Astral projection

[Jsf]

For all we know, everything she said was a product of a schizophrenic imagination.

She read the target-number, that is not imagination I suppose.

As Gurdjieff and Mouravieff both point out, real life and its attendant duties is the best possible environment for doing the Work.

I totally agree with that, and I think that AP could be part of real life, if correctly 'taken into account'.

Perhaps we need to know the name of this neuropsychologist as well as your own name so as to verify what you are saying.

Amazon link, http://www(DOT)douance.be/douance-hp-jeanne-siaud-facchin.htm , http://fr(DOT)wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Siaud-Facchin , http://www(DOT)centrecogitoz.fr/ etc.
And me - Juri a n (not Jurien) Sterk. (edited)

You have misquoted, quoted out of context, referenced work that does not "prove your point," but in fact, does the exact opposite.

No no, it was just to reply at anart, he was talking of convictions and all that, so it was misquoted.

No, you weren't just kidding. Nobody is being condescending except you. You have come with a full cup, expecting that everyone here will acknowledge your authority or, at least, confirm your assumptions.

Perhaps. I came with some questions to try do some links between some of your concepts and what I know regarding astral projection literature. I don't speak english very well so it's difficult for me to precisely answer to every attacks. Please understand that I don't repudiate the answers of the forum members. But if I understood, they are saying "don't-project-it's-BS-nothing-to-discover-there-it's-just-a-trap/trick-et-cetera" or "real-Work-is-the-abdolute-opposite-of-projecting". I never thought developping AP could interfere with the Work, I always thought it could be complementary. AP isn't practiced and taught in a lot of gnostic societies ? We (members of AP communities) find it a bit hard to swallow such extrem ideas. But okay, if you confirm that, I have to trust you.

 

[Joe]

Ok. So dreams, AP, and all that can just not give accurate information and 'real knowledge', that's what you are saying here?

Since AP is a efficient mean to verify by ourselves the reality of other densities (personal experience)- without being a substitute to 3D lessons (isn't a lesson as well?), and can lead to a more open point of view, I don't see where the problem is.

Please can you explain ?

Hi Jurien,

your belief that "AP is a efficient mean to verify by ourselves the reality of other densities" is where we differ.

It is not our experience that "astral projection" is "efficient" or useful for anything in terms of spiritual, physical or any other type of advancement. The simple reason for this is that it is our working hypothesis that we must first master the problems of "physical life" problems specifically related to human relationships, the emotional and intellectual spheres of human life and their concomittant and usually deeply entrenched programs relating to narcissism, and also the phenomenon of psychopathy (as general topics).

The Work on these areas is very demanding and goes to the very core of what it is to be human at this level, and it is after all, at this level that we find ourselves. So called "spiritual" practices such as AP are for us either a distraction or of a level and nature that we are not yet, as 3D humans, able to navigate with sufficient confidence, mainly because they pertain largely to life outside the body.

It is not hard to see that it would be easy for a person when faced with the difficult work of the 4th way (the details of which I have mentioned above), would be attracted to the idea of "astral projection" as a way to avoid the very difficult work of dealing with programs and relationships etc. Indeed, it is our experience that this is exactly what happens. People do quickly latch on to the promise of "spiritual experiences out of the body" and this becomes their focus. It is for this reason that we have decided that such pursuits are a distraction. It is also important to note that many of the esoteric traditions specify that the alleged non physical worlds are like a "jungle" to those who attempt to access them unprepared. Castaneda talks about this in relation to petty tyrants, and that ONLY when a "warrior" is able to deal successfully with the "petty tyrant" (dealing successfully with petty tyrants involving mastery over oneself and ones programs) can a person even hope to face the "infinite" without "flinching" i.e. without being co-opted, deceived or destroyed.

It is not our understanding that AP is an integral part of 3D life, or rather, it is not our understanding that AP is an integral part of the Work that we are faced with that I have already mentioned. Please understand that this is our understanding that is the fruit of many years of research and we are entitled to that understanding.

We have a responsibility, Jurien, to transmit this tradition in terms that are most easily understood and digested by those who choose to seek them out. We take this responsibility very seriously, and we will strenuously resist any attempts, conscious or unconscious, to distract us or our readers from this task.

You misquoted Gurdjieff in a way that suggests that you have not really studied the 4th Way in depth, or at least not to the extent that we have, or perhaps you simply do not take it as seriously as we do, which is of course fine.

Your position on "astral projection" does appear to be one of someone who has a theory and is seeking to make the facts fit that theory. That is also fine, but please understand that we do not approach things in this way but rather we search for and then take the facts and build theories from them.

We can therefore, as I see it, agree to disagree, and we would appreciate it if you did not attempt to convince us any further on your position, as it is already abundantly clear.

Joe

 

[Jsf]

The simple reason for this is that it is our working hypothesis that we must first master the problems of "physical life" problems specifically related to human relationships, the emotional and intellectual spheres of human life and their concomittant and usually deeply entrenched programs relating to narcissism, and also the phenomenon of psychopathy (as general topics).

