Atreides and "The List"

knowledge_of_self

The Living Force
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

I've been thinking about Atreides lately. I hope he is doing well in his recovery. Can someone please give us an update on his condition?

Thanks! :flowers:
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

Deedlet said:
I've been thinking about Atreides lately. I hope he is doing well in his recovery. Can someone please give us an update on his condition?

Thanks! :flowers:
He is slowly improving, but we are being super careful. It may take months for full recovery.
 

knowledge_of_self

The Living Force
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

Laura said:
Deedlet said:
I've been thinking about Atreides lately. I hope he is doing well in his recovery. Can someone please give us an update on his condition?

Thanks! :flowers:
He is slowly improving, but we are being super careful. It may take months for full recovery.
Thanks Laura. It's good to hear that he's improving. :thup: And totally understandable about being extra careful, these things take time. I pray for strength for all of you :hug:
 

Gandalf

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

Laura said:
Deedlet said:
I've been thinking about Atreides lately. I hope he is doing well in his recovery. Can someone please give us an update on his condition?

Thanks! :flowers:
He is slowly improving, but we are being super careful. It may take months for full recovery.
:jawdrop: So sad to read that. Hoping that the C's can give some hints to accelerate his recovery. :love:
 

SeekinTruth

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

Yeah, good to hear he's improving (although, unfortunately, slowly). And it DOES definitely make sense to be super careful. Maybe you'll discover even more info about his condition and be able to make some faster progress/make sure there are no relapses. Even though this was a shocking event, and totally unexpected, some of the new knowledge gain was also totally unexpected. So maybe there will be a way to improve his health (and especially the pain) in the longer term by pulling some of these strings, so to speak, that have come up.

Another thought that came up is that whenever he's feeling good and also rested, he should probably do some of the things he loves to do. His creative writing is one thing that comes to mind. Also I read on one of the threads that he's learning or trying to improve playing guitar. If he's in the mood, he can just mess around playing the guitar, etc. Things like that tend to have a positive effect (definitely with me).

Hoping for continued improvement and reading Atreides' humorous and creative writing again soon. :)
 

zlyja

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010

Glad to hear that he's at least improving. It's terrible how long this illness has been going on; may DCM give him the strength to recover, and protect him from further attack. Especially when you're all doing 5 things at once!

:hug:
 
Re: Re: Session 12 December 2010



Hope you all feeling better!

We thinking of you here at the cancer clinic and sending our best wishes!
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: Atriedes and "The List"

Laura's NOTE: Now, I will paste in here the post Atreides wrote in the "Life Without Bread" thread about his experience. It is useful to go to that thread and read it in its entirety, or at least from this post forward:

Atreides said:
Hey All,

L, Ailen, Psyche and others have been mentioning this thread a lot to me in the hopes that I would take the initiative to post on here about The List, seeing as I am pretty dense, I received a letter in the mail today signed by them with tediously patronizing directions on how to log into the forum and post a message. There were also some threats of bodily harm and a small hair voodoo doll with a small sign reading "OR ELSE."

Being the perceptive and high functioning person that I am, I got their subtle hints and hopped on over to this thread to see what's up.

The List (as opposed to the list, a list, shopping list, unordered list, and sales list) is a mysterious and powerful thing, mysterious in that no-one knows where it came from or how it works, or what's on it exactly, except that you can be pretty sure that whatever you are thinking about putting in your mouth is not on The List.

I should give a bit of backstory to The List, and talk some about its genesis, but I won't bore you with a) things you know or b) things you'll have to pretend to care about for the sake of being polite.

I was fat for a long time, I tried everything to not be fat. Being fat is hard. Wanted to die, almost died, didn't die. 27 years of my life now casually summed up in three sentences, let's skip to the good stuff.

There I was, sitting at my computer, I had not so long ago gotten out of the hospital where stuff took place (almost dieing painfully, almost having my entire colon removed, luckily due to Psyche, Ailen, and L fighting with the Doc to try Anti-biotics first, that wasn't the case) that has already been talked about, and I may write about at some point in a future piece I am calling "Atreides 'End' or The six million dollar colon", and I was in a slump. I had come up with a pretty serious problem.

I had never really thought about why I was fat, at least not in the sense of real thinking. Usually when you think about something, it's really just like playing a recording of other peoples thoughts and ideas, at least I think that applies to me, I won't suggest that other people suffer that same problem, but most of what goes through your head are all kinds of pop ideas about fatness, and meaningfulness, meaningless platitudes (it's what's on the inside that counts) and so on and so forth.

