Please explain what any of this has to do with this topic?
Casiopians are here.
- Thread starter Jasophoria
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Please explain what any of this has to do with this topic?
Jasophoria, judging by your above post you seem to think that the problem here is whether we believe you. I don't think that's the main issue here. Even if those things did happen to you, the question of whether you could grasp or control such abilities in a manner that would make you a useful forum member would remain. And you haven't shown much evidence that this is in fact the case IMO.
I spent the last 9 years woking in an industry that attracts an unusually high percentage of autistic people, and that is Information Technology. Around 5-10% of our employees and contractors were on the autistic spectrum, as opposed to the country's average of 1% reported on this site which I found among government resources on this topic. Intellectually they were absolutely brilliant, above average intelligent, exceptionally talented, quick to learn, with vivid imagination.
However, their people skills required constant monitoring and as part of my role I spent a considerable amount of time preventing, addressing or resolving various issues that arose as a result of their limitations. Most of those difficulties seemed to be related to their lack of the theory of mind and many aspects of this exchange point to this as a possible root cause here too.
Over the years I developed quite a lot of understanding of the autistic spectrum and I saw no problem in hiring professionals with it if they were able to control their impulses. If managed correctly they usually made good employees.
However, whenever they showed tendency towards spiritually - or what's even worse, magical thinking - there were problems. For reasons I do not know, their minds simply aren't able to work with concepts of spirituality effectively enough and if they happened to wander off into the realm of magical thinking results were anywhere between difficult and disastrous for their team members and us as their employer.
Same thing goes for people with schizophrenia. In fact, I noticed certain similarities between "magically thinking" people on the autistic spectrum and schizophrenics.
This is just my personal experience but their brains and minds just don't seem to have the right infrastructure to cope with certain concepts in an effective manner.
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I am wondering why so many fellow members are expending there energy here on a conversation that can by default go nowhere. There is a thought form here that says white is black. That is all I see and I see no possibility of changing that reality. No one on either 'side' of the debate is necessarily right or wrong from where they stand. But bananas are not mountains. The C's said it was very important at this this stage for all souls in search of progress to conserve energy and not waste their time in fruitless activities that cannot succeed or deliver. This thread seems fast set on becoming one such example. Maybe its time to change the conversation to more prescient matters and allow this thread to stand as learning for those who come by from here on in - be they bananas or mountains and whatever the learning that so fits their schooling at this juncture. We all are exactly where we are meant to be right now.
My tuppence worth after reading 7 mind numbing pages.
My tuppence worth after reading 7 mind numbing pages.
Yes, but what she said has nothing to do with the topic. Encouraging someone to go off on a tangent, when that person has a tendency to do that, is not helpful to them or other members of the forum.
Would you say its also very difficult, or nigh impossible, to help them to see that?
Indeed. Looking back at the first post, it probably shouldn't have gone any further than pointing out a few basics and then leaving it at that. Maybe now is a good time to close it.
Yeah, "nigh impossible" is more like it. In fact, if it is possible I must say I have failed to achieve this.
To use a cooking analogy, such spices as cumin, garlic and marjoram would make a perfect addition to a meat-based dish, but when added to a strawberry cheesecake they'd make the end result rather unpalatable. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the cheesecake, or the spices. It just means that some things simply don't mix well.
And the same is true for people with autism or schizophrenia - and spirituality. In fact, from what I've seen their interest in spirituality pretty much by default results in magical thinking and grandiose opinion of themselves that just cannot be eradicated. You can manage the expression of such tendencies to some extent by managing their behaviour (mostly by excessive micromanagement, and administering rewards, threats and punishments), but you cannot change what they really think on the inside. A successful internal change would stop the external expression through behaviour and I've never seen that happen.
In other words, the best that can be achieved is management of symptoms, not the cause. Issues of most Working forum members can be traced back to childhood programming, cultural influences, trauma and upbringing. It's one thing to reprogram the 'software' or the brain, it's a whole different story to try to change the 'hardware' with tools we use on the forum. It's like trying to upload Windows 10 onto your broken microwave and hope for a good result.
In my personal experience, there are a number of practical reasons why the Work and the above mentioned mental disorders don't mix.
For most people on the autistic spectrum many interpersonal interactions are a struggle. The type we are talking about don't just think they're just different, they're deeply convinced they're special, gifted, or as one former autistic staff member of mine called it "more evolved".
