Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality

Menna, if this is what you think of celebrities, I would be really amazed if your opinion of women in workplaces, clubs or pubs is any different. Please don't try to convince me I am incorrect, I have heard arguments very similar to what you wrote expressed by my men I know about women they know. I could give you a long speech about what I find hurtful and really disappointing about what you wrote. This topic could be argued till the end of time and I somehow doubt anything I said would make you change your mind.

I would however like to point out that you have a shirtless photo of yourself as your avatar. It makes me wonder whether you don't see anything wrong with objectification because you don't mind being objectified yourself. This is absolutely fine of course, there are women who enjoy this kind of attention too. But there are also people of both sexes who simply do not welcome it. I myself prefer to be assessed wholistically and if someone isn't capable of it, it says a lot about them, not about me.

Hopefully the below post will give you a different perspective:

_https://web.facebook.com/abrine/posts/10153959293409401?_rdr

Let's not jump to conclusions based on 1 post being that we have never met or spoke. Thanks though. I was commenting on the celebrity world and Hollywood and if you want to get to the top you have to put yourself in certain situations hence the play I. Dirt get dirty quote. I wasn't commenting on her as a person but what a person goes through as a celebrity. Nice to converse with you for the first time although it came with an presumption of my thought process
 
msante said:
Ant22 said:
bjorn said:
[quote author= Niall]As the Cs said: "Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God." Grande shouldn't be shocked at this young boy's comments about her. The fact of the matter is she was shocked, which means that, in the course of setting a good example for others - young fans especially - which she has done by staking her rightful claim to respect, there's also something there for her to learn about herself.

Now that you say it. I mean she objectives women and men in her own songs !! In her lyrics we are nothing more than just meat for each others. And she complains about being objectified. Maybe she should have taken what the boy said as a mirror at what she is giving to Life. Which is poison.

As a mechanical being, full of buffers and self-importance, is she really capable of working with that mirror though?

In fact it is likely that she really believes (or self-convinced) that what she does is real art. Maybe this is the greatest "merit" of the "system". In that way can live inside her together "the woman that objectify her-self" and "the woman that sees objectification of women like atrocity"... I really doubt that she might be able to take this as a mirror.

EDIT: clarification
[/quote]

It amazes me how utterly deprived she is of any self-awareness that her songs about objectification sends out a message of objectification. Clearly logic doesn't apply to her.

It's like selling bombs. And than complain that people told you that your bombs are killing people.

They really don't take responsibility for their actions. Of course she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. But maybe she should have taken the hint with that boy that her perverse songs brings out perverse behavior in people. That's all.

And selling 'porn' in the name of art really is distasteful. That she even can call it 'art' doesn't speak well for her.

What the boy said was hurtful, but what she is selling hurts society a billion times more. So who is the real victim here? The one who makes tents of millions out of it? Or the women and men who get treated like meat because other people are infected with her programming.
 
Jenn said:
After reading the comments here I feel abit embarrassed now because I think I adopted that mindset of 'blaming the victim' as Beau mentioned, this is what I posted on facebook when I first saw the headline:
I am sickkkk to death of women who claim to be promoting women's rights going on and on about how they feel objectified when they objectify themselves for a living. It's these kind of 'liberal and progressive' values that can destroy a society, I probably sound like a granny but what happened to respecting yourself and having modesty? IMO parading around half naked and being sexy is not fighting inequality, it's only adding to the problem and sustaining the idea that women are sex objects!?!?!

Taking into account what Beau said, Ariana like many others is a product of society so can she be blamed for not knowing any better? Well, no. Which kind of takes away the anger that I felt towards her, and the comments the guy made were rude and did objectify her. However I still feel that the way she chooses to express her 'art' in the public arena isn't helping the issue.

You shouldn't feel embarrassed Jenn. Like Joe said, it is a cause and effect, not so much blaming the victim even if she is just being used by the industry. What you wrote on FB I think holds value. Does that mean that Ariana or anyone should put up with harassment? No, but it also holds her accountable for her actions and, like you said, for sustaining the idea that women are sex objects.
 
Joe said:
Talking about victims, what about all the 'ordinary' women who are objectified, through no fault of their own, by society and men BECAUSE of the kind of trash that this 'Ariana' puts out there? Ordinary women who don't have her $millions and millions of "adoring fans"? If we're gonna talk about victims, then I'm with Jen.