Of course, I totally agree, if not, I would'nt be here.
I do not defend the position : "Astral projection permits a SIMPLE AND NICE global view and understanding of reality - with no effort at all !". It cannot be true. Actually, my idea is that AP can help to develop a personal overview - as objective as it can be - of what is reality and how we can cope with it.

So AP can only be a little "extra" that can sometimes help. That's all I pretend to think.

It is not hard to see that it would be easy for a person when faced with the difficult work of the 4th way (the details of which I have mentioned above), would be attracted to the idea of "astral projection" as a way to avoid the very difficult work of dealing with programs and relationships etc.

As I said, in anyway, if correctly considerated, AP can be a "way out" to 3D lessons. Just a supplement as many other things. If AP is seen from a "New Age" view, ok, of course it will be an obvious "buffer" to 4th Way Work.

Indeed, it is our experience that this is exactly what happens. People do quickly latch on to the promise of "spiritual experiences out of the body" and this becomes their focus.

Yes.

3. The Afterworldly

ONCE on a time, Zarathustra also cast his delusion beyond man, like all the afterworldly. The work of a suffering and tortured God, the world then seemed to me.

The dream- and fiction- of a God, the world then seemed to me; colored vapors before the eyes of a divinely suffering one.

Good and evil, and joy and pain, and I and you- colored vapors did they seem to me before creative eyes. The creator wished to look away from himself,- and so he created the world.

Intoxicating joy it is for the sufferer to look away from his suffering and forget himself. Intoxicating joy and self-forgetting, the world once seemed to me.

This world, the eternally imperfect, an eternal contradiction's image and imperfect image- an intoxicating joy to its imperfect creator:- thus the world once seemed to me.

Thus did I too once cast my delusion beyond man, like all the afterworldly. Beyond man?

Ah, my brothers, that God whom I created was man-made and madness, like all gods!

Man he was, and only a poor fragment of man and ego. Out of my own ashes and glow this ghost came to me. And verily, it did not come to me from the beyond!

What happened then, my brothers? I overcame myself, the suffering one; I carried my own ashes to the mountain; I created a brighter flame for myself. And lo! This ghost fled from me!

Now it would be suffering and torment to believe in such ghosts: now it would be suffering and humiliation. Thus I speak to the afterworldly.

It was suffering and impotence- that created all afterworlds; and the brief madness of bliss, which only the greatest sufferer experiences.

Weariness that wants to reach the ultimate with one leap, with a death-leap; a poor ignorant weariness, unwilling even to will any longer: that created all gods and afterworlds.

Believe me, my brothers! It was the body which despaired of the body- it groped with the fingers of the deluded spirit at the ultimate walls.

Believe me, my brothers! It was the body which despaired of the earth- it heard the bowels of being speaking to it.

And then it sought to get through the ultimate walls with its head- and not only with its head - into "the other world."

But that "other world" is well concealed from man, that dehumanized, inhuman world which is a heavenly nothing; and the bowels of being do not speak to man, except as man.

It is difficult to prove all being, and hard to make it speak. Tell me, my brothers, is not the strangest of all things the best proved?

Yes, this ego, with its contradiction and perplexity, speaks most honestly of its being- this creating, willing, valuing ego, which is the measure and value of things.

And this most honest being, the ego- it speaks of the body, and still implies the body, even when it muses and raves and flutters with broken wings.

It learns to speak ever more honestly, the ego; and the more it learns, the more titles and honors does it find for body and earth.

A new pride my ego taught me, and this I teach to men: no longer to bury one's head into the sand of heavenly things, but to carry it freely, a earthly head, which gives meaning to the earth!

I teach men a new will: to will this path which man has followed blindly, and to affirm it- and no longer to slink aside from it, like the sick and decaying!

The sick and decaying- it was they who despised the body and the earth, and invented the heavenly world, and the redeeming blood-drops; but even those sweet and sad poisons they borrowed from the body and the earth!

From their misery they sought escape, and the stars were too remote for them. Then they sighed: "O that there were heavenly paths by which to steal into another existence and into happiness!" Then they contrived for themselves their bypaths and bloody potions!

These ungrateful ones, they now hallucinated their transport beyond the sphere of their body and this earth,. But to what did they owe the convulsion and rapture of this transport? To their body and this earth.

Zarathustra is gentle with the sick. He is not indignant at their modes of consolation and ingratitude. May they become convalescents, men of overcoming, and create higher bodies for themselves!

Neither is Zarathustra indignant at a convalescent who looks tenderly on his delusions, and at midnight steals round the grave of his God; but sickness and a sick body remain even in his tears.

Many sickly ones have always been among those who muse and crave for God; violently they hate the discerning ones, and the latest of virtues, which is honesty.

They always look backward to dark ages: Indeed, delusion and faith were then something different. To rave reason was godlike, and to doubt was sin.

Too well do I know those godlike ones: they want that one should believe them, and that doubt should be sin. But I know too well what they themselves most believe.

Not in afterworlds and redeeming blood-drops: but in the body do they believe most; and their body is for them the thing-in-itself.

But it is a sickly thing to them, and gladly would they shed their skin. Therefore they hearken to the preachers of death, and themselves preach afterworlds.

