Bad Boys

[Chu]

I really can't conclude that there is any one given set of factors that creates a 'bad boy' any more than a 'savior' or any other title/stereotype. I think there are so many that you could have a hundred different discussions and there will still be no definite 'cause thus effect' reason.

I mean, some of you thought I was a young'un so it's possible that more about me got lost in translation.

I always see the very best in people. I don't look for their worst, because it always shows up eventually. I give them the benefit of the doubt, but immediately notice when words/practice don't match up. Some people always assume the worst, assume they're seeing it, and don't bother looking for the best because they assume they were right all along. But everyone is on their own journey so you can't say that they are wrong, especially not just so that you can tell yourself that you are right.

Assuming. Assumptions. What are they based on? A lot of information, or a little? Why do people seem to always concur that their very first assumption is 100% correct? Do they change their initial assumptions over time, with more information? Or do they decide that they are still right, and wallow in their egotistical superiority?

I believe that these lessons are meant to be applied to the self. To have the tools to turn inward and face our own darkness...and with knowledge, to eventually bring those darkness's into the light. The work has to be internal...it's all internal. Anyone constantly seeking help/answers 'outside' will never learn how to fully trust and believe in themselves. It's hard work, it's torturous actually. But when you fall down, below Hell level (it has a basement)...you may find yourself willing to do the work. But if Hell is your comfort zone, then carry on.

This interests me greatly, it's what I would like to read here. How are you applying what you've learned, to your self and your life? How are you changed by this? Yes we are supposed to learn the lessons. I however don't want to keep repeating the lessons, either reading them or living them (lol). I would like to see that people have learned and how their perspectives may now be different from before.

Yes. The soul is where God lives. If you want to see the face of God go look in the mirror. If you want to talk to God, go meet him in your soul. And be honest, He really does know everything, even the stuff you think nobody knows about. There are a lot of those people in church on Sunday.
They spend the other 6 days...yelling at employees, abusing their spouse, kicking the dog and traumatizing their kids. But on Sunday, they make the tiniest effort available to them, to redeem themselves, absolve themselves of all sin. I mean, Jesus' blood covered that, so I'm good...right?
I know I'm being controversial but the lies have had their power over us for far too long. Time to reclaim our selfs and our lives.

Every morning I come in here and it's like this. It's like "Show and Tell" at school and everybody brought their ego.
It's like the party the kids have when the parents are away, and they leave a mess of beer bottles and pizza boxes. But here, I come in and step over bruised egos instead of bottles. So once again, Mom is going to attempt to clean up.
For one thing, why are y'all so attached to your ego? And being right? Can you even handle being wrong, and if not why?
Being judgy wudgy and assuming superiority is not how you go about achieving 4D STO candidacy. Wrong campaign strategy.

I was recently described as "a loose canon", lol. I prefer to be a blow dart into that hard crusty shell around your heart. Love isn't judgy, it is accepting of a person's 'flaws' and loving them anyway.

I just chose a few of your quotes, because they stand out to me as characteristic of what may be a bit of an issue here. I would like to repeat my suggestion to slow down and read the forum a bit more. It sounds to me like you are making a lot of assumptions about who we are, how we operate, and how we SHOULD operate and think, adding to that a touch of what we have seen and experienced many times before as projection and deflection (in others, and ourselves, of course). You also ignore some comments that don't fit with your views. It also seems to me like you haven't understood the idea of us being "strangers to ourselves", and of how experience without knowledge input doesn't always lead to learning lessons. AND, it seems to me that you either have never met a psychopath, or decided to "see the good in them" anyway, which is something that from many of our experiences (yes, life experiences), doesn't seem like a good idea.

I'm not sure we have what you may be looking for, frankly. We may be too "nerdy" for you, if what you are looking for is more like a chatroom for sharing experiences, seeing the good in everything and everybody, and seeing only God and not the "predator" in oneself, or that everything is relative and there are so many nuances to everything it's not even worth it to talk about it. Also, if to you the Work is just internal, then I don't really see how you need anyone here or anything.

