Are You Getting Enough Sleep? Sleeping properly?

Mrs Peel said:
I also seem to awake too early. I'm in bed before or by 10 PM. Usually wake once to use the bathroom, then go back to sleep, and sleep till about an hour before the alarm goes off (roughly guessing because I won't look at the time cause then I will just lay there and count the minutes till I need to get up) and can't fall back to a proper sleep.

A really interesting thing I've found with sleeping in complete darkness is that it is timeless. Actually this is a little difficult to put into words. I set the alarm and then don't look at it until it goes off in the morning. When I wake up in the night I sometimes try to figure out what the time might be and have to give up. I think that because the darkness is constant, with no cues as to time, it allows – encourages, even - one to let go of time, if that makes sense. The darkness feels almost eternal or infinite. It's quite a strange sensation – on the one hand, knowing that time is passing, but in bed in my totally dark room, I feel somehow outside of time.
 
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
It's quite a strange sensation – on the one hand, knowing that time is passing, but in bed in my totally dark room, I feel somehow outside of time.

FWIW, I think you've summed it up quite well, Endymion. I noticed I look forward to going to bed, because it feels at times like I'm zoning out rather than sleeping (even though I am sleeping). I feel 'unplugged' (a feeling I have when I zone out, which is rarer and rarer). I used to drag my feet and find excuses not to go to bed because it meant that the day was over (and that I had not done all I wanted to do, etc.). It's like sleeping no longer feels like a waste of time!
 
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
It's quite a strange sensation – on the one hand, knowing that time is passing, but in bed in my totally dark room, I feel somehow outside of time.

FWIW, I think you've summed it up quite well, Endymion. I noticed I look forward to going to bed, because it feels at times like I'm zoning out rather than sleeping (even though I am sleeping). I feel 'unplugged' (a feeling I have when I zone out, which is rarer and rarer). I used to drag my feet and find excuses not to go to bed because it meant that the day was over (and that I had not done all I wanted to do, etc.). It's like sleeping no longer feels like a waste of time!

It seems timeless to me too. I don't wake up every night to use the bathroom so the only way I can tell if it's morningtime is if my cat come into the bathroom while I'm in there. If it's the middle of the night he stays away.

I feel like I'm "power sleeping" because my sleep is so deep and restful. (Sometimes I wake up and if I still feel like I want to sleep more I'll do the POTS and go back to sleep.) I don't feel groggy or yawn-y when I wake up.
 
This is exactly the way I feel! Timelessness and even location-less. Being that I can't recognize anything in the room, I feel I could be 'sleeping in any place on earth in any time.' But then again I do sort of 'day dream' before I go to sleep.

I love my cave. Going to bed at night used to be a test in procrastination. Now I look forward to it. My daughters were against the idea of a cave in their room, but me and my son 'cave sleep' now, and he doesn't mind at all. He is young enough for adjustments I suppose. Hopefully eventually when the girls get over that pesky fear of darkness, they'll want to join me in our 'cave adventures.'

The girls are still welcome to come sleep in my room in case of nightmares or thunderstorms. Maybe they will like it once they give it a shot.

The 'time' thing sorted itself out it seems. My son still wakes up around 7:15-7:30. Normally by then, I've been awake but relaxing for awhile.

I'm also just in general, less moody and stressed out about the morning routines. It's more like when I was a kid, I'd hop out of bed feeling great and ready for new adventures.

Seriously, I didn't know what I was missing...a great night's sleep. That simple.




Odyssey said:
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
It's quite a strange sensation – on the one hand, knowing that time is passing, but in bed in my totally dark room, I feel somehow outside of time.

FWIW, I think you've summed it up quite well, Endymion. I noticed I look forward to going to bed, because it feels at times like I'm zoning out rather than sleeping (even though I am sleeping). I feel 'unplugged' (a feeling I have when I zone out, which is rarer and rarer). I used to drag my feet and find excuses not to go to bed because it meant that the day was over (and that I had not done all I wanted to do, etc.). It's like sleeping no longer feels like a waste of time!

It seems timeless to me too. I don't wake up every night to use the bathroom so the only way I can tell if it's morningtime is if my cat come into the bathroom while I'm in there. If it's the middle of the night he stays away.

I feel like I'm "power sleeping" because my sleep is so deep and restful. (Sometimes I wake up and if I still feel like I want to sleep more I'll do the POTS and go back to sleep.) I don't feel groggy or yawn-y when I wake up.
 
Dawn said:
.

I love my cave. Going to bed at night used to be a test in procrastination. Now I look forward to it. My daughters were against the idea of a cave in their room, but me and my son 'cave sleep' now, and he doesn't mind at all. He is young enough for adjustments I suppose. Hopefully eventually when the girls get over that pesky fear of darkness, they'll want to join me in our 'cave adventures


.