Hearken rather, my brothers, to the voice of the healthy body; it is a more honest and pure voice.

More honestly and purely speaks the healthy body, perfect and square-built; and it speaks of the meaning of the earth.-


Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche, Part One

Castaneda talks about this in relation to petty tyrants, and that ONLY when a "warrior" is able to deal successfully with the "petty tyrant" (dealing successfully with petty tyrants involving mastery over oneself and ones programs) can a person even hope to face the "infinite" without "flinching" i.e. without being co-opted, deceived or destroyed.

+1

It is not our understanding that AP is an integral part of 3D life, or rather, it is not our understanding that AP is an integral part of the Work that we are faced with that I have already mentioned. Please understand that this is our understanding that is the fruit of many years of research and we are entitled to that understanding.

Ok, why not. I'm not entirely in opposition with this idea. Once 4th Work is fully in progress, AP is not "necessary". But perhaps at the beginning, it can be a introduction to 4th Work. AP can clearly show that we are in a Matrix and that something has to be done to "get out alive".

We have a responsibility, Jurien, to transmit this tradition in terms that are most easily understood and digested by those who choose to seek them out. We take this responsibility very seriously, and we will strenuously resist any attempts, conscious or unconscious, to distract us or our readers from this task.

If readers are aware of this statement, don't you think, with a conscious effort, that they would analyze the nature of AP practice ? By astral travelling, we see that in the astral planes, energy is food. It can experimentally be learned by ourself. So, it gives a clue on what is the human condition on earth and in what sort of position he is. It can give some awareness.

We can therefore, as I see it, agree to disagree, and we would appreciate it if you did not attempt to convince us any further on your position, as it is already abundantly clear.

I didn't tried to convince, just discuss about a point of view...

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Actually, my idea is that AP can help to develop a personal overview - as objective as it can be - of what is reality and how we can cope with it.

How has it helped you and others? What is the basis of this idea, what data supports it, and who has already accomplished this and what are the results?

As I said, in anyway, if correctly considerated, AP can be a "way out" to 3D lessons.

Ok so you don't think the owners of this forum are considering AP correctly? Please refer to my questions above to provide to explain why your consideration of AP is more correct. Otherwise all you say is "my idea" - but what do you want from us? To say "great idea"? Why not take any idea you have an explore it, and if you learn something of value to your progress then you'd have something to show for it? Otherwise how is anything you say anything more than just a blind conviction? And what makes you think that there needs to be a "way out" to 3d lessons - when 3d lessons means you need to be in 3d to learn them?

Just a supplement as many other things. If AP is seen from a "New Age" view, ok, of course it will be an obvious "buffer" to 4th Way Work.

How is this supplement better than hallucinatory drugs (another kind of supplement) that many claim will do the same thing - help you learn about other realities etc?

Ok, why not. I'm not entirely in opposition with this idea. Once 4th Work is fully in progress, AP is not "necessary". But perhaps at the beginning, it can be a introduction to 4th Work. AP can clearly show that we are in a Matrix and that something has to be done to "get out alive".

How many people do you know that suddenly realised this after an AP? Can you provide data to back up anything you just said, or did you just make that up? You say "perhaps" - I can say perhaps at the beginning, studying elephants can be an introduction to 4th way Work. The problem is, you can say that for anything. But I can no more demonstrate how studying elephants as important for 4th way work than you have so far demonstrated with AP. You know what can clearly show that we're in a Matrix? A long hard look at our life on this planet. No need to go to any other realities at all.

If readers are aware of this statement, don't you think, with a conscious effort, that they would analyze the nature of AP practice? By astral travelling, we see that in the astral planes, energy is food. It can experimentally be learned by ourself. So, it gives a clue on what is the human condition on earth and in what sort of position he is. It can give some awareness.

Energy is food on all realities, including ours, and this is common knowledge. You eat because you need energy. Scientists have known that "energy is food" for a very long time, what they do not know is that human emotional energy is food for higher level hyperdimensional STS beings. But again, show me an example of somebody who realised THAT from their AP experience? You have not presented a single valuable insight that is provided by AP, and after having been involved in it and studying it as you say you have, why do you only have ideas? Sounds like a sacred cow instead of a truly valuable resource whose value to learning should be evidenced by those who practice/study it, but from all that I have seen, it is not.

 

[Peam]

Since AP is a efficient mean to verify by ourselves the reality of other densities (personal experience)- without being a substitute to 3D lessons (isn't a lesson as well?), and can lead to a more open point of view, I don't see where the problem is.

To me, astral projecting is like a 3rd grader (us at 3d) finding out that there are a load of other classrooms in a great big universal school, and that some people have found out, and become very excited, that they can go down the corridor and enter into these other rooms to have a look. The C’s would be right in saying anyone can do it. Anyone can ‘walk’ down the corridor can’t they. But just because anyone can, doesn’t mean they should in my opinion.
There are no signs on the doors of these classrooms, so there’s no way for the astral projector to verify which classroom they are experiencing at that particular ‘session’. It might be a higher classroom (4d for example) but on the other hand, for all anyone knows, it could be any multitude of intermediate rooms where any and all sorts of degenerate entities lurk, rubbing their sweaty hands just waiting to for a naïve 3d astral traveler to wander in.
Like a fish out of water, the 3rd grader has no idea of the level of knowledge and modus operandi of the denizens of that plane of existence.