IOW, we are quite happy with our house as it is, and learn every day from it. But you, having arrived very recently and obviously unfamiliar with it, seem to be saying that you don't like how things are. Maybe you should start your own forum, where things are more the way you like them? I don't say this as a judgement on your character, which you seem to assume people do a lot. This place really isn't everyone's cup of tea. If you really think there is something in here for you, it would really help if you took some more time to familiarize yourself with why and how we do things, and then we see if we can speak the same language, or not. For now, I see no evidence that that is the case.

It comes down to the questions asked previously which you ignored as well, of whether you are here to learn or to "preach". Nobody knows everything, and of course we reevaluate everything after new data comes along, and experiences and mistakes. But you seem to be missing (or not interested) in the concept of a NETWORK being the "teacher". (I invite you to search the forum for that topic).

 

[Chu]

And here is a reminder of what the forum is about:

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

cassiopaea.org

 

[Jones]

From the terms and rules:

First our Vision for this forum: To create an environment for the stimulation, development and then the alignment of objective consciousnesses in a manner similar to that defined and described by Georges Gurdjieff.

For this group, linear thinking is subjective and only nonlinear thinking can be objective.

Objective is "how the universe sees itself".

Our culture has co-opted the word "objective" and has made it to serve as an equivalent of "scientific materialism," but when you grok that scientism is for the most part NOT scientific, but is rather another subjective religion, then you see that no part of the word "objective" applies to science or "linear thinking."

Subjective is the story about the blind men and the elephant - they all think that the elephant is the part of it that they are feeling and that is all there is. Objective is when they begin to share their observations and come to the realization that the elephant is more than what each of them experiences independently. Someone who can see would experience more of the elephant than the blind men, though this seeing would still be limited. Objective is the elephant as it experiences itself added to the observations of the blind men added together with view of the one who can see. It takes a group to achieve such objectivity. But once each of them has shared their perceptions and experience, and all of the group have assimilated this information, they can all then achieve an objective understanding of the elephant - or very close.

Note that it doesn't say only the experience of the elephant/s because they can be subjective and blind themselves.

It is done this way because:

A: Always "Network". Networking is 4th Density STO concept seeping into 3rd density with upcoming realm border crossing.

And:

Q: (L) So, you are saying that the path to illumination is knowledge and not love?

A: That is correct.

Q: (L) Is it also correct that emotion can be used to mislead, that is emotions that are twisted and generated strictly from the flesh or false programming?

A: Emotion that limits is an impediment to progress. Emotion is also necessary to make progress in 3rd density. It is natural. When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density.

Q: (L) What about Love?

A: What about it?

Q: (L) There are many teachings that are promulgated that Love is the key, the answer. They say that illumination and knowledge and what-not can all be achieved through love.

A: The problem is not the term "love," the problem is the interpretation of the term. Those on third density have a tendency to confuse the issue horribly. After all, they confuse many things as love. When the actual definition of love as you know it is not correct either. It is not necessarily a feeling that one has that can also be interpreted as an emotion, but rather, as we have told you before, the essence of light which is knowledge is love, and this has been corrupted when it is said that love leads to illumination. Love is Light is Knowledge. Love makes no sense when common definitions are used as they are in your environment. To love you must know. And to know is to have light. And to have light is to love. And to have knowledge is to love.

And:

A: Disinformation comes from seemingly reliable sources. It is extremely important for you to not gather false knowledge as it is more damaging than no knowledge at all. Remember knowledge protects, ignorance endangers.

 

[Joe]

Assuming. Assumptions. What are they based on? A lot of information, or a little?

A lot of information, actually, and as such, they're not really assumptions but acquired and applied knowledge and experience.

Why do people seem to always concur that their very first assumption is 100% correct?

"People" do lots of things. We're not "people" here.

