Jsf said:
The problem with astral projection or other "phenomena" is that they are subjective experiences and the alleged benefits that one derives from them cannot be verified by another person.
But it isn't essential, since we can verify by ourselves.
And therein lies the problem. Without objective verification, you can be deceived. This is one of the main subjects of the Wave. As a hypnotherapist for 25 years or so, I found myself working with many individuals who followed this subjective path right into a trap. The results were not pretty. Perhaps you might like to listen to the podcasts on channeling and possession and so on.
Jsf said:
Lets say we all decided to engage in attempts to "astrally project". We would report back our varied and different success/experiences
No, because in all conscious projections, there are similarities.
And I did not said that AP will be beneficial for you. It just can help when it's required.
And psychic experiments can also help a person to become possessed.
Jsf said:
With no way to verify that our experiences or those of others were real or had any merit, how does it serve others?
We can verify by ourselves ! Exemple : one do an OBE, look at some place while out of body, and verify after if it corresponds. There is many ways to do some "reality checks". And that's generally the first thing we do.
So, what's the point? As Ibn al-Arabi said, the only true esoteric work is work that is of practical benefit to others. As we said, if this floats your boat, go for it. We are concerned with work that is of practical benefit to others in their real lives, not imaginary ones.
Jsf said:
but there is NO WAY that you can give another person the experience or benefit that you claim to derive
The persons who succeed to project also claimed it was a great benefit.
And many persons who succeeded and claimed it was of benefit and taught it to others often ended up on my couch undergoing an exorcism, too.
Jsf said:
Being as it is a fundamentally subjective experience, with the motivation for engaging in it largely selfish, a person's experiences with "astral projection" are very limited in their capacity to be of service to others.
Of course, AP is just AP. It's not all-white or all-black.
So again, what's the point? You agree that there is a very limited (or non-existent) capacity to be of service to others, and yet this is what you choose to put your time and energy into. That's okay, but please take it elsewhere.
Jsf said:
Each person is of course free to experiment as they see fit with whatever they like, but it is rather self-centered to take one's subjective experience and try to claim, however subtly, that there is objective or universal merit in it (and this IS what you are doing vis a vis your experiences with "astral projection").
!!! No, I never tried to get any credit with writing my personal experiences... I was just asking some questions : 1/ AP is dangerous for the physical body ? 2/ what differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought ?
So what is self-centered here ?
And everyone is trying to point out to you that there are many reasons NOT to engage in or promote this activity. Yes, AP can be dangerous for the physical body. More than that, it can be dangerous for the spirit body. Still more serious, your own pursuit of it is detrimental to your own spiritual growth as well as the spiritual growth of others. This is what is being said to you in a number of ways in answer to your questions.
As for "what are the differences between soul-body separation and splits between centers of thought," there can be a great deal of difference since you are talking about apples and oranges. Here, rather than reproduce the efforts that have already been made, I'll just refer you to Secret History which covers the issue of thought centers more thoroughly.
Jsf said:
To do so here is in fact an attempt to use this forum to bolster or validate your own subjective beliefs or experiences or interests.
I was attempting to find answers and links between C's material and OBE literature.
You received your answers, didn't like them. There are very few links between Cs material and OBE literature since Cs material emanates from and discusses densities and realms that OBE literature is generally not even aware of. As a hypnotherapist I have experimentally induced all kinds of states in other people and engaged them in "viewings" of different kinds. For the most part the results were as Edgar Cayce once described: "A dead Presbyterian is just that: a dead Presbyterian." Most - if not all - of what you see, experience, etc, at those levels of consciousness is still very, very LOW level experience. It is very much like remote viewing though in the case of remote viewing, there can be viewing of higher levels if the level of the viewer is "higher". However, that is problematical if your work is not focused on spiritual development but rather on phenomena. For example:
Q: There are people who claim to 'remote
view,' and I think that it is possible and probable. In
specific, when a person is remote viewing, are they able
to view other densities when doing this?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Is there any way to tell when you are viewing other
densities as opposed to 3rd density? Is there any
distinguishing characteristic?
A: That would be up to the awareness of the viewer.
Q: Is a person who is capable of remote viewing in higher
densities, generally capable of perceiving higher
densities in a 'normal' state?
A: Maybe.
Q: So, if a person is unaware of higher densities, are they
still able to remote view higher densities?
A: The viewer must have a "clue" as to the view.
Q: What do you mean 'a clue?'
A: Review your previous question.
Q: I see. So, it IS connected to the ability to perceive
higher densities in general awareness. Okay, in
particular, is it a condition of remote viewing higher
densities, assuming one has the general awareness of
higher densities, that one is able to look in all
directions at once; that is, to sense oneself as a 'point'
of consciousness and to perceive material reality as being
somewhat amorphous or fluid; is THAT evidence of viewing
higher densities?
A: It could be.
Q: Is there anything that one could look for in a remote
viewing exercise that would clearly indicate that one is
NOT viewing higher densities?
