Breast Feeding - It's the best, but...
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
So, there's a big movement to urge women to engage in prolonged breastfeeding, while "they" know that the milk could include toxic concentrations... while the well-to-do may only breast feed for 6 to 9 months and have nannies and better food.
Meanwhile, the very poor find it cheaper and easier to get formula with WIC ...
Is that it?
Meanwhile, the very poor find it cheaper and easier to get formula with WIC ...
Is that it?
Laura said:
Looks like it. And, when you think about it, babies are still getting a lot of vaccinations between one and two years of age, (I think the MMR -shot and booster, Meningococcal, Chicken Pox ,Diphtheria, Tetanus, Whooping Cough, Polio, Hib are given at around 1year/18months), and at the same time they are receiving a lot of toxic concentrations from breast milk, this could really be a large amount of toxins that would affect a baby's developing immune system. And that's in addition the toxic air, water, pollution etc, that is everywhere.
H
Hildegarda
Guest
Laura said:
that's pretty much the breakdown, with the only exception that I wouldn't say that it's really a "big" movement. To me here it seems commonplace because of the people I associate with, but over the whole population, very few people are actually doing it (just over 5% of children still get some breastfeeding at 18 months in the US, which is still not that long but most likely already very little in terms of number of feedings a day and amount of consumed breast milk \\\http://www.kellymom.com/writings/bf-numbers.html).
Also, looking at people I know, most of them didn't intend to do it originally and didn't appear to have come to it based on what they read or were told. Rather, many of them have found themselves at a point when they were supposed to, and even intended, to quit nursing and go back to work etc., yet neither the child nor the mom were ready for that, so they just kept going. The overall pressure to quit nursing is strong even on them.
osit
Actually, even the mom's I know who faithfully take their Lexapro drink bottled water. But yes we are swimming in a toxic soup in general.
I would agree with Hildegard who said
While it's disturbing the corelations between psychotropic drugs and breastfeeding and pregnancy, mothers who nurse both short and long alike would be affected by toxins in the milk since the majority of damage is going to be done early while the blood/brain barrier and immune system are developing..so the first 6 months or so. And of course if you are extremely toxic then breastfeeding would be contraindicated, but then again so would pregnancy, or some sort of detox would be in order.
It's absolutely clear to me that there is a two tiered system of food supply in this country. I can go to the HEB on my corner and walk around and 80% or so of the people in there are obese, the children are obese, they are clearly all suffering from various chronic conditions. There hair, eyes, skin look terrible. The babies being carted around sucking on bottles have that slightly edemic look of formula fed infants.
I can drive a little farther to Whole Foods and I will be hard pressed to find any obesity. In fact I can't find any of those little carts to drive around either maybe they have some in the back but everyone there is walking on their own two feet that I can see. Babies are being nursed by mom's in the cafe, even toddlers are nursed openly while mom sips on some wheat grass or a smoothie.
Now, I know that is completely random and anecdotal but it does, at least for me, paint a vivid picture. I can buy literally twice as many groceries at HEB than I can at Whole foods, the only difference being whether they are organic or natural or conventional. I only buy fruit, veg and meat at the store anyway so it is very comparable. You are free in this country to enjoy the very best in terms of nutrition if you have the luxury of a good education and well paying job. Likewise, you are free to offer your baby the breast for a full two years as recommended but only if you fall into the above category.
So while it is disturbing that some babies are receiving toxic chemicals via breastmilk we really haven't established just how toxic that is compared, say, to formula feeding. And the spectrum to me is huge. Additionally, it is worthwhile, IMHO, to actually look at the biology of infant development in relationship to nutrition and particularly look at studies that compare breast to formula. Then weighing the added toxicity that may be present in varying amounts against the evidence in favor of breastfeeding we might be able to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.
The fact is that just getting up in the morning exposes us to toxins. We can do our best to mitigate those things we are exposed to. And of course, a strong immune system is the foremost defense we have. My opinion is that the data on breastfeeding is very good, both in terms of biology as well as psychological and sociological development. But it would be worth exploring as a group I think.