Do they change their initial assumptions over time, with more information?

We generally do, yes.

Or do they decide that they are still right, and wallow in their egotistical superiority?

We try to avoid that.

It truly is unfair to believe that anyone can take a quick glance at someone's behavior and decide that they can analyse it correctly.

We're not talking about "quick glances" here. We're talking about long observation of traits and behavior, and then using that to make assessments.

 

[Keit]

I would like to express my opinion on the "negative feedback loop" dynamic that has been occurring on this thread between specific forum members. The same has been happening on some other threads as well. Whenever a member is being pointed out about something and there is a discussion about it, the same forum members "come to the rescue" and act as a chorus to the "wronged member," repeating the same sentiment that "the moderators are unjust/too harsh/unable to see their mistakes and apologize.".

The above isn't something unusual, it is also not the first time that we see something like this on this forum. And yes, it is probably our oversight, because most of the active members were with us from the time the forum was created. Or they joined later, but made sure to catch up. They read, they researched, they asked questions, and they participated. Bottom line: we are used to people actually knowing what this forum is all about and agreeing with its purpose (and everything that it entails).

We do have a detailed explanation about it on the sign up page, but the reality is that many people don't read it, or even if they do, they don't really contemplate what it means and don't ask questions. And that's why we have situations when various members (even those who are seemingly not newbies) "stir up things" just because... Just because they think they understand better than the owners of the forum. Just because they prefer to continue staying in the place they clearly don't belong to for whatever reasons.

In the past, Laura shared on numerous occasions how she told her children that their family isn't a democracy. That it was a monarchy, and she was in charge as long as she was legally responsible for them. Well, something similar is happening on this particular forum. True, we are definitely not children anymore, and we are not a family, even if many people do view this place as their home. And that's the main point that has been mentioned and discussed in similar situations in the past, when newbies didn't accept the feedback in the spirit that it was given.

That's why we try and explain ourselves again in the hope that eventually it will be clear. This forum isn't just like other forums. It has a specific intention and a goal. And it isn't a democracy, period. It doesn't mean that the atmosphere is "oppressive" either. It's possible to see how many people post on an everyday basis and on how many topics. Because they understand and agree to the "rules of engagement." But it IS oppressive for those who either don't understand what this forum is all about, or don't make an effort to understand it. And this isn't going to change any time soon.

It isn't a democracy because the creators of this forum accept responsibility for what is happening on this forum and its members. The members are adults, or they are supposed to be, but since one of the goals of the forum is to provide an environment where people can grow and Work on themselves, it means that they accept and agree to the possibility of being pointed out or shown a mirror if there will be a need for it. Our oversight is not making sure that new members actually read the terms and understand what kind of forum they joined. We will have to think about that, and if something can be done about it.

 

[jacygirl]

I would like to express my opinion on the "negative feedback loop" dynamic that has been occurring on this thread between specific forum members. The same has been happening on some other threads as well. Whenever a member is being pointed out about something and there is a discussion about it, the same forum members "come to the rescue" and act as a chorus to the "wronged member," repeating the same sentiment that "the moderators are unjust/too harsh/unable to see their mistakes and apologize.".

The above isn't something unusual, it is also not the first time that we see something like this on this forum. And yes, it is probably our oversight, because most of the active members were with us from the time the forum was created. Or they joined later, but made sure to catch up. They read, they researched, they asked questions, and they participated. Bottom line: we are used to people actually knowing what this forum is all about and agreeing with its purpose (and everything that it entails).

We do have a detailed explanation about it on the sign up page, but the reality is that many people don't read it, or even if they do, they don't really contemplate what it means and don't ask questions. And that's why we have situations when various members (even those who are seemingly not newbies) "stir up things" just because... Just because they think they understand better than the owners of the forum. Just because they prefer to continue staying in the place they clearly don't belong to for whatever reasons.