Ok, you're aware that other realities exist. So what. Do you desire to 'live' there or something?

Yes there could well be a lesson in it after all Jurien,
Maybe it’s best not to wander into other classrooms until we have qualified to do so.

 

[Jsf]

How has it helped you and others?

By giving an experimental "confirmation" that getting out of the physical body is possible and that the universe is not limited to the physical. It gives some interest to metaphysics, philosophy, etc. It can be a first step.

Ok so you don't think the owners of this forum are considering AP correctly?

"Correctly" as to say "not considered with a new age point of view".

Please refer to my questions above to provide to explain why your consideration of AP is more correct.

I didn't said I had a correct consideration of AP, I said AP could perhaps be considered with a more correct point of view that with new age desinfo data, et cetera.

And what makes you think that there needs to be a "way out" to 3d lessons - when 3d lessons means you need to be in 3d to learn them?

!! Everybody have argue that my idea of AP was a "way out" for escaping 3D lessons. I'm just re-using the words I read.

How is this supplement better than hallucinatory drugs (another kind of supplement) that many claim will do the same thing - help you learn about other realities etc?

Hallucinatory drugs don't really do the same thing ! Everyone who experienced AP will say that it is very different than a sort of hallucination. First, in AP we can have even a higher level of consciousness than 'in real life'.

How many people do you know that suddenly realised this after an AP?

More than ten in this particular case.

Can you provide data to back up anything you just said, or did you just make that up?

Personal experience + active presence on AP forums.

You know what can clearly show that we're in a Matrix? A long hard look at our life on this planet. No need to go to any other realities at all.

Of course. AP can give some awareness and than, the look will be more clear.
Often I saw this situation :
Somebody who hadn't had any AP : 'Laura theories are unbelievable !'
Somebody after having an AP : 'Ok, I succeed to get out of my body, there is effectively other densities, energy can be food, Ok, I have to read Laura's writings'.
Without AP, it's more like an hypothesis, and AP gives a personal experience that can help the reasoning power.
If one wants to 'know', to experience, not to 'believe', AP gives a super-proof of the existence of other worlds. AP can be a "starter" to persons who are disappointed with concepts, thoeries, beliefs, etc. That what I recorded by being on AP forums and teaching AP technics to others.

Energy is food on all realities, including ours, and this is common knowledge. You eat because you need energy. Scientists have known that "energy is food" for a very long time, what they do not know is that human emotional energy is food for higher level hyperdimensional STS beings.

Because they don't think that energy could be "so easily" eatable. That what we learn by astral traveling.

But again, show me an example of somebody who realised THAT from their AP experience?

At least, more than the half of AP authors. Monroe, Bruce, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Joe]

The problem with astral projection or other "phenomena" is that they are subjective experiences and the alleged benefits that one derives from them cannot be verified by another person. Such practices therefore are of little help to others.

Lets say we all decided to engage in attempts to "astrally project". We would report back our varied and different success/experiences, and then what? With no way to verify that our experiences or those of others were real or had any merit, how does it serve others? One person, like you for example, may get a lot out of it, you may think that it is benefiting you, you may even make this claim to others, and then want others to share in the same experience, but there is NO WAY that you can give another person the experience or benefit that you claim to derive and there is no way to accurately cross-reference and come to an objective conclusion.

Here, we try to simultaneously help ourselves and others by sharing and teaching about matters that are relevant to millions of other human beings because we struggle with and suffer because of them on a daily basis. These are matters which CAN be successfully cross-referenced and objectively verified as true and relevant and therefore of benefit to others.

Being as it is a fundamentally subjective experience, with the motivation for engaging in it largely selfish, a person's experiences with "astral projection" are very limited in their capacity to be of service to others.

Each person is of course free to experiment as they see fit with whatever they like, but it is rather self-centered to take one's subjective experience and try to claim, however subtly, that there is objective or universal merit in it (and this IS what you are doing vis a vis your experiences with "astral projection"). To do so here is in fact an attempt to use this forum to bolster or validate your own subjective beliefs or experiences or interests.

Again I would ask you to show some consideration for others by not laboring this point or attempting to convince members of this forum of the universal or objective benefits of your subjective experiences.

We all have a lot of hard work in front of us, please show some understanding here and TRUE consideration for others.

Joe

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

How has it helped you and others?

By giving an experimental "confirmation" that getting out of the physical body is possible and that the universe is not limited to the physical. It gives some interest to metaphysics, philosophy, etc. It can be a first step.

But what does having this confirmation help you with? I think it's much more important to remove any conviction that it is impossible, because assumptions block learning. But once you drop that assumption and consider the implications, how does having confirmation teach you anything other than what you already know if you pay attention anyway? Basically all religious and new age people are very much open to the idea and many of them have experience that confirm it - the idea that the universe is much more than just the physical reality, but this doesn't help them any no matter how much they believe it or how many spiritual experiences of confirmation they have - they are still programmed, still mechanical, still fully asleep and manipulated left and right.

