Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality

[Keyhole]

Of course women (and men) are going to be treated as objects in such a world. What we saw in the interaction with Ariana and her fan and the ensuing reaction on Twitter was the verbal confirmation of what so many people are thinking but not saying. Which is, that Ariana and her ilk are at least partly responsible for those reactions. I very much disagree with that stance, as it's essentially a variation on the "blaming the victim" mindset that exists in rape cases by men and women.

I mostly agree with this, although I think it is fair to draw a causal relationship between the two things in this scenario without descending into a 'blame the victim' kind of mindset. Ariana's behaviour contributed to the fact that she has been objectified in this way, did it not? I may be missing something here, but from what I can see, it is fairly obvious that if someone potrays the image of a sex symbol, they are more likely to be treated like one.

This is not to place any blame on Ariana, since she is simply a product of the western society. But I struggle to see how, through her mechanicalness and susceptibility to manipulation, her behaviour is not partially responsible in this case specifically?

 

[Joe]

Taking a philosophical approach, the 'problem' of male objectification of women (and vice versa) seems to part of a general popular 'objectification' of almost everything, i.e. the tendency of human beings to see everything outside themselves through the lens of their own needs and what 'it' can do for them, thereby ignoring any independent or sovereign reality or identity or meaning (other than the one we want it to have) than the other or other thing actually has. That sounds like just another way to describe 'service to self'. The world is full of opportunities for anyone to use and exploit everything else, if they so choose, and we notice that, as time progresses in our civilization, people seem to be doing this more and more.

So this 'Ariana Grande' problem is just one aspect of the general problem that service to self beings encounter when they try to 'rebel' against and change our 'nature', a big part of which is biological imperatives, which could be said to include learned 'programs' because they generally are adopted as a 'survival' mechanism, which is a biological imperative.

So if we going to attempt to change our sts nature, we obviously need material to work with, or work against. How is a ship's captain expected to become an expert navigator of stormy seas if the seas are always calm? So rather than seeing this 'objectification' issue as something that needs to solved for society as a whole, maybe we, those engaged in the Work on the self, should see it as just one example of the 'raw material' that is essential for us to do battle with ourselves and our biological urges. Sure, it's a tall order and pretty difficult at time, and involves a 'try try and try again' approach, but that seems to be what's involved in achieving anything of real value.

Perspective is everything (I think someone said) and it's true. It's only a matter of choice (informed by awareness) for us to change our perspective on what the point of life is. We can change our conception of the meaning or purpose of life (and our purpose in it) from something for us to tailor to our specific (biological or programmed) preferences, to something towards which we must respond with knowledge and awareness and in the context of the understanding that life is a testing ground, so you will, at every moment potentially, be tested! How you respond to each test, each 'question' that life asks of you, will define your future and the ultimate meaning of your life. In short, YOU give your life a meaning by your choices, which are determined by your understanding. It's all a process, a journey, going somewhere we don't really know.

Ok, enough philosophizing.

 

[Niall]

While I find her 'art' repulsive, I won't be too harsh on Grande because she's still a young girl herself and she sounds intelligent.

Grande's defense is valid, but I think her distinction between representing herself as a sex toy, while wishing to actually be seen as an adult woman, is asking a bit much of a male teenager (who is probably heavily exposed to repeated daily doses of 'women as sex objects') in this day and age to discern. Grande is clearly, and by her own admission, selling a heavily provocative sexual image (soft porn, effectively). So, is she really "an adult human being", as she claims, or is it more that a part of her wishes to be?

I have only words of encouragement and support for the part of her that wants to be a decent human being, and which she's entitled to reach for, but with rights come responsibilities. With fame comes a price. As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.

I think that if we placed the above context into the standards of two people doing 'the work', we would say that one member doesn't get to flaunt sexuality, while the other doesn't get to imagine/fantasize that he/she is doing so. As to what exactly constitutes 'flaunting sexuality' and 'improper imagination', that would be resolved via networking on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Pierre]

Arianna Grande story is symptomatic of our modern society. In a healthy society nobody should be insulting and nobody should be provocative but those times are long gone if they ever existed.

Today, a lot of men objectify women by seeking physical appearances while a lot of women objectify men by seeking wealth. Both also objectify themselves with men overexposing or even faking their wealth and women overexposing or even faking their physical attributes.