I agree with you Joe, it is actually the objectification I experienced myself that made me react very emotionally in my initial posts.

Menna said:
Let's not jump to conclusions based on 1 post being that we have never met or spoke. Thanks though. I was commenting on the celebrity world and Hollywood and if you want to get to the top you have to put yourself in certain situations hence the play I. Dirt get dirty quote. I wasn't commenting on her as a person but what a person goes through as a celebrity. Nice to converse with you for the first time although it came with an presumption of my thought process

Menna, I do apologize for this. I understand my emotional outburst was offensive to you, judgemental and unnecessary, as it didn't really contribute to the discussion. I projected on you my personal negative experience of objectification. My own behavior and choice of outfit could not be further from Ariana's and yet somehow I put her under the same category I put myself whilst putting you under the category I put men who acted disrespectfully towards me in the past. I guess my little I got in the way and took over completely.

As Joe said above, it is women who get objectified "BECAUSE of the kind of trash that this 'Ariana' puts out there" that are real victims here. But not only women: men who get labeled with "all men are the same" or "objectification is always wrong so you're to blame" are victims too, as I unintelligently demonstrated in my post you quoted.

Once again, I really do apologize. As someone who wants to do the work I should have at least calmed down before I posted that emotional rant of mine, which did nothing but offend people.

It's been a while since I read through the thread on opinions and I think I really need to re-read it. A refresher of the chapter on formatory thinking and formulation from the 4th way would help too.
 
Joe said:
Talking about victims, what about all the 'ordinary' women who are objectified, through no fault of their own, by society and men BECAUSE of the kind of trash that this 'Ariana' puts out there? Ordinary women who don't have her $millions and millions of "adoring fans"? If we're gonna talk about victims, then I'm with Jen.

I don't know if this is diverting from the topic but something else I just thought of in this context is porn, from this article
Mary Anne Layden of the University of Pennsylvania, who specialises in sexual trauma, said pornography has been a factor in every case of sexual violence that she has treated as a psychotherapist.
So if what this therapist says is true, that a major factor contributing to sexual violence is porn, is it the porn stars fault? IMO yes and no, if they weren't porn stars then the porn industry couldn't survive and maybe the average joe, with access to trillions of types of porn, wouldn't think sadistic and demeaning sexual acts are desirable, unless he was a deviant.

On the other hand porn stars themselves were probably victims of some kind of abuse and are again just products of society. But the industry they participate in contributes to violence against 'ordinary' people so surely they are somewhat accountable?
 
And then there's something like this:

Facebook under fire after it censors ‘explicitly sexual’ statue of Neptune

Facebook is in the firing line again - this time for censoring a photograph of a statue of Neptune in Bologna, Italy.

Italian writer Elisa Barbari was notified by Facebook that her photograph of the 16th-century statue was "explicitly sexual" as she tried to upload it to her cover image for her page, ‘Stories, curiosities and views of Bologna’.

When Barbari challenged the decision, she received an email outlining Facebook’s decision to uphold the ban, which stated it was in violation of its advertising guidelines.

“The use of the image was not approved because it violates Facebook’s guidelines on advertising,” Facebook said. “It presents an image with content that is explicitly sexual and which shows to an excessive degree the body, concentrating unnecessarily on body parts.”

“The use of images or video of nude bodies or plunging necklines is not allowed, even if the use is for artistic or educational reasons,” it added.

Barbari fumed at the decision. “The statue is shown from behind, not even as a close up, it's in the distance. It's ridiculous," she told CNN.

On her Facebook page, she posted, “Yes to Neptune, no to censorship,” over the image as a response to the action.

“How can a work of art, our very own statue of Neptune, be the object of censorship?” she told the Telegraph.

“I wanted to promote my page but it seems that for Facebook the statue is a sexually explicit image that shows off too much flesh. Really, Neptune? This is crazy!” she said.

Facebook later said in a statement that the censorship had been a mistake. “Our team processes millions of advertising images each week, and in some instances we incorrectly prohibit ads,” it said. “This image does not violate our ad policies. We apologise for the error and have let the advertiser know we are approving their ad.”

Neptune is the latest work of art Facebook has deemed inappropriate.

Post a video of Ariana Grande gyrating on an exercise bike, and it's all good. Post an image of a nude sculpture - uh-uh, until Facebook gets called out on it.
 