A: These questions are a bit elementary for you, when one
thinks of that which you already know.
Q: Well, my opinion is that, depending upon the scenario that
is presented, and the way it is presented, that one could
tell. And, there are a great many people who are doing
remote viewing, who are claiming to be remote viewing
higher densities, and getting information that is clear to
me that it is what somebody at higher densities WANTS them
to think, or WANTS them to see and MANIPULATES them to
see.
A: It is a two way street. ... Expectations... ? Anticipation... ? Prejudice... ?
What have we told you?
Q: Is it possible that, when one person gives a target to
another for a remote viewing exercise, say, as just a code
number, can the person doing the remote viewing use this
exchange as a means of locking in on the frequency of the
person giving the assignment?
A: Close.
Q: So, if I were to give an assignment to someone, this
person could then lock in on our frequency here and remote
view us?
A: Maybe. Try it.
Q: Well, Ark doesn't want me to because of his work. He
thinks everybody is a potential agent.
A: Spies do not ask.
Q: I just have a lot of reservations about remote viewing in
general. I think that it is just a different name for
practicing clairvoyance. And, I am not so sure that
people who claim to be able to do it as they claim, are
really able to do it. In other words, it is like a
talent, some are better than others.
A: Yes, you are right.
Jsf said:
But what does having this confirmation help you with?
Awareness and experimental personal proof that we're not only physical.
Say what?! You are putting yourself and others at risk for THAT??? !! A question that has been answered literally thousands, if not millions, of times?
I will tell you a secret: if your question is a burning sincere one, and you ask the Universe, your very life will give you the answer. If you seek to extract the answer from the Universe by force, you will end up like Prometheus...
It would probably be very instructive for you to research the history of those who asked such questions and their fate.
Jsf said:
but this doesn't help them any no matter how much they believe it or how many spiritual experiences of confirmation they have - they are still programmed, still mechanical, still fully asleep and manipulated left and right.
The fact in itself, no, does not help. But it can bring to some other thougts, other interests. It can start a "chain reaction", the result can be awakening of this sleep state.
See above. If you seek to extract the answer from the Universe by force, you will end up like Prometheus...
Jsf said:
But why do we need to escape "real life" to begin with? And what do you mean "higher level of consciousness" - please define that.
"Hyperconsciousness", like Laura describes in her book "The high strangeness". Being "aware of all".
Perhaps it would do you some good to know something about my life overall, my work, etc. As the Cs once said to someone who wanted to achieve what I have:
Q: (L) Okay, I'll shut up! (BRH) Is there any way I can
contact you guys directly?
A: Well, D***, only if you present yourself into the
presence of these 3rd densities here. Remember, their
request was hard earned...
One here has literally turned the world upside down in search
of the greatest truths for all of humanity, much to her
potential peril. And the [other] one here had to endure
almost unimaginable hardships and tests of stamina in
order to realize his destined path of bringing your 3rd
density realm to the brink of 4th density transitional
adjustment. So, the path is open to you. Wanna follow?!?
As I discuss at great length in Secret History, one of the keys is activation of DNA potential. How is that done? "Suffering activates neuro-chemicals which turn on DNA receptors." It is what Gurdjieff refers to as "the struggle between yes and no." It is what Castaneda refers to as the "three phase progression," or learning to deal with petty tyrants.
There is no Free Lunch, and if you think there is, YOU are lunch!
Jsf said:
Q: (L) A few years ago I was meditating on my bed and I did what I call
“zoning� . It is an indescribable state.
<snipped>
A: You experienced a bleedthrough of 4th density.
<snipped>
(p.200-201)
Indeed, and as I said, study my life if you wish to understand how I am able to do it and also why I place my focus elsewhere now. I am needed here, not there.
Jsf said:
What knowledge do you gain that you can apply to REAL LIFE, that helps you understand the realm that we do inhabit any better?
It gives an impulsion. Knowledge can be gain after it, and, anyway, if one wants to KNOW, one is not satisfied with only the experience but wants more than that. Astral projection can be a part of the research, work.
It can also be the first step on the wrong path if it is sought deliberately. See comments about Prometheus above.
Jsf said:
No one asks anyone to believe anything - Laura's "theories" are evidenced in volumes of references and data. And you say that astral projection makes you realise that there are other densities? How so?
By some experimentation and exploration out of body.
Which very likely has nothing to do with other densities. The human mind is so easily deceived and that is the one thing that I keep uppermost in my own thinking and why doing "paranormal" stuff counts for only 10% of what we do. The other 90% is research, verification, hard work.
Jsf said:
Again, why did Seth promote Projections of Consciousness ?
Keep in mind that Seth was just another dead dude. As the Cs commented about Seth:
Q: (L) Who was Seth, channeled by Jane Roberts?
A: Higher plane earth spirit.
Q: (L) Were the teachings in the Seth material accurate and
was that a good source?
A: Yes but rapidly becoming obsolete as you move toward new
reality.