Actually, objectification seems to be a direct consequence of the ponerization of our society. Psychopaths see the outer world as an extension of their self, as objects to be used, ponerization has spread this objectification in most minds (consumerism being one of numerous examples).

There is a couple of problems with those kinds of inter-gender dynamics. First, the true attractors (physical appearance and wealth) are generally concealed and more noble motivations like 'love' are stated as the prime reason of the relationship. As a result the whole relationship is built on a big lie.

Second, the stereotypical objectification of men and women focuses everything on very superficial factors (physical appearance, money) and, as a result, prevents connections on a deeper and truer level (collinearity, emotional intimacy,...)

Now, from a Work perspective, any individual can, of course, feel attracted but it is his/her responsibility not to be slave of those impulses, i.e. not to act mechanically.

The main trap when trying to control those impulses is to overcompensate by repressing them (and we know where repression leads to: emotional thinking, psychosomatic conditions,....). So, a balance approach seems to be key: acknowledging the existence of those impulses while not being controlled by them.

 

[Andrian]

There's a recent story on Sott about tweets by 23 year old American singer Ariana Grande. The short version is that she was approached by a fan after a concert and the fan made some rude comments about her (you can read them in the article) and she responded on twitter that "expressing sexuality in art is not an invitation for disrespect !!! just like wearing a short skirt is not asking for assault."

Starting with this particular case, I went and watched a few videos of her "art", the one Ariana Grande talks about. I never heard of her and never been exposed to her "art" so I was curious. Here are the videos I watched:

https://www.youtube.com/user/ArianaGrandeVevo/featured (the one featured on top of her page there)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HDdjwpPM3Y a video clip of a song titled Bang Bang, here are the lyrics
and another video clip for a song I am into You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KZaI_jtKs

I can't watch and hear any more, this kind of "art" is not my type, but she has tons of video clips with her songs on the web.

My first question is whether I should consider her work as art. Even though I don't like what she is singing, I do consider her voice as a good singing voice (especially as she performs in the bottom video above). But the lyrics she is using her voice for are pretty poor (language wise), nonsensical, and what message do all her songs convey? It is all about sex basically.

From the bang bang song:

She got a body like an hourglass
But I can give it to you all the time
She got a booty like a Cadillac
But I can send you into overdrive (oh)
Stop and wait, wait for that
Stop hold up, swing your bat
See anybody could be bad to you
You need a good girl to blow your mind, yeah

Bang bang into the room (I know you want it)
Bang bang all over you (I’ll let you have it)
Wait a minute let me take you there (ah)
Wait a minute tell you (ah)
Bang bang there goes your heart (I know you want it)
Back, back seat of my car (I’ll let you have it)
Wait a minute let me take you there (ah)
Wait a minute tell you (ah)

She might’ve let you hold her hand in school
But I’mma show you how to graduate
No, I don’t need to hear you talk the talk
Just come and show me what your momma gave (Oh yeah)
Your love gotta be baby, love but don’t say a thing
See anybody could be good to you
You need a bad girl to blow your mind

Bang bang into the room (I know you want it)
Bang bang all over you (I’ll let you have it)
Wait a minute let me take you there (ah)
Wait a minute tell you (ah)
Bang bang there goes your heart (I know you want it)
Back, back seat of my car (I’ll let you have it)
Wait a minute let me take you there (ah)
Wait a minute tell you (ah)

It’s Myx Moscato
It’s frizz in a bottle
It’s Nicki full throttle, it’s oh, oh
Swimming in the grotto
We winning in the lotto
We dipping in the pot of blue foam
Kitten so good
It’s dripping on wood
Get a ride in the engine that could
Go, Batman robbin’ it
Bang, bang, cockin’ it
Queen Nicki dominant, prominent
It’s me, Jessie, and Ari
If they test me they sorry
Ride us up like a Harley
Then pull off in this Ferrari
If he hanging we banging
Phone ranging, he slanging
It ain’t karaoke night but get the mic 'cause he singing

I am not sure what most of the above even mean as sentence structures. But the sexual innuendos are not even covert.