Beau said:
Is Ariana responsible? Is the woman at the laundromat wearing short shorts and a tank top because everything else is dirty responsible? Where is the line at, where responsibility ends and sexism and harassment begin? How does society determine when someone is a sex symbol and thus contributing to their objectification? Does it even matter?

Women are objectified regardless of if they purposefully make themselves a sex symbol or not. Ariana's behavior doesn't help, and certainly it seems a little naive and/or hypocritical of her to complain considering everything she's put out there to sell herself. But I certainly don't think that she should just deal with the way men treat her and not be bothered by it because she's allowed herself be objectified. I know that's not the point you were making Keyhole, but it seems like that's the road it could go down for some people. "She's partly responsible, so she shouldn't have a problem with it." That's what I don't agree with, because it seems like a slippery slope.
IMO its still fairly difficult to make a comparison between someone like Ariana and the 'average woman' at the laundromat. Ariana is an extremely popular figure with a wide-spread influence on impressionable youngsters. The average woman's behaviour and choices do not have the same knock-on effect as those of popstars. Therefore, I think that this places a greater level of responsibility on the shoulders of people who have this kind of influence, whether they can deal with that appropriately or not. Clearly, there are so many avenues surrounding this topic within which one can fall into back-and-white thinking, and it seems like there are no clear cut answers to the questions you posed. I agree that the "she shouldn't have a problem with it" type of attitude is not a healthy one to take, and for the majority of people, this thinking could quite easily to a distorted perception which misses Ariana's point completely. However, since the discussion is based on this forum, I should hope that people reading don't fall down that slippery slope.
 
Jenn said:
When I first saw the headline about Ariana I reacted really emotionally with anger directed at her and other women who say similar things, maybe the strong reaction came because I used to model that and it's kind of horrifying?!
After reading the comments here I feel abit embarrassed now because I think I adopted that mindset of 'blaming the victim' as Beau mentioned

The truth is that when I read the headline, my initial reaction was to think that it's Ariana's fault, because of the way she dresses and behaves. Then after I thought about it I felt bad and it reminded me of how people react to a woman who goes home with a man after being out at the bar and then goes to police because she was raped. Some people say that she was basically consenting to sex because she did all those things, despite the fact that it's still her choice to have sex. That's blaming the victim, but after thinking about it a bit more that's different than this situation. I swung from one side of the other, while I think the truth is somewhere in the middle as the others have mentioned. It's not blaming the victim to hold her accountable for how her behavior affects men's perceptions of women who don't project themselves the way she does. So you were right, it's rather hypocritical of her getting mad about something she actually engenders with her behavior. I don't blame you for being upset about that.
 
I've noticed lately a type of "logic" (in people at large in the world today) that goes something like this:

Person A: I don't like the color blue.

Person B: OH MY GOD! You jerk! You're anti-sky! HOW DARE YOU?! Think about the birds! THE BIIIIRDS!

The discussion on Ariana's Twitter page (and even some of the discussion here) very quickly went into the realm of emotional reactions. These reactions - while sometimes perfectly valid, at least from a certain perspective - also generally don't fully take into account all the details of the situation.

I'm going to call this The Snowflake Effect. I think this "effect" we're seeing is about much more than just "lefty liberals"...

Practical examples:

- Dude posts on SOTT FB and says (paraphrasing): "But the Dems didn't need to steal the election because Hillary was gonna win anyway. Trump won, therefore he's evil and he stole the election!"

- "Not Trump! He's a CHAUVINIST!!!" Yeah, he is. JFK was reportedly quite the womanizer. Hillary? She's a murderer and destroyer of entire nations and democracies.

- Jordan Peterson's "discussion" with the Gender Neutral Crowd where they literally almost drove him mad because of the intense emotional focus on tiny points that totally missed the bigger picture and were usually nothing more than psychopathological nitpicking

There have also been a few stories in the news lately:

‘If there’s sugar, ants will come’: Indian politicians blame women for NYE 'mass molestation'

A minister and an MP in India have come under fire for suggesting that it’s the way women dress that’s to blame for the mass sex attack in Bangalore on New Year’s Eve.

In the city of Bangalore, the largest in the southern Indian state of Karnataka, scores of women were, according to the local media, attacked and molested by groups of men, apparently drunk, on the night of December 31.