"Correctly" as to say "not considered with a new age point of view".

But they're not rejecting this idea because it is "new age", so is channeling but that experiment nevertheless was conducted despite it being a popular "new age" activity. The devil is in the details.

First, in AP we can have even a higher level of consciousness than 'in real life'.

But why do we need to escape "real life" to begin with? And what do you mean "higher level of consciousness" - please define that. If it is indeed "higher", then what insight into human existence other than "some beings eat energy" and "other worlds besides physical exist too" does it give you? What knowledge do you gain that you can apply to REAL LIFE, that helps you understand the realm that we do inhabit any better?

Somebody who hadn't had any AP : 'Laura theories are unbelievable !'
Somebody after having an AP : 'Ok, I succeed to get out of my body, there is effectively other densities, energy can be food, Ok, I have to read Laura's writings'.

No one asks anyone to believe anything - Laura's "theories" are evidenced in volumes of references and data. And you say that astral projection makes you realise that there are other densities? How so? Which densities have you seen and how do you know they are "densities" at all? Again it sounds like you are just making up data and/or rationalize the validity and usefulness of what sounds more and more like a sacred cow.

 

[Jsf]

The problem with astral projection or other "phenomena" is that they are subjective experiences and the alleged benefits that one derives from them cannot be verified by another person.

But it isn't essential, since we can verify by ourselves.

Lets say we all decided to engage in attempts to "astrally project". We would report back our varied and different success/experiences

No, because in all conscious projections, there are similarities.
And I did not said that AP will be beneficial for you. It just can help when it's required.

With no way to verify that our experiences or those of others were real or had any merit, how does it serve others?

We can verify by ourselves ! Exemple : one do an OBE, look at some place while out of body, and verify after if it corresponds. There is many ways to do some "reality checks". And that's generally the first thing we do.

but there is NO WAY that you can give another person the experience or benefit that you claim to derive

The persons who succeed to project also claimed it was a great benefit.

Being as it is a fundamentally subjective experience, with the motivation for engaging in it largely selfish, a person's experiences with "astral projection" are very limited in their capacity to be of service to others.

Of course, AP is just AP. It's not all-white or all-black.

Each person is of course free to experiment as they see fit with whatever they like, but it is rather self-centered to take one's subjective experience and try to claim, however subtly, that there is objective or universal merit in it (and this IS what you are doing vis a vis your experiences with "astral projection").

!!! No, I never tried to get any credit with writing my personal experiences... I was just asking some questions : 1/ AP is dangerous for the physical body ? 2/ what differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought ?
So what is self-centered here ?

To do so here is in fact an attempt to use this forum to bolster or validate your own subjective beliefs or experiences or interests.

I was attempting to find answers and links between C's material and OBE literature.

We all have a lot of hard work in front of us, please show some understanding here and TRUE consideration for others.

But what does having this confirmation help you with?

Awareness and experimental personal proof that we're not only physical.

but this doesn't help them any no matter how much they believe it or how many spiritual experiences of confirmation they have - they are still programmed, still mechanical, still fully asleep and manipulated left and right.

The fact in itself, no, does not help. But it can bring to some other thougts, other interests. It can start a "chain reaction", the result can be awakening of this sleep state.

But why do we need to escape "real life" to begin with? And what do you mean "higher level of consciousness" - please define that.

"Hyperconsciousness", like Laura describes in her book "The high strangeness". Being "aware of all".

Q: (L) A few years ago I was meditating on my bed and I did what I call
“zoning� . It is an indescribable state. I kind of bobbed back to the surface for
a moment because I experienced a buzzing in my head that sounded like an
electrical transformer. Words came into my head that were like: “The
presence is approaching� , and I thought immediately of Shekina, or the
“forerunner� of the “presence of God� .
I was a little agitated because I was not positioned in the way I would have
liked to be to receive any experience or visitation. The last thing I remember
is making adjustments in my position and then nothing more until I just sort
of came to with an intense thirst. I don’t know how much time passed, but it
must have been a considerable period to be so thirsty.
The bed was adjacent to a wall between the bedroom and the bathroom with
just a walk space. I had to be careful not to bump my head on the wall when I
was getting up. I got out of the bed and was quite startled to discover that my
head and shoulders passed right through the wall into the bathroom!. As soon
as I noticed that, I started to pay attention to what else I was experiencing.
I noticed that all physical objects appeared as transparent slides of
shimmering and deeply intense color and light. The walls of the house were
merely shimmering curtains of light. I could see the children in their beds in
other rooms in the house, their bodies were light. I could see through the
house to the outside and it was not darkness as we perceive it. I was aware
that it was night, but trees, plants and other objects were apparent by their
appearance as color and light. I had a brief thought of something distant and
it was as though my vision was telescopic and zoomed onto it
instantaneously. I was also aware that my vision was 360, that is, I could see
in all directions at once.
All of this happened very quickly, or so it seemed, and I realized that I was
not in the body. That thought startled me and the instant I was startled, that is,
felt an inkling of fear, I snapped back in like a rubber band. I discovered
myself exactly as I had been prior to hearing the buzzing, not having actually
made those adjustments in my position that I remembered.
A: You experienced a bleedthrough of 4th density.
Q: (T) When you started to explain about the trance state, you said: “What I
call zoned out, I can’t explain it� . That’s the same thing the Cassiopaeans say
when we ask them to explain what 4th density is like!
(J) Yes, we have no physical frame of reference.
(L) Yes, I can’t say I wasn’t unaware, because I was intensely aware of
everything. And yet, I can’t say I was focused on any one thing, because I’m
not.