In the bottom video I posted above she appears the most dressed, compared to the other two videos I watched. The lyrics she is singing however follow the same unimaginative line:

So, baby, come light me up, and maybe I'll let you on it
A little bit dangerous, but, baby, that's how I want it
A little less conversation and a little more "touch my body"
'Cause I'm so into you, into you, into you
Got everyone watchin' us, so, baby, let's keep it secret
A little bit scandalous, but, baby, don't let them see it
A little less conversation and a little more "touch my body"
'Cause I'm so into you, into you, into you, oh yeah

So ok, so far we have a woman with a good voice, singing nonsensical lyrics inviting men to have sex with her, with a backround music that sounds unmelodic and cacophonous to my ears.

What about the visuals of her "art"?

It's mostly women in their underwear singing and dancing around in private and (mostly) public spaces. Maybe that's the "art" she talks about? Because in everyday life women don't go into the streets in their underwear. Why? Is it because we don't feel so comfortable with our bodies? Ariana and her friends are probably spending a lot of effort, time and money to have a body that does make them comfortable to show almost naked in public. On the other hand, most women will wear a swimsuit and go to the beach no problem. So why not their underwear? Especially where I come from, we spend days on end from morning till night in our swimwear, when we are in a city by the beach. But none of us would wear a swimsuit to go to school, office, for groceries or to a neighbour's house in a swimsuit. Nobody told us not to, but it is like this unwritten rule of the society/community we live in. And I think it is the same with wearing one's underwear in public. Some things are socially accepted at certain places and others are best kept within the walls of one's private space, like a couple's intimate moments. It is the externally considerate thing to do. In the end it might not be so much about "showing skin", but how and where is done I think.

So, when Ariana is complaining here that she is being objectified, I actually think that her "art" is doing women a disservice because she is the one objectifying women. She is the one wearing skimpy clothes and inviting men (maybe women too? her message is not clear to me) for sex. She is the one who says "Hey! My skimpy clothes are an invitation to view me as a sex object because that's what I say when I wear them". And then another young woman somewhere wears skimpy clothes because she watched an MTV video and thinks it's the new fashion, and she gets identified with the same message, though she only just wanted to be considered in/fashionable/cool by her other young friends, and she wanted the young man she likes to pay attention to her and think her sexy, but she got attention by way more than just him.

Can we blame Ariana for all that? Somebody else is writing her lyrics, somebody else is dressing her and directing her video clips, and she is making lots of money from all these. She is a participant however, and one of the deliverers of this message. Among countless other artists, and it is not just about the sex-objectification of women but men (and children) also, through this MTV/Hollywood type of unimaginative, uncreative, moraly degenerative lyrics, music and video that is being sold as "art". And I think that celebrities/public figures are public property in a way. The more people know you, the more positive and negative things you are going to hear about your person and your work, it's just how it is.

Ok, that's all I am thinking right now, though I am not sure how it all relates to Work. I have still to read the replies that keep accomulating as I write this.

PS {funny note} At some point I'd like to talk about the objectification of kitties too. Just take a look here:

‌http://www.boredpanda.com/cats-vintage-pin-up-girls/

http://www.boredpanda.com/hot-guys-and-kittens-part-ii/

Nobody looks at the sexy pin-up girl or the sexy sad-eyed man anymore when a kitty appears next to them. What's up with that? :P

Thank you Alana for your post, i'm totally agree with all that you have wrote. Off course what the guy said to Ariana was inappropriate and wrong, the problem is that the so called modern music, movie industry and in general the whole entertainment industry is ponerised to the core by the psychopaths, so the singers and actors when sending a such kind of a signal to the audience there will be those susceptible ones (with pathological tendencies) that will reply in words and actions in a violent, aggressive, disrespectful way towards other people, so to me this is not art but a damage towards the society, this kind of "art" degrades the children the younger generations, so what's the purpose of this kind of "art"? Mind you, i don't judge how other people look or what are they wearing, it is they right to wear what they like and i respect that, my problem is this kind of art that it gives me shivers (in a bad way).

This article written by Elliot about modern music and entertainment industry I've found it very insightfull: Modern Music: Promoting pedophilia to adults and sexual debauchery to children

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Niall]As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.[/quote]

Now that you say it. I mean she objectives women and men in her own songs !! In her lyrics we are nothing more than just meat for each others. And she complains about being objectified. Maybe she should have taken what the boy said as a mirror at what she is giving to Life. Which is poison.