In the past, Laura shared on numerous occasions how she told her children that their family isn't a democracy. That it was a monarchy, and she was in charge as long as she was legally responsible for them. Well, something similar is happening on this particular forum. True, we are definitely not children anymore, and we are not a family, even if many people do view this place as their home. And that's the main point that has been mentioned and discussed in similar situations in the past, when newbies didn't accept the feedback in the spirit that it was given.

That's why we try and explain ourselves again in the hope that eventually it will be clear. This forum isn't just like other forums. It has a specific intention and a goal. And it isn't a democracy, period. It doesn't mean that the atmosphere is "oppressive" either. It's possible to see how many people post on an everyday basis and on how many topics. Because they understand and agree to the "rules of engagement." But it IS oppressive for those who either don't understand what this forum is all about, or don't make an effort to understand it. And this isn't going to change any time soon.

It isn't a democracy because the creators of this forum accept responsibility for what is happening on this forum and its members. The members are adults, or they are supposed to be, but since one of the goals of the forum is to provide an environment where people can grow and Work on themselves, it means that they accept and agree to the possibility of being pointed out or shown a mirror if there will be a need for it. Our oversight is not making sure that new members actually read the terms and understand what kind of forum they joined. We will have to think about that, and if something can be done about it.

I would like to address something you wrote: "Whenever a member is being pointed out about something and there is a discussion about it, the same forum members "come to the rescue" and act as a chorus to the "wronged member," repeating the same sentiment that "the moderators are unjust/too harsh/unable to see their mistakes and apologize.".

It seems that forum members came to the rescue because 2 members were being discussed by a group of authorities. There were 6 posts in a row about our behavior and also analysis of our characters, from 6 different authority figures, while both of us were offline.
Nobody else had been participating until that point.

I expressed disappointment, yes. This all could have been handled discreetly, with a private message sent to each of us. Nobody would have been any the wiser, and we would have knocked off the chat/jokes. But instead, it became a public affair...a titillating affair and now we are here.

Obviously there are lessons here for me, Helmet and other members. Maybe there is also a lesson to the authorities that in the future unruly members should be dealt with in a more discreet manner so that it doesn't blow up into whatever this is.

Two wrongs don't make a right so my hope is that we all learn something and move on.

 

[Renaissance]

I would like to address something you wrote: "Whenever a member is being pointed out about something and there is a discussion about it, the same forum members "come to the rescue" and act as a chorus to the "wronged member," repeating the same sentiment that "the moderators are unjust/too harsh/unable to see their mistakes and apologize.".

It seems that forum members came to the rescue because 2 members were being discussed by a group of authorities. There were 6 posts in a row about our behavior and also analysis of our characters, from 6 different authority figures, while both of us were offline.
Nobody else had been participating until that point.

I expressed disappointment, yes. This all could have been handled discreetly, with a private message sent to each of us. Nobody would have been any the wiser, and we would have knocked off the chat/jokes. But instead, it became a public affair...a titillating affair and now we are here.

Obviously there are lessons here for me, Helmet and other members. Maybe there is also a lesson to the authorities that in the future unruly members should be dealt with in a more discreet manner so that it doesn't blow up into whatever this is.

This is a place for research, but also for Work. This is a particular type of work that involves networking, observations, and tuning our 'reading instrument'. It is done with group effort so lessons can be shared in service to others. This is likely to bring up emotions like embarrassment, shame, resentment, various programs and thinking errors. Learning how to deal with all these things and put them in the proper perspective is also important in 'debugging our machine'. This is usually where the difficult part is, which make it Work. Avoiding that process would run counter to the purpose of the forum.

 

[lainey]

I was thinking about how a Newbies experience of the forum now might be different to the experience I had when I joined the forum. We both have access to the same information, and having read the Wave twice, the concept of a mirror shouldn't really be a new one. One difference could be that I feel like there used to be a lot more personal threads/feedback threads that I would organically come across when exploring the forum. I was reading feedback and mirrors all the time so maybe that helped me assimilate the concept. Do you think that newer members might benefit from being encouraged to read more mirror/feedback threads so they can see the process?