(p.200-201)

What knowledge do you gain that you can apply to REAL LIFE, that helps you understand the realm that we do inhabit any better?

It gives an impulsion. Knowledge can be gain after it, and, anyway, if one wants to KNOW, one is not satisfied with only the experience but wants more than that. Astral projection can be a part of the research, work.

No one asks anyone to believe anything - Laura's "theories" are evidenced in volumes of references and data. And you say that astral projection makes you realise that there are other densities? How so?

By some experimentation and exploration out of body.


Again, why did Seth promote Projections of Consciousness ?

 

[Beau]

As I said, in anyway, if correctly considerated, AP can be a "way out" to 3D lessons.

Ok so you don't think the owners of this forum are considering AP correctly? Please refer to my questions above to provide to explain why your consideration of AP is more correct. Otherwise all you say is "my idea" - but what do you want from us? To say "great idea"? Why not take any idea you have an explore it, and if you learn something of value to your progress then you'd have something to show for it? Otherwise how is anything you say anything more than just a blind conviction? And what makes you think that there needs to be a "way out" to 3d lessons - when 3d lessons means you need to be in 3d to learn them?

Exactly. It looks as though Jsf is identifying with AP for a certain purpose. Is it for an easy way out? But their is not a way out of 3D lessons. You can't avoid them, no matter how much you attempt to convince yourself otherwise.

The problem with astral projection or other "phenomena" is that they are subjective experiences and the alleged benefits that one derives from them cannot be verified by another person.

But it isn't essential, since we can verify by ourselves.

You should trust the objectivity of a group of people much more than your own. If you read and understood Gurdjieff then you would know this. Selective choosing of G also smells like you are running on preconceived notions. Wishful thinking will get ya every time.

 

[Jsf]

Exactly. It looks as though Jsf is identifying with AP for a certain purpose.

Which ?

But their is not a way out of 3D lessons. You can't avoid them, no matter how much you attempt to convince yourself otherwise.

I totally agree with that. So for what purposes I would be "identifying" myself to AP ?

 

[ark]

!!! No, I never tried to get any credit with writing my personal experiences... I was just asking some questions : 1/ AP is dangerous for the physical body ? 2/ what differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought ?
So what is self-centered here ?

You are asking questions to which you certainly know the answers:

1) "AP is dangerous for the physical body ?". Answer: It can be be. Why? You can easily find yourself why, after you do some little research and thinking.

2) "what differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought ?" Answer: soul-body is not the same as "thought centers" - whatever they are. No research and very little thinking is needed here.

3) "what is self-centered here ?" Answer: you are asking other people questions to which YOU yourself can easily know the answers. Thus you value your time more than you value time of other people. This is a sign of being self-centered :)

 

[Laura]

The problem with astral projection or other "phenomena" is that they are subjective experiences and the alleged benefits that one derives from them cannot be verified by another person.

But it isn't essential, since we can verify by ourselves.

And therein lies the problem. Without objective verification, you can be deceived. This is one of the main subjects of the Wave. As a hypnotherapist for 25 years or so, I found myself working with many individuals who followed this subjective path right into a trap. The results were not pretty. Perhaps you might like to listen to the podcasts on channeling and possession and so on.

Lets say we all decided to engage in attempts to "astrally project". We would report back our varied and different success/experiences

No, because in all conscious projections, there are similarities.
And I did not said that AP will be beneficial for you. It just can help when it's required.

And psychic experiments can also help a person to become possessed.

With no way to verify that our experiences or those of others were real or had any merit, how does it serve others?

We can verify by ourselves ! Exemple : one do an OBE, look at some place while out of body, and verify after if it corresponds. There is many ways to do some "reality checks". And that's generally the first thing we do.

So, what's the point? As Ibn al-Arabi said, the only true esoteric work is work that is of practical benefit to others. As we said, if this floats your boat, go for it. We are concerned with work that is of practical benefit to others in their real lives, not imaginary ones.

but there is NO WAY that you can give another person the experience or benefit that you claim to derive

The persons who succeed to project also claimed it was a great benefit.

And many persons who succeeded and claimed it was of benefit and taught it to others often ended up on my couch undergoing an exorcism, too.

Being as it is a fundamentally subjective experience, with the motivation for engaging in it largely selfish, a person's experiences with "astral projection" are very limited in their capacity to be of service to others.

Of course, AP is just AP. It's not all-white or all-black.