At this point I was pretty much back where I had always been in regards to my body, feeling essentially weak and worthless, unloved and unliked, and more importantly not deserving of love and like. It's really important to understand these two basic things:

1. The mind is not about rational stuff, and neither are feelings, especially for people who have a noticeable problem, like over-eating, over drinking and so on. The worst thing you can say to a person who thinks they don't deserve love is "I love you just the way you are." Because now all they think is that you're a liar. It's not supposed to make sense, in fact, the less sense it makes the deeper the problem is rooted and the worse you make it by trying to apply rational arguments to the problem.

2. Somethings are so deeply rooted in the mind that they really can't be fixed or fought, they need to be redirected in the right way and constantly monitored.

So, where was I? Oh yeah, wallowing in self pity and contemplating going on an ice cream and cake bender and finally doing myself and my colon in for good, actually part of me was like: "What effing luck, death by cake, no wrist slitting or hanging or nauseating drugs, this is like the suicidal jackpot!"

I had been up to this point eating very well by most standards in the house and was well on the way to recovery and losing weight at a decent pace, but had more or less plateaued on that front but I still had this hole inside. Where before I could fill it with snacks and tranquilizing delicious chemicals and sugars and get all higher to tranquilize myself from the horrifying emptiness inside, now I was screwed and couldn't do that anymore but lacked any established method for preventing it, or preventing the nigh irresistible desire.

There was nothing to stop me from going to the store and buying something evil, I could do as I had done before and eaten at the park and then drive home, pretending as if nothing happened. This presented itself as a problem. One that I had wrangled with, and lost, for all of my adult life up to this point. The truth of the situation is this: What is right is never enough, saving yourself is never enough, at that moment the prospect of killing myself with a delicious eclair, of giant subway samich seemed like a kind of heaven.

In the end, you have to do it for other people, but that is hard, especially when you can't actually put yourself in another's shoes, but luckily by this point I had detoxed enough that I was freeing my mind from the perpetual emotional deadness that I had been feeling most of my life. It's not that I didn't care about other people, it's more like there was only so much room in my brain for thinking about the reality I lived in and too much of it was taken up with hating myself and everyone else for not admitting how much they hated me. Yeah, the mind's a pretty kooky-fun place, remember, it's not supposed to make any sense at all.

At this point I caught myself in my downward spiral of self-loathing and wallowy goodness and changed gears, which is where I try to find fun and inspiring things online to read or watch to bring myself around. While on youtube checking out the latest Lady Gaga videos and jamming to Katy Perry, I noticed a video in my list from Carnegie Mellon. (I have most of the Unis subbed for their open courseware lectures and such) it was called the last lecture. By a professor at CMU who was terminally ill, and was giving his "last lecture". I watched it probably 10 times as it was very inspiring. It might not be so for you, I think it's mostly nerdy stuff, but there it is.

The way it inspired me at the moment I watched it was this idea of brick walls, and that they are there for people to prove how much they want something, how dedicated they are to a goal. I began to think about all kinds of philosophical and spiritual concepts, and especially about various ideas of what the next level of existence would be like and I began to think along the lines that it must be more difficult than this level of existence, and that although there may be variable physicality, I imagined that willing matter into a different shape would probably be pretty hard, in fact, if you can't do it here, then you probably can't even do it there etc. I began to think about what it takes to control matter in the here and now, and how that might be represented symbolically as a basic kind of transformation from one thing to another, or one form to another, and that the method is rather arbitrary in the end.

I cursed myself as being weak willed, and thought that will must have something to do with it, as well as intent, and the problem began to flesh itself out.

I love problem solving, it's a bit of an obsession, but I had until this point always hit a brick wall when it came to health issues, mainly because I was going about it all wrong. This of course was the culmination of years and years of thought on the problem (I am a very very very slow thinker.) But brick walls are there for a reason, overcoming them is important practice for life.

Needless to say I was at a point where it was either just go and die, or do something about it, and what really cinched it was a basic desire to do something good and worthwhile. I looked back on my life and saw and felt that I was in every sense I could find a complete and utter failure at everything I had ever tried, at least that is how I felt, I wanted to at least do something right, and I felt that that something shouldn't just benefit me. Suddenly solving the problem of being obese and all self-hatey was more about finding a way out to help other people and not so much about helping myself.

Not too long after that I was starting to venture out a bit, and I was driving to town for something or other and I kind of had a moment of complete and total divine inspiration, or at least that's what I like to call it, it's was probably just gas. I had a total moment of clarity where for a brief instant all of the entirety of the universe seemed to make a kind of twisted sense, and I realized that what I fundamentally lacked was religion in any real sense. That is, I found it very difficult to act because the framework of my mind was not "bound" together for support by some fundamental belief, I didn't believe in anything or anyone, least of all myself.