 

[Keit]

It seems that forum members came to the rescue because 2 members were being discussed by a group of authorities. There were 6 posts in a row about our behavior and also analysis of our characters, from 6 different authority figures, while both of us were offline.
Nobody else had been participating until that point.

Please read terms and rules of the forum. Things should become more clear. Because there is nothing "wrong" with the posts that were written to you, or their amount and time of posting. It doesn't matter if you were offline. It's an international forum and people live in different time zones. Hope you understand why this remark is irrelevant.

As for "6 posts in a row about our behavior and also analysis of our characters, from 6 different authority figures", also nothing unusual. This is something that constantly happens on this forum. It is THE point of this forum. We learn by participating and sharing, then we learn from feedback of others, because only others can notice things we are unaware of. There is actually a solid scientific research behind this.

I expressed disappointment, yes. This all could have been handled discreetly, with a private message sent to each of us. Nobody would have been any the wiser, and we would have knocked off the chat/jokes. But instead, it became a public affair...a titillating affair and now we are here.

Again, public feedback and discussion is THE point of this forum. The intent is to allow others to learn from interactions, reactions to feedback, etc. It's necessary to have it in public because it allows everyone to learn how to recognize modes of behavior in ourselves and others.

There is also the aspect of "not allowing the predator to hide", because this is exactly what the inner predator wants: not to be exposed.

If all these things are totally unclear to you and don't make sense, it just shows that you didn't know what kind of forum you stumbled upon. That's fine, and it's never late to learn.

Obviously there are lessons here for me, Helmet and other members. Maybe there is also a lesson to the authorities that in the future unruly members should be dealt with in a more discreet manner so that it doesn't blow up into whatever this is.

Just to give you another example of what's possible to see, and what you may not be aware of: the above sentence is a tad manipulative. Why? Because instead of talking only about yourself, you talked for "Helmet and other members" too.

You also used an exhageratted description when you wrote "unruly members". No one saw you as "unruly". This is your somewhat emotionally charged description.

There is also no blow up. What you see is something that is periodically done on this forum. Including posts from the moderators and ambassadors. We do not leave posts without answer if we see something, because it's our responsibility to others on this forum to show what we see and how we see it.

As for "whatever this is", it is getting a mirror or a feedback

 

[Wandering Star]

I would like to express my opinion on the "negative feedback loop" dynamic that has been occurring on this thread between specific forum members. The same has been happening on some other threads as well. Whenever a member is being pointed out about something and there is a discussion about it, the same forum members "come to the rescue" and act as a chorus to the "wronged member," repeating the same sentiment that "the moderators are unjust/too harsh/unable to see their mistakes and apologize.".

The above isn't something unusual, it is also not the first time that we see something like this on this forum. And yes, it is probably our oversight, because most of the active members were with us from the time the forum was created. Or they joined later, but made sure to catch up. They read, they researched, they asked questions, and they participated. Bottom line: we are used to people actually knowing what this forum is all about and agreeing with its purpose (and everything that it entails).

We do have a detailed explanation about it on the sign up page, but the reality is that many people don't read it, or even if they do, they don't really contemplate what it means and don't ask questions. And that's why we have situations when various members (even those who are seemingly not newbies) "stir up things" just because... Just because they think they understand better than the owners of the forum. Just because they prefer to continue staying in the place they clearly don't belong to for whatever reasons.

In the past, Laura shared on numerous occasions how she told her children that their family isn't a democracy. That it was a monarchy, and she was in charge as long as she was legally responsible for them. Well, something similar is happening on this particular forum. True, we are definitely not children anymore, and we are not a family, even if many people do view this place as their home. And that's the main point that has been mentioned and discussed in similar situations in the past, when newbies didn't accept the feedback in the spirit that it was given.