Dawn, I'm curious. What do you mean by "cave"? Is it something you have arrange?
 
A few people on this thread have called their totally dark bedrooms 'a cave' so that's what I've nicknamed my room. As it is 'dark as a cave.' "Cave adventures" was a fun way of saying "sleeping in total darkness in my nicknamed room."

Hope that helps clarify my post. :)



loreta said:
Dawn said:
.

I love my cave. Going to bed at night used to be a test in procrastination. Now I look forward to it. My daughters were against the idea of a cave in their room, but me and my son 'cave sleep' now, and he doesn't mind at all. He is young enough for adjustments I suppose. Hopefully eventually when the girls get over that pesky fear of darkness, they'll want to join me in our 'cave adventures


.

Dawn, I'm curious. What do you mean by "cave"? Is it something you have arrange?
 
Shane said:
I've also been having a lot of vivid dreams, many of which involved my immediate family members and childhood friends. Usually they're a bit dark too, like there is something bad going on in the dream. Nevertheless, I'm another who loves sleeping in a cave. :) I feel refreshed when I wake up and that is huge for me. I'm one who would hit the snooze button every ten min. for an hour or so. It would feel like an impossible task to get up before, but the difference now is...like night and day! HA! When I wake up now it literally feels like a switch is turned on and I'm awake. Whereas before it was sort of like being on a dial moving towards being awake, and I wouldn't really feel awake until noontime. I always loved sleepy time, and now it's just super awesome. for some reason it was really fun setting up my room for complete darkness too.
I was feeling the same vivid dreams with childhood friends and family members. Feel EXTREMELY lazy to wake up. takes long time to wakeup.
 
seek10 said:
Feel EXTREMELY lazy to wake up. takes long time to wakeup.

I was listening to T.S. Wiley's recent interview (from the link that dugdeep provided a few posts back; it was excellent btw) and she mentioned that if your body doesn't get to make enough melatonin before 12 am, then your body will still make it the morning before you get up, which at least in my case would account for my difficulty in waking up. I don't know if this would be the case for you or not, but figured I'd pass it on.
 
This is a great thread! Thank you Seamus for the flux link. I downloaded it last night and I was able to continue reading half an hour later before going to bed without having my sleep disrupted.
 
Dawn, absolutely. I even remember when I was young I liked very much to feel the darkness in my bed under the covers, like if I was under an Indian tent. Since I go to sleep with total darkness I feel secure and cozy.

By the way, since doing EE meditation I have dreams with animals, some violent dreams, very colorful dreams: with snakes, prairie dogs, chikens, dogs, bears. I don't know why. How come doing meditation every night can make you dream about animals? Bizarre...
 
Bluefyre said:
This is a great thread! Thank you Seamus for the flux link. I downloaded it last night and I was able to continue reading half an hour later before going to bed without having my sleep disrupted.

Sure, glad it helped. :)
 
Endymion said:
That's very interesting, SolarMother. This was people's normal sleep pattern before the advent of cheaply available lighting. Before our modern times, people generally had two periods of sleep at night, with a period of quiet waking between. This was well-known; so well known in fact that it was hardly remarked upon. Here's a quote from At Day’s Close: Night in Times Past, by A. Roger Ekirch. At Day’s Close is a fascinating book, and gives a real glimpse into an aspect of ordinary peoples’ lives at a time when artificial light, at night, was a much more scarce and expensive commodity than it is today.

At that time, people would have slept in total darkness, or sometimes with only moon- or star-light. It may be of course that two periods of sleep every night is not what the body needs, objectively speaking, but it is interesting that SolarMother reports a similar experience while sleeping in similar conditions.

A Roger Ekirch said:
Until the close of the early modern era, Western Europeans on most evenings experienced two major intervals of sleep bridged by up to an hour or more of quiet wakefulness. In the absence of fuller descriptions, fragments in several languages in sources ranging from depositions and diaries to imaginative literature give clues to the essential features of this puzzling pattern of repose. The initial interval of slumber was usually referred to as ‘first sleep’, or, less often, ‘first nap’ or ‘dead sleep’. in French the term was premier sonneil or premier somme, in Italian, primo sonno or primo sono, and in Latin, primo somno or concubia nocte. The succeeding interval of sleep was called ‘second’ or ‘morning’ sleep, whereas the intervening period of wakefulness bore no name, other than the generic term ‘watch’ or ‘watching’. Alternatively, two texts refer to the time of ‘first waking’.

