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Gertrudes
Guest
Myrddin Awyr said:
Yeah, this type of insecurity towards how others perceive us seems to be tied in with being made extremely self conscious when very young, by negative pressure from family and/or peers.
Are other people REALLY looking at you?
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
Yeah, this type of insecurity towards how others perceive us seems to be tied in with being made extremely self conscious when very young, by negative pressure from family and/or peers.
Gertrudes said:
Maybe such things happen because we are simply unaware of how the body is positioned, what expression we are making with our faces etc. at certain moments (probably most of the time, due to our mechanicalness). You can easily confuse someone when you say one thing, but your body language or expression says a whole other thing. Therefore I think being aware of your body etc., and being able to communicate in a clear way as to take out any misunderstandings would be ideal. In other words, just as there is verbal communication, there is also non-verbal communication and both are equally important in order to be able to ''connect/make clear contact'' with others.
I'm having a bit trouble understanding this sentence: ''our inner motivations may, perhaps, be part of this sort of energetic web to which we (normal human beings) are connected'', may I ask if you could elaborate a little on this?
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Oxajil said:
Sure, sorry that it was confusing.
Here's what I meant: Imagine a web, like a spider's web, connecting us all. Through the web's strings we are sending out energetic impulses from our thoughts, feelings and sensations, which will be received by all others connected to the web. Each of us will sense those impulses, and each of us will have the ability to influence the web by sending out our own impulses. Hope this makes more sense!
EmeraldHope
The Living Force
Gertrudes said:
If i am not mistaken. some teachings, refer to that as the etheric web, and it is those energies that contribute to the collective unconscious.Now whether that is exactly accurate or not, i am not sure, as most of where i got these concepts from is Stuart Wilde and were it not for Laura he would have led me off of a cliff in a couple of areas. But since there is always truth mixed with lies, thought i would mention it .
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
This is a very common problem for me, and caused great anxiety. To handle it I used to explain to myself that those feelings were just projections of my own shadow material onto others, to use Jungian terminology. My critical, harsh, and abusive mental tendencies are what seems to keep the shadow alive. Some days are better than others, so maybe it could be inner emotional issues manifesting themselves as the fear-based thinking. Now, with G's system, I like to take the approach of being in the intellectual center and thinking with a hammer when I feel affected by these issues. I feel that some good hard thinking really helps with the social problems, not to mention every other problem.
theos
The Living Force
Thanks for posting this info, Laura.
This reminds me of a time when I was smacked in the face with my own self-importance. I'd quit my job a few years ago and was talking to a friend about a funeral we were both going to attend. I said to him not to mention to anyone that I was unemployed at the moment. He said, "Ya know, I don't think anyone really cares." I paused and had to laugh. I told him that he was sooo correct. Here I was going to a funeral and my main concern was whether someone knew I had a job or not. Jeez! I think about this when I need a self importance reminder.
This reminds me of a time when I was smacked in the face with my own self-importance. I'd quit my job a few years ago and was talking to a friend about a funeral we were both going to attend. I said to him not to mention to anyone that I was unemployed at the moment. He said, "Ya know, I don't think anyone really cares." I paused and had to laugh. I told him that he was sooo correct. Here I was going to a funeral and my main concern was whether someone knew I had a job or not. Jeez! I think about this when I need a self importance reminder.
Buddy
The Living Force
EmeraldHope said:
I feel similarly and the representation I like for "connectedness" uses an "Omega" symbol. To me, the 'head' shape represents "actualized part of 'object'" (including a person) and openness at bottom represents blended connection with currently non-actual, yet limitless possibilities! Of course, that's a 2 dimensional picture, but if it's visualized in 3 dimensions, then we might see all reality around us from a quantum perspective!
cubbex
The Living Force
The problem is not if people look at you, but what they think of you.
It happens that we tend to describe the person even before knowing them, just by their looks... sometimes you surprise yourself knowing such interesting people and sometimes well
I think Ouspensky talks about this, he says that over consideration is a mechanic aspect of the man and that he needs to stop it.