That's why we try and explain ourselves again in the hope that eventually it will be clear. This forum isn't just like other forums. It has a specific intention and a goal. And it isn't a democracy, period. It doesn't mean that the atmosphere is "oppressive" either. It's possible to see how many people post on an everyday basis and on how many topics. Because they understand and agree to the "rules of engagement." But it IS oppressive for those who either don't understand what this forum is all about, or don't make an effort to understand it. And this isn't going to change any time soon.

It isn't a democracy because the creators of this forum accept responsibility for what is happening on this forum and its members. The members are adults, or they are supposed to be, but since one of the goals of the forum is to provide an environment where people can grow and Work on themselves, it means that they accept and agree to the possibility of being pointed out or shown a mirror if there will be a need for it. Our oversight is not making sure that new members actually read the terms and understand what kind of forum they joined. We will have to think about that, and if something can be done about it.

It couldn't be said more clearly.

Thank you for your comment.

If it is not understood now, it will never be understood.

 

[jacygirl]

I am really sorry.
I meditated for quite a while, searching for what I wasn't seeing. I get it now.
That's all I'm going to say. Just, thank you and I'm sorry.
I guess you don't see something as a lesson until you learn something from it.

 

[A Jay]

Sounds like you had quite the epiphany.

Would you mind sharing what it was that you didn't see before that you see now?

Sharing gives us the chance to solidify our own understanding and gives others the chance to learn from our lessons as well.

 

[jhonny]

Hi jacygirl,

You said earlier in this thread that you have read The Wave series numerous times, so perhaps It's time to read it again, and this time with all the feedback you've had here you'll be able to identify and recognize the purpose of this forum, and The Work we do here. I'm telling you this from my own experience.

Also, some of the psychology books recommended in the Recommended book section. I know It's a long journey, but an enjoyable one and of great value, which not only will help you to interact here, but in your life and your relationship with others in general.

 

[RedFox]

I was thinking about how a Newbies experience of the forum now might be different to the experience I had when I joined the forum. We both have access to the same information, and having read the Wave twice, the concept of a mirror shouldn't really be a new one. One difference could be that I feel like there used to be a lot more personal threads/feedback threads that I would organically come across when exploring the forum. I was reading feedback and mirrors all the time so maybe that helped me assimilate the concept. Do you think that newer members might benefit from being encouraged to read more mirror/feedback threads so they can see the process?

Seeing how it works with others for myself was how I built trust in the process as well as individuals ability to spot things in others/myself that I didn't see. Some of these threads span multiple years - and you can see the struggles and triumphs that come from the feedback if they take it on board. Nothing more amazing that watching people flourish!
It's also how I learned it wasn't for everyone.
I think it would be a good idea.

Also, some of the psychology books recommended in the Recommended book section. I know It's a long journey, but an enjoyable one and of great value, which not only will help you to interact here, but in your life and your relationship with others in general.

I'd second the psychology books. Reading them was how I learnt of our cognitive biases and blind spots.

As a primer (and it's best to take your time) here are a few examples from sott
Firstly this recent article by luc is a good start, as it shows the problem in other people. It can be much easier to start here.

The Churchill Meltdown and Its Lessons

Why conservatards have lost the plot History is the key towards liberation. The truth of this statement becomes apparent when you consider that everything about our earthy existence is a product of the past. And I don't mean this in the sense of...

www.sott.net

One of these building blocks is the relationship between our own level of development and what we can perceive in other people. Put simply, we only understand what people are (or were) up to who are on our level or below; the minds of people above us remain closed to us. And I'm not thinking primarily of IQ here (plenty of high-IQ midwits around), but rather depth of perception informed by depth of character.
[..]

Besides, if the meltdowners cared to look and were able to understand, they could read this post by Cooper where he made it explicit:

I make sure to read the heretics, revisionists, and extremists on any topic I study. There are insights into capitalism you'll only hear from Marxists, others you'll only hear from AnCaps. I read self-published schizo books that are 90% trash, but dig up 1-2 unique insights.