Both phases of sleep lasted roughly the same length of time, with individuals waking sometime after midnight before returning to rest. Not everyone, of course, slept according to the same timetable. The later at night that persons went to bed, the later they stirred after their initial sleep; or, if they retired past midnight, they might not awaken at all until dawn. […]

Men and women referred to both intervals as if the prospect of awakening in the middle of the night was common knowledge that required no elaboration. ‘At mid-night when thou wak’st from sleepe,’ described the Stuart poet George Wither; while in the view of John Locke, ‘That all men sleep by intervals’ was a normal feature of life […]. […]William Harrison in his Description of England (1557) referred to ‘the dull or dead of the night, which is midnight, when men be in their first or dead sleep.’

Customary usage confirms that ‘first sleep’ constituted a distinct period of time followed by an interval of wakefulness. Typically, descriptions recounted that an aroused individual had ‘had’, ‘taken’, or ‘gotten’ his or her ‘first sleep’.

I found an article about this today:

Is “8 Uninterrupted Hours a Night” Flawed Conventional Wisdom?

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/biphasic-sleep/

Conventional Wisdom always gets an eyebrow raise from me. I can’t help it. Eventually, I take an honest look at whatever the experts are saying, but skepticism gets first dibs. I’d call it an instinct if it weren’t learned behavior from years of being burned. For example, I once took to task the most pervasive “truth” around: that everyone needs to drink eight glasses of water a day or risk kidney failure, toxin buildup, bladder cancer, and debilitating constipation. It was pretty easy to do.

[...]

I wonder about the CW position on sleep, though. We generally agree on the recommended duration of sleep. “About eight solid hours” is what you’ll see everywhere, from official governmental health guides to paleo nutrition blogs (I’m sure there’s some niche community out there claiming to have “transcended” sleep, though). I’m not going to argue with around eight hours, but note the use of “solid.” What does it connote?

Unbroken. Monophasic. Constant. Actually, it both connotes and denotes these things. Solid sleep is good sleep, right? And solid sleep means sleeping for about eight hours without waking. If you wake up, you’ve got a problem. Right?

Maybe not.

For most of human history, nighttime meant darkness. Not the blueish whitish permaglow from storefronts, billboards, and headlights enjoyed by modern city-goers. Not the yellow-orange bath radiating down from street lamps on quiet suburban streets, so ubiquitous that you only notice them when they go out. I’m talking about real, permeating darkness. Camping darkness. Small country road with the car lights out darkness. For our ancestors as recently as a couple hundred years ago, this kind of nighttime darkness lasted up to fourteen hours (well, it does today, too, but we mask it with all that lighting and housing). Artificial lighting meant candles and firewood, and those cost (money or time) and don’t really replace daylight (anyone who’s stifled yawns around a campfire knows that) like today’s artificial lighting replaces daylight. People got to bed earlier – because, unless you’re rich enough to burn candles all night, what else are you going to do when it’s dark everywhere but, as Thomas Middleton said, “sleepe, feed, and fart?” – and their sleep was biphasic, or broken up into two four hour segments, with the first beginning about two hours after nightfall.

The first segment of biphasic sleep was called “first sleep” or “deep sleep,” while the second was called “second sleep” or “morning sleep.” Numerous records of these terms persist throughout preindustrial European archival writings, while the concept of two sleeps is common in traditional cultures across the globe. Separating “first sleep” from “second sleep” was an “hour or more” of gentle activity and wakefulness. People generally didn’t spend this time online gaming or surfing the web or trolling the fridge for snacks; instead, they used it to pray, meditate, chat, or to simply just lie there and ruminate on life, the universe, and everything. It was still dark out so they tended to keep it pretty mellow. Sounds nice, huh?

Robert Louis Stevenson liked the idea, too. Sleep historian (awesome-sounding job!) Roger Ekirch writes of Stevenson who, in the fall of 1878, while trekking through the French highlands on foot, alone, made a remarkable discovery. As anyone who backpacks or spends time outdoors will corroborate, Stevenson found himself drifting off to sleep shortly after sunset. He awoke around midnight, smoked a cigarette, and, only after “enjoying an hour’s contemplation,” fell back asleep. That hour, that “one stirring hour” moved him; Stevenson had never before experienced a “more perfect hour.” He had awoken not because of an interloper, a night terror, or any other external actor, but because of what he later described as a “wakeful influence [that] goes abroad over the sleeping hemisphere” and is unknown to “those who dwell in houses.”

Ekirch thinks that the Industrial Revolution, especially the invention and proliferation of cheap electric lighting, forced modern society into its current monophasic sleep pattern by making artificial lighting that really lit up a room available to everyone. People with access to light bulbs could stay awake longer in brightly lit rooms because they were no longer subject to the circadian entrainment of natural light patterns. We’ve gone over light entrainment before. It’s likely worse nowadays, since we’re not just coping with access to ambient lighting, but also loads of interactive consumer electronics (like this laptop I’m using now) blasting circadian-disrupting light directly into our faces. Whereas Owen the London chimney sweep may have flicked on the light bulb and settled down to a good book and a bottle of ale after his shift and gotten to sleep around nine or ten, Jeff the SEO analyst stays up late arguing on Internet message boards with the laptops blue light beaming into his very soul. Sound familiar?