The sexual assaults happened despite the presence of 1,500 police on the streets. The incident has spread shock throughout the country.

Referring to the reports, Karnataka Home Minister, G Parameshwara criticized women for dressing “like westerners.”

And this one:

Woman beaten with stick in India for resisting sexual assault

And this:

Sheriff sues county claiming bosses ignored his claims of sexual harassment by female superior

And now the Ariana Grande thing.

Kinda makes you wonder what's really going on here. It almost seems like divide and conquer on an epic scale. Destroy what it means to be a woman, destroy what it means to be a man - oh heck just destroy gender completely - and then let everyone get really, REALLY pissed off at each other because everyone is ignoring some aspect of reality and not considering each other at all.

So, especially in the context of the Work and especially for this "hot button" issue, we should strive to avoid The Snowflake Effect at all costs. Primarily, that just means thinking critically at all times, considering all sides, and not letting how we feel in the moment color everyone and everything.

Easy, right? :shock:

That doesn't mean you have to be a Vulcan. Mostly it just means, "keep it below the neck!" It's perfectly okay to say how something made you feel, but it's not okay (in the context of the Work) to be snide, smug, a smartass, to generalize, etc. Expressing emotions and using them as weapons against another are two very different things.

Express, discuss, rinse and repeat!
 
Scottie said:
I've noticed lately a type of "logic" (in people at large in the world today) that goes something like this:

Person A: I don't like the color blue.

Person B: OH MY GOD! You jerk! You're anti-sky! HOW DARE YOU?! Think about the birds! THE BIIIIRDS!

The discussion on Ariana's Twitter page (and even some of the discussion here) very quickly went into the realm of emotional reactions. These reactions - while sometimes perfectly valid, at least from a certain perspective - also generally don't fully take into account all the details of the situation.

I'm going to call this The Snowflake Effect. I think this "effect" we're seeing is about much more than just "lefty liberals"...

Practical examples:

- Dude posts on SOTT FB and says (paraphrasing): "But the Dems didn't need to steal the election because Hillary was gonna win anyway. Trump won, therefore he's evil and he stole the election!"

- "Not Trump! He's a CHAUVINIST!!!" Yeah, he is. JFK was reportedly quite the womanizer. Hillary? She's a murderer and destroyer of entire nations and democracies.

- Jordan Peterson's "discussion" with the Gender Neutral Crowd where they literally almost drove him mad because of the intense emotional focus on tiny points that totally missed the bigger picture and were usually nothing more than psychopathological nitpicking

There have also been a few stories in the news lately:

‘If there’s sugar, ants will come’: Indian politicians blame women for NYE 'mass molestation'

A minister and an MP in India have come under fire for suggesting that it’s the way women dress that’s to blame for the mass sex attack in Bangalore on New Year’s Eve.

In the city of Bangalore, the largest in the southern Indian state of Karnataka, scores of women were, according to the local media, attacked and molested by groups of men, apparently drunk, on the night of December 31.

The sexual assaults happened despite the presence of 1,500 police on the streets. The incident has spread shock throughout the country.

Referring to the reports, Karnataka Home Minister, G Parameshwara criticized women for dressing “like westerners.”

And this one:

Woman beaten with stick in India for resisting sexual assault

And this:

Sheriff sues county claiming bosses ignored his claims of sexual harassment by female superior

And now the Ariana Grande thing.

Kinda makes you wonder what's really going on here. It almost seems like divide and conquer on an epic scale. Destroy what it means to be a woman, destroy what it means to be a man - oh heck just destroy gender completely - and then let everyone get really, REALLY pissed off at each other because everyone is ignoring some aspect of reality and not considering each other at all.

So, especially in the context of the Work and especially for this "hot button" issue, we should strive to avoid The Snowflake Effect at all costs. Primarily, that just means thinking critically at all times, considering all sides, and not letting how we feel in the moment color everyone and everything.

Easy, right? :shock:

That doesn't mean you have to be a Vulcan. Mostly it just means, "keep it below the neck!" It's perfectly okay to say how something made you feel, but it's not okay (in the context of the Work) to be snide, smug, a smartass, to generalize, etc. Expressing emotions and using them as weapons against another are two very different things.

Express, discuss, rinse and repeat!

I concur.
 
bjorn said:
msante said:
Ant22 said:
bjorn said:
They really don't take responsibility for their actions. Of course she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. But maybe she should have taken the hint with that boy that her perverse songs brings out perverse behavior in people. That's all.