More to the point, the binding element of my mind was eroded from years of whatever it is I was doing to erode it, so I decided that I needed to church up a bit. It suddenly dawned on me that the way I looked at life, and food, and everything was completely retarded, and that I had never been able to change it because I was like a man trying to push a boulder out of the way without anything fixed to prop my feet against. But from my years of thinking I had come to the conclusion that things like the truth and facts were about as useful as balls on a priest when it comes to fighting erroneus thought patterns. What I needed was a powerful and convenient lie. Well, not a lie per se, but I needed an unverifiable and unquestionable belief in a higher power that could tell me to do what I already knew I should be doing.

Yeah, crazy. Crazy like a fox.

So I had to do a bit of cosmology and mythology and generally create some ambiguous but strong religious beliefs, then one kind of just popped out of its own accord, I never actually planned it, it was called The List.

This seems like it might have taken a bit of time, but I was at The List by the time I got back home. For awhile I kept it to myself, The List was my only comfort and helped guide my decisions when it came to eating. The List is not an actual list, it's much more than that, it's the representation of an entire philosophy about life and food. The List talks about food, but there is more on The List about what not to eat than there is to eat.

The List is direct and stern, there is no arguing with The List, there is no discussion with The List, The List speaks and you damn well better do what The List says.

So what does The List actually say?

The List says: Everything that exists serves a purpose, it was designed for that purpose, and almost everything in the universe doesn't have a damned thing to do with you, and certainly wasn't made for you to put it in your mouth. The Goddess didn't go about looking for new ways to fill your plate, your culinary enjoyment was actually the least of her worries. You are meant to only eat something that is obviously there for you to eat. It turns out, that's pork chops. Human beings are the Pork Chop's only natural predator. Whenever you are sitting there thinking: "Hmm what should I eat today?" Stop! Is there a pork chop in your vicinity or could you with little effort acquire a pork chop? If so, then you question is answered.

But wait you ask, what if I don't have access to a pork chop?

Is there any part of a pig at hand to consume? No? Then don't eat. Because if it isn't a pork chop, or part of a pig, then it's not on The List.

Basically, at this point, as The List has revealed itself, the only things you are allowed to consume are things from Pigs, tea, xylitol, and water. In fact a lot of The List has to do with under what conditions you can actually eat something.

The List says: You should never eat anything that isn't the product of some kind of naturally occurring reproduction, nor can you eat a thing that has been intentionally altered, or fed things that are not natural for it to consume, or are not products of a natural and undisturbed reproductive process. You cannot eat anything sold in a plastic container, with a barcode (the mark of the beast!).

While we've covered what is on The List, you should know that The List is predominantly about what is NOT on The List.

Vegetables of any kind are strictly forbidden by The List. Bird products of any kind are forbidden, if you must use duck fat, do so, but lard is preferred. Variety is strictly forbidden by The List, Recipes are forbidden. Herbs, flavorings, and seasonings of any kind are forbidden. Preparing food in any way, or by any method, for the purpose of "enhancing" the taste is strictly forbidden. The only things you may add to your food are salt.

The List says: People are strange. They must invariably live on the death of something else. Instead of minimizing what they kill, they are always looking for new things to kill and put in their mouths, and always trying to find new and innovative ways to derive pleasure from it. How exactly is this not the definition of sadism? Why do people think that of the multitude of rights a person has, the right to tasty food is of any importance at all in the grand scheme of things? Food is a necessity, and there are things put on this earth that are perfect for nourishing you, they have come to life with the knowledge that part of their purpose is to be eaten by you. There are still other things where part of their purpose is to be eaten by another creature, and another and so on. Each creature has only certain things that it is meant to eat, all the creatures of nature follow this rule, they have one, two, maybe three things on which they seek out and feed. While they may eat a varied diet at one time or another, when their preferred meal is present, they will always go for it.

But humans, they want to eat everything. They want to participate in the wholesale slaughter of just about everything that isn't poisonous, and some things that are, then they want to spice them up and shove them down their gullets, and they make this an almost defining aspect to their lives. They reminisce about the delights of past feasts, and spend endless hours planning new ones. Some are so gluttonous that they pay teams of people to prepare their meals, always demanding more and more and more gastronomical delights.

Many people have asked the question: Is x on the list.

The List says: No. If you have to ask at this point just remember that the default answer is no. If you aren't absolutely sure that The List will approve of what you are trying to eat then don't put it in your mouth. Maybe is not on The List.

But x is really delicious.

The List says: Delicious things are not on The List.

Can't we add x to The List?

The List says: Adding things to The List is not on The List.

Well x is on my list.

The List says: Good luck with that.

---

The List thrives on belief in itself. Once I began following the list I lost another 10 kilos and am still losing, I began to feel much better, much more active, and was able to focus to a greater degree. I have found myself much more capable of understanding others and how they feel, I have become more sensitive and dedicated, and am rarely depressed at all, and when I am depressed, it's never the doom and gloom I hate myself and everyone and the world can go to hell kind of depression I was used to.

