Catalonia Independence Referendum - Democracy or Unity?

msante

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I'm sorry, I'm probably a little late for the conversation.

As far as I can understand, one of the central themes of this discussion is to establish the degree or proportion of genuineness of pro-independence protests. Clearly this is not an easy task.

In my opinion, in the absence of the ability to read people's minds and/or lack the virtue of clairvoyance, we can only speculate based on the recognition of patterns and our ability to connect information.

What patterns can we recognize that make us think of a manufactured protest?
  • The participation of Soros and its foundations: it seems a difficult task to prove through Internet searches whether this participation is materially significant or not; it is also not difficult to imagine that guys such as Soros have the capacity to finance various causes in a furtive or hidden way. Now many of us ask ourselves, why would he do it? Personally, I think it would seem silly to believe that Soros is the little eye at the top of the pyramid of the $1 bill. IMHO Soros is probably just looking to earn a lot of money to increase his power and consequently be in a position to earn a lot more money and then increase his power again... and etc. What motivates him? God knows! The important thing for me is that his presence alone sets off the first alarm.
  • The absence of a primary and massively accepted cause as the basis for the claim of independence: we see people demanding independence for a matter of regional/cultural pride, we see others demanding it for the fascism of the Spanish government, others find the penalty imposed on Catalan leaders unfair, and others want Spain to stop draining the pockets of the Catalans,... I imagine there must be at least half a dozen more reasons. Normally a spontaneous protest arises from a defined detonator and the slogans that they enunciate in the streets (at least at the beginning) tend to be uniform and cohesive. As far as I can see, this is not the case in the protests in Catalonia. It is true that the sentence to the Catalan leaders was the trigger, but after that event, at least for me, there is no main cause that unites all Catalans.
    In general, when I see a handful of largely unrelated causes that are all channelled under the same flag, I tend to suspect that someone/something behind is manipulating all these wills. Did the seed of separatism exist in all these people before? Well, possibly yes, but that seed might never have sprouted if a certain favourable "environment" had not been generated for this to happen. What is the probability that the favourable environment will be generated naturally for ONE seed to bloom? I would say it is reasonably high. What is the probability that several different favorable environments are naturally generated for 3,4...or N different seeds to flower at the same time? I would encourage myself to say that it is quite low.
  • The outbreaks of violence (perhaps provoked by a small group of people) that then trigger police repression and the consequent victimization of Protestants. We have seen this modus operandi too many times not to recognize it. Cutting streets, closing airports, destroying public space, normally forces the police to go out and repress; it is a maneuver almost as stupid as it is perfect, and 99% of the time it works.
What patterns can we recognize that make us think of a spontaneous protest?

To be honest, I don't find any significant. I had the opportunity to witness firsthand a protest with a good degree of spontaneity in my country in 2001, where millions of people in different parts of the country took to the streets to beat pots and pans demanding that the president resign. There was no violence, there was no looting, and the slogan was practically a single one, "Everyone get out!" (referring to the political class). I don't see anything in the protests in Catalonia that makes me think of anything like this.

As far as ideology is concerned it's also worth mentioning that Spain is one of the most Christian countries in the world, that alone is probably enough to trigger the wrath of Mammon and its materialist emissaries.
I think this is no small matter. Spain is (perhaps along with Hispanic America) the last bastion of Catholicism (albeit in symbolic terms) and possibly at this point the only reservoir of the values of early Christianity. IMHO the fall of the Spanish Empire meant the substitution of these spiritually valuable legacy by a pragmatic moral, empty and based on material progress. The destruction of Spain is perhaps the last (maybe at a symbolic level too) step in stripping the human race of that divine connection that makes possible, at least in potential terms, the development of human consciousness.
 