And selling 'porn' in the name of art really is distasteful. That she even can call it 'art' doesn't speak well for her.

What the boy said was hurtful, but what she is selling hurts society a billion times more. So who is the real victim here? The one who makes tents of millions out of it? Or the women and men who get treated like meat because other people are infected with her programming.

I am not so sure that this can be so simple. I can be wrong but what you say sound for me as if you never in your life have fallen in a delusion. I (like many of you I guess), have fallen many times (specially on my youth) on false beliefs and that made me make mistakes, and in many cases harm others. IMO I think that as many of us Ariana is victim and victimazer at the same time. I am not trying to do a defense of this girl or puting her just like a victim, but I think that just to sit to blame her for not take her opportunity to "grow" or something like that maybe is a point of view a little simple and a kind of black and white thinking.
 
Jenn said:
After reading the comments here I feel abit embarrassed now because I think I adopted that mindset of 'blaming the victim' as Beau mentioned, this is what I posted on facebook when I first saw the headline:
I am sickkkk to death of women who claim to be promoting women's rights going on and on about how they feel objectified when they objectify themselves for a living. It's these kind of 'liberal and progressive' values that can destroy a society, I probably sound like a granny but what happened to respecting yourself and having modesty? IMO parading around half naked and being sexy is not fighting inequality, it's only adding to the problem and sustaining the idea that women are sex objects!?!?!

Taking into account what Beau said, Ariana like many others is a product of society so can she be blamed for not knowing any better? Well, no. Which kind of takes away the anger that I felt towards her, and the comments the guy made were rude and did objectify her. However I still feel that the way she chooses to express her 'art' in the public arena isn't helping the issue.

Don't feel embarrassed Jenn. I've struggled with the same 'blame the victim' mentality, but it falls apart under scrutiny like this. And I don't think your FB post is blaming the victim. She does come across as hypocritical and ignorant of how her behavior effects people and how she's treated as a result. Those things do add to the problem of her being objectified. In the bigger picture, she's a pawn in the music and sex industry. In that sense, she is a victim. What she is doing is mostly accepted in our society and has been for some time now. Just look at 80's pop star Madonna's recent antics during the election run-up. She's one of the women who paved the way for sex-selling women entertainers of today. That's what this young lady is up against. Years and years of this sort of indoctrination.

I hope that the part of her that is outraged and recognizes that something is wrong continues to grow.
 
It's always the same argument, which came first? The egg or the chicken? Here's another variation of Ariana's situation in the West only this time the usual rape/groping problems in India. The comments below the article are rather interesting... same points of who's to blame? and the usual answers... http://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/cover-story/Bengalurus-night-of-shame/articleshow/56279784.cms
 
I read the 4 or 5 first answers to this thread and then started to write an answer earlier today, but coming back now I see the thread has grown really big already!
I'm still posting what I've written earlier, and will read the other answers later on, to see what is other people's take on the issue. I'm sorry if what I've written is redundant. Maybe I'm way off. These are just my thoughts on the topic right now. I'd already tried to reflect on this issue, without coming to a definite answer.

I had no idea who this Ariana Grande was, so I read the article Joe linked to, and then checked some of her lyrics and music videos, which are quite telling. From what I gather, she's apparently a kind of toned-down version of Miley Cyrus. A perfect illustration of what's wrong about this world, in terms of 'expression of sexuality', the objectification of women (or I should rather say, women, men and children), the distorsion of men/women relationships, the corruption of sexuality under the guise of sexual emancipation, the need for showbizz industry to force women to expose their bodies because it sells (and manipulating them into believing they do it "by their own free will", as an "artistic expression of sexuality" )

Just to make things clear, I don't think it's right, and I'd never justify such behaviour towards women: insulting her/assaulting her/thinking she gave you the right to treat her like a sexual object/a thing to use and abuse simply because she sings 'sexually explicit' lyrics, dresses provocatively, or was drunk at a party, or simply looked at you. Or just simply because she's a woman, and it's "the way things are" ("Boys will be boys", and it's normal to be 'aroused' by women). So, however a woman dresses, whatever her behaviour, however she looks or talks, this kind of behavior / abuse is never OK.