 

[Beau]

I mostly agree with this, although I think it is fair to draw a causal relationship between the two things in this scenario without descending into a 'blame the victim' kind of mindset. Ariana's behaviour contributed to the fact that she has been objectified in this way, did it not? I may be missing something here, but from what I can see, it is fairly obvious that if someone potrays the image of a sex symbol, they are more likely to be treated like one.

This is not to place any blame on Ariana, since she is simply a product of the western society. But I struggle to see how, through her mechanicalness and susceptibility to manipulation, her behaviour is not partially responsible in this case specifically?

I agree, it's fair to say that there is a relationship while not resorting to black and white thinking. I think there is nuance there, and I probably came off a bit black and white above. I can be pretty emotional about how men treat women. Certainly her behavior contributes to being objectified, but as others have said, one can be doing everything they can to NOT get objectified and it still happens, women still get cat-called and told to smile and a bunch of other 'male privilege behaviors' just walking down the street. So it's from that POV that my comments about when a person is or is not responsible come from. Is Ariana responsible? Is the woman at the laundromat wearing short shorts and a tank top because everything else is dirty responsible? Where is the line at, where responsibility ends and sexism and harassment begin? How does society determine when someone is a sex symbol and thus contributing to their objectification? Does it even matter?

Women are objectified regardless of if they purposefully make themselves a sex symbol or not. Ariana's behavior doesn't help, and certainly it seems a little naive and/or hypocritical of her to complain considering everything she's put out there to sell herself. But I certainly don't think that she should just deal with the way men treat her and not be bothered by it because she's allowed herself be objectified. I know that's not the point you were making Keyhole, but it seems like that's the road it could go down for some people. "She's partly responsible, so she shouldn't have a problem with it." That's what I don't agree with, because it seems like a slippery slope.

 

[Ant22]

[quote author= Niall]As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.

Now that you say it. I mean she objectives women and men in her own songs !! In her lyrics we are nothing more than just meat for each others. And she complains about being objectified. Maybe she should have taken what the boy said as a mirror at what she is giving to Life. Which is poison.
[/quote]

As a mechanical being, full of buffers and self-importance, is she really capable of working with that mirror though?

 

[Jenn]

I'm 23 so I grew up with pop singers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Nicki Minaj as societal role models and I would most definitely say it affected me and the way I perceived myself, the things I wore and the way I interacted with the opposite sex in negative ways. The more I learned the more I realized that this wasn't healthy and tried to understand the reasons why I would model these people- to gain shallow self-esteem, it was trendy, to get attention etc. When I first saw the headline about Ariana I reacted really emotionally with anger directed at her and other women who say similar things, maybe the strong reaction came because I used to model that and it's kind of horrifying?!
After reading the comments here I feel abit embarrassed now because I think I adopted that mindset of 'blaming the victim' as Beau mentioned, this is what I posted on facebook when I first saw the headline:

I am sickkkk to death of women who claim to be promoting women's rights going on and on about how they feel objectified when they objectify themselves for a living. It's these kind of 'liberal and progressive' values that can destroy a society, I probably sound like a granny but what happened to respecting yourself and having modesty? IMO parading around half naked and being sexy is not fighting inequality, it's only adding to the problem and sustaining the idea that women are sex objects!?!?!

Taking into account what Beau said, Ariana like many others is a product of society so can she be blamed for not knowing any better? Well, no. Which kind of takes away the anger that I felt towards her, and the comments the guy made were rude and did objectify her. However I still feel that the way she chooses to express her 'art' in the public arena isn't helping the issue.

This topic reminds me of what the C's said a while back about self-presentation in relation to what you're aligning yourself with:

[quote author=http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39785.0.html]Q: (L) Alright. So, when I gave these talks here at these meetings we had a few years ago, and I described making a decision to help and just do one thing after another, day after day; in making such choices one day after the other, will this gradually move you step-by-step to a different timeline?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So it's accumulation of daily steps, daily choices, daily activities?

A: Yes and it would be extremely beneficial if more of your members learned and practiced this.

Q: (L) Can you be more specific about that?

A: For those who find themselves in a life situation that is less than desirable or optimal, small daily acts that declare their affinity for another reality will accumulate and trigger a phase transition.