Anthony

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The other thing to consider here, from a broader perspective, is the number of protests occurring in recent weeks around the world. Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Ecuador, Chile, France (yellow vests and more recently fire service members) 'extinction rebellion' (everywhere). So there seems to be something 'in the air' these days that is motivated, at least in part, by something that is not limited to any specific grievance, but rather specific grievances are being used to give vent to some other kind of collective 'angst'.
Yeah, it's quite something. I was thinking about feedback loops as talked about in Earth Changes book, that is, mass unrest feeding into climate chaos and vice verse. So it looks like we're in for a rough period as we enter a new decade.
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Spain is (perhaps along with Hispanic America) the last bastion of Catholicism (albeit in symbolic terms) and possibly at this point the only reservoir of the values of early Christianity. IMHO the fall of the Spanish Empire meant the substitution of these spiritually valuable legacy by a pragmatic moral, empty and based on material progress. The destruction of Spain is perhaps the last (maybe at a symbolic level too) step in stripping the human race of that divine connection that makes possible, at least in potential terms, the development of human consciousness.
Portugal is very very Catholic, maybe more then Spain I think so.
 

msante

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Portugal is very very Catholic, maybe more then Spain I think so.
Maybe, and maybe even there are other countries that in terms of religious practice classify as "more Catholic" than current Spain. But in historical terms, the dominant position that Spain had as an empire for more than 300 years (including at times its dominion over Portugal itself) and as heir to the Roman order, Greek philosophy and Christianity, have a gravitational force and a sphere of influence derived from the conquered territories, that INHO puts it in a position unique and far superior to that of Portugal.
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I don't k[now if you know about a group called "Tsunami Democratic"?
Clandestine 'tsunami' behind new wave of Catalan protests

With an appeal to block Barcelona's airport, a new, mysterious organisation called "Democratic Tsunami" has raised the temperature of Catalan separatist protests in Spain which until now have been peaceful.

The leaders of the movement remain unknown, using social media and encrypted messaging apps to rally thousands of supporters on Monday against jail terms meted out to nine separatist leaders over their role in a failed 2017 secession bid.

Some 10,000 people, according to Spain's interior ministry, blocked access to Barcelona airport for several hours on Monday, heeding widespread calls on social media to "Turn Catalonia into the new Hong Kong".




It was the most disruptive protest held to date by the modern Catalan separatist movement: 110 flights were cancelled and 115 people were injured during clashes with police.

"This is just the beginning, we have to prepare for what is coming and ensure the democratic tsunami is unstoppable," the group wrote in a tweet late Monday after the airport protest made headlines around the world.

The tone contrasts with the festive style of the first mass pro-independence rallies staged nearly a decade ago by influential grass-roots separatist associations ANC and Omnium which dubbed their movement the "revolution of smiles".

- 'Urban guerrilla war' -

But after the failure of the 2017 separatist bid which culminated with a banned referendum followed by a declaration of independence, a part of the separatist camp understood that "this revolution of smiles did not end well", said historian and political analyst Joan Esculies.

"The Democratic Tsunami wants to lead a sort of urban guerrilla war with one-off actions," he added.

Caught off guard by the size of the airport protest, Spain's media and central government are looking into who is behind the new movement.

"I have no doubt we will end up finding out who's behind Democratic Tsunami," Spanish Interior Minister Fernando Grande-Marlaska told public radio RNE on Tuesday.

The group first appeared on social media in September as a campaign to mobilise separatists ahead of the Supreme Court's verdicts in the trial of the separatist leaders on the basis of "civil disobedience" and a "non-violent struggle".

Its creation came a day after several separatist leaders met in Switzerland, including Catalonia's former regional president Carles Puigdemont, raising suspicion that the movement was created by Catalan separatist parties.

Democratic Tsunami strongly denies it.

- Guardiola support -

The movement "brings together people of different sensibilities... but it is not controlled by any entity or party. Even if they are informed of how it is structured," one of its organisers told AFP.

The leaders of the movement usually issue their directions to supporters through Russian-designed encrypted messaging service Telegram, where they have 150,000 followers.

The movement on Monday launched its own mobile app to distribute messages. To use it a QR, or quick response code, is needed and it can only be obtained from a member of the organisation.

It also put its name to a video message recorded in English by Manchester City football club's Catalan coach, Pep Guardiola, in which he accused Spain of drifting "towards authoritarianism".

In its tweet, the group said Guardiola's statement had been broadcast by AFP, which is not true.

The group also launched an appeal to block Madrid airport with 1,200 vehicles and claimed that the operation was a success although Spanish airport authority AENA and other officials said there was no disruption.
Source : Clandestine 'tsunami' behind new wave of Catalan protests
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Yes the media are biased pretty much all the time. The question then is "what way are they biased?". The difference in media coverage between the Yellow Vest movement and the Independence movement is telling. As I wrote in a previous post:
The official media here is telling us that all these violent young in Barcelona are "independentistas". So they are telling us that independentistas are violent.It is not true. These young are not representatives of the independentistas of Catalonia. And the media do not stop to tell us this. Minute after minute in a sort of mantra. So when you talk to people on the street (I do this, I love to talk to people) they say that Catalans are violent and crazy. And if the person is old enough he tells me that Spain needs a new Franco to stop all this non-sense in Catalonia. :scared:

Memory is short.
 