Given that a common message on the forum is not to take ourselves too seriously and work on our self-importance, such tendencies are at conflict with the work done here, especially that from what I've seen, that sheshulness is usually near self-glorification, and glorofication of the disorder itself.
As Josaphoria stated in another thread:
Then there is the issue of oversensitivity. To many, if not most individuals with those disorders, their hurt feelings are a sign of superior sensitivity. To us here on the forum it is a sign of snowflakery and/or too much internal consideration. How do we reconcile those two if the former group does not want to let go of their speshulness - and it is us who should adjust?
Then there is the lack of the theory of mind I mentioned above. That lack makes grasping, embracing and actively living out external consideration impossible. Combine that with their grandiose opinion of themselves and you have a person who is fundamentally at odds with the forum principles and code of conduct.
That's another feature of people with Asperger's: they find it very difficult to stop talking about topics that interests them and this too is at odds with the concept of external consideration.
Those who have ever attempted to discuss concepts of spirituality in a face to face interaction with someone suffering from the above mentioned disorders probably noticed the visible intensity of their convictions. Heck, their facial expression often makes Ocasio-Cortez's crazy stare look like innocent puppy eyes in comparison!
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I can't speak for other participants' motivation but my own was largely connected to the fact that we've recently had quite a few new arrivals to the forum. There are probably some board lurkers still hesitating to take the plunge. The thread can serve as evidence, and hopefully warning, that not everyone who posts on the forum has everything figured out. And that caution is required.
I remember my own lurking years when I thought there was no point joining because I was never going to catch up with that amount of material to have anything useful to say. Everyone seemed so smart, I feared being the dumbest kid in class. And then I bumped into a few exchanges similar to this one. It made me realise that although I may never measure up to the smartest of forumites, there are people who don't seem to 'get it' and they are nevertheless treated kindly, even if the result is mutually beneficial parting ways. That guidance is patiently offered to help calibrate our thinking. And that there are also people who oversee the process of networking to make it safe for those who genuinely want to learn.
That said, I do agree that Josaphoria got more attention than she should have. She's not here to learn anything, but to get attention and admiration to feed her need for feeling special by having her specialness acknowledged and reflected back to her. That's not going to happen so it's best to move on to more useful threads.
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Hi Ant 22. Thanks for the above two posts - very valuable insights. Just so you know, I agree wholeheartedly that these threads, much as they are a struggle for everyone involved, they do offer huge learning and I certainly wasn't meaning to suggest it had been all in vain. My post was more meant as a 'enough is possibly enough now' simply because I thought I could detect increasing potential for stress for all those involved that was not going to lead to valuable resolution and mutual value - something that will become of increasing importance I suspect. And as your subsequent posts reveal, no one other than mods here should determine when enough is enough - as I say I personally really valued what you had to offer by way of added perspectives. Take care.
@Ant22, I'm deeply grateful for so many informations that you gave us related to autism & oversensitivity and how is impossible to do The Work for them.
I have ask my self why this thread is still going and why others waste their energy on it, but now I'm glad that they let it go which lead to the point when you explained many things which I didn't understand reading some of the posts here.
I have ask my self why this thread is still going and why others waste their energy on it, but now I'm glad that they let it go which lead to the point when you explained many things which I didn't understand reading some of the posts here.
Ant22, that was very well written and pretty much nails it.
We have two in our extended family in that spectrum, and it is liked you described them, without even knowing them, (maybe you are psychic
).
There is one quality that stands out from our experience, and that is that, they are never seemingly able to learn from their mistakes. I am always reminded of the saying, 'the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results.' We see that over and over again, and no amount of talking to them, or trying to help them does any good. It is like they are doing things right, but the world is doing it wrong... the world needs to change.
They can make friends easily, but 'wear' them out very quickly with their self-importance, and speshulness. You can kind of see that here, they wear out their welcome pretty fast. And then it is always the other guys fault.
Anyway, just a few thought...
We have two in our extended family in that spectrum, and it is liked you described them, without even knowing them, (maybe you are psychic
).There is one quality that stands out from our experience, and that is that, they are never seemingly able to learn from their mistakes. I am always reminded of the saying, 'the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results.' We see that over and over again, and no amount of talking to them, or trying to help them does any good. It is like they are doing things right, but the world is doing it wrong... the world needs to change.
They can make friends easily, but 'wear' them out very quickly with their self-importance, and speshulness. You can kind of see that here, they wear out their welcome pretty fast. And then it is always the other guys fault.
Anyway, just a few thought...