While I have proposed certain motives the PTB may have for promoting extended breastfeeding I have to say it's a stretch IMO simply because as Hildegard said only 5% are still nursing past a year ...or another words once they have a full assortment of teeth. So if the plan is to get everyone on drugs in infancy they are going to have to work a lot harder. Maybe offer some incentives to moms to keep nursing. What I have seen is that nursing is never profitable and therefore though it may be extolled out of one side of the pediatricians mouth for it's inherent health benefits, you will be leaving his office with a sack of 'complimentary' formual packs.
I think there is little way that any person, adult or child, in this day and age can avoid being relatively free of toxins without eating right, and to eat right there has be awareness and self-education. It really is a mine field in terms of trying to eat toxin-free food. So right now I would say that if a child if breast fed by the average mother it is going to get toxins from the mother. If the child is not breast fed it is definitely going to get toxins from the food the average mother puts on the table. So in my uneducated opinion, in terms of the quality of nourishment, breast milk is likely to be the lessor of two evils.
Of course, that is only the nutritional side of the breast-feeding discussion. As to whether or not prolonged breast feeding (past weening) has any positive or negative psychological implications for a child, I really don't knowbut I think it would likely differ from child to child and be dependent on host of other factors.
Of course, that is only the nutritional side of the breast-feeding discussion. As to whether or not prolonged breast feeding (past weening) has any positive or negative psychological implications for a child, I really don't knowbut I think it would likely differ from child to child and be dependent on host of other factors.
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detbooks.html
Here are a few more references in terms of extended nursing from the perspective of anthropology.
and from the perspective of biology and development:
Immunobiology of Human Milk by Lars A. Hanson.
The classic seminal works on Attachment by Bowlby are useful reads as well as far as sociological and psychological issues.
Finally here is a very pro extended nursing site which seems to actually list references and sources. Though some of her bullet points appear to be drawn from more general studies on breastfeeding, some of her references are more specific.
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html#nutrition
Here are a few more references in terms of extended nursing from the perspective of anthropology.
and from the perspective of biology and development:
Immunobiology of Human Milk by Lars A. Hanson.
The classic seminal works on Attachment by Bowlby are useful reads as well as far as sociological and psychological issues.
Finally here is a very pro extended nursing site which seems to actually list references and sources. Though some of her bullet points appear to be drawn from more general studies on breastfeeding, some of her references are more specific.
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html#nutrition
tree
Jedi
From my own experience, I weaned my son at 2.5 years... it was mostly night feeding the last 12 months, or for naps. He still sleeps with us in our bed (now 3 years old). We had moved him into his own bed last year and he started having night terrors. They stopped when we moved him back to our bed. My husband really took the lead on the child care since he helped to raise his brothers and cousins. I was the youngest and had no experience with babies...I had never even seen a baby breast feed before I had my son! My husband is Chilean, and in their culture breastfeeding is the obvious thing to do, and also sleeping with the babies until they're 4 or 5 is normal (especially for poor families). I find Chilean people to be generally more caring and connected than North Americans (ironically, especially the poor), and I liked the idea of giving my son that sort of start to life (the caring and connected part). My son's godmother (Chilean) breastfed her 3 girls past the age of 2, and I had never seen such well-adjusted psychologically healthy teenage girls...that was true inspiration for me. They are now in their 20's studying at college on scholarships. So far, my son is healthy, confident, happy, and secure, but is also learning his boundaries and respect for authority. He is not the center of the universe and is developing a healthy attitude toward our little household community. When behavioral conflicts arise, we look for creative solutions. As far as the narcissistic tendencies in parenting, I think many are lacking a community of support..."it takes a village to raise a child"...something many do not have these days. Maybe another topic altogether.
I also wanted to comment on alternatives to breastfeeding... most formulas use either dairy or soy. There's a good chance they have some GMO ingredients, and I wouldn't be excited to put any of that into an infant. It really is a matter of the lesser evil. Our world is so contaminated...our food, soil, air, and water. We just have to do the best we can.
Tree
I also wanted to comment on alternatives to breastfeeding... most formulas use either dairy or soy. There's a good chance they have some GMO ingredients, and I wouldn't be excited to put any of that into an infant. It really is a matter of the lesser evil. Our world is so contaminated...our food, soil, air, and water. We just have to do the best we can.