However, given the world we live in, I think it's disingenuous, or very naive on Ariana's part to not expect that kind of sexist behaviour/comments from men, because most of them are just very sexually and emotionally immature, and are taught from a young age to objectify women!

Women are required to be sexually desirable in the showbiz industry (and in general) if they want to succeed. The more provocative the better. So she just perpetuates that state of affairs by complying to stereotypes.

I don't see such "art" (the 'sexy' music videos, the explicit lyrics) as an expression of "feminine sexuality". But in her ignorance, because of the general programming, Ariana must think she's a free, emancipated woman.

And men, most of whom are immature emotionally, just react to this kind of display of feminine bodies and 'invitations to sexuality" the only way they know how. It's mechanical, programmed behaviour, natural in this world. I don't see how we can expect them (esp. young men, most of whom learn about sexuality by watching porn) to behave in any other way, really.

From the perspective of the Work, I'd say a more spiritually developed man would see this kind of so-called 'free expression of female sexuality' as trivial and infantile.

I'd say the first task, if we want to get out of this mess, would be for men to grow up emotionally/sexually, and then the rest would follow naturally. Not the other way around, i.e. women having to cover themselves in order to not 'provoke' and 'arouse' men.
An emotionally grown-up man would not be aroused by such display. A woman trying to incite a response from him by being 'provocative'/sexually suggestive would see it doesn't work. She'd stop doing it to please him (why else would a woman dress provocatively? Just for the heck of it? I don't think so). She'd stop manipulating. She'd be freer to be herself, freed from the pressure put on women by society to look good/sexy in order to 'get the guy'.

The emotionally/'spiritually' developped man would explain to the woman that she doesn't need to resort to that kind of behavior to get his attention.
The woman could try to impress/seduce him, but it'd be the man's job not to react to it (master himself), 'saying no', while treating her with respect. Seeing her, and treating her like a human being first and foremost. A human being who might be wounded, and just needs to grow up, and learn what is healthy and what is not.

Ideally, men and women would work together to overcome their programming. But as I said, first, I think it'd be the man's task to overcome his urges so the woman can be "free" - free to be, and to become whoever she wants to be. Don't know if that makes sense.

Relationships would then become more authentic, spiritual and true.

Sexual 'needs' would only be the need for partners to bond emotionally/spiritually. Not the other way around (I have sexual needs => I need a partner).

I can only speak from a female point of view, but I guess for men (who are supposedly more 'sexually driven) it'd become easier to master those urges as they grow older.

For the education of young men, i.e. learning how to properly treat women and channel their sexual impulses / hormones positively, in a non-harmful way, in THIS particularly screwed-up world devoid of any good, male role model (there're only so many Putin's out there), I don't know what could be done, realistically.
Really, we just need good male role models, and the rest would follow and come into place. Those are my thoughts anyway.

As an aside, I'd like to share that very funny video of a young woman's hilarious (and very smart) response to sexual harassment in the street. I think it sums up perfectly the emotional/sexual immaturity of a lot of men these days: they make stupid, sexist comments not particularly because they're horrible jerks (ok, some may be), but because they're just big babies who don't think at all. As soon as the object of their sexist comments replies to them and starts to actually interact with them - as soon as they realize that what they have in front of them is a feeling/thinking HUMAN BEING (not a sex doll / an object of fantasy), they have a kind of meltdown and become stuttering idiots. Even if it's funny, it's actually quite pathetic and sad and speaks to the lack of maturity of a lot of men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9jvxwKnMlo

Last (this is getting long already), I think those comments from the C's provide clues as to which direction humans (both men and women, but men first, by learning how to overcome/channel his urges creatively) should go if they want to sort out this mess:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28374.msg353142.html#msg353142

Q: (L) Now, I was just reading in "Bringers of the Dawn" about male energy and female energy and it says: "We have said that the male vibration will transform in a very short period of time. We will not tell you why or how because some of you will consider it to be entirely too ominous, however, we will say that as the waves continue to come there will be a unilateral rising of consciousness within the population. At a certain point, when men are in the deepest point of mastering feeling, the feeling center will be activated. This will either occur gently or it will be blown wide open." What will be "entirely too ominous?"

A: Energy redirection.

Q: (L) Energy direction is going to happen and that is what you are saying is the ominous thing here?

A: Overview.

Q: (L) Well, what does energy direction specifically mean? What kind of energy?

A: Sexual.