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thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
As far as ideology is concerned it's also worth mentioning that Spain is one of the most Christian countries in the world, that alone is probably enough to trigger the wrath of Mammon and its materialist emissaries.
Northern Spain, though more to the middle and the west is famous for the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela the capital of the autonomous community of Galicia, in northwestern Spain. Not related, except on a symbolic level, but I couldn't help notice that the protests in Chile and the ensuing riots broke out in Santiago.
 

c.a.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Warzone Barcelona.

Here the Spanish interior minister who says that "THE MONOPOLY OF VIOLENCE HAS THE STATE" ...... could not agree more.

Videographer J Rogue was targeted by two shots during a night event in Barcelona. The taboo of the #libertédelapresse does not scare the Spanish state any more than the French state.


Here you have the beast of European diplomacy

Hello Catalan friends: go on that we will beat you because we live in an exemplary democracy
 

Alejo

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
And then there's this:


400.000 people marched against the independence. Think of the powder keg that two opposing factions can create if they can all summon close to half a million people.

We have seen this elsewhere, in Venezuela for instance, there's massive protests against Maduro and then they call for their own massive protests pro Maduro. Some get reported, some don't. But the point I think is, imagine the massive polarization if hundreds of thousands of people are willing to take time out of their day to march against someone else.
 

Ariadna

Jedi
FOTCM Member
I've a lot of sympathy for Catalans too. I remember how the last French Cathars escaped French inquisition and found shelter in Spanish Cataluniya. Belibaste was one of them. On both sides of the French-Spanish borders, they shared the same languages, genes and heresy.

I think that those genetic and socio-cultural specifics are still there, albeit diluted. Though I'm wondering if the socio-cultural factors i.e. identity, are the main motivators of the current independence movement. After all, Catalunian culture is alive and well. I've been in Barcelona for two weeks now and seen plenty of Catalan-only schools, Catalan language everywhere, Catalan culture widely displayed.

When I talk to locals, it seems the prime reason for supporting independence is not cultural/social but economic, basically they say 'we are a rich region, if we become independent, I'll get more money at the end of the month'.

I can't blame people for thinking this way especially when you know the high cost of living in Barcelona. But, would the indepenence increase workers wage? I'm not sure about it.

So it seems that some Catalunyans do want independence, mostly for economic reasons. Now is that all? Are we witnessing a purely grassroots movement?



That is so true. I witnessed this process first hand. My current stay in Barcelona is not the first one. In 2000-2010, I was a manager in high-tech industries located in Marseille region. One of our funding was FEDER, a European fund (dozens of billions of euros) mostly dedicated to support the development and international cooperation of European regions.

That is, as a representative of Marseille region, I could NOT cooperate with other French regions (despite our cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic proximity and hence potential synergies). Instead I was cooperating with Barcelona region (Spain), Milan region (Italy) and Porto region (Portugal).

What I noticed during those years of European projects and professional trips to Barcelona is how much privilege and connections Barcelona had with Europe. Although FEDER is supposed to re-balance regions wealth, and Barcelona was the richest of the four of us, Barcelona was systematically getting the most funding, the leadership and the less work. For years, European money has been poured in Catalunya.

Ten years later, I can see that the European projects for Barcelona were fruitful. Today, Barcelona is a modern, rich, economically independent region. Economically, Catalunya doesn't need Spain anymore, quite the contrary.

The project for a federal Europe is even older than Europe. It aims to replace old European nation-states by a federation of European regions. From a EU perspective a federation makes sense, the less power and sovereignty to the nation-states, the more power to Bruxelles non-elected technocrats.

But I don't think European policies are only designed to maximize power of European leaders. Behind this war against nation-states there is a clear ideology, where Catalunya, Madrid and Brussels 'leaders' are just pawns.