In the end, the whole point of The List is about changing how you think about food, in a fun and kooky way, it's a kind of misdirection for the mind. It's about making a conscious choice to think a specific way, something I think very few people ever do. It's about taking complete control of your mind and convincing it to do what you need it to do to accomplish your goals. Instead of berating yourself, or hating yourself, you simply give your mind a reason, totally illogical, to counteract the already illogical and unreasonable ideas in your head.

It also helps to counteract reasonable ideas built on logic and based on wrong assumptions, they are totally obliterated by The List.

When it comes to bad thinking, think of it a bit like a garden with weeds that grow so fast that by the time you get to the end, you have to start back at the beginning and you are always trying to pull up one weed or another and it's a constant chore. You can't win by doing the same things over and over again, you need something completely radical and way out in left field, something the weeds didn't expect.

The List may seem pretty specific to me, but there is a lot about The List that you might not understand from first looking at it, it's not really so much about what you should eat, but what you shouldn't eat, and even more importantly why you shouldn't. The List is about minimalism and, it's like dietary Aikido, and mental Aikido, and a whole bunch of do's. It's about making your life not have anything to do with your food. About separating your emotions from your food, that's not their purpose, animals aren't here to die so you can feel better about yourself. You should feel better about yourself because you do better things, doing things is what will actually help you feel better about yourself, food is a cheap way of getting your emo-yayas off.

Most people try to add things to The List, that's because they don't grok the purpose of The List, they want to make it into a justification for their same old bad ideas about food. They want to maintain their current way of thinking and The List becomes The Justification. In the end, The List is a kind of monodiet, that is what is meant by "Variety is not on The List." Saying you are bored with your food is also not on The List. Boredom isn't permitted because you can only be bored with your food if you are still thinking about food in the wrong way. I eat Pork Chops every day, day in and day out, sometimes I have a bit of bacon, or a piece of pork sausage, but generally speaking, I prefer the Pork Chop.

Now I don't want you to think that I always follow the list, I have been known to have a bit of lettuce now and again, and I once put some vinegar on my Pork Chop, but every single time I deviate from The List, I feel it almost immediately and I always regret it.

Finally, there is the idea of food and social-ness. I can generally only eat Pork Chops, it's the only thing I want to eat, I am never bored with them, I always prefer them, there are a great many things that I cannot eat, but I have yet to meet a single person who really cannot eat a Pork Chop. The List is about the least common denominator, the food that everyone can share together, that no one has to turn down because they are allergic, or know they will have a bad reaction.

So what have we learned?

The List is not a list, it's not a series of things or bullet points, or numbers. You can't write it down, you can't add to it, or take away from it, it's not that kind of thing. The List is like a fulcrum, you provide the lever and with it you can move your mental world. Once you learn and understand what The List is, you won't have to ask "Is this on The List" because you will understand why it's not on The List.
 

davey72

The Living Force
The List. Good idea for more than just food.
I am curious as to how everyone eventually faired with this bug?
 

sacriface

Jedi Master
"The List" sounds nearly like something that I have been practicing for nearly a year now. I understand, thus, that it isn't The List, or on the list. So it's not it.
But, since moving on to ketogenic diet about 15months ago, I plunged into a habit of eating pretty much only omlettes made out of eggs, nuts, apple, bacon and buckwheat, after a few months I cut out the nuts altogether.

Now for nearly a year, bacon has been the base of my diet, with eggs, as an omelette. Every day, everywhere, it's omelettes and it boggled my mind, that even though there must've been a change in an attitude towards food and eating, I don't get bored with them. Of course, there was a bit of "cabrocalypse" (Thanks Laura for the term) over christmas, although without slipping into any bad foods. Bacon&eggs it is, and it just never gets boring, and there isn't a need for variety.

It's still far from The List, but it reflects, I think, the other way of thinking about food and it sort of came instinctively. I enjoyed the simplicity of it, and how the attention isn't directed overly towards the "what am I gonna eat" issue of the day.

Now, The List, is a brilliantly superior version of this, and it sounds like something very much worth practicing.

Thank you for presenting this thread with the explicit attention directed to this idea.
 

Arwenn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I really enjoyed reading Atreides post (if only he'd post more)- it was straight from the heart, it made me laugh and also brought tears to my eyes.

I eat eggs and bacon every day, and thought I would get sick of it by now, but not so far. Thank goodness :rolleyes: The times I do have cravings for things sweet and carbs, I know it's because I haven't consumed enough fat. Thank you for bringing this thread up, I had no idea just how bad things were with that Paleobug.
 
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