Q: (L) And this is going to be the ominous event that would frighten people?

A: Repercussions.

Q: (L) What are the repercussions?

A: Many.

Q: (L) Could you tell us some of them?

A: First you must figure out answer to number one.

Q: (L) Well, sexual energy "redirected"; does this mean women will stop having sex with men?

A: Not exactly.

Q: (L) Am I close?

A: Yes. Men will lose most of their drive in favor of more spiritual pursuits. It is the sex drive that is at the root of most of the historical aggression and lack of feeling on the part of the male.

Q: (L) Can we tell others?

A: Might cause turmoil but up to you.

Q: (L) I noticed that at about the same time I began meditating heavily that my drive plummeted. Is this because of the meditation?

A: Yes. Females will lose some drive too. But how will humans react to this, that is the question. Will they be prepared?

Q: (L) Does this mean that everybody is going to lose interest in sex?

A: Will have much less and must learn to relate to each other more spiritually.

Q: (L) Is this because one of the major drives of the human being is for contact and, up to now, this has been manifested through sexual union and without the sexual urge they will be forced to find other ways to relate?

A: One would hope so. You are all moving toward 4th level which is less physical thus you must learn this existence in order to pass through into the 4th level.


Q: (L) And those who do not learn will not pass, is that correct?

A: Yes. Some will be relieved. It depends upon how advanced one is.

Q: (L) I have drawn a sort of conclusion about some of the activities of the Lizzies and their abductions through the Grays and so forth, and it seems to me that these excessive numbers of exams, gynecological, reproductive or whatever exams might possibly be a screen for a process that is used to extract life force or energy from the human being, through the basal chakra, the sexual chakra, as I understand where the life force enters in. Is this idea correct or on track?

A: Close.

Q: (L) It does seem that the Grays and Lizzies are abnormally interested in sexual activities of human beings, is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Why are they so inordinately interested in this and why do they practice sex, sexual aberrations, or do they have a tremendous sex drive even though they are fourth density beings?

A: Too many questions; one at a time.

Q: (L) Do they have tremendous sex drives even though they are in fourth density?

A: No.

Q: (L) Are they interested in sexual energy simply because it is life force?

A: Partly and also desperately to stave off change in order to retain control.

Q: (L) What changes are they desperate to stave off?

A: To 4th level.


Q: (L) They are trying to stave off the 4th level change. Can they do that?

A: No. Also hoping to retain control even if change occurs.
 
I still need to catch up with the full extent of the thread..! But thought I'd chime in a bit, in response to some of what I've read..

Jenn said:
I'm 23 so I grew up with pop singers like Beyonce, Rihanna, Nicki Minaj as societal role models and I would most definitely say it affected me and the way I perceived myself, the things I wore and the way I interacted with the opposite sex in negative ways. The more I learned the more I realized that this wasn't healthy and tried to understand the reasons why I would model these people- to gain shallow self-esteem, it was trendy, to get attention etc.

I'm more than 10 years older than you so Rihanna and Nicki Minaj weren't around in my formative years but there was early Beyonce, or 'Destiny's Child', Puff Daddy or P.Diddy as he goes by now I believe..a lot of different mainstream rap or R & B stars I'd listen to that might be considered somewhat tame in ways to what is now out there. Even so, I also think it definitely contributed in ways to a distorted sense of self, lack of boundaries, letting others treat me unwell…

I bet the music I followed and listened to at the time, influenced to one extent or another my getting into an unhealthy relationship in my late teens..objectification all around. A very heavy blow when I could see it more for what it was. Somewhere on down the line, I started to sense how hollow and pathetic the music I once liked was. The type of music, mainstream music we're speaking of here is almost spell binding in some way, especially to the impressionable.

Thanks btw Jenn, for the link to the session about self-presentation and self-representation in your post, a good one to read again-especially with regards to this topic.

DianaRose94 said:
The thing is that unlike before, nowadays if you dress very sexily you can call it "empowerement" or "expressing your sexuality" and become a feminist icon even though the only thing you're trying to empower is your bank account, lol !

I wonder if this star, Ariana Grande who I'm only learning of today due to this thread…I wonder if she and other performers like her actually believe their 'art' is empowering young women, that they themselves are empowered by it? So, when something like this happens, and she's objectified by a fan..the truth of how opposite of empowering her 'art' is hits a little closer to home than she'd care for..?
 
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