Q: (L) Well, okay... You've said steps, daily steps. You don't like the reality that you're in so you look around yourself and you see things about your reality that you don't like... I mean, what kind of first daily steps can you take? If you're in a reality that's freaking controlling you and everything around you, how can you take steps? So many people are in situations where they can't even do that sort of thing. What kind of steps can people take at the most basic level?

A: Changing the mode of self-presentation and self-representation is the most basic.

Q: (Galatea) So like, changing habits?

A: Yes

Q: (Galatea) Changes in lifestyle here and there.

(L) Yeah, changes in your lifestyle?

(Perceval) Changes in your mode of self-presentation is kind of like what you identify with, ya know? It gets into what we were just talking about earlier. If a person is wearing clothes that identify him with a certain aspect of common popular culture, then if you are at odds with the world at large because of the insanity and suffering, that would be one of the first things to change: you identification with “popular culture”.

(L) So in other words, if you are not at home in the world the way it is and the way it has grown and the way it has developed, you need to put yourself into a different world NOW with small changes.

(Perceval) And at least stop identifying with this one. All the aspects that popular culture today pushes on people as means to identify with the reality of this world and what makes it tick - which is all kind of depraved and dysfunctional... And people absorb that and they start wearing clothes, and speaking differently, and that's all nothing but identifying with a manufactured aspect of this world and culture.

(L) Hairdos, clothing...

(Perceval) Anything.

(L) If you want to be part of a completely different world... In a sense, it's kinda like some of these people that belong to these organizations that like medieval stuff. So, they all get dressed up, and they have meetings, they have mock battles or whatever.

(Perceval) If there's enough bleedthrough, those people are gonna find themselves living 400 years ago! [laughter]

(L) And then dress: the whole Gothic thing, painting their nails black, and that identifies them with that “Goth” reality, so that's the timeline that they'll go into...

(Galatea) So basically, be the change that you want to see.

(L) Yeah. Be the change you want to see. I guess begin to model yourself on the people that you want to be LIKE or be WITH.

(Pierre) It goes beyond presentation and appearances. With those medieval guys, for example, that's the visible manifestation of what they like, what they think about...

(L) Yeah, how you present yourself is about what the values are that go with certain ways of appearing, like having self-respect, care for yourself, external considering, and so on. I mean, some of the hairdos these days are just completely... They disrespect the fact that they're a woman or the fact that they're a man and most of all that they are human beings.

(Pierre) And even the fundamental notion of beauty. It's almost like disrespecting the universe.

(L) So these are the kinds of small changes people can make. And by making these changes, what then happens?

A: Will attract the new reality incrementally.

Q: (Chu) I guess it's like becoming a better antenna for what you want to attract. Your outward appearance and how you present yourself... But then they said self-representation? That would attract the reality. It already exists somewhere, so it's not like you create it.

(L) You move yourself towards it by activating it in your own life.[/quote]

 

[Joe]

Of course women (and men) are going to be treated as objects in such a world. What we saw in the interaction with Ariana and her fan and the ensuing reaction on Twitter was the verbal confirmation of what so many people are thinking but not saying. Which is, that Ariana and her ilk are at least partly responsible for those reactions. I very much disagree with that stance, as it's essentially a variation on the "blaming the victim" mindset that exists in rape cases by men and women.

I mostly agree with this, although I think it is fair to draw a causal relationship between the two things in this scenario without descending into a 'blame the victim' kind of mindset. Ariana's behaviour contributed to the fact that she has been objectified in this way, did it not? I may be missing something here, but from what I can see, it is fairly obvious that if someone potrays the image of a sex symbol, they are more likely to be treated like one.

This is not to place any blame on Ariana, since she is simply a product of the western society. But I struggle to see how, through her mechanicalness and susceptibility to manipulation, her behaviour is not partially responsible in this case specifically?

I agree, and I don't think it's a case of blaming the victim but rather cause and effect. If I point out that a result of your actions was predictable given the conditions, surely there is some responsibility on you for blundering in, even if we're not blaming because of lack of understanding/knowledge.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Niall]As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.

Now that you say it. I mean she objectives women and men in her own songs !! In her lyrics we are nothing more than just meat for each others. And she complains about being objectified. Maybe she should have taken what the boy said as a mirror at what she is giving to Life. Which is poison.