Tree
I was reading some information from autism.com, mainly about mercury toxicity, and I found some relevant points:
-In animal studies, infants do not excrete mercury until weaned and a milk diet increases gastrointestinal absorption of metals.
-A study of rats found that oral antibiotics and milk both decreased the rate of methyl mercury excretion. Rats typically take 10 days to excrete half the mercury they are exposed to, but in rats on an all-milk diet (relevant to nursing infants) the half-life increased from 10 days to 30 days. In rats on oral antibiotics, the half-life increased from 10 days to over 100 days. In rats on both an all-milk diet and oral antibiotics, the half-life increased to 300 days. Humans excrete mercury more slowly than rats, so the effects would be larger there.
Other than the mercury toxicity from fish, mercury amalgams, flu vaccinations and environmental pollution (coal plants, etc), there is also mercury in some immuno globulin therapies to treat blood incompatibility between mother and child, and which are also given when pregnancy invasive procedures are done (amniocentesis).
Here is more relevant information:
Mercury detoxification and the elimination of gluten and casein (dairy) are the most favored and useful biomedical therapies for autism.
-In animal studies, infants do not excrete mercury until weaned and a milk diet increases gastrointestinal absorption of metals.
-A study of rats found that oral antibiotics and milk both decreased the rate of methyl mercury excretion. Rats typically take 10 days to excrete half the mercury they are exposed to, but in rats on an all-milk diet (relevant to nursing infants) the half-life increased from 10 days to 30 days. In rats on oral antibiotics, the half-life increased from 10 days to over 100 days. In rats on both an all-milk diet and oral antibiotics, the half-life increased to 300 days. Humans excrete mercury more slowly than rats, so the effects would be larger there.
Other than the mercury toxicity from fish, mercury amalgams, flu vaccinations and environmental pollution (coal plants, etc), there is also mercury in some immuno globulin therapies to treat blood incompatibility between mother and child, and which are also given when pregnancy invasive procedures are done (amniocentesis).
Here is more relevant information:
autism.com said:
Mercury detoxification and the elimination of gluten and casein (dairy) are the most favored and useful biomedical therapies for autism.
Yes, they are available. Actually, I noticed that the favored protocols for mercury detox comes from research done in children with autism. In general it includes a combination of several supplements: vitamins, taurine, multiminerals, melatonin, ALA, glutathione, and DMSA (or DMPS). Correcting gut and nutritional problems is a must, also medical supervision is needed to monitor potential serious risks or side effects. You'll find more information about the details in Detoxification and Healing by Sidney Baker, highly recommended :)
I have the dreadful, sickening feeling that extended breastfeeding is being promoted among populations that are not aware of mercury and detox diet for the express purpose of toxifying children - of hitting hard another segment of society that "they" see as desirable to destroy: the middle class.
societe humaine
The Force is Strong With This One
hello all,
first post, so be gentle!
so, we're all agreed that breastfeeding is best, but we all live in, to some greater or lesser degree, a very toxic environment.
we, my wife and i, have tried very hard to remove as many toxins from our lives as possible. after four years we have come to the conclusion that we will never be able to do this completely. noone makes a wooden computer for example. so we are resigned to doing all we can, and hope it is enough to give our children a better chance than most. we live in a small village in the french countryside, so good food and fairly clean air (unless someone can tell me otherwise). an old natural house except for a bit of cement. as little plastic as we can get away with. natural fibre clothes and bedding. no antibacterial cleaners and as few chemical cleaners as we think we can get away with. no more vaccines for the kids as we stopped after 6 months with our first and none at all for the second, now two. no pharmacuticals where possible, although this is an ongoing process to find natural remedies as an when needed. we do still have amalgam fillings and as yet no money to replace them. i'm sure we have fire retardants in the house as our furniture was purchased before our waking up!
we have a new arrival due in march and we would obviously like to continue the breastfeeding. we will not use commercial formula.
two questions:
what are the most important things to look at eradicating/improving for the most benefit to the newbie in march and us all in general?
any tips on finding an alternative comfort for our 2 year old as he still wants the breast at night?..(all through the night)! its driving us nuts and he wont take a dummy or a bottle.