So again, what's the point? You agree that there is a very limited (or non-existent) capacity to be of service to others, and yet this is what you choose to put your time and energy into. That's okay, but please take it elsewhere.

Each person is of course free to experiment as they see fit with whatever they like, but it is rather self-centered to take one's subjective experience and try to claim, however subtly, that there is objective or universal merit in it (and this IS what you are doing vis a vis your experiences with "astral projection").

!!! No, I never tried to get any credit with writing my personal experiences... I was just asking some questions : 1/ AP is dangerous for the physical body ? 2/ what differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought ?
So what is self-centered here ?

And everyone is trying to point out to you that there are many reasons NOT to engage in or promote this activity. Yes, AP can be dangerous for the physical body. More than that, it can be dangerous for the spirit body. Still more serious, your own pursuit of it is detrimental to your own spiritual growth as well as the spiritual growth of others. This is what is being said to you in a number of ways in answer to your questions.

As for "what are the differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought," there can be a great deal of difference since you are talking about apples and oranges. Here, rather than reproduce the efforts that have already been made, I'll just refer you to Secret History which covers the issue of thought centers more thoroughly.

To do so here is in fact an attempt to use this forum to bolster or validate your own subjective beliefs or experiences or interests.

I was attempting to find answers and links between C's material and OBE literature.

You received your answers, didn't like them. There are very few links between Cs material and OBE literature since Cs material emanates from and discusses densities and realms that OBE literature is generally not even aware of. As a hypnotherapist I have experimentally induced all kinds of states in other people and engaged them in "viewings" of different kinds. For the most part the results were as Edgar Cayce once described: "A dead Presbyterian is just that: a dead Presbyterian." Most - if not all - of what you see, experience, etc, at those levels of consciousness is still very, very LOW level experience. It is very much like remote viewing though in the case of remote viewing, there can be viewing of higher levels if the level of the viewer is "higher". However, that is problematical if your work is not focused on spiritual development but rather on phenomena. For example:

Q: There are people who claim to 'remote
view,' and I think that it is possible and probable. In
specific, when a person is remote viewing, are they able
to view other densities when doing this?

A: Sometimes.

Q: Is there any way to tell when you are viewing other
densities as opposed to 3rd density? Is there any
distinguishing characteristic?

A: That would be up to the awareness of the viewer.

Q: Is a person who is capable of remote viewing in higher
densities, generally capable of perceiving higher
densities in a 'normal' state?

A: Maybe.

Q: So, if a person is unaware of higher densities, are they
still able to remote view higher densities?

A: The viewer must have a "clue" as to the view.

Q: What do you mean 'a clue?'

A: Review your previous question.

Q: I see. So, it IS connected to the ability to perceive
higher densities in general awareness. Okay, in
particular, is it a condition of remote viewing higher
densities, assuming one has the general awareness of
higher densities, that one is able to look in all
directions at once; that is, to sense oneself as a 'point'
of consciousness and to perceive material reality as being
somewhat amorphous or fluid; is THAT evidence of viewing
higher densities?

A: It could be.

Q: Is there anything that one could look for in a remote
viewing exercise that would clearly indicate that one is
NOT viewing higher densities?

A: These questions are a bit elementary for you, when one
thinks of that which you already know.

Q: Well, my opinion is that, depending upon the scenario that
is presented, and the way it is presented, that one could
tell. And, there are a great many people who are doing
remote viewing, who are claiming to be remote viewing
higher densities, and getting information that is clear to
me that it is what somebody at higher densities WANTS them
to think, or WANTS them to see and MANIPULATES them to
see.

A: It is a two way street. ... Expectations... ? Anticipation... ? Prejudice... ?
What have we told you?

Q: Is it possible that, when one person gives a target to
another for a remote viewing exercise, say, as just a code
number, can the person doing the remote viewing use this
exchange as a means of locking in on the frequency of the
person giving the assignment?

A: Close.

Q: So, if I were to give an assignment to someone, this
person could then lock in on our frequency here and remote
view us?

A: Maybe. Try it.

Q: Well, Ark doesn't want me to because of his work. He
thinks everybody is a potential agent.

A: Spies do not ask.

Q: I just have a lot of reservations about remote viewing in
general. I think that it is just a different name for
practicing clairvoyance. And, I am not so sure that
people who claim to be able to do it as they claim, are
really able to do it. In other words, it is like a
talent, some are better than others.

A: Yes, you are right.

But what does having this confirmation help you with?

Awareness and experimental personal proof that we're not only physical.

Say what?! You are putting yourself and others at risk for THAT??? !! A question that has been answered literally thousands, if not millions, of times?

I will tell you a secret: if your question is a burning sincere one, and you ask the Universe, your very life will give you the answer. If you seek to extract the answer from the Universe by force, you will end up like Prometheus...

It would probably be very instructive for you to research the history of those who asked such questions and their fate.

but this doesn't help them any no matter how much they believe it or how many spiritual experiences of confirmation they have - they are still programmed, still mechanical, still fully asleep and manipulated left and right.

The fact in itself, no, does not help. But it can bring to some other thougts, other interests. It can start a "chain reaction", the result can be awakening of this sleep state.