As a mechanical being, full of buffers and self-importance, is she really capable of working with that mirror though?
[/quote]

I doubt it, that's why regulation isn't all that bad. People need rules for their own good. They are just machines after all. And if the rules can come along with the right education as of why they serve us all. Maybe people would understand.

Maybe in the future people will use her lyrics and that of many artists from the past to show how perverted humanity once was.

And what happens if regulation isn't applied. OSIT.

 

[msante]

I think there is more than just to blame it all on psychopaths or on society. They contribute for sure but they only amplify something deeper in us, which is what can be called the animal nature. We cannot escape personal responsibility.

In a crowd of people, you're likely to find individuals with different levels of development. Some have mastered their primitive drives and some not. To rise above the inner monkey is a conscious task, individually and often collectively, but it would be premature I think to assume that such maturity would occur automatically in a situation where psychopaths are inefficient.

I was thinking about Ariana and her reaction to the disrespect of her fans. I think music industry, system, or whatever (you can call it as you like) are all the time pushing society to objectify women/men, but on the other hand in our society there are "Arianas" that in a sense resonate with this and became tools of this "operation". Why or what is the nature of these "Arianas"? Well, I guess that the answer is complex and there are many forces involved here, but I could guess that many of them are just human being with their miseries and their mechanicals drives. That's why I think that we should see the "Arianas" with compassion and do not feed feelings like "she deserve it" or "she looked for it".

But just as exist this resonance of Ariana with this "phisical world" (so to speak), from her reaction I could think that a part of her (maybe a little one, but alive) could glimpse for a small fraction of time the horror of this mess in which we are as mankind. Maybe I am very optimistic here, but her reaction is in some way a sign that something human is still there. I do not know if it is enough to became aware and operate some change on her life (she seems very immersed in the mud) but see this type of events under this light maybe help us to keep a human and compassionate look on this crazy and horrendous world in which we live.

 

[Alana]

After reading the comments here I feel abit embarrassed now because I think I adopted that mindset of 'blaming the victim' as Beau mentioned, this is what I posted on facebook when I first saw the headline:

I am sickkkk to death of women who claim to be promoting women's rights going on and on about how they feel objectified when they objectify themselves for a living. It's these kind of 'liberal and progressive' values that can destroy a society, I probably sound like a granny but what happened to respecting yourself and having modesty? IMO parading around half naked and being sexy is not fighting inequality, it's only adding to the problem and sustaining the idea that women are sex objects!?!?!

Taking into account what Beau said, Ariana like many others is a product of society so can she be blamed for not knowing any better, well no, which kind of takes away the anger that I felt towards her, and the comments the guy made were rude and did objectify her. However I still feel that the way she chooses to express her 'art' in the public arena isn't helping the issue.

Jenn, I don't see Ariana as the victim here, not because of what that idiot guy said to her. I think that she is a victim, but of the pop/music industry culture, a young woman with incredible voice that has noone in her environment that truly loves and respects her, and they are just using her as puppet to spread the message that "women's bodies are up for grabs", making tons of money in the process. And that message is causing way more damage to society and women in general in my eyes, than the words the idiot guy said are damaging to her.

So, personally, I think your FB was justified, especially because it was written by you, especially because of the process you have been through identifying with these "artists" as you described, and what that has caused to you and your relationships.

 

[msante]

[quote author= Niall]As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.

Now that you say it. I mean she objectives women and men in her own songs !! In her lyrics we are nothing more than just meat for each others. And she complains about being objectified. Maybe she should have taken what the boy said as a mirror at what she is giving to Life. Which is poison.

As a mechanical being, full of buffers and self-importance, is she really capable of working with that mirror though?
[/quote]

In fact it is likely that she really believes (or self-convinced) that what she does is real art. Maybe this is the greatest "merit" of the "system". In that way can live inside her together "the woman that objectify her-self" and "the woman that sees objectivation of women like atrocity"... I really doubt that she might be able to take this as a mirror.

EDIT: clarification

 

[Joe]

Talking about victims, what about all the 'ordinary' women who are objectified, through no fault of their own, by society and men BECAUSE of the kind of trash that this 'Ariana' puts out there? Ordinary women who don't have her $millions and millions of "adoring fans"? If we're gonna talk about victims, then I'm with Jen.