our first took the bottle no problem (expressed milk) so after a year was happy with just that at night, with the dummy.....he still has both by the way, but we're working on that! but......we use cows milk. any simple ideas for a replacement for that, we used goats milk for a while, but it's really expensive. they both do also eat a good diet, so we're thinking (hoping) that overall they're not doing too bad. they are both fit and healthy after all and brush off colds with no problem and after their excema cleared up have had no other maladies.
hope you can help
j
first post, so be gentle!
so, we're all agreed that breastfeeding is best, but we all live in, to some greater or lesser degree, a very toxic environment.
we, my wife and i, have tried very hard to remove as many toxins from our lives as possible. after four years we have come to the conclusion that we will never be able to do this completely. noone makes a wooden computer for example. so we are resigned to doing all we can, and hope it is enough to give our children a better chance than most. we live in a small village in the french countryside, so good food and fairly clean air (unless someone can tell me otherwise). an old natural house except for a bit of cement. as little plastic as we can get away with. natural fibre clothes and bedding. no antibacterial cleaners and as few chemical cleaners as we think we can get away with. no more vaccines for the kids as we stopped after 6 months with our first and none at all for the second, now two. no pharmacuticals where possible, although this is an ongoing process to find natural remedies as an when needed. we do still have amalgam fillings and as yet no money to replace them. i'm sure we have fire retardants in the house as our furniture was purchased before our waking up!
we have a new arrival due in march and we would obviously like to continue the breastfeeding. we will not use commercial formula.
two questions:
what are the most important things to look at eradicating/improving for the most benefit to the newbie in march and us all in general?
any tips on finding an alternative comfort for our 2 year old as he still wants the breast at night?..(all through the night)! its driving us nuts and he wont take a dummy or a bottle.
our first took the bottle no problem (expressed milk) so after a year was happy with just that at night, with the dummy.....he still has both by the way, but we're working on that! but......we use cows milk. any simple ideas for a replacement for that, we used goats milk for a while, but it's really expensive. they both do also eat a good diet, so we're thinking (hoping) that overall they're not doing too bad. they are both fit and healthy after all and brush off colds with no problem and after their excema cleared up have had no other maladies.
hope you can help
j
Hi societe humaine,
Welcome to our forum. :)
We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.
You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.
Welcome to our forum. :)
We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.
You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.
This is a very interesting topic for me. My wife and I have a 16 month old and she is still nursing, once during the day and at night. She also co-sleeps with us at the moment.
My personal outlook is similar to Tree's perspective, at least that was the hope.
The thought goes that the child gets the antigens for illness's from the mother, so the child's immune system is stimulated, nutrients from the mother are given to the child and fat is given to the child as it is vitally important for brain develop. Also there are benefits for the mother in keeping the metabolism up, and emotional bonding.
As for the co-sleeping, it is a bonding experience that provides the child with a sense of security that they are in a safe environment and it is also a matter of convenience since, when nursing, nighttime is easier on the mother when co-sleeping.
So these are the ideals.
I am aware that fat is the storage place for all excess toxins stored in the body. This does present a dilemna. But in looking at this, the question becomes, what is the better option for fat intake at this age? Considering we live in the US, I am hesistant to suggest that animal fat or milk is a better option. Raw milk is nice idea...but we live in the US...this is close to illegal if not highly inconvenient for most populations.
As for the cons of co-sleeping it is entirely possible that the mother can form bonds that are unhealthy, and I can see glimpses of this in my wife...but there has to be some ability to form a mother/child bond that is unique...this feels important to me. But I can definitely see the need to actively cultivate the childs independence in this situation. And we do attempt to do this.
Our daughter appears to me to have a fierce sense of individuality which I am sure will grow. And she already decides when and if she wants to be nursed. I think she more nurses now for a sense of security and comfort as opposed to needing it for nutritional value.
Also if extended nursing is a disinformation campaign, from all accounts I see it as failing miserably. My daughter goes to a daycare of approximately 400 students (ages infant to 4 years old) and she is the only one still nursing. She went to a previous daycare, probably around 200 students (ages infant to 4 years old) and she was one of 2 kids who still had breastmilk, and this was when she was less then a year. So maybe this is an area of anomaly but extended nursing is the rarity here.