See above. If you seek to extract the answer from the Universe by force, you will end up like Prometheus...

But why do we need to escape "real life" to begin with? And what do you mean "higher level of consciousness" - please define that.

"Hyperconsciousness", like Laura describes in her book "The high strangeness". Being "aware of all".

Perhaps it would do you some good to know something about my life overall, my work, etc. As the Cs once said to someone who wanted to achieve what I have:

Q: (L) Okay, I'll shut up! (BRH) Is there any way I can
contact you guys directly?

A: Well, D***, only if you present yourself into the
presence of these 3rd densities here. Remember, their
request was hard earned...
One here has literally turned the world upside down in search
of the greatest truths for all of humanity, much to her
potential peril. And the [other] one here had to endure
almost unimaginable hardships and tests of stamina in
order to realize his destined path of bringing your 3rd
density realm to the brink of 4th density transitional
adjustment. So, the path is open to you. Wanna follow?!?

As I discuss at great length in Secret History, one of the keys is activation of DNA potential. How is that done? "Suffering activates neuro-chemicals which turn on DNA receptors." It is what Gurdjieff refers to as "the struggle between yes and no." It is what Castaneda refers to as the "three phase progression," or learning to deal with petty tyrants.

There is no Free Lunch, and if you think there is, YOU are lunch!

Q: (L) A few years ago I was meditating on my bed and I did what I call
“zoning� . It is an indescribable state.

<snipped>

A: You experienced a bleedthrough of 4th density.

<snipped>

(p.200-201)

Indeed, and as I said, study my life if you wish to understand how I am able to do it and also why I place my focus elsewhere now. I am needed here, not there.

What knowledge do you gain that you can apply to REAL LIFE, that helps you understand the realm that we do inhabit any better?

It gives an impulsion. Knowledge can be gain after it, and, anyway, if one wants to KNOW, one is not satisfied with only the experience but wants more than that. Astral projection can be a part of the research, work.

It can also be the first step on the wrong path if it is sought deliberately. See comments about Prometheus above.

No one asks anyone to believe anything - Laura's "theories" are evidenced in volumes of references and data. And you say that astral projection makes you realise that there are other densities? How so?

By some experimentation and exploration out of body.

Which very likely has nothing to do with other densities. The human mind is so easily deceived and that is the one thing that I keep uppermost in my own thinking and why doing "paranormal" stuff counts for only 10% of what we do. The other 90% is research, verification, hard work.

Again, why did Seth promote Projections of Consciousness ?

Keep in mind that Seth was just another dead dude. As the Cs commented about Seth:

Q: (L) Who was Seth, channeled by Jane Roberts?

A: Higher plane earth spirit.

Q: (L) Were the teachings in the Seth material accurate and
was that a good source?

A: Yes but rapidly becoming obsolete as you move toward new
reality.

 

[Jsf]

Ok, thanks for your answer. I was a bit doing the "devil's advocate" so I could clarify my thoughts.

 

[Chulin]

In the beginning of the thread you wrote:

The main autors on astral projection, Robert Monroe ("INSPECS" in Monroe books look like Cassiopeans... I noticed same expressions... ("us in the future", by exemple)), Sylvan Muldoon, William Buhlman, ... they all claim that astral projection is even safer than to cross a road.

If after having read all the replies that were given to you, you still think this, then I find it hard to believe that your intention was only to ask about the safety of AP.

Firstly, there is a big difference between Monroe's "Inspecs" and the C's, I think: I don't recall the Inspecs encouraging someone to do research on their own, to network, to think with a hammer, and much less to learn the lessons of this realm. They are more like "balls of light" helping you wonder around in their territory, without much explanation. At least in what I've read so far. I apologize if this is not the case in all of his books.

Secondly, AP shouldn't be needed in order to realize that there is something else apart from the physical body! It's too much risk for that, only. Besides, OBE are usually accompanied by the thought: "Whoah, I can have access to other realities, I must be "spiritually advanced", "important"; etc". If you've really read Gurdjieff the way we do, then you should know that there is no easy way. I suggest you read "Life is real only then when I am", in the passage where he explains why he stopped using his "super powers" to dedicate his life to a more scientific experiment.

Finally, AP remains something selfish, in the sense that only the person who experiences it "benefits" (at what price?) from it. We could all start doing it and nothing would change in our comprehension of THIS reality.

Anyway, it might well have helped you in the ways you describe. But NOW, what do you do with the realization that there is something else apart from the body? If you only promote this practice and your actions don't further, it is better to not even realize that there is something else!
AP is "no-action". You just observe something that MIGHT be the unknown. But it can only be taken as a working hypothesis because there is no way to prove it (even if you say that many people see the same, there are still no cold data and it could be something telepathic going on there).

Instead, the Work and trying to understand the dynamics played in the world we live in is the first step towards DOING. Once you have the information and understand a bit better how the system works, you can start applying it to benefit others and this might become real Knowledge that protects. You see? There can be no comparison between doing the Work and AP. You don't need the "help" of AP to do the Work, and in fact, it can even prevent you from learning the lessons you have to learn!

Or so I think...