As I remember, I think it was gurdjy? who said to do the opposite of what our machine doesn't like. So if you don't like to give your age just give it away to everyone, or maybe not there's having respect to ourselves and
I have to mention that there's people that without caring or caring about, they are like magnets, and they have a big presence you know, you kinda recognize them by their particular essence the leave on the air. I've read Gurdjieff had that kind of presence, and I think it was necessary to be one of the best teachers the world had, I even read he had telepathy on <<Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am">> (page 25).
And for example, there are some people that maybe they have some kind of ability of getting attention because perhaps, if they use correctly that ability they could teach very well. I was too afraid too of being under the eye and I was always under the eye indeed, then I just said ok if I entertain people let's do it well and actually in that way is easy to make lol everyone.
It happens that we tend to describe the person even before knowing them, just by their looks... sometimes you surprise yourself knowing such interesting people and sometimes well
Laura said:
I think Ouspensky talks about this, he says that over consideration is a mechanic aspect of the man and that he needs to stop it.
mabar said:
As I remember, I think it was gurdjy? who said to do the opposite of what our machine doesn't like. So if you don't like to give your age just give it away to everyone, or maybe not there's having respect to ourselves and
I have to mention that there's people that without caring or caring about, they are like magnets, and they have a big presence you know, you kinda recognize them by their particular essence the leave on the air. I've read Gurdjieff had that kind of presence, and I think it was necessary to be one of the best teachers the world had, I even read he had telepathy on <<Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am">> (page 25).
And for example, there are some people that maybe they have some kind of ability of getting attention because perhaps, if they use correctly that ability they could teach very well. I was too afraid too of being under the eye and I was always under the eye indeed, then I just said ok if I entertain people let's do it well and actually in that way is easy to make lol everyone.
Dear me, I don't think I've ever it's ever been so relieving to feel like such an idiot! 
It's like another level for me; I've gotten to the point where I notice almost everyone around me (though that's partly because I taught myself to be more observant) and while I don't reeeally worry about my looks so much as I used to, I instead worry about them noticing me noticing them! I've even become quite adept at being "unnoticeable", which is mainly by "staring into space on a fixed point" while "looking" at the subject in my peripheral vision (this doesn't quite explain the experience of it though, because I'm still vividly aware that my eye-focus is on what it's on and have the full awareness of what I'm "really looking at" in low-res, and if you're wondering, it does indeed seem to reduce "look back" phenomenon). Because of these defences, so to speak, that I've put in place, which I do think are useful in their own right if used strategically, I'm pretty comfortable most of the time, but still, just the thought of initiating a conversation out of the blue makes my mind recoil in on itself. Scary stuff, as I read this back to myself. Then again, comfort and acceptance are two very different things.
Laura's comment about others being relieved that someone came over to talk to them hit the mark especially because deep down, that's exactly how I feel ALL THE TIME!! What a disservice it is of me to all the others that feel similar in some way to NOT put the silly thoughts and feelings away and at least try, not to mention how selfishly "alone" I allow myself to feel because "no one wants to talk to me" since they "obviously have enough or good enough friends already". And yet, the evidence to the contrary, that I'm not alone in that regard, is so blindingly obvious, so well hidden in plain sight by one simple fact: by and large, no one is talking to anyone else!
Going to make some serious effort to interact and converse with others that I normally wouldn't, within reason of course, from now on to break the hold this program has on me. I really gotta start taking more of my Work beyond the theory!
P.S. Ironically, the news line at the top right says, as I type, "Look cool, support Cassiopaea.org: Revolt!"
It's like another level for me; I've gotten to the point where I notice almost everyone around me (though that's partly because I taught myself to be more observant) and while I don't reeeally worry about my looks so much as I used to, I instead worry about them noticing me noticing them! I've even become quite adept at being "unnoticeable", which is mainly by "staring into space on a fixed point" while "looking" at the subject in my peripheral vision (this doesn't quite explain the experience of it though, because I'm still vividly aware that my eye-focus is on what it's on and have the full awareness of what I'm "really looking at" in low-res, and if you're wondering, it does indeed seem to reduce "look back" phenomenon). Because of these defences, so to speak, that I've put in place, which I do think are useful in their own right if used strategically, I'm pretty comfortable most of the time, but still, just the thought of initiating a conversation out of the blue makes my mind recoil in on itself. Scary stuff, as I read this back to myself. Then again, comfort and acceptance are two very different things.