You'll never get the whole picture from one source or perspective, and the more emotion clouds a given topic, the less people in one box will be willing or able to think outside of it. The key is to not simply jump from one box into another.

That, my friends, is indeed the key: you must not jump from one box into another box. You'd risk becoming a true convert, who as we know are always the most fanatical, and get stuck in an obsession with one particular "school of thought." We all know people like this, and it's not pretty. These are the one-trick phonies who can't help but blabber the same old talking points whenever they are triggered by someone not making those exact same points, that is, most of the time. Which is to say, Cooper is not only aware of the schizo spiral and the danger of getting trapped in one angle, in revisionism for revisionism's sake — he's capable of expressing this danger eloquently. To those minds who know from experience what he is talking about, the truth and depth of his thought is completely obvious, and the accusations of the meltdowners just look dumb, childish and mildly amusing. Dunning-Kruger doesn't just strike again, it's on a massive campaign.

Which is the whole point of networking - we get perspectives from others we may never see otherwise.
Can we accept these perspectives (even if only hypothetically)?

Another article from many years ago helped lay a lot of the psychology out (if you can get past any emotions behind the word idiot):

We are all confident idiots: 'The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance'

Last March, during the enormous South by Southwest music festival in Austin, Texas, the late-night talk show Jimmy Kimmel Live! sent a camera crew out into the streets to catch hipsters bluffing. "People who go to music festivals pride themselves...

www.sott.net

The built-in features of our brains, and the life experiences we accumulate, do in fact fill our heads with immense knowledge; what they do not confer is insight into the dimensions of our ignorance. As such, wisdom may not involve facts and formulas so much as the ability to recognize when a limit has been reached. Stumbling through all our cognitive clutter just to recognize a true "I don't know" may not constitute failure as much as it does an enviable success, a crucial signpost that shows us we are traveling in the right direction toward the truth.

*edit to add*
I'd also recommend he Romance Novels thread. Fictional the stories may be, but these are other (visceral/emotional) examples of people overcoming limitations/blind spots/ignorance - just like reading the threads where people receive feedback.

 

[T.C.]

I was thinking about how a Newbies experience of the forum now might be different to the experience I had when I joined the forum. We both have access to the same information, and having read the Wave twice, the concept of a mirror shouldn't really be a new one. One difference could be that I feel like there used to be a lot more personal threads/feedback threads that I would organically come across when exploring the forum. I was reading feedback and mirrors all the time so maybe that helped me assimilate the concept.

I agree with this. It’s something I’ve thought about now and again. I’m not sure how or why things are different now.

I think we certainly used to discuss Gurdjieff a lot more and use his models and ideas; but were there more advice/mirroring threads because we talked more about the fourth way Work, or did we talk more about the fourth way and working on seeing oneself objectively and trusting the group/mirror, because there were more advice/mirroring threads?

I’ve also wondered if there is less of this kind of thing now because so many of us went through it back then that we kind of ‘grooved’ the forum/network into a smoother and more objective and aware group/unit and there’s just less need to focus on it nowadays and a lot of elementary things we might have brought up in personal threads we can just figure out ourselves now.

But then that does bring up again the issue you raise, that noobs to the group don’t have a clue about any of that and they’re not regularly seeing it and understanding the process. And so usually, their first exposure to a mirror/feedback is on themselves in their own threads and they have no idea what’s going on.

That’s a pretty crazy situation, because no one’s ever told them the truth about themselves before, so how are they supposed to grasp it and understand it, believe it?

Well, yes, I guess reading The Wave and probably In Search of the Miraculous are basically the foundational primers that enable the truth to ‘take’, to bind with the part inside that CAN tell the truth from lies but is atrophied through a lifetime of induced hypnotic sleep.

And these things are mentioned 1) when people sign up and 2) in the welcome post. So how much more should be done?