just be a manifestation of some "ugly" divine names in our density?

I think that might be a reasonable explanation. And maybe at the present time, we are in a period of a "thinning of the veil" so that such things manifest more strongly and widely even within so-called civilized cultures. I mean, geeze! That so many young people exhibit in their bodies the material representation of the psychopathic reality is just stunning. Think about it: psychopaths wear a mask of sanity, so on the outside, they are "more than perfect", as Cleckley would have put it; but on the inside, they would be pierced all over, defacing the natural body, wearing metal balls in every imaginable orifice, chains, disgusting tattoos, and so on. The spiky hair of barbarian warriors or the stringy, limp hair of the malnourished is another aspect.

I mean, REALLY! What the heck is going?!

 

[Arwenn]

Jung believed that primitive cultures are closer to some Archetypes (divine names of God?) and live them more consciously that "modern" (particularly western) cultures do. So can it just be a manifestation of some "ugly" divine names in our density?

I think that might be a reasonable explanation. And maybe at the present time, we are in a period of a "thinning of the veil" so that such things manifest more strongly and widely even within so-called civilized cultures. I mean, geeze! That so many young people exhibit in their bodies the material representation of the psychopathic reality is just stunning. Think about it: psychopaths wear a mask of sanity, so on the outside, they are "more than perfect", as Cleckley would have put it; but on the inside, they would be pierced all over, defacing the natural body, wearing metal balls in every imaginable orifice, chains, disgusting tattoos, and so on. The spiky hair of barbarian warriors or the stringy, limp hair of the malnourished is another aspect.

I mean, REALLY! What the heck is going?!

Try raising teenagers in these crazy times! It seems that the need to belong and be accepted is never so strong as when you're teenager. And in our totally screwed up ponerized sexualised society, it's super tricky navigating these times as a parent. Not only is their music filled with explicit lyrics, sex violence and drugs, the whole Western culture surrounding kids is about sex, drugs, violence and popularity based on superficial materialism, rather than basic human values and morals. Sheesh!

 

[SeekinTruth]

Yeah, I think the whole self expression thing doesn't make sense when considering they are all expressing the same pathological ugliness. The political West's greatest weapon is the herding of dumbed down populations and their advanced methods of manipulation. The scariest thing is how well it all works. I think this is a weapon even more powerful than the financial/monetary system.

We are living in times where there will be an increased pressure to choose between Service to Self and Service to Others ideals - and it will become harder and harder to try to avoid an explicit choice (as so many have been doing). That's how it's looking to me.

By the way, I haven't had time to read the France false flag thread yet, but I've read everything on SOTT about it early in the mornings last couple of days. This is going to be another big test as far as who can see through the BS and who aligns with these totally evil powers - the oligarchic pathological Empire that kills, maims, rapes, plunders, tortures, and terrorizes humanity. It's a real time of separating the chaff from the wheat, so to speak.

 

[Oxajil]

A lot of these spontaneous solution don't normally address the psychosocial roots of the problems (to the extent that looking funny can even be considered a "problem"... Sometimes I think people just need to increase their Openess personality trait re: tattoos and whatnot.)

We may have been programmed to think that "accepting" people no matter how they present themselves is the "right" thing to do, but at what point should we draw the line and share our thoughts as to what is normal and clearly abnormal? Would increasing our ''openness personality trait'' towards these things not only add fuel to the fire? If we would be open to welcome such behavior, we would basically say that mutilating the self is a good thing. That wouldn't help them, or us. I also wouldn't say that by engaging in such acts (in an extreme manner), they are acknowledging their pain or suffering, it's actually the opposite of what someone would do if they would truly acknowledge them responsibly. Fwiw.

 

[Laura]

A lot of these spontaneous solution don't normally address the psychosocial roots of the problems (to the extent that looking funny can even be considered a "problem"... Sometimes I think people just need to increase their Openess personality trait re: tattoos and whatnot.)

We may have been programmed to think that "accepting" people no matter how they present themselves is the "right" thing to do, but at what point should we draw the line and share our thoughts as to what is normal and clearly abnormal? Would increasing our ''openness personality trait'' towards these things not only add fuel to the fire? If we would be open to welcome such behavior, we would basically say that mutilating the self is a good thing. That wouldn't help them, or us. I also wouldn't say that by engaging in such acts (in an extreme manner), they are acknowledging their pain or suffering, it's actually the opposite of what someone would do if they would truly acknowledge them responsibly. Fwiw.

Yeah. Why don't we just increase our openness to psychopaths!

 

[theos]

Jung believed that primitive cultures are closer to some Archetypes (divine names of God?) and live them more consciously that "modern" (particularly western) cultures do. So can it just be a manifestation of some "ugly" divine names in our density?

I think that might be a reasonable explanation. And maybe at the present time, we are in a period of a "thinning of the veil" so that such things manifest more strongly and widely even within so-called civilized cultures. I mean, geeze! That so many young people exhibit in their bodies the material representation of the psychopathic reality is just stunning. Think about it: psychopaths wear a mask of sanity, so on the outside, they are "more than perfect", as Cleckley would have put it; but on the inside, they would be pierced all over, defacing the natural body, wearing metal balls in every imaginable orifice, chains, disgusting tattoos, and so on. The spiky hair of barbarian warriors or the stringy, limp hair of the malnourished is another aspect.

I mean, REALLY! What the heck is going?!

Good point. The natural human inclination is to avoid having pain inflicted upon their bodies. I do think that these followers of extreme body modification could be channeling or manifesting some of the ugly names of god (i.e. some evil presence that represents torture and desecration of human flesh?) This brings to mind horror films and my thought that they are just representations of some evil that likes murder and torture and likes to see humanity in a state of abject fear. In a way, I would equate these extreme body modifiers as horror movie characters.

There are some things that are objectively ugly and unpleasant and cause regular people to recoil when first being presented with those things. It takes a lot of time and exposure to desensitize a person to such unpleasantness. But what is the point of desensitizing yourself to it? Some things are truly ugly no matter if they are a part of someone's culture or subculture.