Now I will include that when our daughter first went to daycare she was sick for about six months straight, as were we (fun), but now she rarely gets sick, in fact my wife and i were sick for the past month and she never blinked an eye at us, she was fine the whole time. I can't say it will stay that way...but I attribute this to the breastfeeding (perhaps incorrectly, who knows).
I also have the belief that there are complex molecules in breastmilk that we simply don't understand. I would tend to believe that the complex molecules aide in adsorption and processing of nutrients and minerals in the developing infant and toddler. I wish I could prove that but I am sure literature in that regard is non-existent.
As for attack on the middle class, it's coming from every angle that it can in the US at the moment...from financial to emotional to entertainment to spiritual...it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they attempted to start attacks from infancy...
...and sure extended nursing is being promoted as the natural way to go...but wasn't it that way already 60 years or more ago? I understand that 30 years ago formula was the big thing, but before that I would expect the entire world to have been majorly breastfeeding. Maybe it wasn't, I can't believe that everyone 60 years or more ago had cows or goats to supplement with.
My last question here, so what if a child gets toxins from mother's milk...is there any such thing as a child detox diet? I know about ones for adults, but are these ok for children less then 2 years old? What are the options for very young children with respect to toxins?
My personal outlook is similar to Tree's perspective, at least that was the hope.
The thought goes that the child gets the antigens for illness's from the mother, so the child's immune system is stimulated, nutrients from the mother are given to the child and fat is given to the child as it is vitally important for brain develop. Also there are benefits for the mother in keeping the metabolism up, and emotional bonding.
As for the co-sleeping, it is a bonding experience that provides the child with a sense of security that they are in a safe environment and it is also a matter of convenience since, when nursing, nighttime is easier on the mother when co-sleeping.
So these are the ideals.
I am aware that fat is the storage place for all excess toxins stored in the body. This does present a dilemna. But in looking at this, the question becomes, what is the better option for fat intake at this age? Considering we live in the US, I am hesistant to suggest that animal fat or milk is a better option. Raw milk is nice idea...but we live in the US...this is close to illegal if not highly inconvenient for most populations.
As for the cons of co-sleeping it is entirely possible that the mother can form bonds that are unhealthy, and I can see glimpses of this in my wife...but there has to be some ability to form a mother/child bond that is unique...this feels important to me. But I can definitely see the need to actively cultivate the childs independence in this situation. And we do attempt to do this.
Our daughter appears to me to have a fierce sense of individuality which I am sure will grow. And she already decides when and if she wants to be nursed. I think she more nurses now for a sense of security and comfort as opposed to needing it for nutritional value.
Also if extended nursing is a disinformation campaign, from all accounts I see it as failing miserably. My daughter goes to a daycare of approximately 400 students (ages infant to 4 years old) and she is the only one still nursing. She went to a previous daycare, probably around 200 students (ages infant to 4 years old) and she was one of 2 kids who still had breastmilk, and this was when she was less then a year. So maybe this is an area of anomaly but extended nursing is the rarity here.
Now I will include that when our daughter first went to daycare she was sick for about six months straight, as were we (fun), but now she rarely gets sick, in fact my wife and i were sick for the past month and she never blinked an eye at us, she was fine the whole time. I can't say it will stay that way...but I attribute this to the breastfeeding (perhaps incorrectly, who knows).
I also have the belief that there are complex molecules in breastmilk that we simply don't understand. I would tend to believe that the complex molecules aide in adsorption and processing of nutrients and minerals in the developing infant and toddler. I wish I could prove that but I am sure literature in that regard is non-existent.
As for attack on the middle class, it's coming from every angle that it can in the US at the moment...from financial to emotional to entertainment to spiritual...it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they attempted to start attacks from infancy...
...and sure extended nursing is being promoted as the natural way to go...but wasn't it that way already 60 years or more ago? I understand that 30 years ago formula was the big thing, but before that I would expect the entire world to have been majorly breastfeeding. Maybe it wasn't, I can't believe that everyone 60 years or more ago had cows or goats to supplement with.
My last question here, so what if a child gets toxins from mother's milk...is there any such thing as a child detox diet? I know about ones for adults, but are these ok for children less then 2 years old? What are the options for very young children with respect to toxins?