It’s likely that societal expectations about sleep structure – that it’s supposed to be eight hours of unbroken, deep, heavy slumber, as everyone knows – are making problems out of what may be normal sleeping patterns. Clinicians are finding that if they can make insomnia patients understand that waking up in the night is actually normal and natural, they feel better about their condition. Because they “perceive interrupted sleep as normal,” they stop stressing over waking and are able to get back to sleep more easily. Some forms of insomnia, in which people wake up in the middle of the night, might not actually be clinical conditions, but rather the manifestation of the natural human sleep cycle trying to assert itself. Insomnia may just be a problem of perception; if you look at your “problem” in a different light as explained by Ekirch, it disappears.

Imagine the possibilities if you could work just such an hour of free waking life into your sleep cycle! You wake up and, instead of exasperatingly checking the time, making a huge huff, and angrily grumbling and tossing and turning in a vain attempt to get back to sleep…

You vigorously and enthusiastically discuss last week’s post with your significant other (whose sleep schedule is also entrained to the biphasic cycle), thus stimulating your mind and supplying a steady rhythmic stimulus to your hip extensors.

You linger in twilight mindspace, that odd world between waking and sleeping that we rarely get to explore, and ponder dreams with a clarity that the 7 AM alarm for work simply doesn’t allow.

You light a candle and quietly read for an hour or so until sleep returns.

Sleep phase entrainment isn’t that easy, though. We do “dwell in houses.” We have by and large been sleeping monophasically for probably our entire lives. Our world is the product of the Industrial Revolution, for good and for bad, and so we must work with that reality. Candles at night will help, as will camping trips when possible, and limiting excessive late night computer exposure (or installing the ever-popular f.lux) is always a good move. You can try getting outdoor light exposure during the daytime – maybe go for that hike, that walk at lunch, or that outdoor workout.

But we’ve gone over that stuff before. It’s good, but it’s been done. In light of this new (old?) information about biphasic sleep patterns, perhaps the most effective change we can make is in our perception of sleep and waking. Make like those insomnia patients and change the way you think about waking up during the night. Don’t stress and fret; welcome it. Maybe, instead of assuming that this is all a horrible mistake and your cortisol is going to spike and you’re going to crave extra sugar in your coffee in the morning next time you wake up in the middle of the night, welcome it. Ever notice how you’re not all bleary eyed and zombie-like when you wake up at 2 AM like you are at 7 AM with the alarm blaring?

I’m thinking we should all explore why that is.
 
Odyssey said:
I feel like I'm "power sleeping" because my sleep is so deep and restful. (Sometimes I wake up and if I still feel like I want to sleep more I'll do the POTS and go back to sleep.) I don't feel groggy or yawn when I wake up.

I feel the same. I wake up every day around 6 in the morning without clock. My body knows. And I am with a new energy. I changed my diet too, eat more meat and and less and less wheat and glutten.

Since we change our hours to go to sleep, we take supper around 6 in the afternoon. Usually my husband was very tired after eating and went right away to sleep. But then, with our pattern changed he can wait 2 hours before going to sleep, leaving time for the digestion. He feels less tired (he as MS), we have both more energy and we fight less. I feel less depress and in panic. This is a big, big change for well in our lives. I'm so happy.
 
Thanks for the article on 8 Uninterrupted Hours of Sleep, Psyche.

I've been waking up in the middle of the night lately (not sure of what time it is what with the BatCave and all). I lie there and think for a while but I know I have to get up for work so I figure I'd better hurry and get back to sleep so I've been doing the POTS to help. If I lie there and think for too long I'll drift off to sleep eventually but then my alarm will go off sooner than I'm ready and I really don't want that. If I didn't have to get up for work this broken sleep would be most excellent as I enjoy the quiet, dark nothingness of just being in the dark and relaxing.
 
Yes indeed, much thanks for the article Psyche.

This is something I'm going to try being that I don't have to get up early most of the time. The first thing that came to mind was how much easier it would be for me to remember my dreams being that I have more of them nowadays. Just the other week I had a dream in which Laura popped in out of nowhere and told me the reason why I keep getting such dry skin around my eyes (something about the way I view things I believe) but being that I had four or five more dreams after that, I couldn't remember when I woke up. Next time I get up in the middle of the night I'm going to try a little meditation or some quiet contemplation instead.
 
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