Laura's comment about others being relieved that someone came over to talk to them hit the mark especially because deep down, that's exactly how I feel ALL THE TIME!! What a disservice it is of me to all the others that feel similar in some way to NOT put the silly thoughts and feelings away and at least try, not to mention how selfishly "alone" I allow myself to feel because "no one wants to talk to me" since they "obviously have enough or good enough friends already". And yet, the evidence to the contrary, that I'm not alone in that regard, is so blindingly obvious, so well hidden in plain sight by one simple fact: by and large, no one is talking to anyone else!
Going to make some serious effort to interact and converse with others that I normally wouldn't, within reason of course, from now on to break the hold this program has on me. I really gotta start taking more of my Work beyond the theory!
P.S. Ironically, the news line at the top right says, as I type, "Look cool, support Cassiopaea.org: Revolt!"
Eva
Jedi
I wonder if the results of this study would differ if it was held in different countries. I think that different peoples, brought up under different standards would act in varied ways.
In my country it's the norm for people to criticise everything around them, from the looks of a passer-by to what the prime minister said last night.
It's not unusual to see people pointing and commenting or laughing at whatever draws their attention, whether that's an object they're pointing at or a human being that can hear them, without trying to mask that behaviour.
When I was in high school and beyond I was a prisoner to this mentality. I was brought up to look "perfect". I would get up every day 2 hours earlier so that I could wash and style my hair before going to school. What a waste of time and energy, right ? Well, in the end of high school one of my teachers decided that we should hold a "who has the best hair" contest and I won. In this way a faulty mentality is propagated and strengthened. I was actually rewarded for treating myself like a decorative object in such a compulsive way, by a well-meaning teacher nonetheless.
It's been years that I am over that hopeless programming now. I tried different techniques but the only thing that really worked was to stop judging others. When, through observing my thoughts, I was able to look around me and see pure diversity, putting aside standards and rigid concepts of beauty and ugliness, I became free of the fear of criticism.
What I had noticed back then in myself and then recognised in others is that usually people who will overreact in enthusiasm about something "beautiful" they see are those that will judge the harshest the next thing they notice that doesn't live up to their standards. It took a while to recognise that.
Now I observe this dynamic at my work place. There are a couple of women that will notice and openly criticise everyone's looks and my manager will criticise everyone's way of thinking. It's usually done in a positive way by each of them, although not always, yet it still seems like a waste of time, and even a sort of emotional hook. I have caught myself sometimes replying in likewise manner through imitation and then instantly feeling bad. If I am led to reply to a compliment with another it's like stealing the other person of the whole of their potential, by focusing on a trivial, unstable and worthless little detail of themselves.
I wonder if a nation's maturity age is also reflected in how much time their people spend looking at trivialities around them and judging them, oblivious to their subject's feelings like a child getting acquainted with their environment would do.
In my country it's the norm for people to criticise everything around them, from the looks of a passer-by to what the prime minister said last night.
It's not unusual to see people pointing and commenting or laughing at whatever draws their attention, whether that's an object they're pointing at or a human being that can hear them, without trying to mask that behaviour.
When I was in high school and beyond I was a prisoner to this mentality. I was brought up to look "perfect". I would get up every day 2 hours earlier so that I could wash and style my hair before going to school. What a waste of time and energy, right ? Well, in the end of high school one of my teachers decided that we should hold a "who has the best hair" contest and I won. In this way a faulty mentality is propagated and strengthened. I was actually rewarded for treating myself like a decorative object in such a compulsive way, by a well-meaning teacher nonetheless.
It's been years that I am over that hopeless programming now. I tried different techniques but the only thing that really worked was to stop judging others. When, through observing my thoughts, I was able to look around me and see pure diversity, putting aside standards and rigid concepts of beauty and ugliness, I became free of the fear of criticism.
What I had noticed back then in myself and then recognised in others is that usually people who will overreact in enthusiasm about something "beautiful" they see are those that will judge the harshest the next thing they notice that doesn't live up to their standards. It took a while to recognise that.