Creo que esta es la buena camarilla materialista, globalista, individualista y depredadora que está moviendo los hilos. Y los estados-nación son uno de los últimos obstáculos que se interponen en el camino de su agenda. Aunque los estados-nación se basan en la violencia y los mitos, Roger Scruton describe el papel esencial que desempeñan los estados-nación ( vale la pena leer todo el artículo ):



A la luz de las palabras de Scruton, ¿no es trágico presenciar a varios catalanes abrazar la independencia por razones económicas? ¿Abandonando la comunidad nacional por la "libertad" mientras la comunidad nacional era su último escudo contra la depredación que creen que están escapando?

Entonces, ¿España será la nueva Yugoslavia? En cualquier caso, vemos el mismo tipo de personas que desintegraron a Yugoslavia en el trabajo en España (ver este artículo que escribí en 2018). Vemos a Soros y compañía. quien se infiltró profundamente en la UE y extendió su agenda federalista sin fronteras. Soros y compañía. en la cama con el movimiento antifa que juega un papel importante en los disturbios actuales.

La diferencia entre el movimiento Yellow Vest VS Catalunya es sorprendente. Un movimiento de base VS movimientos coordinados (signos idénticos hechos profesionalmente, marchas concomitantes a Barcelona, manifestaciones cronometradas), un movimiento profundamente reprimido VS un movimiento mayormente tolerado, un movimiento nacional y social VS un movimiento local y mayormente económico ...

Pero la diferencia más llamativa es probablemente el tratamiento mediático (incluyendo en gran medida RT) donde los chalecos amarillos fueron descritos como violentos, ilegítimos, menores, disruptivos, manipulados, infiltrados, mientras que el movimiento de Independencia se describe como pacífico, importante, legítimo, independiente.

En lo que respeta a la ideología, también vale la pena lo que menciona España es uno de los países más cristianos del mundo , eso solo probablemente sea suficiente para desencadenar la ira de Mamón y sus emisores materialistas.

Parafraseando a Benjamin Franklin, "" Aquellos que abandonarían la comunidad nacional, para comprar un poco de riqueza temporal, no obtendrán ni comunidad nacional ni riqueza. "
[/ CITAR]
I've a lot of sympathy for Catalans too. I remember how the last French Cathars escaped French inquisition and found shelter in Spanish Cataluniya. Belibaste was one of them. On both sides of the French-Spanish borders, they shared the same languages, genes and heresy.

I think that those genetic and socio-cultural specifics are still there, albeit diluted. Though I'm wondering if the socio-cultural factors i.e. identity, are the main motivators of the current independence movement. After all, Catalunian culture is alive and well. I've been in Barcelona for two weeks now and seen plenty of Catalan-only schools, Catalan language everywhere, Catalan culture widely displayed.

When I talk to locals, it seems the prime reason for supporting independence is not cultural/social but economic, basically they say 'we are a rich region, if we become independent, I'll get more money at the end of the month'.

I can't blame people for thinking this way especially when you know the high cost of living in Barcelona. But, would the indepenence increase workers wage? I'm not sure about it.

So it seems that some Catalunyans do want independence, mostly for economic reasons. Now is that all? Are we witnessing a purely grassroots movement?



That is so true. I witnessed this process first hand. My current stay in Barcelona is not the first one. In 2000-2010, I was a manager in high-tech industries located in Marseille region. One of our funding was FEDER, a European fund (dozens of billions of euros) mostly dedicated to support the development and international cooperation of European regions.

That is, as a representative of Marseille region, I could NOT cooperate with other French regions (despite our cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic proximity and hence potential synergies). Instead I was cooperating with Barcelona region (Spain), Milan region (Italy) and Porto region (Portugal).

What I noticed during those years of European projects and professional trips to Barcelona is how much privilege and connections Barcelona had with Europe. Although FEDER is supposed to re-balance regions wealth, and Barcelona was the richest of the four of us, Barcelona was systematically getting the most funding, the leadership and the less work. For years, European money has been poured in Catalunya.

Ten years later, I can see that the European projects for Barcelona were fruitful. Today, Barcelona is a modern, rich, economically independent region. Economically, Catalunya doesn't need Spain anymore, quite the contrary.

The project for a federal Europe is even older than Europe. It aims to replace old European nation-states by a federation of European regions. From a EU perspective a federation makes sense, the less power and sovereignty to the nation-states, the more power to Bruxelles non-elected technocrats.

But I don't think European policies are only designed to maximize power of European leaders. Behind this war against nation-states there is a clear ideology, where Catalunya, Madrid and Brussels 'leaders' are just pawns.

I think this is the good same old materialist, globalist, individualist, predatory clique that is pulling the strings. And nation-states are one of the last obstacle standing in the way of their agenda. Although nation-states are built upon violence and myths, Roger Scruton describes the essential role played by nation-states (the whole article is worth reading):



In light of Scruton words, isn't it tragic to witness a number of Catalunyans embracing independence for economic reasons? Ditching the national community for 'freedom' while the national community was their last shield against the very predation they think they are escaping?

So, will Spain be the new Yugoslavia? In any case, we see the same kind of individuals who disintegrated Yugoslavia at work in Spain (see this article I wrote in 2018). We see Soros and co. who deeply infiltrated the EU and spread its federalist border-free agenda. Soros and co. in bed with the antifa movement who play a major role in the current riots.

The difference between the Yellow Vest VS Catalunya movement is striking. A grassroots movement VS coordinated movements (identical professionaly made signs, concomitant marches to Barcelona, timed demonstrations), a deeply repressed movement VS a mostly tolerated movement, a national and social movement VS a local and mostly economic movement...

But the most striking difference is probably the media treatment (including to most extent RT) where the Yellow Vests were described as violent, illegitimate, minor, disruptive, manipulated, infiltrated while the Independence movement is described as peaceful, major, legitimate, independent.

As far as ideology is concerned it's also worth mentioning that Spain is one of the most Christian countries in the world, that alone is probably enough to trigger the wrath of Mammon and its materialist emissaries.

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, " "Those who would give up national community, to purchase a little temporary wealth, will get neither national community nor wealth. "
Rereading the thread, I recite this post to endorse that I agree with what has been said and summarize the idea that all this Catalan independence movement is part of the agenda to take Spain to a federal state as a way to weaken the Spanish nation and make it more manageable and exploitable yet, for financial elites and the purported New world order.

Maybe if Spain, the oldest nation in Europe falls on this path, others will follow. After the 10N elections, its result and everything I am reading, seeing and hearing in debates, interviews, "thinkers", "experts", "journalists", politicians all together points to this. The words federalism, federal state, plurinationality, dialogue, search for solutions, modify the constitution to allow self-determination referendums, look for other ways ... Everything aims to create the problem now, and then put the solution. I think that both the independence movement and the rest of Spanish citizens are being manipulated.

Regarding if Soros has or wants to have more interests in Spain, I found this.


Rereading the thread, I recite this post to frame and endorse that I agree with what has been said and summarize the idea that all this Catalan independence movement is part of the agenda to take Spain to a federal state as a way to weaken the Spanish nation and make it more manageable and exploitable yet, for financial elites and the purported New world order. Maybe if Spain, the oldest nation in Europe falls on this path, others will follow. After the 10N elections, its result and everything I am reading, seeing and hearing in debates, interviews, "thinkers", "experts", "journalists", politicians all together points to this. The words federalism, federal state, plurinationality, dialogue, search for solutions, modify the constitution to allow self-determination referendums, look for other ways ... Everything aims to create the problem now, and then put the solution. I think that both the independence movement and the rest of Spanish citizens are being manipulated.

Regarding if Soros has or wants to have more interests in Spain, I found this. From this journalist and writer I have read his book, "Los planes del club Bilderberg para España" (The plans of the Bilderberg club for Spain), and now reading "Los amos del mundo están al acecho" (The masters of the world are on the prowl). Possibly nothing new, but in case someone reads them and wants to comment. I found them very interesting.
 

Ariadna

Jedi
FOTCM Member
Today through suggestions of reading by Amazon, possibly by the purchase of the books mentioned in the previous post, I have seen the book, "Soros, rompiendo España" (Soros breaking Spain), Juan Antonio de Castro.
I searched about the author and found this video. An interview for an online radio program, of which I had never known anything before.


The author comments on the issue of blaming Russia for interference in matters of Spain as a maneuver diverting attention from actual interference or something, and along with a journalist, he says that he has tracked Soros' finances and contacts with entities, politicians and people in Catalonia and Spain.

Recently It has jumped into the media, the arrest of two alleged Russian spies (maybe counter-spies or puppets) in Barcelona. An example:

.
 
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