Now I observe this dynamic at my work place. There are a couple of women that will notice and openly criticise everyone's looks and my manager will criticise everyone's way of thinking. It's usually done in a positive way by each of them, although not always, yet it still seems like a waste of time, and even a sort of emotional hook. I have caught myself sometimes replying in likewise manner through imitation and then instantly feeling bad. If I am led to reply to a compliment with another it's like stealing the other person of the whole of their potential, by focusing on a trivial, unstable and worthless little detail of themselves.
I wonder if a nation's maturity age is also reflected in how much time their people spend looking at trivialities around them and judging them, oblivious to their subject's feelings like a child getting acquainted with their environment would do.
Just a couple of thoughts...
I got bullied at school - for my looks, big nose, choice of friends, etc. I didn't let it bother me too much until one day I snapped, had a little fight with a couple of lads and got them both on the ground. I kind of "won" and the bullying calmed down.
Around this time, I'd discovered punk rock - which to me, felt empowering. So I decided to spike my hair, wore an army jacket and bought myself a pink bag which I wrote band names all over. It seemed to do the trick (not that this is advice to anybody) but it was as though by making your differences obvious, they become less of an issue. You no longer appear to be "hiding" something. Maybe there's an element of subconscious respect from "trendies?" I don't know. And possibily an element of freedom for the individual.
As it happens, it was a good way to reach other likeminded people in my school and later college - not simply because we dressed a bit funny, but because we shared a mind-set to some extent, loved music, felt "different" and not just in looks, etc.
But yeah, I think people generally don't notice many details about physical appearances. Maybe some do. I don't, I try observe body language though, and how people carry themselves.
When I started this job around 8 months ago (I work in a college), I had long hair. I cut it all off after a month because I felt a bit scruffy and I actually like this job, so wanted to make an effort. Anyway, I was making a tea in the staffroom, and this teacher comes up and goes "You look so different without your beard!" I replied "Oh... erm... I didn't have a beard!" She goes "Oh wait, sorry, it was a moustache ... sorry" I replied "No, I had long hair... never been one for facial hair!" She was a bit embarrassed and so was I to be honest :D
I got bullied at school - for my looks, big nose, choice of friends, etc. I didn't let it bother me too much until one day I snapped, had a little fight with a couple of lads and got them both on the ground. I kind of "won" and the bullying calmed down.
Around this time, I'd discovered punk rock - which to me, felt empowering. So I decided to spike my hair, wore an army jacket and bought myself a pink bag which I wrote band names all over. It seemed to do the trick (not that this is advice to anybody) but it was as though by making your differences obvious, they become less of an issue. You no longer appear to be "hiding" something. Maybe there's an element of subconscious respect from "trendies?" I don't know. And possibily an element of freedom for the individual.
As it happens, it was a good way to reach other likeminded people in my school and later college - not simply because we dressed a bit funny, but because we shared a mind-set to some extent, loved music, felt "different" and not just in looks, etc.
But yeah, I think people generally don't notice many details about physical appearances. Maybe some do. I don't, I try observe body language though, and how people carry themselves.
When I started this job around 8 months ago (I work in a college), I had long hair. I cut it all off after a month because I felt a bit scruffy and I actually like this job, so wanted to make an effort. Anyway, I was making a tea in the staffroom, and this teacher comes up and goes "You look so different without your beard!" I replied "Oh... erm... I didn't have a beard!" She goes "Oh wait, sorry, it was a moustache ... sorry" I replied "No, I had long hair... never been one for facial hair!" She was a bit embarrassed and so was I to be honest :D
Wow, this certainly applies to me. I became an "outcast" from first grade on, for reasons I'm currently trying to figure out (reading The Narcissistic Family now - insight!), and these days I'm very self-conscious - an ironic wording, more like self-focused - both at home and when I'm in town or in social situations. I think it's been valuable to read this thread, and I'll try to stop worrying so much and figure out if I've been judging others and stop it if so.
One thought that occurred to me while reading is: what about psychopaths? Are they immune to the spotlight effect because of their unemotionality?
EDIT: I forgot to mention that's it's also resulted in me being very "self-conscious" on this forum, making it very hard to network and take criticism (or causes me to imagine criticism). For instance, I've made posts which got no responses, and then got really worried about WHY - I realize that in all likelihood it doesn't mean much of anything, but sometimes I worry. Hopefully I can resolve these issues. Are posts like this better kept in The Swamp?
One thought that occurred to me while reading is: what about psychopaths? Are they immune to the spotlight effect because of their unemotionality?
EDIT: I forgot to mention that's it's also resulted in me being very "self-conscious" on this forum, making it very hard to network and take criticism (or causes me to imagine criticism). For instance, I've made posts which got no responses, and then got really worried about WHY - I realize that in all likelihood it doesn't mean much of anything, but sometimes I worry. Hopefully I can resolve these issues. Are posts like this better kept in The Swamp?
obyvatel
The Living Force
HowToBe said:
Hi HowToBe,
I think what you experience regarding forum interaction is shared by others as well. Sometimes, the reason for not getting a response could be that people agree with the post in question and do not have much to add. If your intent is to start a discussion, posing questions is a good way to invite responses.
At a deeper level, this anxiety or worry about what others might feel or do perhaps stems from a fundamental insecurity about ourselves. We did not receive unconditional acceptance in childhood for who we are - consequently we go about life constantly seeking validation from the world and get angry or worried when we do not get it. It is really an unnecessary burden to carry around which drains our energy.
You mentioned in another post that you are reading "Narcissistic Family" - I found that book quite helpful for exploring this dynamic. I think we need to work on becoming the parents to ourselves that we wished we had and deal with the insecurity with a 2-fold approach. On the one hand we accept our past and present and thereby our wounded child self without wishing they were something other than what they are and practice self-compassion. On the other hand, we feed the adult side by repeatedly telling ourselves that we have little control over what others say or do. So to pin our hopes of well-being on others' opinion of us, when in most cases in the outside world people are all occupied with their own issues and do not care much about us anyway, is not a rational response. Instead, we can try to set internal goals for our well-being which we can meet.
In the forum, we get out what we tend to put in. For forum interaction, you could set your goal to participate regularly, ask questions, provide support and feedback to others in spite of the worries that you have. You may find that your fears and worries would gradually diminish.
[quote author=HowToBe]
Are posts like this better kept in The Swamp?
[/quote]
If you wish to discuss personal details which you do not want to have in the open to all public section of the forum, then you can start a thread in the swamp. This post is fine where it is imo.
fwiw
I finished "The Narcissistic Family", and it has been amazing to read. It has given me some confidence that I didn't have before about my potential in general, which is helping me to take actions that could improve my circumstances and thus my ability to contribute here. I was able to relate to very much of the book. There were "aha!" moments nearly continually as I was reading, and I think I could feel some powerful rewiring happening unconsciously as I read.
I agree about becoming "our own parents". Accepting my lack of control over others while taking up my responsibility for myself and my effects on others is part of my current struggle. Reading that book has helped me to see how very many of my of my actions and communications are attempts to manipulate others or situations to get approval or avoid criticism.
I agree about becoming "our own parents". Accepting my lack of control over others while taking up my responsibility for myself and my effects on others is part of my current struggle. Reading that book has helped me to see how very many of my of my actions and communications are attempts to manipulate others or situations to get approval or avoid criticism.
This, I think, is a topic for a swamp post, because I was trying to do this before and my emotional response sort of "ejected" me from the forum for a few months! This is something I really need to understand about myself so that I don't continue to "betray myself" in this manner. I think part of it had to do with "shoulds/shouldn'ts" as well as "all or nothing" type thinking. I'm also reading "Redirect" right now, and that has combined with "The Narcissistic Family" (TNF) to show me that the "shoulds" I have been trying to use are useless for motivating myself. By doing or trying to get myself to do something because "I should" (in TNF's terms, "I don't want to, but they want me to"), I accept the self-narrative that I do not have the "goodness" or desire in me to do that thing of my own choice, and I also assume unconditionally that it is indeed the right thing to do, regardless of any new information that may enter the picture. I am anticipating a reward of some kind (or the avoidance of a "punishment"), and the unconscious narrative is that I am doing it for the reward and not because it is what I choose to do or because I have that inclination/desire inside of me. The "shoulds" therefore make me inflexible and unaccepting of myself and reality around me. So even if I succeed in doing what I "should" and getting the reward, I have betrayed myself and I still lose motivation. This has helped me to see at least in part, I think, what anticipation really is and why it is harmful if one wishes to be STO.obyvatel said:
